1 00:00:06,360 --> 00:00:09,520 Speaker 1: Gielda. I'm Chelsea Daniels and this is the Front Page, 2 00:00:09,960 --> 00:00:18,119 Speaker 1: a daily podcast presented by the New Zealand Herald. In 3 00:00:18,200 --> 00:00:21,360 Speaker 1: New Zealand, there are a number of tribunals and review 4 00:00:21,440 --> 00:00:24,200 Speaker 1: boards you can go to when you feel things haven't 5 00:00:24,280 --> 00:00:27,200 Speaker 1: quite gone your way, whether you've had a bad experience 6 00:00:27,280 --> 00:00:30,680 Speaker 1: leaving your job, or something's gone wrong in your healthcare journey. 7 00:00:30,920 --> 00:00:33,600 Speaker 1: These committees are tasked with working out what has gone 8 00:00:33,680 --> 00:00:37,519 Speaker 1: wrong and who, if anyone, should be held responsible, but 9 00:00:37,680 --> 00:00:40,120 Speaker 1: some of them can be limited in how much they 10 00:00:40,120 --> 00:00:43,920 Speaker 1: can hold people to account. For example, the Human Rights 11 00:00:44,000 --> 00:00:46,760 Speaker 1: Review Tribunal is one of the few in New Zealand 12 00:00:46,840 --> 00:00:52,839 Speaker 1: that can award damages. Reporter Jeremy Wilkinson covers a lot 13 00:00:52,840 --> 00:00:56,279 Speaker 1: of these tribunals for Open Justice and he joins us 14 00:00:56,320 --> 00:00:58,960 Speaker 1: today on the Front Page for the first in a 15 00:00:59,000 --> 00:01:06,840 Speaker 1: series of exams nations of how these processes work. And Jeremy, 16 00:01:06,959 --> 00:01:11,080 Speaker 1: let's start with the obvious one. What exactly is the 17 00:01:11,200 --> 00:01:13,200 Speaker 1: Human Rights Review Tribunal. 18 00:01:14,440 --> 00:01:18,840 Speaker 2: Yeah, so the tribunal, it's our highest human rights jurisdiction 19 00:01:18,880 --> 00:01:22,720 Speaker 2: in the country. It's charged with hearing claims relating to discrimination, 20 00:01:23,120 --> 00:01:28,600 Speaker 2: sexual and racial harassment. Privacy breaches, and health and disability rights. 21 00:01:28,680 --> 00:01:29,279 Speaker 1: It can IFU. 22 00:01:29,240 --> 00:01:33,880 Speaker 2: Findings make awards up to two hundred and fifty thousand dollars. 23 00:01:34,280 --> 00:01:36,920 Speaker 1: And there are a few paths that lead you kind 24 00:01:36,920 --> 00:01:38,080 Speaker 1: of to this tribunal. 25 00:01:38,120 --> 00:01:41,720 Speaker 2: Hey, there's three pads that can get you there, each 26 00:01:41,800 --> 00:01:43,720 Speaker 2: through a different commissioner. So you can go through the 27 00:01:43,840 --> 00:01:47,640 Speaker 2: Health and disability, the privacy or the Human Rights commissioner. 28 00:01:47,840 --> 00:01:49,840 Speaker 2: They don't each other. They need to make a favorable 29 00:01:50,120 --> 00:01:53,360 Speaker 2: finding in your case for you to go up a level, 30 00:01:53,440 --> 00:01:55,880 Speaker 2: so to speak, to get to the Human Rights Review tribunal. 31 00:01:55,880 --> 00:01:58,120 Speaker 2: But you do need to kind of tick that box 32 00:01:58,280 --> 00:02:01,520 Speaker 2: through one of those commissioners before you can actually make 33 00:02:01,560 --> 00:02:03,640 Speaker 2: it to the tribunal. And that's meant to be the 34 00:02:04,080 --> 00:02:05,600 Speaker 2: kind of triaging. 35 00:02:05,360 --> 00:02:09,120 Speaker 1: Right, So let's talk through those briefly, Health and disability 36 00:02:09,160 --> 00:02:12,520 Speaker 1: handles issues and healthcare and will come to that with 37 00:02:12,680 --> 00:02:17,440 Speaker 1: you on another episode. But the Privacy Commissioner considers complaints 38 00:02:17,480 --> 00:02:21,680 Speaker 1: about things like breaches of privacy and access to personal information. 39 00:02:22,240 --> 00:02:25,160 Speaker 1: That sounds pretty broad. What kind of cases have you 40 00:02:25,200 --> 00:02:26,320 Speaker 1: seen considered here? 41 00:02:26,919 --> 00:02:30,400 Speaker 2: Yeah, So the procy Commissioner, their rulings are for the 42 00:02:30,440 --> 00:02:34,000 Speaker 2: most part, funnily enough, private they probabished some of their 43 00:02:34,080 --> 00:02:38,440 Speaker 2: rulings every year, but they're mostly anonymized. In terms of 44 00:02:38,480 --> 00:02:40,760 Speaker 2: a case that we've seen where we did have a 45 00:02:40,760 --> 00:02:44,400 Speaker 2: woman contact us with an active complaint. She was at 46 00:02:44,400 --> 00:02:48,520 Speaker 2: a bar and Wellington met a guy and they hooked up, 47 00:02:48,840 --> 00:02:51,520 Speaker 2: but it was on CCTV and one of the staff 48 00:02:51,560 --> 00:02:54,120 Speaker 2: members at the bar was watching on CCTV, filmed it 49 00:02:54,200 --> 00:02:57,440 Speaker 2: on their phone and sent it to the man's partner. 50 00:02:57,720 --> 00:03:00,200 Speaker 2: As partners then come in and assaulted the woman. So 51 00:03:00,240 --> 00:03:02,200 Speaker 2: she took the bar to the Privacy Commissioner on the 52 00:03:02,200 --> 00:03:06,600 Speaker 2: basis that filmed the CCTV and distributed it. The result 53 00:03:06,639 --> 00:03:09,799 Speaker 2: of that wasn't given to us, but often parties will 54 00:03:09,840 --> 00:03:13,359 Speaker 2: reach a settlement, but the Privacy Commissioner can't make a 55 00:03:13,480 --> 00:03:17,639 Speaker 2: damages award. But often parties will reach a settlement as 56 00:03:17,720 --> 00:03:19,680 Speaker 2: part of that mediation, if you like. 57 00:03:21,280 --> 00:03:24,280 Speaker 3: Paula Hamilton went to the Deanery three years ago for 58 00:03:24,360 --> 00:03:28,239 Speaker 3: help with her alcohol problems. A good relationship with the 59 00:03:28,320 --> 00:03:32,720 Speaker 3: christ To Rehab Center soon turns out and ended with 60 00:03:32,840 --> 00:03:36,400 Speaker 3: her seeking two hundred thousand dollars for breach of privacy. 61 00:03:36,800 --> 00:03:40,400 Speaker 1: What was important to me was that he not be 62 00:03:40,480 --> 00:03:45,800 Speaker 1: allowed harm all those sort of establishments harm people again. 63 00:03:46,920 --> 00:03:50,680 Speaker 3: Now she's been awarded forty thousand dollars damages for humiliation 64 00:03:50,880 --> 00:03:54,560 Speaker 3: and loss of dignity. The Human Rights Review Tribe NAL 65 00:03:54,720 --> 00:03:57,880 Speaker 3: says the Deanery is guilty of serious breaches. 66 00:04:00,960 --> 00:04:03,360 Speaker 1: And the Human Rights Commissioner. I think we can all 67 00:04:03,360 --> 00:04:06,000 Speaker 1: imagine the worst type of human rights abuses, like war 68 00:04:06,040 --> 00:04:08,560 Speaker 1: crimes and the like, but I don't imagine our commissioner 69 00:04:08,560 --> 00:04:11,440 Speaker 1: is tackling those cases on the regular is he? So 70 00:04:11,800 --> 00:04:13,120 Speaker 1: what are they looking at? 71 00:04:13,360 --> 00:04:17,799 Speaker 2: So the Human Rights Commission doesn't actually publish its cases, 72 00:04:18,040 --> 00:04:20,800 Speaker 2: even anonymously, but we do see them as they filter 73 00:04:21,040 --> 00:04:24,039 Speaker 2: through to the Human Rights Review Triviunal. I think one 74 00:04:24,040 --> 00:04:27,279 Speaker 2: that stands out to me has been the case of 75 00:04:27,360 --> 00:04:35,240 Speaker 2: Judith Webe. She subjected her flatmate. He's a professional immigrant 76 00:04:35,560 --> 00:04:40,320 Speaker 2: who was trying to set up a place to live 77 00:04:41,000 --> 00:04:44,000 Speaker 2: when he got to New Zealand, and she's subjected him 78 00:04:44,040 --> 00:04:47,599 Speaker 2: to a racist tirade that was so severe that the 79 00:04:47,640 --> 00:04:51,760 Speaker 2: tribunal ordered that she paid him twenty eight thousand dollars. 80 00:04:52,320 --> 00:04:55,000 Speaker 2: That was a couple of years ago. So that's the 81 00:04:55,160 --> 00:05:00,279 Speaker 2: kind of ruling that the Human Rights Commissioner would deal 82 00:05:00,320 --> 00:05:02,040 Speaker 2: with first and then it goes up to the Human 83 00:05:02,120 --> 00:05:03,080 Speaker 2: Rights Review Tribunal. 84 00:05:03,440 --> 00:05:06,400 Speaker 1: So once the case gets to the tribunal level, so 85 00:05:06,520 --> 00:05:08,680 Speaker 1: to speak, what happens from there and how long can 86 00:05:08,720 --> 00:05:10,000 Speaker 1: these processes take? 87 00:05:10,760 --> 00:05:13,159 Speaker 2: It can take two years, according to an OAA released 88 00:05:13,279 --> 00:05:16,720 Speaker 2: to NZME. I suppose, for context, high Court judges are 89 00:05:16,760 --> 00:05:20,880 Speaker 2: expected to deliver judgments within three months, while their average 90 00:05:21,040 --> 00:05:23,760 Speaker 2: is two years. In reality, we actually see people waiting 91 00:05:24,920 --> 00:05:27,560 Speaker 2: a lot longer than that. Some people there we've talked 92 00:05:27,600 --> 00:05:30,160 Speaker 2: to have waited two years after lodging a complaint to 93 00:05:30,160 --> 00:05:32,520 Speaker 2: get a hearing, and then they've waited another two years 94 00:05:32,560 --> 00:05:36,799 Speaker 2: to actually get a decision from there. Some experts speculate 95 00:05:36,880 --> 00:05:41,200 Speaker 2: that the various commissioner's ability to not award damages means 96 00:05:41,240 --> 00:05:44,160 Speaker 2: that people don't feel that justice has been achieved at 97 00:05:44,160 --> 00:05:46,600 Speaker 2: that lower level. So they kind of reach the end 98 00:05:46,600 --> 00:05:48,920 Speaker 2: of the road with the Privacy commission or the Human 99 00:05:49,000 --> 00:05:53,120 Speaker 2: Rights Commissioner and think, okay, so what now and the 100 00:05:53,120 --> 00:05:55,599 Speaker 2: what now is the Human Rights Review Tribunal? 101 00:05:56,160 --> 00:05:59,640 Speaker 1: What are some more cases that you've covered from the tribunal? 102 00:06:00,040 --> 00:06:02,440 Speaker 2: Judith Weby is the one that again stands out for me. 103 00:06:03,279 --> 00:06:06,039 Speaker 2: She keeps cropping up over and about her again a 104 00:06:06,080 --> 00:06:08,880 Speaker 2: few more times, not through the tribunal, but that was 105 00:06:08,880 --> 00:06:11,760 Speaker 2: one that does stand out for me. There was another 106 00:06:11,920 --> 00:06:15,920 Speaker 2: really interesting one, a guy in the whited Upper called 107 00:06:15,960 --> 00:06:19,880 Speaker 2: Stephen Butcher. He objected to his photo being on his 108 00:06:20,000 --> 00:06:24,279 Speaker 2: driver's license because it was his interpretation that when you 109 00:06:24,800 --> 00:06:27,800 Speaker 2: encode a photograph digitally, it turns into a series of 110 00:06:27,920 --> 00:06:31,160 Speaker 2: zeros and ones, and those zeros and ones and his 111 00:06:31,440 --> 00:06:34,680 Speaker 2: estimation could spell out six sixty six or the mark 112 00:06:34,720 --> 00:06:38,120 Speaker 2: of the beast, and that went against his Christian religion. 113 00:06:38,480 --> 00:06:41,600 Speaker 2: That was a pretty wild case where they flew up 114 00:06:41,760 --> 00:06:46,440 Speaker 2: a historian from Dunedin to give the expert evidence on 115 00:06:46,520 --> 00:06:50,240 Speaker 2: this thousand year old piece of papyrus that Stephen Butcher 116 00:06:50,440 --> 00:06:53,680 Speaker 2: presented his evidence. Suffice to say, he did not win 117 00:06:53,760 --> 00:06:56,960 Speaker 2: that and he must have his photo on his driver's 118 00:06:56,960 --> 00:06:59,000 Speaker 2: license if he wants to drive like everyone else in 119 00:06:59,040 --> 00:06:59,520 Speaker 2: New Zealand. 120 00:07:12,120 --> 00:07:15,120 Speaker 1: I guess that's a perfect starting point to my next question, 121 00:07:15,200 --> 00:07:17,600 Speaker 1: I suppose, and I want to ask about what kinds 122 00:07:17,640 --> 00:07:20,360 Speaker 1: of cases can be heard and if there's any limit, 123 00:07:20,440 --> 00:07:23,560 Speaker 1: because based on some of your recent reporting and that 124 00:07:23,680 --> 00:07:25,720 Speaker 1: case that you've just told me there, it doesn't seem 125 00:07:25,760 --> 00:07:28,440 Speaker 1: like there is any limit. What can you tell me 126 00:07:28,560 --> 00:07:31,520 Speaker 1: about a man named Timing Zong. 127 00:07:32,120 --> 00:07:36,800 Speaker 2: Yes, so, mister Zong has had five rulings through the tribunal. 128 00:07:37,200 --> 00:07:40,600 Speaker 2: Some of them have had more merit than others. One 129 00:07:40,640 --> 00:07:43,840 Speaker 2: of them, he took the Redhill Restaurant in Wellington to 130 00:07:43,880 --> 00:07:47,680 Speaker 2: the tribunal because he wanted to eat a meal called 131 00:07:47,680 --> 00:07:51,080 Speaker 2: a hot pot, which is generally shared, and he wanted 132 00:07:51,120 --> 00:07:53,000 Speaker 2: to just pay for one person, but he'd have to 133 00:07:53,000 --> 00:07:55,520 Speaker 2: pay the full sharing price as just the way the 134 00:07:55,560 --> 00:07:58,000 Speaker 2: restaurant and the meal is set up, so he took 135 00:07:58,000 --> 00:08:00,960 Speaker 2: them to the tribunal for that. He took Samsung to 136 00:08:01,000 --> 00:08:05,600 Speaker 2: the tribunal Samsung's New Zealand branch because his Chinese simcard 137 00:08:05,600 --> 00:08:08,880 Speaker 2: wouldn't work in his phone. He took Apple Apple New 138 00:08:08,960 --> 00:08:12,640 Speaker 2: Zealand sales to the tribunal because he claimed that his 139 00:08:13,080 --> 00:08:16,840 Speaker 2: iPad's voice function was racist. And he tried to take 140 00:08:16,840 --> 00:08:19,440 Speaker 2: the James Cook Hotel in Wellington to the tribunal as 141 00:08:19,440 --> 00:08:22,080 Speaker 2: well when they gave him Coke zero instead of Coke 142 00:08:22,400 --> 00:08:24,880 Speaker 2: no Sugar, which was what it was advertised on their menu. 143 00:08:25,040 --> 00:08:28,040 Speaker 2: The Tribunal was called many of his claims frivolous, but 144 00:08:28,080 --> 00:08:32,120 Speaker 2: they can't stop him making the claims and this is 145 00:08:32,520 --> 00:08:35,319 Speaker 2: where that triajin from the other three commissioners kind of 146 00:08:35,360 --> 00:08:37,599 Speaker 2: comes into play, and that Zen would have had to 147 00:08:37,640 --> 00:08:40,319 Speaker 2: take his complaints to any one of those three commissioners, 148 00:08:40,640 --> 00:08:42,720 Speaker 2: and it doesn't matter if they make a no finding. 149 00:08:43,160 --> 00:08:45,200 Speaker 2: He's ticked that box, so he can now take it 150 00:08:45,280 --> 00:08:49,080 Speaker 2: up another level. The Director of Human Rights proceedings's a 151 00:08:49,080 --> 00:08:51,880 Speaker 2: guy called Michael Timmins, and he's spoken to The Herald 152 00:08:51,920 --> 00:08:55,240 Speaker 2: before about how that triaging from those bottom or those 153 00:08:55,280 --> 00:08:59,199 Speaker 2: lower level commissioners needs to perhaps be more more effective, 154 00:08:59,320 --> 00:09:03,120 Speaker 2: or perhaps those commissioners need more power to stop frivolous 155 00:09:03,120 --> 00:09:07,040 Speaker 2: claims advancing and to help resolve claims before they need 156 00:09:07,080 --> 00:09:08,040 Speaker 2: to go up another level. 157 00:09:10,520 --> 00:09:13,320 Speaker 4: The Human Rights Tribunal has found the Crown breached the 158 00:09:13,320 --> 00:09:16,680 Speaker 4: privacy of Kim dot Com. In twenty fifteen, the Attorney 159 00:09:16,679 --> 00:09:20,120 Speaker 4: General rejected dot COM's requests for access to all information 160 00:09:20,240 --> 00:09:23,920 Speaker 4: held about in my government ministers and departments. The reason 161 00:09:23,960 --> 00:09:27,560 Speaker 4: given was that the Internet mogul's request were vexatious and trivial. 162 00:09:28,000 --> 00:09:30,440 Speaker 4: Now the Tribunal has found there was a breach of 163 00:09:30,480 --> 00:09:33,360 Speaker 4: privacy and has now ordered the Attorney General to play 164 00:09:33,400 --> 00:09:35,600 Speaker 4: him ninety thousand dollars in damages. 165 00:09:38,000 --> 00:09:40,800 Speaker 1: So I suppose anyone can just take a case up 166 00:09:40,840 --> 00:09:42,840 Speaker 1: if you've got the money for it. What sort of 167 00:09:42,840 --> 00:09:45,160 Speaker 1: impact does that have on the process. 168 00:09:45,679 --> 00:09:49,520 Speaker 2: We actually see quite a few people self represented through 169 00:09:49,559 --> 00:09:53,680 Speaker 2: the tribunal, So there has been quite a few inmates 170 00:09:53,760 --> 00:09:57,160 Speaker 2: or former inmates taking the Department of Corrections through the 171 00:09:57,160 --> 00:10:01,280 Speaker 2: tribunal or breaches of privacy and a breach of privacy 172 00:10:01,320 --> 00:10:04,880 Speaker 2: here in this context is where you apply for information 173 00:10:05,240 --> 00:10:07,000 Speaker 2: from any agency new jay them. They don't have to 174 00:10:07,000 --> 00:10:10,240 Speaker 2: be government. You can apply for no leaning to send 175 00:10:10,240 --> 00:10:13,400 Speaker 2: you any information it has about you under the Privacy Act. 176 00:10:13,559 --> 00:10:15,680 Speaker 2: So we're seeing lots of people who apply for this 177 00:10:15,720 --> 00:10:18,599 Speaker 2: information and it's not released. It's a similar process to 178 00:10:18,679 --> 00:10:21,640 Speaker 2: the IA process. I suppose we see a lot of 179 00:10:21,679 --> 00:10:24,439 Speaker 2: people who don't have money for a lawyer. They will 180 00:10:24,440 --> 00:10:27,920 Speaker 2: actually just progress a claim self represented through the tribunal 181 00:10:28,000 --> 00:10:31,720 Speaker 2: and actually they do often have a fair bit of success. 182 00:10:32,200 --> 00:10:34,280 Speaker 1: So if you don't have the money, but you do 183 00:10:34,360 --> 00:10:37,720 Speaker 1: feel like you've had your human rights breached, say what 184 00:10:37,720 --> 00:10:39,400 Speaker 1: are the options available to you? Then? 185 00:10:39,880 --> 00:10:42,880 Speaker 2: So, as we mentioned before, you can self represent or 186 00:10:43,679 --> 00:10:47,079 Speaker 2: the Director of Human Rights Proceedings he is in a 187 00:10:47,120 --> 00:10:51,160 Speaker 2: tax funded position where he can take certain cases on 188 00:10:51,360 --> 00:10:54,480 Speaker 2: and progress them through the tribunal on your behalf. It's 189 00:10:54,559 --> 00:10:56,960 Speaker 2: quite an essential function because it means that people without 190 00:10:56,960 --> 00:11:00,280 Speaker 2: the means to take serious claims, or without the time, 191 00:11:00,960 --> 00:11:04,680 Speaker 2: energy or knowledge to research the Human Rights Act or 192 00:11:04,679 --> 00:11:07,600 Speaker 2: the Privacy Act or the Health and Disability Act, it 193 00:11:07,640 --> 00:11:11,320 Speaker 2: means they can be represented by someone who is familiar 194 00:11:11,400 --> 00:11:13,960 Speaker 2: with that and they can seek justice in that manner. 195 00:11:14,280 --> 00:11:18,640 Speaker 1: You've spoken to people who have gone through these tribunal processes. 196 00:11:18,960 --> 00:11:21,080 Speaker 1: Do they feel like it's worth it? 197 00:11:21,559 --> 00:11:25,920 Speaker 2: The phrase it's often touted as justice delayed is justice denied, 198 00:11:26,160 --> 00:11:30,360 Speaker 2: And when you're waiting four years sometimes from claim to ruling, 199 00:11:30,600 --> 00:11:33,960 Speaker 2: can probably feel like it's not with it. But then again, 200 00:11:34,160 --> 00:11:37,760 Speaker 2: there was a guy we covered, Malcolm King. He's claustrophobically 201 00:11:37,760 --> 00:11:40,319 Speaker 2: locked in a police cell, waited four years for a decision. 202 00:11:40,520 --> 00:11:42,720 Speaker 2: He said it was incredibly frustrating, but at the end 203 00:11:42,760 --> 00:11:45,200 Speaker 2: of the day he was represented for free by the 204 00:11:45,200 --> 00:11:48,480 Speaker 2: Director of Human Rights Proceedings and one forty five thousand dollars. 205 00:11:48,720 --> 00:11:52,280 Speaker 2: So incredibly frustrating to wait four years, but he didn't 206 00:11:52,320 --> 00:11:55,040 Speaker 2: need to pay for a lawyer out of any of 207 00:11:55,080 --> 00:11:58,280 Speaker 2: those fees. I suppose as another factor to again bring 208 00:11:58,320 --> 00:12:00,720 Speaker 2: it back to Judith withbe she was ordered to pay 209 00:12:01,000 --> 00:12:04,160 Speaker 2: twenty eight thousand dollars but hasn't paid it, so it 210 00:12:04,240 --> 00:12:06,960 Speaker 2: was it worth it for the complaint in there? Maybe not? 211 00:12:07,440 --> 00:12:10,920 Speaker 2: The government departments tend to pay up, but the tribunal 212 00:12:10,920 --> 00:12:13,760 Speaker 2: doesn't actually have the power to enforce its own orders. 213 00:12:14,040 --> 00:12:14,480 Speaker 1: None of the. 214 00:12:14,400 --> 00:12:17,360 Speaker 2: Tribunals in New Zealand do. Finally enough, they can make 215 00:12:17,400 --> 00:12:19,080 Speaker 2: an order, but then it needs to be backed up 216 00:12:19,120 --> 00:12:22,000 Speaker 2: by the district court, at which point your bailiffs can 217 00:12:22,000 --> 00:12:24,800 Speaker 2: get involved, or you can get money taken directly from 218 00:12:24,840 --> 00:12:28,160 Speaker 2: a salary or a benefit. But again that takes more 219 00:12:28,160 --> 00:12:28,880 Speaker 2: time and energy. 220 00:12:29,440 --> 00:12:33,360 Speaker 1: What's the argument for giving tribunals and review committees these 221 00:12:33,440 --> 00:12:35,760 Speaker 1: kind of things more powers. 222 00:12:36,080 --> 00:12:38,720 Speaker 2: There's a Ministry of Justice kind of working group that 223 00:12:38,840 --> 00:12:42,840 Speaker 2: looked at this and they were looking at potentially giving 224 00:12:42,880 --> 00:12:45,840 Speaker 2: the dispute tribunal more power. One of their recommendations was 225 00:12:45,880 --> 00:12:49,160 Speaker 2: to actually double the damage's capped for the Disputes Tribunal 226 00:12:49,360 --> 00:12:52,360 Speaker 2: from thirty thousand dollars to sixty thousand dollars, which this 227 00:12:52,480 --> 00:12:55,680 Speaker 2: current government has has put forward, so that that's something 228 00:12:55,880 --> 00:12:59,840 Speaker 2: they're aiming to progress in terms of giving tribunals more power. 229 00:13:00,280 --> 00:13:03,240 Speaker 2: I don't think there is among experts and among the 230 00:13:03,360 --> 00:13:06,960 Speaker 2: recommendations that we've seen, that's not something that seems to 231 00:13:07,000 --> 00:13:10,200 Speaker 2: be on the table because New Zealand operates on a 232 00:13:10,200 --> 00:13:12,679 Speaker 2: trust basis. Right, you can go and buy, you can 233 00:13:13,000 --> 00:13:15,600 Speaker 2: fill your car up and then pay for petrol, for example, 234 00:13:15,679 --> 00:13:18,000 Speaker 2: and that kind of filters down into the way that 235 00:13:18,280 --> 00:13:21,600 Speaker 2: we operate as a society. We tend to trust people. 236 00:13:21,640 --> 00:13:24,400 Speaker 2: And ninety nine percent of people who have a tribunal 237 00:13:24,480 --> 00:13:26,920 Speaker 2: order made against them see you know, the Ministry of 238 00:13:27,000 --> 00:13:30,240 Speaker 2: Justice letterhead and they think, oh, I have to pay that, 239 00:13:30,360 --> 00:13:32,160 Speaker 2: and they don't look into it any further. But there 240 00:13:32,200 --> 00:13:34,680 Speaker 2: is a very small percentage in people who don't pay, 241 00:13:34,840 --> 00:13:38,760 Speaker 2: or perhaps can't pay so they won't pay. Undergoing massive 242 00:13:39,080 --> 00:13:42,000 Speaker 2: law changes in order to give tribunals more power. Is 243 00:13:42,040 --> 00:13:44,120 Speaker 2: that something and it's worth it? From the advice to 244 00:13:44,559 --> 00:13:46,679 Speaker 2: the Ministry, it isn't worth it. 245 00:13:46,880 --> 00:13:48,679 Speaker 1: Thanks for joining us, Jeremy. 246 00:13:48,760 --> 00:13:49,360 Speaker 2: No worries. 247 00:13:53,520 --> 00:13:56,640 Speaker 1: That's it for this episode of the Front Page. You 248 00:13:56,679 --> 00:14:00,640 Speaker 1: can read more about today's stories and extensive news at 249 00:14:00,679 --> 00:14:04,440 Speaker 1: enzed Herald dot co dot nz. The Front Page is 250 00:14:04,520 --> 00:14:08,880 Speaker 1: produced by Ethan Seals, Dan Goodwin is the sound engineer. 251 00:14:09,200 --> 00:14:13,600 Speaker 1: I'm Chelsea Daniels. Subscribe to the front page on iHeartRadio 252 00:14:13,840 --> 00:14:17,240 Speaker 1: or wherever you get your podcasts, and tune in tomorrow 253 00:14:17,440 --> 00:14:19,800 Speaker 1: for another look behind the headlines.