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Speaker 1: With us right now we have Nikola Willis the Finance Minister.

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Speaker 1: High Nikoler. Hi, Heather, you've been watching the Tom Phillip

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Speaker 1: stuff like everybody else.

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Speaker 2: Ah, yeah, it's just been so harrowing to watch, just

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Speaker 2: thinking of those poor kids in the bush and what

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Speaker 2: they've gone through. I'm so glad they've been found.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, but a men's relief. Ammense relief that they've been.

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Speaker 2: Found, immense relief and just terrible to think of what

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Speaker 2: they will have been through and the recovery from here.

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Speaker 1: Now, listen, what do you think of New Zealand First's

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Speaker 1: Key we Save idea?

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Speaker 2: Well, look, every serious political party between now and the

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Speaker 2: next election, I think will have to come up with

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Speaker 2: a policy on superannuation because superannuation costs in New Zealand

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Speaker 2: are rising dramatically. Is a share of our economy twenty

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Speaker 2: five billion now rising to twenty nine billion in just

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Speaker 2: three years. So I can understand why New Zealand First

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Speaker 2: is contemplating the role of Key we Saver. I guess

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Speaker 2: the curious bit was that they said the contributions would

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Speaker 2: be offset by tax cuts. Back at the envelope, that

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Speaker 2: would be around fifteen billion dollars worth of tax cuts

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Speaker 2: a year. So for context, our tax package that we

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Speaker 2: delivered after the election was three point seven billion, so

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Speaker 2: that is a hair give a lot of tax cut.

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Speaker 2: So the question then becomes, how do you fund that?

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Speaker 2: And if you're adding that onto the cost of consult

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Speaker 2: compulsory super, how does it all add up?

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Speaker 1: Yeah, you probably don't Joe that. I mean, it sounds

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Speaker 1: like it might be a bit wild, the tax cut idea.

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Speaker 1: But what about the idea of making it compulsory. Are

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Speaker 1: you into that?

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Speaker 2: Well? I think every New Zealander does make a compulsory

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Speaker 2: contribution to their SUPER right now, because we have a

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Speaker 2: universal pension scheme which means that when you hit sixty five,

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Speaker 2: you get SUPER and we all fund that through our taxes.

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Speaker 2: And so the point that you're making Key we Save

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Speaker 2: a compulsory as well. I think the next question you

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Speaker 2: have to ask is is this intended as an addition

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Speaker 2: to super and offset to Super? Because quite legit, there

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Speaker 2: are some families right now who choose not to contribute

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Speaker 2: to Key We Savor because they're choosing to pay down

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Speaker 2: their mortgage or they have really pressing concerns in their

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Speaker 2: household budget. So you're also making them pay tax. They're

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Speaker 2: saying I can't afford these compulsory contributions, and why should

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Speaker 2: I when I'm already going to get super when I'm

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Speaker 2: sixty five? So I think you have to work through

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Speaker 2: all of those questions.

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Speaker 1: See point What about the idea of getting it to

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Speaker 1: ten percent? Given that over in AUSEO it's twelve.

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Speaker 2: Well, I understand that what New Zealand First are proposing

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Speaker 2: is actually ten plus ten, so ten from the employee

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Speaker 2: and ten from the employer, so that's twenty compared to

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Speaker 2: Australia's twelve. Look. I obviously support increasing contributions to key

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Speaker 2: we saver wheen New Zealanders want to make them, which

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Speaker 2: is why I'm the budget We set out a path

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Speaker 2: to increase contributions from three to four, matched by employers,

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Speaker 2: and I think that that is positive for helping key

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Speaker 2: We's build up their savings. But at twenty percent, look,

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Speaker 2: I'd have to talk to once Inn about why he

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Speaker 2: thinks New Zealander should be saving almost twice as much

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Speaker 2: as Ossie's when Ossies, of course, do not have a

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Speaker 2: universal pension scheme at all. Only a small number of

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Speaker 2: Australians get state funded pension support.

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Speaker 1: Listen. I was talking to Simon Watt's about this ree Paris,

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Speaker 1: and I really don't have an answer to this yet,

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Speaker 1: so I'm hoping you might. Have you guys done the

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Speaker 1: numbers on how much it would cost us as an

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Speaker 1: economy to pull out of Paris?

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Speaker 2: No, not that I understand specifically. What we do know

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Speaker 2: is that a number of our trading partners view our

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Speaker 2: participation in Paris is really important. So if they saw

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Speaker 2: that we weren't taking action as good global citizens on

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Speaker 2: climate change, that could put some of our free trade

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Speaker 2: and danger and that.

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Speaker 1: Said to us, it's not going to happen. He was like, look,

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Speaker 1: it's a possibility, but it's probably not going to happen,

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Speaker 1: as the vibe I got from him. But so we

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Speaker 1: don't know how much it's going to cost us to

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Speaker 1: pull out. Have we done the numbers on how much

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Speaker 1: it's costing the economy to state.

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Speaker 2: In Well, obviously we've set out a five year reduction

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Speaker 2: plan that gets us closer to our net zero target,

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Speaker 2: and that's partly funded through the emissions Trading Scheme and

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Speaker 2: some other initiatives. That's affordable within our current budget settings.

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Speaker 2: The problem with the National Development contribution, which is the

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Speaker 2: Paris I'm.

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Speaker 1: Not referring to. I'm not referring to that. I'm talking

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Speaker 1: about the economic cost of being part of Paris. Right,

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Speaker 1: So things like, for example, we are planting trees instead

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Speaker 1: of you know, doing sheep and beef, and we're fullgoing

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Speaker 1: economic returns as a result of that. Have you guys

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Speaker 1: quantified the burden that we're taking on by being part

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Speaker 1: of Paris? And the reason I'm asking Okay, so the

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Speaker 1: reason I'm asking you this question is because we keep

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Speaker 1: getting told, oh, it's going to cost us more if

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Speaker 1: we pull out than if we stay in. But maybe

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Speaker 1: it actually costs us more to stay in.

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Speaker 2: Well, the reality is that we are an agricultural nation

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Speaker 2: for whom one and four jobs depend on our exports.

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Speaker 2: So at the point we lose market access and we

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Speaker 2: can't access consumers for our export products, that is an

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Speaker 2: economy change. I know that, I know far larger than

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Speaker 2: I think there are other markets.

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Speaker 1: You know that, But all I'm saying is, let's me

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Speaker 1: rational about this. Right, we might be chasing five dollars

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Speaker 1: worth of returns, but paying fifteen dollars is an economy

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Speaker 1: to do it. And that's stupid, We don't.

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Speaker 2: Know and rationally, and rationally, what I'm saying to you

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Speaker 2: is the chances that the cost of participating in emission

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Speaker 2: reduction are larger than one in four jobs and the

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Speaker 2: economy is next to zero. And the point that I

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Speaker 2: was going to make earlier is the problem with the

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Speaker 2: Paris commitment is that James Shore committed us to far

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Speaker 2: larger commitments internationally than we have in our domestic law

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Speaker 2: here at home. So Zero Carbon Act, which is us

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Speaker 2: progressively slowly reducing emissions. That's all achievable, and we've actually

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Speaker 2: set out a plan to do it. The problem is

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Speaker 2: he went completely over the top with the undertakings we

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Speaker 2: then made through that NBC And that's the real that's

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Speaker 2: the real issue here.

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Speaker 1: You surprised, Hey, listen on the Auckland densification debate. Are

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Speaker 1: you guys going to have all Are you guys going

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Speaker 1: to have to give Auckland Council a little bit more

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Speaker 1: time to be able to decide what to do here

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Speaker 1: because they're on a really tight time frame.

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Speaker 2: I don't think so. They're actually at the start of

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Speaker 2: a process of consultation and we've given Auckland Council what

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Speaker 2: they wanted, which is they said they should make their

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Speaker 2: own choices about where and how they grow housing.

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Speaker 1: They been telling me it's really bloody fast.

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Speaker 2: Well, they've still got choice and flexibility. They're still out

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Speaker 2: there consulting. It's the start of a process and you're

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Speaker 2: seeing that public consultation taking us.

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Speaker 1: So are you guys prepared to give them a little

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Speaker 1: bit more flexibility? Allah what David Seymore was arguing.

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Speaker 2: Well, they already have huge flexibility. They've asked for flexibility

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Speaker 2: about medium density standards, they've completely changed those. They've asked

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Speaker 2: for flexibility about where intensification occurs, and they've made really

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Speaker 2: deliberate choices on a community by community basis. They've been

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Speaker 2: given flexibility about whether or not they allow for green

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Speaker 2: fees housing development or not, so they have huge amounts

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Speaker 2: of choice. This is the plan that Auckland wanted, which

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Speaker 2: was instead of central government saying here's where you should

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Speaker 2: allow for more housing, we've essentially said to Auckland you

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Speaker 2: do it where you think it makes sense, except that

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Speaker 2: where there are major public transport developments ie City rail loop,

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Speaker 2: you should be doing some intensification there. And they've agreed.

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Speaker 1: So this is a pretty flexible approach, brilliant. Hey listen,

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Speaker 1: Thank you very much, Nichola. I appreciate it as always.

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Speaker 1: That's Nicola Willis, Finance Minister. For more from Heather Duplessy

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Speaker 1: Allen Drive, Listen live to News Talk sai'd be from

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Speaker 1: four pm weekdays, or follow the podcast on iHeartRadio