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Speaker 1: Right now, though, to the serious business. There are concerns

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Speaker 1: a number of New Zealand police officers may have been

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Speaker 1: the target of Chinese spying well on a trip to

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Speaker 1: China or October. Police say it was private, self funded,

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Speaker 1: but organized by the police's ethnic responses of responsive manager

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Speaker 1: and a tour company, a Chinese tour company. Experts, including

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Speaker 1: former SIS Minister Andrew Little, have raised serious concerns about

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Speaker 1: the trip that included a meeting with a Chinese government official,

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Speaker 1: Sam Hoyalse, the Assistant police Commissioner. Good evening, Good evening,

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Speaker 1: thanks for being on the show. You said earlier today

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Speaker 1: that you were going to check into whether any of

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Speaker 1: them were given gifts on this trip. Have you done

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Speaker 1: that and were they?

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Speaker 2: I have done that, and I can confirm that one

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Speaker 2: of the buffet meals they had, a fridge magnet was

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Speaker 2: left at each of the police mets on the table.

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Speaker 2: That's the entire chigel of gifts they received.

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Speaker 1: Were any of the flights or accommodation or meals discounted?

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Speaker 2: Not at all. Everyone. Everyone paid their way. They've paid

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Speaker 2: their way in full. Jessica, who organized the trip, is

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Speaker 2: acutely aware of the risks around foreign interference and the

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Speaker 2: appearances of that. She made sure that everything was paid

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Speaker 2: in full. Every trip, every side excursion of people decided

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Speaker 2: to take them up, or you step out of the

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Speaker 2: day's events and go shopping.

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Speaker 1: So you you as police, you are absolutely confident that

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Speaker 1: none of the flights, none of that, anything that's been

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Speaker 1: paid for and you've checked was discounted. They haven't got

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Speaker 1: any advantage over a fire went on my own.

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Speaker 2: No, the only advantage that have you going on young

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Speaker 2: is that someone else has organized it for them, that

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Speaker 2: Jessica has done the work. Our staff were allowed to

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Speaker 2: travel to China. They abided by all the PSR protectives.

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Speaker 2: Sure of your requirements that are current in New Zealand

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Speaker 2: for all of government, not just police. They checked with

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Speaker 2: ISG before they travel. That's our International Services Group. Now

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Speaker 2: we have staff full time in Beijing and Hong Kong.

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Speaker 2: We work with the Chinese on policing matters. They did

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Speaker 2: all the checks and everything sensible you expect. Who were

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Speaker 2: there to take a holiday in China if you work

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Speaker 2: for the own government.

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Speaker 1: If it was a private holiday, why was Jessica organizing it?

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Speaker 2: She was organizing it for a colleagues at work.

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Speaker 1: Is that is that a good use of j justic

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Speaker 1: as time.

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Speaker 2: You're making assumptions she did on work time, Ryan like

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Speaker 2: she did it because she's interested in the exposing other

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Speaker 2: police to the cultural experience. You know, for our ethnics,

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Speaker 2: liais and staff who work in this space, they are

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Speaker 2: acutely aware of the risks. They live this personally and

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Speaker 2: professionally all the time, both them and their families. They

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Speaker 2: are approached by special interest groups out of a number

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Speaker 2: of countries you know, who have a the spoiler living

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Speaker 2: in Aokland, who try and pressure them, get in front

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Speaker 2: of them, you know, make them accept they will real

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Speaker 2: on issues. Currently we're talking about China, we could be

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Speaker 2: talking about India or any other number of countries. These

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Speaker 2: people who lived this space every day every week, both

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Speaker 2: personally and professionally, understand the risks.

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Speaker 1: Who was the official they met with?

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Speaker 2: I understand he was a local cultural attache who invited

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Speaker 2: himself to the dinner.

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Speaker 1: And what did they talk about?

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Speaker 2: I don't have the details of what that conversation was.

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Speaker 2: I have confidence in our people that were there. They

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Speaker 2: are as I say, they lived in this space all

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Speaker 2: the time. They know the risk they go into these conversations,

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Speaker 2: eyes wide open.

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Speaker 1: How did he know that the dinner was happening. I mean,

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Speaker 1: if this is just a private holiday, I mean it

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Speaker 1: all sound. I mean I can understand what you're saying. Look,

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Speaker 1: for God's sakes, Ryan, it's a fridge magnet. Get over this.

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Speaker 1: But you do have the former SIS Minister and Andrew

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Speaker 1: Little saying anybody with a level of influence, knowledge or

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Speaker 1: understanding about New Zealand and New Zealand decision making of

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Speaker 1: politics and institutions, and anyone with access to information or

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Speaker 1: influence China is very interested in. He says it would

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Speaker 1: be important for the police hierarchy to take a closer

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Speaker 1: look at the officer's disclosures and the extent of the

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Speaker 1: hospitality they enjoyed at the expense of provincial or Beijing

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Speaker 1: governments during the trip.

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Speaker 2: I read that today in the media somewhere. He's not

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Speaker 2: wrong about that that China would have an interest. We

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Speaker 2: know they would have an interest. That's why we have

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Speaker 2: the PSO requirements for all of government employees. That's why

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Speaker 2: they sorted buy some ISG before we went New Zealand.

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Speaker 2: Police is not flying to those risks. We have staff

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Speaker 2: who live in work in Beijing and Hong Kong who

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Speaker 2: are in that environment all the time, and we have

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Speaker 2: our ethnic Leosan staff and cities like Auckland who live

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Speaker 2: and work in that environment the entire time. They're aware

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Speaker 2: of the risks and they are live to that all

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Speaker 2: the time.

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Speaker 1: Did they take their private phones? Did anyone check them

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Speaker 1: on return.

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Speaker 2: They took famous I can only assume they took their

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Speaker 2: private phones. I do know they left all police electronics behind,

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Speaker 2: which is always sensible when you're going away on holiday.

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Speaker 2: And though we are not in the business of checking

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Speaker 2: our staffs private phones when they were turned from holiday.

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Speaker 1: Would you do this type of trip again happily? Well,

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Speaker 1: I guess allow it to be done again.

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Speaker 2: I would allow staff take leave and travel to China,

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Speaker 2: whether they do it by themselves, whether they do it's

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Speaker 2: part of a public tour, whether they organize another group

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Speaker 2: of police staff to go together. You know, employees out

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Speaker 2: of workplaces organizing trips together is not unheard of, not

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Speaker 2: just in police. I'd expect that probably the PSO requirements.

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Speaker 2: I expect that they would speak to IG before they travel.

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Speaker 2: Either expect they look at the in fact advice on

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Speaker 2: the trouble on the country they intend traveling to to

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Speaker 2: make sure it's safe. They did all those sensible things.

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Speaker 2: There is no rule anywhere in the New Zealand system

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Speaker 2: that these officers couldn't travel to China.

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Speaker 1: You're absolutely right. What did it cost them? Out of interest?

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Speaker 2: I have seen a couple of I don't want to

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Speaker 2: quote one, I might get it wrong. What roughly it

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Speaker 2: was several thousand dollars for each of them per person.

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Speaker 1: A couple of grand to go. How long were they there?

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Speaker 2: I said several thousand dollars a few days, four days

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Speaker 2: or something. I've seen the itinerary like its look like

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Speaker 2: a good itinerary. They've visited some amazing sites and museums

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Speaker 2: and gorges and saw some great.

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Speaker 1: Stuff, all right, And we didn't bring home many spies no,

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Speaker 1: all right, Sam, thank you very much for your time.

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Speaker 1: Appreciate it. Sam Hoyle, the Assistant Police Commissioner. For more

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Speaker 1: from Hither Duplessy Allen Drive, listen live to news talks.

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Speaker 1: It'd be from four pm weekdays, or follow the podcast

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Speaker 1: on iHeartRadio