1 00:00:04,559 --> 00:00:04,960 Speaker 1: Kiyota. 2 00:00:05,080 --> 00:00:08,320 Speaker 2: I'm Chelsea Daniels and this is the Front Page, a 3 00:00:08,400 --> 00:00:16,760 Speaker 2: daily podcast presented by the New Zealand Herald. Tensions are 4 00:00:16,920 --> 00:00:20,360 Speaker 2: high in the Middle East as Israel and Iran continue 5 00:00:20,400 --> 00:00:24,400 Speaker 2: to trade strikes. It comes after Israel launched a surprise 6 00:00:24,480 --> 00:00:29,360 Speaker 2: attack last Friday against multiple targets in Iran, including nuclear 7 00:00:29,480 --> 00:00:33,879 Speaker 2: and military sites. Iran has retaliated and this back and 8 00:00:33,920 --> 00:00:38,320 Speaker 2: forth shows no signs of stopping. Instead, both sides are 9 00:00:38,360 --> 00:00:42,519 Speaker 2: threatening to escalate the conflict, with major international players now 10 00:00:42,560 --> 00:00:45,479 Speaker 2: weighing in how big could this get and will. 11 00:00:45,320 --> 00:00:47,680 Speaker 1: New Zealand have to pick a side? Today? 12 00:00:47,680 --> 00:00:51,760 Speaker 2: On the Front Page, University of Otago International Relations Professor 13 00:00:51,840 --> 00:00:54,000 Speaker 2: Robert Patman is with us to take us through the 14 00:00:54,200 --> 00:01:04,160 Speaker 2: history and future of this complicated relationship. Robert, can you 15 00:01:04,160 --> 00:01:08,360 Speaker 2: give us a brief overview of the tensions between Israel 16 00:01:08,480 --> 00:01:09,080 Speaker 2: and Iran? 17 00:01:09,440 --> 00:01:14,560 Speaker 3: Basically, the tensions have been long term and since at 18 00:01:14,640 --> 00:01:18,080 Speaker 3: least two thousand and six. Mister Netna, who has been 19 00:01:18,120 --> 00:01:21,280 Speaker 3: a prominent figure in Israeli politics for the last two 20 00:01:21,319 --> 00:01:24,319 Speaker 3: and a half decades, has been one of those Israeli 21 00:01:24,400 --> 00:01:28,280 Speaker 3: leaders that has denied the prospect of political self determination 22 00:01:28,400 --> 00:01:33,160 Speaker 3: for the Palestinians, and Iran has tried to act as 23 00:01:33,160 --> 00:01:36,480 Speaker 3: a sort of counterweight to Israel in the Middle East, 24 00:01:36,880 --> 00:01:39,399 Speaker 3: if you like. Has presented itself as the leader of 25 00:01:39,440 --> 00:01:44,600 Speaker 3: the resistance front and has supported groups like Hezbullah in 26 00:01:44,680 --> 00:01:48,120 Speaker 3: Lebanon and also the Hooties in Yemen. In sure, it 27 00:01:48,160 --> 00:01:51,480 Speaker 3: has regional ambitions to spread its influence beyond Iran, but 28 00:01:51,560 --> 00:01:56,120 Speaker 3: it also has presented itself as a regional counterweight to 29 00:01:56,400 --> 00:02:02,720 Speaker 3: Nesuna who's ambitions to settle Israelis in occupied territories, and 30 00:02:02,800 --> 00:02:06,520 Speaker 3: under international law those settlements are illegal, so Netiya who 31 00:02:06,560 --> 00:02:09,560 Speaker 3: has seen Iran as a bit of a target. And 32 00:02:09,600 --> 00:02:12,440 Speaker 3: then there's been the nuclear factor Iran. It should be 33 00:02:12,480 --> 00:02:16,640 Speaker 3: explained that during the Obama period there was quite a 34 00:02:16,680 --> 00:02:22,359 Speaker 3: successful deal between Iran and the United States which postponed 35 00:02:22,400 --> 00:02:27,600 Speaker 3: the prospect of Iran developing nuclear weapons for the foreseeable future. 36 00:02:27,840 --> 00:02:32,280 Speaker 3: In return, all sanctions were lifted, and unfortunately, when mister 37 00:02:32,320 --> 00:02:35,840 Speaker 3: Trump came into power in his first term in twenty seventeen, 38 00:02:36,120 --> 00:02:40,160 Speaker 3: responded to pressure from the Nestinyahu government and withdrew from 39 00:02:40,240 --> 00:02:43,440 Speaker 3: that deal, which meant that Iran was no longer bound 40 00:02:43,639 --> 00:02:48,600 Speaker 3: not to develop nuclear weapons, and Trump believed, I suppose 41 00:02:48,680 --> 00:02:51,680 Speaker 3: he could negotiate an alternative deal, something he didn't do 42 00:02:51,800 --> 00:02:54,880 Speaker 3: in his first term, and he hasn't succeeded in his 43 00:02:55,000 --> 00:02:59,680 Speaker 3: second term. Although recently there have been negotiations between the 44 00:02:59,680 --> 00:03:04,119 Speaker 3: ira leadership and the Trump administration, and the Trump administration 45 00:03:04,560 --> 00:03:08,440 Speaker 3: has indicated that it was quite hopeful that a settlement 46 00:03:08,440 --> 00:03:12,200 Speaker 3: between Iran and the United States could be reached. Two 47 00:03:12,200 --> 00:03:16,720 Speaker 3: weeks ago, the leading negotiator for Iran said that it 48 00:03:16,760 --> 00:03:20,280 Speaker 3: was quite prepared to sign an agreement where Iran never 49 00:03:20,360 --> 00:03:25,920 Speaker 3: developed nuclear weapons in return sanctions being lifted, and also 50 00:03:26,840 --> 00:03:31,960 Speaker 3: Iran having the capability like Japan and Germany other countries 51 00:03:32,000 --> 00:03:36,080 Speaker 3: which have never developed nuclear weapons but have nuclear energy 52 00:03:36,120 --> 00:03:38,760 Speaker 3: for peaceful purposes in other words, nuclear power plant. A 53 00:03:38,800 --> 00:03:41,880 Speaker 3: sixth round of talks was scheduled Sunday, but before they 54 00:03:41,880 --> 00:03:46,880 Speaker 3: could occur, Israel has launched an attack on Iran which 55 00:03:46,920 --> 00:03:51,200 Speaker 3: can only be described as reckless, unprovoked, immoral, and illegal 56 00:03:52,440 --> 00:03:55,360 Speaker 3: under international law. So that's where we're at at the moment. 57 00:03:59,000 --> 00:04:07,600 Speaker 4: Israel's dome pummeled, bombarded by Iranian missiles, some punching through. 58 00:04:09,600 --> 00:04:12,640 Speaker 1: Wave after wave retaliation. 59 00:04:12,080 --> 00:04:17,000 Speaker 4: Strikes targeting Israeli military size, but also landing direct hits 60 00:04:17,160 --> 00:04:23,880 Speaker 4: on densely populated areas of Tel Aviv and Jerusalem, killing 61 00:04:24,000 --> 00:04:27,160 Speaker 4: at least three and enduring more than sixty. 62 00:04:30,240 --> 00:04:33,520 Speaker 2: Well, this latest attack by Israel feels like it's been 63 00:04:33,560 --> 00:04:37,040 Speaker 2: a long time coming. They've been targeting around proxies in 64 00:04:37,080 --> 00:04:40,200 Speaker 2: the region since the October seven attack. And people may 65 00:04:40,240 --> 00:04:43,560 Speaker 2: recall there was a bombing of an Iranian embassy in Damascus. 66 00:04:44,080 --> 00:04:46,960 Speaker 1: Yeah, why have they struck now after all of that, That's. 67 00:04:46,760 --> 00:04:50,599 Speaker 3: A good question. Timing is important in politics. I think 68 00:04:50,760 --> 00:04:54,479 Speaker 3: they believe that Iran has been seriously weakened because its 69 00:04:54,520 --> 00:05:00,920 Speaker 3: proxies have been materially degraded by Israel's campaign. Hamas is 70 00:05:00,960 --> 00:05:08,000 Speaker 3: an ally of Iran. It's a Palestinian organization, but it's 71 00:05:08,040 --> 00:05:11,480 Speaker 3: been degraded. Has Bulla has been degraded by the Israeli 72 00:05:11,640 --> 00:05:15,560 Speaker 3: invasion of Lebanon, and the Uti rebels has been degraded 73 00:05:15,600 --> 00:05:19,720 Speaker 3: by a combination of American and Israeli strikes. So there 74 00:05:19,720 --> 00:05:22,479 Speaker 3: may have been a perception that there will never be 75 00:05:22,560 --> 00:05:27,000 Speaker 3: a better opportunity to go after what it sees as 76 00:05:27,080 --> 00:05:31,040 Speaker 3: Iran's nuclear potential, It's potential to a nuclear weapon in 77 00:05:31,080 --> 00:05:33,760 Speaker 3: the future. Of course, it could be argued that you 78 00:05:33,839 --> 00:05:37,920 Speaker 3: can't obliterate the ability of a country to develop nuclear energy. 79 00:05:38,000 --> 00:05:40,799 Speaker 3: Wants to know how is there. I think another objective, 80 00:05:40,920 --> 00:05:43,520 Speaker 3: quite frankly, is regime change. I mean, the next you 81 00:05:43,520 --> 00:05:45,799 Speaker 3: know who government doesn't make. If you look at these strikes, 82 00:05:45,839 --> 00:05:50,640 Speaker 3: they're not just against nuclear facilities. They're attacking civil society 83 00:05:51,520 --> 00:05:56,559 Speaker 3: economic assets like oil producing scites. There's over one hundred 84 00:05:56,640 --> 00:06:02,160 Speaker 3: of them in Iran, and also they've attacked infrastructure. They've 85 00:06:02,200 --> 00:06:07,039 Speaker 3: also assassinated nuclear scientists in these strikes, and much of 86 00:06:07,080 --> 00:06:10,320 Speaker 3: the current leadership. And we know that Nesta, who recently 87 00:06:10,360 --> 00:06:13,240 Speaker 3: asked permission just a few days ago to President Trump 88 00:06:13,279 --> 00:06:17,600 Speaker 3: to assassinate the Supreme Leader. I told Holmeni that permission 89 00:06:17,640 --> 00:06:20,880 Speaker 3: was denied. But that gives an indication of what the 90 00:06:21,240 --> 00:06:23,760 Speaker 3: Israelis have in mind. But there's a couple of other 91 00:06:23,920 --> 00:06:29,720 Speaker 3: motivations which get less less consideration than denuclearizing Iran or 92 00:06:29,839 --> 00:06:34,480 Speaker 3: bringing about regime change, and that is deflecting pressure mounting pressure, 93 00:06:34,600 --> 00:06:39,839 Speaker 3: deflecting the mounting pressure on Israel over the catastrophe in Gaza. 94 00:06:40,200 --> 00:06:42,400 Speaker 3: The word catastrophe, by the way, is the word that 95 00:06:42,839 --> 00:06:45,919 Speaker 3: mister Peters, the Foreign Minster in New Zealand uses to 96 00:06:45,960 --> 00:06:50,240 Speaker 3: describe the situation, and I think another consideration here is 97 00:06:50,279 --> 00:06:53,760 Speaker 3: that mister Nessigna, who, according to Israeli critics, needs a 98 00:06:53,760 --> 00:06:57,240 Speaker 3: conflict to stay in power because he's facing significant corruption 99 00:06:57,440 --> 00:07:01,520 Speaker 3: charges which are likely to be reactive as soon as 100 00:07:01,640 --> 00:07:05,400 Speaker 3: Israel is at peace again. So while he can have 101 00:07:05,560 --> 00:07:08,120 Speaker 3: the mantle of a wartime leader, those sort of issues 102 00:07:08,120 --> 00:07:11,160 Speaker 3: don't surface too much, So you could say domestic politics 103 00:07:11,160 --> 00:07:12,840 Speaker 3: has got a role as well. Chelsea. 104 00:07:16,040 --> 00:07:18,120 Speaker 5: We are ready for any agreement whose aim is to 105 00:07:18,120 --> 00:07:21,680 Speaker 5: prevent Iran from acquiring nuclear weapons, because that is our 106 00:07:21,720 --> 00:07:24,640 Speaker 5: own doctrine. It is our own belief that nuclear weapons 107 00:07:24,680 --> 00:07:27,240 Speaker 5: are forbidden and prohibited. But if the purpose of an 108 00:07:27,280 --> 00:07:30,360 Speaker 5: agreement is to deprive Iran of its nuclear rights, then 109 00:07:30,440 --> 00:07:33,239 Speaker 5: naturally we are not prepared to accept such an agreement. 110 00:07:38,520 --> 00:07:41,120 Speaker 2: Do you think all hopes for a deal around those 111 00:07:41,200 --> 00:07:43,760 Speaker 2: nuclear weapons is off the table now completely. 112 00:07:44,040 --> 00:07:47,360 Speaker 3: Iran has been quite shrewd during this crisis. It has 113 00:07:47,440 --> 00:07:52,000 Speaker 3: reiterated it will de escalate if Israel does. But the 114 00:07:52,000 --> 00:07:54,400 Speaker 3: problem is we're not getting any leadership from the United 115 00:07:54,400 --> 00:07:57,880 Speaker 3: States at the moment. The United States, after all acknowledged 116 00:07:57,880 --> 00:08:00,800 Speaker 3: that it knew of Israel's plans, but he didn't warn 117 00:08:00,960 --> 00:08:03,880 Speaker 3: Israel not to go ahead because the United States was 118 00:08:03,920 --> 00:08:09,120 Speaker 3: conducting negotiations with Iran to end the prospect that Iran 119 00:08:09,160 --> 00:08:12,120 Speaker 3: would develop nuclear weapons, and both sides seemed to think 120 00:08:12,160 --> 00:08:13,600 Speaker 3: there was some progress going on. 121 00:08:13,800 --> 00:08:15,480 Speaker 1: Well, he said on social media. 122 00:08:15,520 --> 00:08:17,760 Speaker 2: Didn't he that the strikes occurred on day sixty one 123 00:08:17,760 --> 00:08:20,239 Speaker 2: of a sixty day deadline he gave Iran. 124 00:08:21,160 --> 00:08:23,200 Speaker 3: Didn't say to Iran, if you get to the sixty 125 00:08:23,280 --> 00:08:26,240 Speaker 3: day deadline, Israel will attack you. And I have full 126 00:08:26,360 --> 00:08:27,000 Speaker 3: knowledge of that. 127 00:08:27,240 --> 00:08:28,680 Speaker 1: Yeah, where do you reckon? He sits here? 128 00:08:28,720 --> 00:08:33,400 Speaker 3: Then he's sitting on the fence. He's demonstrating incredible weakness. 129 00:08:33,880 --> 00:08:36,240 Speaker 3: The thing he should have done is what President Eisenhower 130 00:08:36,280 --> 00:08:38,560 Speaker 3: did with the Israelis when they launched an attack on 131 00:08:38,600 --> 00:08:41,800 Speaker 3: Suez Canal in nineteen fifty six. He denounced their action 132 00:08:41,920 --> 00:08:44,679 Speaker 3: and said they must stop. But President Trump, he should 133 00:08:44,720 --> 00:08:47,920 Speaker 3: have been furious that Israel had derailed the negotiations, which 134 00:08:48,000 --> 00:08:51,840 Speaker 3: his negotiating team re engaged in, which suggests maybe the 135 00:08:51,880 --> 00:08:55,160 Speaker 3: negotiations were a bit of a charade and that they 136 00:08:55,200 --> 00:08:58,040 Speaker 3: were done to lull the Iranians into a false sense 137 00:08:58,080 --> 00:09:02,319 Speaker 3: of security. But you know, quite Frankly, the United States 138 00:09:02,360 --> 00:09:05,280 Speaker 3: comes out of this looking pretty poor, in sense that 139 00:09:05,520 --> 00:09:08,480 Speaker 3: its diplomacy appears to be duplicitous. It says it was 140 00:09:08,520 --> 00:09:11,720 Speaker 3: a negotiated solution, but it doesn't denounce an ally that 141 00:09:11,800 --> 00:09:15,160 Speaker 3: has sabotaged that prospect. It also says it may come 142 00:09:15,200 --> 00:09:18,560 Speaker 3: in on the side of Israel in the conflict that's 143 00:09:18,600 --> 00:09:22,439 Speaker 3: now occurred. Need'st be quite clear. What Israel has done 144 00:09:22,679 --> 00:09:27,520 Speaker 3: is preemptive and aggressive and illegal under international law. But 145 00:09:27,600 --> 00:09:30,920 Speaker 3: you don't hear any American diplomats expressing concern about that, 146 00:09:31,160 --> 00:09:34,360 Speaker 3: and that, of course has big implications for most countries 147 00:09:34,400 --> 00:09:35,760 Speaker 3: in the world, including her own. 148 00:09:45,160 --> 00:09:48,320 Speaker 2: The UK has already moved some fighter jets to the 149 00:09:48,360 --> 00:09:51,240 Speaker 2: Middle East, and UK Prime Minister Sir Kiir Starmer is 150 00:09:51,280 --> 00:09:55,400 Speaker 2: not rolling out helping defend Israel. China, meanwhile, has warned 151 00:09:55,440 --> 00:10:00,720 Speaker 2: against Iran's sovereignty being undermined. Are we already seeing countries 152 00:10:00,880 --> 00:10:02,400 Speaker 2: pick sides here? Well? 153 00:10:02,600 --> 00:10:05,880 Speaker 3: I think the British position is indefensible. How can you 154 00:10:05,960 --> 00:10:09,320 Speaker 3: possibly stand for a rules based order when an ally 155 00:10:09,679 --> 00:10:12,000 Speaker 3: has just driven the coach and horses through the UN 156 00:10:12,120 --> 00:10:15,680 Speaker 3: Charter as Israel has, and you're gonna you know, you 157 00:10:15,760 --> 00:10:18,840 Speaker 3: can't be one eyed about this. As a sovereign state 158 00:10:19,200 --> 00:10:23,680 Speaker 3: under Charter Article fifty one, Iran is fully entitled to 159 00:10:23,760 --> 00:10:27,000 Speaker 3: the right of self defense. But I'm hearing nothing from 160 00:10:27,000 --> 00:10:31,520 Speaker 3: the British about Israel's about Iran's right of self defense. 161 00:10:31,800 --> 00:10:35,040 Speaker 3: It's not Iran that has attacked Israel, it's the other 162 00:10:35,080 --> 00:10:39,440 Speaker 3: way around. So it's an extraordinary it's extraordinary twisted logic 163 00:10:39,920 --> 00:10:44,400 Speaker 3: where British Prime Minister says he's prepared to move military 164 00:10:44,400 --> 00:10:48,960 Speaker 3: assets to provide enhanced defense for a country which has 165 00:10:49,080 --> 00:10:52,280 Speaker 3: just attacked a regional neighbor, which is Iran. 166 00:10:52,440 --> 00:10:54,840 Speaker 2: Do you think it's hard for countries to pick sides 167 00:10:54,880 --> 00:10:58,200 Speaker 2: because it is kind of evil versus evil, so to speak. 168 00:10:58,280 --> 00:11:00,440 Speaker 1: So who's the bad guy here? Who's bad a. 169 00:11:00,679 --> 00:11:03,480 Speaker 3: Well, look, one of the reasons we have un Charter 170 00:11:03,600 --> 00:11:07,520 Speaker 3: and have rules is to help provide guidance in this situation. 171 00:11:07,640 --> 00:11:11,360 Speaker 3: But at the moment, you know, we have a situation 172 00:11:11,600 --> 00:11:16,400 Speaker 3: where there is hypocrisy and cowardice and Eisenhower President Eisenhower 173 00:11:16,400 --> 00:11:19,400 Speaker 3: was the last president, but no President Reagan also stood 174 00:11:19,480 --> 00:11:23,160 Speaker 3: up to an Israeli ally, But at the moment we're 175 00:11:23,200 --> 00:11:27,480 Speaker 3: not getting much clear and courageous leadership. What mister Necno 176 00:11:27,600 --> 00:11:31,040 Speaker 3: has done is extremely dangerous and it's reckless, to say 177 00:11:31,040 --> 00:11:33,080 Speaker 3: the least, and a lot of innocent people are being 178 00:11:33,160 --> 00:11:37,120 Speaker 3: killed as a result. And yet liberal democracies are remaining 179 00:11:37,200 --> 00:11:40,839 Speaker 3: relatively quiet, and they're playing into the hands of authoritarian 180 00:11:40,880 --> 00:11:44,320 Speaker 3: forces in doing so. So you know, there will be 181 00:11:44,360 --> 00:11:48,200 Speaker 3: a reckoning for this, and never again will countries like 182 00:11:48,240 --> 00:11:51,280 Speaker 3: Britain be able to stand up and lecture others about 183 00:11:51,400 --> 00:11:56,000 Speaker 3: human rights when in fact they are complicit in undermining 184 00:11:56,240 --> 00:11:59,319 Speaker 3: the process of state sovereignty and the country's right to 185 00:11:59,400 --> 00:12:01,480 Speaker 3: self defense by their actions. 186 00:12:01,559 --> 00:12:04,840 Speaker 2: Well, Christopher Luxen arrives in China today for his first 187 00:12:04,840 --> 00:12:08,080 Speaker 2: official trip there as Prime Minister. Would you expect this 188 00:12:08,160 --> 00:12:09,960 Speaker 2: conflict to come up today in meetings? 189 00:12:10,080 --> 00:12:13,280 Speaker 3: Yeah, I would. I mean China has basically quoting the 190 00:12:13,360 --> 00:12:17,120 Speaker 3: UN Charter and saying that Iran is the victim in 191 00:12:17,160 --> 00:12:20,320 Speaker 3: this situation. It's the country that's been attacked and I 192 00:12:20,320 --> 00:12:24,280 Speaker 3: would think that message will be conveyed quite rigorously to 193 00:12:24,440 --> 00:12:27,120 Speaker 3: New Zealand and. To be fair, the New Zealand government 194 00:12:27,360 --> 00:12:30,479 Speaker 3: I think has made some good statements in its response 195 00:12:30,760 --> 00:12:34,840 Speaker 3: to what has happened. I think Christopher Luxen said that 196 00:12:35,320 --> 00:12:38,960 Speaker 3: this was not a welcome development. There's no military solution 197 00:12:39,040 --> 00:12:43,160 Speaker 3: to political problems. This is welcome words. But I think 198 00:12:43,200 --> 00:12:46,520 Speaker 3: New Zealand also its interests are different to Britain and 199 00:12:46,559 --> 00:12:49,719 Speaker 3: the United States. Both of those countries can exercise the 200 00:12:49,800 --> 00:12:52,080 Speaker 3: VETO in the UN. We don't have a veto to 201 00:12:52,160 --> 00:12:54,840 Speaker 3: protect our interests. We trade with more than one hundred 202 00:12:54,880 --> 00:12:57,640 Speaker 3: countries in the world New Zealand and most countries in 203 00:12:57,679 --> 00:13:00,360 Speaker 3: the world, that's the great majority of countries I would say, 204 00:13:00,400 --> 00:13:02,080 Speaker 3: as high as one hundred and sixty one hundred and 205 00:13:02,080 --> 00:13:06,120 Speaker 3: eighty somewhere in that region prefer international relations to be 206 00:13:06,160 --> 00:13:10,680 Speaker 3: based on rules and principles and procedures. They do not 207 00:13:11,080 --> 00:13:15,400 Speaker 3: like the unilateral and preemptive use of force. 208 00:13:16,000 --> 00:13:19,040 Speaker 2: Where do you see this conflict going from here? I 209 00:13:19,080 --> 00:13:22,679 Speaker 2: know it's early days, but both the USA and Russia 210 00:13:22,720 --> 00:13:25,560 Speaker 2: have stakes in the region. Then there's nearby Turkey and 211 00:13:25,640 --> 00:13:29,480 Speaker 2: Saudi Arabia and also has BLA in Lebanon. There are 212 00:13:29,640 --> 00:13:32,199 Speaker 2: a lot of key players that could get involved here, 213 00:13:32,280 --> 00:13:32,679 Speaker 2: isn't there? 214 00:13:32,920 --> 00:13:36,240 Speaker 3: Yeah, and China is a key ally of Iran, and 215 00:13:37,120 --> 00:13:39,559 Speaker 3: China's been quite so far apart from saying that it's 216 00:13:39,600 --> 00:13:42,600 Speaker 3: worried about the fact that the principle of state sovereignty 217 00:13:42,640 --> 00:13:44,800 Speaker 3: has been trampled on which it has, of course, but 218 00:13:45,040 --> 00:13:49,080 Speaker 3: let's hope cooler heads prevail. There's a G seven meeting 219 00:13:49,160 --> 00:13:53,640 Speaker 3: coming up. I'm just disconcerted by the fact that we've 220 00:13:53,679 --> 00:13:57,359 Speaker 3: had little leadership from countries which should be showing leadership 221 00:13:57,440 --> 00:14:02,360 Speaker 3: on upholding key principles in relation. Let's be quite clear, 222 00:14:02,559 --> 00:14:07,520 Speaker 3: if Israel is not sanctioned or faces any consequences for 223 00:14:07,640 --> 00:14:11,240 Speaker 3: launching an unprovoked attack on another country, that sets a 224 00:14:11,400 --> 00:14:14,920 Speaker 3: very bad precedent for anyone else in the international system. 225 00:14:15,000 --> 00:14:17,800 Speaker 3: And unfortunately, in the twenty first century we've seen many 226 00:14:17,840 --> 00:14:20,840 Speaker 3: other examples where countries have done similar things. We saw 227 00:14:20,880 --> 00:14:24,320 Speaker 3: the Russian invasion of Ukraine and it made me chuckle 228 00:14:24,360 --> 00:14:27,320 Speaker 3: actually when I saw mister Putin offer his services as 229 00:14:27,320 --> 00:14:31,880 Speaker 3: a mediator between the Iran and Israelis, when in fact 230 00:14:32,040 --> 00:14:35,120 Speaker 3: he's in no position to mediate because he's already trampled 231 00:14:36,240 --> 00:14:40,000 Speaker 3: undermine the UN Charter of his actions in Ukraine. In short, 232 00:14:40,200 --> 00:14:44,360 Speaker 3: we need much more authoritative international institutions to deal with 233 00:14:44,400 --> 00:14:46,920 Speaker 3: situations which sovereign states are struggling to deal with. 234 00:14:50,440 --> 00:14:54,800 Speaker 6: Look, it's very simple, not complicated. Iran cannot have a 235 00:14:54,880 --> 00:14:57,920 Speaker 6: nuclear weapon. Other than that, I want them to be successful. 236 00:14:57,960 --> 00:15:00,560 Speaker 6: I want them to be trum, will help them be successful, 237 00:15:00,560 --> 00:15:03,720 Speaker 6: will trade with them. We'll do whatever is necessary. You know, 238 00:15:03,760 --> 00:15:09,480 Speaker 6: I stopped a war between India and Pakistan, and I 239 00:15:09,520 --> 00:15:11,680 Speaker 6: stopped it with trade. Nobody. I don't think I've ever 240 00:15:11,680 --> 00:15:14,120 Speaker 6: seen a story written about it, but it's pretty pretty cool. 241 00:15:14,120 --> 00:15:16,840 Speaker 6: They were getting ready, Pakistan was now was there, turned 242 00:15:16,840 --> 00:15:19,880 Speaker 6: ahead and eventually they're going to go nuclear and I 243 00:15:19,920 --> 00:15:23,040 Speaker 6: stopped it. I called each I respect each leader greatly, 244 00:15:23,120 --> 00:15:27,040 Speaker 6: I know them, and I spoke to them and I 245 00:15:27,080 --> 00:15:29,440 Speaker 6: talked about trade. I said, but you're not trading with 246 00:15:29,520 --> 00:15:30,840 Speaker 6: us if you're going to go to war, if you're 247 00:15:30,840 --> 00:15:34,040 Speaker 6: going to start throwing nuclear weapons around. And I said 248 00:15:34,040 --> 00:15:37,360 Speaker 6: it to both of them, and they were both unbelievable. 249 00:15:37,360 --> 00:15:39,640 Speaker 6: Actually they understood it exactly. They stopped. 250 00:15:43,960 --> 00:15:46,400 Speaker 2: Is there a moment we should be looking for, I 251 00:15:46,440 --> 00:15:48,880 Speaker 2: suppose to indicate a bad turn of events. 252 00:15:49,400 --> 00:15:54,520 Speaker 3: The current situation, to me, is unacceptable. It's unacceptable that 253 00:15:54,640 --> 00:15:57,280 Speaker 3: the United States, the most powerful country in the world, 254 00:15:57,880 --> 00:16:00,440 Speaker 3: is not giving a clear signal where it's stands on 255 00:16:00,440 --> 00:16:04,800 Speaker 3: this issue. After allways, it's equipped and provided intelligence for 256 00:16:04,880 --> 00:16:08,800 Speaker 3: an aggressive action. Launched by Israel on another country. I've 257 00:16:08,840 --> 00:16:12,360 Speaker 3: got absolutely no brief at all for the government in Iran. 258 00:16:12,600 --> 00:16:15,840 Speaker 3: It's a dictatorship and it doesn't treat its own citizens well. 259 00:16:15,920 --> 00:16:18,800 Speaker 3: But you can't apply the formula because you don't like 260 00:16:18,840 --> 00:16:21,840 Speaker 3: a government that you're free to replace it or try 261 00:16:21,880 --> 00:16:25,640 Speaker 3: to replace it. After all, many authoritarian states don't like 262 00:16:25,800 --> 00:16:29,360 Speaker 3: liberal democracies, and so you know, the world be reduced 263 00:16:29,360 --> 00:16:33,800 Speaker 3: to absolute chaos if regime change was regarded as a 264 00:16:33,880 --> 00:16:38,760 Speaker 3: legitimate tool of foreign policy. It's not. And ultimately, my 265 00:16:38,960 --> 00:16:44,120 Speaker 3: concern about the current situation is that conflict will escalate. 266 00:16:44,360 --> 00:16:47,840 Speaker 3: And my view is that the plight of the Palestinians 267 00:16:48,560 --> 00:16:52,640 Speaker 3: has been it worsened by this situation. Israel has cut 268 00:16:52,720 --> 00:16:55,880 Speaker 3: off aid again to the Gaza. The other thing here 269 00:16:56,000 --> 00:16:59,000 Speaker 3: is and it needs to be openly discussed. There is 270 00:16:59,040 --> 00:17:02,640 Speaker 3: no military fear for political problems. Why hasn't met and 271 00:17:03,240 --> 00:17:06,199 Speaker 3: not been insisting on a meeting with hers leadership to 272 00:17:06,240 --> 00:17:08,760 Speaker 3: try and sort these problems out. He can eliminate the 273 00:17:08,760 --> 00:17:12,560 Speaker 3: whole of the Iranian government, but they will be replaced 274 00:17:12,800 --> 00:17:15,879 Speaker 3: and many people will have memories of family relatives killed 275 00:17:16,040 --> 00:17:19,880 Speaker 3: who didn't like the Iranian government but were nevertheless killed 276 00:17:19,920 --> 00:17:22,720 Speaker 3: by Israel's actions. That's not going to generate good will 277 00:17:22,760 --> 00:17:26,320 Speaker 3: towards Israel. And in short, there is not an engineering 278 00:17:26,440 --> 00:17:30,359 Speaker 3: or military solution to political problems. Those problems can only 279 00:17:30,400 --> 00:17:35,320 Speaker 3: be resolved through dialogue and discussion. They may be very 280 00:17:35,320 --> 00:17:39,400 Speaker 3: tough talks to have, but the alternatives don't work very 281 00:17:39,400 --> 00:17:42,680 Speaker 3: well either. We see escalating conflict with lots of civilian, 282 00:17:42,680 --> 00:17:46,359 Speaker 3: innocent civilians being killed on both sides, and that is 283 00:17:46,880 --> 00:17:49,680 Speaker 3: a terrible outcome. Yes, we should be worried about where 284 00:17:49,680 --> 00:17:52,439 Speaker 3: this is going. None of us really know where it's going. 285 00:17:52,920 --> 00:17:57,080 Speaker 3: I'm hoping that the efforts of countries like Saudi Arabia 286 00:17:57,160 --> 00:18:01,879 Speaker 3: and Turkey will weigh I know that mister Erdowan and 287 00:18:01,960 --> 00:18:05,520 Speaker 3: the Saudi government have spoken to mister Trump, and you know, 288 00:18:05,840 --> 00:18:10,080 Speaker 3: it's important. I think that other liberal dromocracies speak out 289 00:18:10,440 --> 00:18:12,880 Speaker 3: and don't just take the lead from the United States 290 00:18:13,440 --> 00:18:16,920 Speaker 3: and the British because both of them seem to me 291 00:18:17,359 --> 00:18:21,640 Speaker 3: very compromised on this issue. They're not disinterested observers, they 292 00:18:21,720 --> 00:18:25,159 Speaker 3: are committed to Israel. Both of them have provided arms 293 00:18:25,560 --> 00:18:29,240 Speaker 3: for mister Netnahu's campaign in Gaza. But there are a 294 00:18:29,320 --> 00:18:32,280 Speaker 3: number of other liberal democracies like our own New Zealand 295 00:18:32,520 --> 00:18:36,760 Speaker 3: consistently sought an immediate cease fire. On the twenty third 296 00:18:36,760 --> 00:18:40,200 Speaker 3: of October twenty twenty three, we were the only member 297 00:18:40,200 --> 00:18:43,040 Speaker 3: of the Five Eyes that voted for an immediate humanitarian 298 00:18:43,280 --> 00:18:47,400 Speaker 3: truce in Gaza. We were subsequently joined in that mission 299 00:18:47,560 --> 00:18:52,080 Speaker 3: or that quest, by Canada and Australia. Two months later 300 00:18:52,920 --> 00:18:58,159 Speaker 3: they join New Zealand in demanding a permanent ceasefire in Gaza. 301 00:18:58,200 --> 00:19:01,240 Speaker 3: But it's very important, I think, I think that countries 302 00:19:01,280 --> 00:19:04,199 Speaker 3: like New Zealand do make it clear where they stand 303 00:19:04,400 --> 00:19:07,680 Speaker 3: because these are you know, at the moment, this situation 304 00:19:07,800 --> 00:19:11,400 Speaker 3: is escalating, and the weaponry on both sides is horrific, 305 00:19:12,040 --> 00:19:17,520 Speaker 3: and we do need to conduct international relations on the 306 00:19:17,520 --> 00:19:20,399 Speaker 3: basis of rules and principles rather than a Wild West 307 00:19:20,440 --> 00:19:23,640 Speaker 3: situation where the guys with the biggest guns feel they're 308 00:19:23,760 --> 00:19:25,400 Speaker 3: entitled to do what they want to do. 309 00:19:25,680 --> 00:19:27,040 Speaker 1: Thanks for joining us, Robert. 310 00:19:27,200 --> 00:19:27,560 Speaker 3: Thank you. 311 00:19:31,040 --> 00:19:34,159 Speaker 2: That's it for this episode of The Front Page. You 312 00:19:34,200 --> 00:19:38,000 Speaker 2: can read more about today's stories and extensive news coverage 313 00:19:38,040 --> 00:19:42,080 Speaker 2: at enzdherld dot co dot nz. The Front Page is 314 00:19:42,080 --> 00:19:45,840 Speaker 2: produced by Ethan Sills and Richard Martin, who is also 315 00:19:46,000 --> 00:19:47,080 Speaker 2: our sound engineer. 316 00:19:47,560 --> 00:19:49,080 Speaker 1: I'm Chelsea Daniels. 317 00:19:49,640 --> 00:19:52,800 Speaker 2: Subscribe to the front page on iHeartRadio or wherever you 318 00:19:52,840 --> 00:19:56,640 Speaker 2: get your podcasts, and tune in tomorrow for another look 319 00:19:56,680 --> 00:19:58,000 Speaker 2: behind the headlines.