1 00:00:06,667 --> 00:00:10,547 Speaker 1: You're listening to the Weekend Sport podcast with Jason Vine 2 00:00:10,707 --> 00:00:11,747 Speaker 1: from Newstalk ZEDB. 3 00:00:12,907 --> 00:00:15,467 Speaker 2: Let's move. The biannual T twenty Cricket World Cup is 4 00:00:15,467 --> 00:00:18,467 Speaker 2: a week away. It starts next Saturday in India. How 5 00:00:18,547 --> 00:00:21,867 Speaker 2: much cut through does this particular tournament get in an 6 00:00:21,907 --> 00:00:26,027 Speaker 2: increasingly crowded cricketing calendar and how does a T twenty 7 00:00:26,067 --> 00:00:29,627 Speaker 2: World Cup compare to I guess what is historically the 8 00:00:29,667 --> 00:00:34,147 Speaker 2: more important fifty over World Cup. Martin Snedden played twenty 9 00:00:34,227 --> 00:00:37,467 Speaker 2: five Test matches ninety three One day internationals for New 10 00:00:37,587 --> 00:00:41,747 Speaker 2: Zealand during a first class career that stretched across thirteen summers. 11 00:00:41,747 --> 00:00:46,027 Speaker 2: He then became one of our foremost sporting administrators, leading 12 00:00:46,107 --> 00:00:50,187 Speaker 2: several large scale projects and holding senior positions including CEO 13 00:00:50,307 --> 00:00:52,747 Speaker 2: of New Zealand Cricket from two thousand and one to 14 00:00:52,747 --> 00:00:55,427 Speaker 2: two thousand and seven. He was also CEO of the 15 00:00:55,467 --> 00:00:59,547 Speaker 2: twenty eleven Rugby World Cup. Martin Snedden is with us. Martin, 16 00:00:59,587 --> 00:01:01,107 Speaker 2: thanks for taking the time for a chat. The T 17 00:01:01,107 --> 00:01:05,067 Speaker 2: twenty World Cup played every two years, It's coming up shortly. 18 00:01:05,107 --> 00:01:07,987 Speaker 2: How do you assess it? Some portants in the cricketing 19 00:01:08,107 --> 00:01:11,907 Speaker 2: landscape to international players, to broadcast. As to sponsors and 20 00:01:12,187 --> 00:01:17,307 Speaker 2: to cricket fans. 21 00:01:15,507 --> 00:01:17,747 Speaker 3: It's a difficult one. You know, I'm not I'm a 22 00:01:17,787 --> 00:01:19,787 Speaker 3: bit of a traditionalist and I'm not a great fan 23 00:01:19,827 --> 00:01:24,347 Speaker 3: of the T twenty stuff. And I think one of 24 00:01:24,387 --> 00:01:29,787 Speaker 3: the hugest risks that cricket is facing is saturation. So 25 00:01:30,027 --> 00:01:32,707 Speaker 3: you know, the fans are constantly switching from one event 26 00:01:32,787 --> 00:01:36,187 Speaker 3: to another, players are switching from team to team. You know, 27 00:01:36,227 --> 00:01:39,347 Speaker 3: you might have one of our best New Zealand tea 28 00:01:39,387 --> 00:01:41,707 Speaker 3: twenty players might play for say six teams in a 29 00:01:41,747 --> 00:01:45,187 Speaker 3: calendar year. So it's a little bit difficult to get excited, 30 00:01:45,467 --> 00:01:50,667 Speaker 3: I think when that sort of stuff happening, don't I 31 00:01:50,747 --> 00:01:53,627 Speaker 3: don't personally think that the T twenty World Cup is 32 00:01:53,667 --> 00:01:58,187 Speaker 3: as important as say the ODIs are certainly tes snatches, 33 00:01:58,907 --> 00:02:01,947 Speaker 3: but what I do recognize is that T twenty has 34 00:02:02,027 --> 00:02:05,547 Speaker 3: become the vehicle around the world for the growth of cricket, 35 00:02:06,347 --> 00:02:09,827 Speaker 3: that it is a format that probably is a lot 36 00:02:09,867 --> 00:02:14,987 Speaker 3: more attractive to younger people than the two other formats, 37 00:02:15,267 --> 00:02:19,787 Speaker 3: and therefore it has an important part play. I think 38 00:02:19,827 --> 00:02:22,787 Speaker 3: it would be great if the T twenty World Cup 39 00:02:22,827 --> 00:02:25,987 Speaker 3: could just be once every four years, And you know, 40 00:02:26,067 --> 00:02:30,747 Speaker 3: the ODI World Cup only occurs once every four years 41 00:02:30,747 --> 00:02:35,267 Speaker 3: and therefore has some degree of scarcity value, which which 42 00:02:35,347 --> 00:02:38,827 Speaker 3: is really good. But the Tea Twining World Cup doesn't 43 00:02:38,907 --> 00:02:42,827 Speaker 3: quite have that so well answer Jay, Sorry, but I'm 44 00:02:42,827 --> 00:02:43,467 Speaker 3: not a great. 45 00:02:43,307 --> 00:02:45,387 Speaker 2: Fan of it, to be honest, No good, good answer. 46 00:02:45,507 --> 00:02:47,187 Speaker 2: It talks to the point that I think a lot 47 00:02:47,227 --> 00:02:50,667 Speaker 2: of people have zeroed in on, and that is saturation. 48 00:02:50,867 --> 00:02:54,067 Speaker 2: I mean, in the week past we've had another franchise 49 00:02:54,147 --> 00:02:57,707 Speaker 2: league announced up in Europe with Ireland, Scotland and the 50 00:02:57,747 --> 00:03:01,267 Speaker 2: Netherlands that scheduled to start in September. Is there a 51 00:03:01,347 --> 00:03:05,867 Speaker 2: point at which this utter saturation of T twenty franchise 52 00:03:05,947 --> 00:03:08,387 Speaker 2: cricket will become unsustainable? 53 00:03:09,827 --> 00:03:14,027 Speaker 3: Well, I think that points past. I think there's way 54 00:03:14,067 --> 00:03:18,987 Speaker 3: too much. And it's not just the franchise cricket, because 55 00:03:19,027 --> 00:03:24,147 Speaker 3: there's a reason franchise crecket exists, and to some extent 56 00:03:24,147 --> 00:03:27,427 Speaker 3: it's been successful in different parts of the world. But 57 00:03:27,507 --> 00:03:31,227 Speaker 3: it's just the total amount of cricket played and the 58 00:03:31,307 --> 00:03:36,107 Speaker 3: fact that one week you're talking about T twenty franchise stuff, 59 00:03:36,107 --> 00:03:38,067 Speaker 3: the next week it's a T twenty World Cup, the 60 00:03:38,107 --> 00:03:40,787 Speaker 3: next you might be ode Ey's you know, black Cats 61 00:03:40,827 --> 00:03:44,227 Speaker 3: just had a really successful ODII series in India and 62 00:03:44,267 --> 00:03:49,227 Speaker 3: then somehow Test cricket gets fitted in around that. People 63 00:03:49,267 --> 00:03:51,907 Speaker 3: just can't keep up with that and they don't want to, 64 00:03:52,427 --> 00:03:56,627 Speaker 3: and I think it's undermining the value of cricket not 65 00:03:56,787 --> 00:04:02,027 Speaker 3: to have much greater cohesion to the cricket calendar. But unfortunately, 66 00:04:02,067 --> 00:04:05,587 Speaker 3: I think that horse has bolted. I think that's something 67 00:04:06,467 --> 00:04:11,627 Speaker 3: that should have been worked on ten years ago, and 68 00:04:12,107 --> 00:04:15,427 Speaker 3: you know, we might have ended up with something hell 69 00:04:15,427 --> 00:04:18,707 Speaker 3: of a lot more palatable I think the most crack 70 00:04:18,787 --> 00:04:21,907 Speaker 3: of hans would want. But you know, at the moment, 71 00:04:21,947 --> 00:04:25,187 Speaker 3: it's a bit of an uncontrolled beast. So we just 72 00:04:25,267 --> 00:04:27,227 Speaker 3: have to accept that they're going to crop up here, 73 00:04:27,267 --> 00:04:30,227 Speaker 3: they're going to crop up there. Some players will go here, 74 00:04:30,307 --> 00:04:33,107 Speaker 3: some players will go there. They'll get paid well, which 75 00:04:33,187 --> 00:04:37,507 Speaker 3: is a good thing. Got on the end, does it 76 00:04:37,547 --> 00:04:39,747 Speaker 3: really add to the total value of cricket, I'm not 77 00:04:39,787 --> 00:04:40,587 Speaker 3: so sure about that. 78 00:04:41,227 --> 00:04:45,427 Speaker 2: Can we rain in the bolted horse or or has 79 00:04:45,467 --> 00:04:48,747 Speaker 2: it gone? You know it would I guess require some 80 00:04:48,827 --> 00:04:51,427 Speaker 2: of these franchise leagues to stop operating to free out 81 00:04:51,507 --> 00:04:53,827 Speaker 2: parts of the calendar so that we could have more 82 00:04:53,827 --> 00:04:56,907 Speaker 2: structure around it. Can you see a scenario under which 83 00:04:56,947 --> 00:04:58,107 Speaker 2: that could happen. 84 00:04:58,667 --> 00:05:03,427 Speaker 3: No, And I did my best about three or four 85 00:05:03,507 --> 00:05:06,147 Speaker 3: years ago when I was an ICC director, firstly to 86 00:05:06,147 --> 00:05:11,747 Speaker 3: get the ICC board authorized me to try and do 87 00:05:11,907 --> 00:05:15,307 Speaker 3: something about this, and so for nine months or so 88 00:05:16,507 --> 00:05:19,227 Speaker 3: I worked pretty hard to try and gather people in 89 00:05:19,427 --> 00:05:22,547 Speaker 3: to try and get support to come up with a 90 00:05:22,787 --> 00:05:27,027 Speaker 3: cohesive calendar. But in the end it got completely squashed 91 00:05:27,667 --> 00:05:32,307 Speaker 3: by the ICC members. And the reason for that was 92 00:05:32,467 --> 00:05:35,827 Speaker 3: that when it came to the crunch, a lot of 93 00:05:35,827 --> 00:05:40,307 Speaker 3: the franchises are owned by the national boards, and the 94 00:05:40,427 --> 00:05:45,427 Speaker 3: national boards were not prepared to compromise on their own 95 00:05:46,147 --> 00:05:51,787 Speaker 3: keep twining competitions for the greater good. So basically the 96 00:05:51,867 --> 00:05:56,587 Speaker 3: attempt failed miserably and that's what I'm really sad about that. 97 00:05:57,827 --> 00:06:00,267 Speaker 3: So no, I don't think it can be rained back in. 98 00:06:01,147 --> 00:06:04,067 Speaker 3: And also, on top of this, some of these franchises 99 00:06:04,107 --> 00:06:06,627 Speaker 3: have got nothing to do with national boards. So they 100 00:06:06,667 --> 00:06:10,947 Speaker 3: are commercial opportunities that investors have seen, and they're not 101 00:06:10,987 --> 00:06:14,867 Speaker 3: going to be dictated to by ICC or national boards. 102 00:06:14,867 --> 00:06:17,267 Speaker 3: They're just going to set themselves up and they're going 103 00:06:17,307 --> 00:06:20,987 Speaker 3: to offer opportunities to players, and more and more now 104 00:06:21,187 --> 00:06:25,147 Speaker 3: players are choosing to take those opportunities and often to 105 00:06:25,227 --> 00:06:30,827 Speaker 3: sacrifice their international careers in order to chase those opportunities. 106 00:06:31,307 --> 00:06:37,427 Speaker 3: They are on short career spans. The money usually is 107 00:06:37,547 --> 00:06:41,547 Speaker 3: pretty reasonable and so it's really hard to blame them 108 00:06:42,067 --> 00:06:44,667 Speaker 3: for tasing those opportunities. But when you put the whole 109 00:06:44,707 --> 00:06:48,107 Speaker 3: thing together, I don't think it adds up to something 110 00:06:48,187 --> 00:06:49,307 Speaker 3: that's really great for Covent. 111 00:06:50,027 --> 00:06:52,187 Speaker 2: Just on that. Now that there are more and more 112 00:06:52,227 --> 00:06:55,747 Speaker 2: of these franchise legs, there are organizations which have teams 113 00:06:56,267 --> 00:06:58,667 Speaker 2: in multiple T twenty leagus. I look at Trent Bolt 114 00:06:58,667 --> 00:07:01,787 Speaker 2: for an example, with Mumbai. He plays in the South 115 00:07:01,787 --> 00:07:04,947 Speaker 2: African competition Start of the airplace. The IBL might go 116 00:07:05,027 --> 00:07:07,587 Speaker 2: and play in one hundred and in the UK at 117 00:07:07,587 --> 00:07:09,787 Speaker 2: the back end of the year in another franchise competition. 118 00:07:10,187 --> 00:07:11,667 Speaker 2: Is this going to become more and more common? Do 119 00:07:11,667 --> 00:07:13,867 Speaker 2: you think, Martin that you know that an organization will 120 00:07:13,907 --> 00:07:16,427 Speaker 2: employ a player and then say, right, you're playing for 121 00:07:16,467 --> 00:07:18,867 Speaker 2: four or five or more of our teams across the 122 00:07:18,907 --> 00:07:19,547 Speaker 2: calendar year. 123 00:07:20,187 --> 00:07:23,547 Speaker 3: Yes, and as you said, it's just starting to happen. 124 00:07:23,627 --> 00:07:28,467 Speaker 3: But what's happening is a lot of the IPO franchises 125 00:07:28,587 --> 00:07:32,947 Speaker 3: or some of them are leading this expansion. So you 126 00:07:33,027 --> 00:07:37,707 Speaker 3: might take the Mumbai Indians IPO franchise, which then take 127 00:07:37,747 --> 00:07:40,667 Speaker 3: the team in the South African competition, take the team 128 00:07:41,507 --> 00:07:44,787 Speaker 3: in the one hundred. I think they've purchased a controlling 129 00:07:44,907 --> 00:07:49,547 Speaker 3: right in the Surrey one hundred team and that's been 130 00:07:49,587 --> 00:07:56,187 Speaker 3: renamed Mumbai Indians something or rather for this coming season, 131 00:07:56,467 --> 00:07:59,267 Speaker 3: and so that's just happening, and they are gradually spreading 132 00:08:00,107 --> 00:08:03,947 Speaker 3: their wings around the world. So it's you know, it's 133 00:08:04,027 --> 00:08:08,347 Speaker 3: just me. It's the influence of the Indian money in cricket, 134 00:08:08,427 --> 00:08:13,347 Speaker 3: which has great upsides for a lot of countries, including 135 00:08:13,387 --> 00:08:18,027 Speaker 3: New Zealand, but also which involves sort of an expansion 136 00:08:18,987 --> 00:08:24,867 Speaker 3: program which is gradually eating away at the the sovereignty 137 00:08:24,947 --> 00:08:27,467 Speaker 3: I think of a lot of cricket nations. 138 00:08:27,867 --> 00:08:30,347 Speaker 2: The other thing that's happening, and England's a great example 139 00:08:30,347 --> 00:08:33,427 Speaker 2: of this. Their domestic fifty over competition is played, as 140 00:08:33,427 --> 00:08:36,747 Speaker 2: I understand it, at the same time as the one hundred, 141 00:08:36,867 --> 00:08:39,707 Speaker 2: so so players have been picked to play One day 142 00:08:39,707 --> 00:08:43,867 Speaker 2: Internationals for England play very little fifty over cricket domestically. 143 00:08:43,907 --> 00:08:46,267 Speaker 2: They're really t twenty players who put into the fifty 144 00:08:46,307 --> 00:08:48,267 Speaker 2: over side and it's kind of been reflected in their 145 00:08:48,307 --> 00:08:51,427 Speaker 2: results of it. I guess it stands to reason that 146 00:08:51,427 --> 00:08:54,707 Speaker 2: that will continue that when fifty over cricket has played, 147 00:08:54,707 --> 00:08:58,267 Speaker 2: there'll be far fewer fifty over specialists. 148 00:08:59,187 --> 00:09:04,987 Speaker 3: Yep, that's happening as well. And you're finding that odi 149 00:09:05,067 --> 00:09:08,147 Speaker 3: there is fifty over series have just been poked in 150 00:09:08,267 --> 00:09:13,307 Speaker 3: here and there whenever there's a gap. There's no reason 151 00:09:13,507 --> 00:09:15,987 Speaker 3: for it, rhyme and reason that you can make out. 152 00:09:16,027 --> 00:09:19,307 Speaker 3: It's just simply that there's a gap to throw this 153 00:09:19,387 --> 00:09:22,947 Speaker 3: stuff into. So the crik administrators throw it into it 154 00:09:23,667 --> 00:09:30,547 Speaker 3: and away they go. But it's really difficult for some 155 00:09:30,627 --> 00:09:34,427 Speaker 3: of these players now to work out what their future 156 00:09:34,947 --> 00:09:38,387 Speaker 3: should look like. A lot of them have grown up 157 00:09:38,467 --> 00:09:41,907 Speaker 3: dreaming about playing for their countries. But when it gets 158 00:09:41,907 --> 00:09:44,187 Speaker 3: to the point where they are playing for their countries 159 00:09:44,187 --> 00:09:48,547 Speaker 3: and they find that they are quite good, well good 160 00:09:48,627 --> 00:09:52,427 Speaker 3: enough at T twenty cricket to be offered opportunities elsewhere, 161 00:09:52,507 --> 00:09:55,227 Speaker 3: they're more and more their loyalty to their country has 162 00:09:55,307 --> 00:09:58,947 Speaker 3: been challenged, and more and more the countries themselves are 163 00:09:58,987 --> 00:10:03,787 Speaker 3: missing out on that now. New Zeald Cricket has worked 164 00:10:03,827 --> 00:10:10,067 Speaker 3: incredibly hard with the players in recent years to mitigate 165 00:10:10,147 --> 00:10:13,187 Speaker 3: the risk of the life of top players by providing 166 00:10:14,467 --> 00:10:19,827 Speaker 3: an amazing amount of contracts flexibility to allow players to 167 00:10:19,907 --> 00:10:23,707 Speaker 3: go and play in other competitions but still be available 168 00:10:23,707 --> 00:10:28,347 Speaker 3: to play for the black Caps for the most important 169 00:10:29,507 --> 00:10:32,227 Speaker 3: matches or series or competitions that the black Caps have. 170 00:10:33,107 --> 00:10:38,947 Speaker 3: So that has worked reasonably well in recent years. But 171 00:10:39,027 --> 00:10:44,907 Speaker 3: the difficulty now is that the number of franchise opportunity 172 00:10:45,027 --> 00:10:49,027 Speaker 3: is growing. The conflict between the dates of those and 173 00:10:49,067 --> 00:10:53,827 Speaker 3: the dates of say Black Caps series is also increasing 174 00:10:54,387 --> 00:10:56,307 Speaker 3: and more and more we're not in a position to 175 00:10:57,947 --> 00:11:02,667 Speaker 3: retain our best players as often as we really need to. 176 00:11:04,707 --> 00:11:11,587 Speaker 3: So it's this is a difficult situation and I don't 177 00:11:11,667 --> 00:11:19,267 Speaker 3: see a cohesive solution emerging for international cricket. I can 178 00:11:19,507 --> 00:11:27,827 Speaker 3: see instead further expansion of T twenty franchises, with the 179 00:11:27,907 --> 00:11:32,467 Speaker 3: result that international cricket sort of loses just a little 180 00:11:32,467 --> 00:11:33,507 Speaker 3: bit more each year. 181 00:11:35,067 --> 00:11:37,947 Speaker 2: Just on the fifty over stuff. Martin broadcasters would quite 182 00:11:38,027 --> 00:11:40,587 Speaker 2: like the fifty over format, would they longer? So more 183 00:11:40,627 --> 00:11:42,907 Speaker 2: content eight hours of content I guess in a day, 184 00:11:42,907 --> 00:11:45,747 Speaker 2: plus more opportunities to play commercials. 185 00:11:46,067 --> 00:11:51,627 Speaker 3: Yeah, And that's that's what's enabled the fifty over the 186 00:11:51,907 --> 00:11:56,547 Speaker 3: ODI World Cup to hold its place in the last 187 00:11:56,587 --> 00:12:01,627 Speaker 3: ten years. That exactly. That reason is that the broadcasters 188 00:12:02,027 --> 00:12:07,147 Speaker 3: who pay amazing amounts of money for the rights to 189 00:12:08,147 --> 00:12:13,347 Speaker 3: broadcast these events, particularly out of India, do so because 190 00:12:13,347 --> 00:12:15,827 Speaker 3: they know they've got a game that is eight hours 191 00:12:15,907 --> 00:12:20,467 Speaker 3: long and that it's built to have really regular commercial 192 00:12:20,507 --> 00:12:25,227 Speaker 3: breaks where they can drive the advertising dollars. So that's 193 00:12:25,547 --> 00:12:31,267 Speaker 3: probably the strongest reason why the ODI stuff hangs on. 194 00:12:33,107 --> 00:12:41,227 Speaker 3: But then the counter argument to that is that the 195 00:12:41,267 --> 00:12:46,747 Speaker 3: audiences for the T twenty games, particularly what are perceived 196 00:12:46,747 --> 00:12:51,867 Speaker 3: to be, say the best T twenty games, are growing 197 00:12:51,907 --> 00:12:56,827 Speaker 3: and growing and gradually dwarphing the viewership for ODIs so 198 00:12:56,907 --> 00:13:01,307 Speaker 3: that balance that has existed for the last ten years, 199 00:13:01,427 --> 00:13:05,707 Speaker 3: I think it is gradually changing, and it's not inconceivable 200 00:13:05,787 --> 00:13:12,707 Speaker 3: that even the commercial revenues derived from T twenties will, 201 00:13:14,347 --> 00:13:19,107 Speaker 3: particularly in ICC events I'm talking about, will gradually exceed 202 00:13:19,707 --> 00:13:22,387 Speaker 3: the ODI revenues. And at that time, I think the 203 00:13:22,947 --> 00:13:25,467 Speaker 3: existence of the ODE I will couple come under great 204 00:13:25,907 --> 00:13:30,027 Speaker 3: pressure and if that happened to disappear, then there'll be 205 00:13:30,067 --> 00:13:34,747 Speaker 3: a domino effect where effectively international ODI cricket gradually disappears 206 00:13:34,747 --> 00:13:35,147 Speaker 3: as well. 207 00:13:36,067 --> 00:13:39,147 Speaker 2: Tremendously interesting times for the game of cricket. Martin Thank 208 00:13:39,147 --> 00:13:42,147 Speaker 2: you so much for lending us your expertise. Greatly enjoyed 209 00:13:42,147 --> 00:13:42,507 Speaker 2: the chat. 210 00:13:43,107 --> 00:13:43,747 Speaker 3: Thanks Jasin. 211 00:13:43,907 --> 00:13:47,947 Speaker 2: Thanks mate. That is Martin Sneddon with some very very 212 00:13:48,067 --> 00:13:51,387 Speaker 2: interesting thoughts. There are nothing that we obviously haven't talked 213 00:13:51,387 --> 00:13:55,827 Speaker 2: about before in terms of the proliferation of T twenty 214 00:13:55,867 --> 00:13:58,187 Speaker 2: franchise leagues, but the way Martin talks about it, it 215 00:13:58,267 --> 00:14:00,907 Speaker 2: just it just makes makes so much sense. 216 00:14:01,467 --> 00:14:04,627 Speaker 1: For more from Weekend Sport with Jason Faine, listen live 217 00:14:04,787 --> 00:14:08,147 Speaker 1: to News talksz' b Ends from midday, or follow the 218 00:14:08,187 --> 00:14:09,667 Speaker 1: podcast on iHeartRadio