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Speaker 1: The huddle with New Zealand Southeby's International Realty Find You're

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Speaker 1: one of the kind. Rob Campbell, aut chancellor and former

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Speaker 1: Boss of Health, ends edits with us tonight. Hey Rob, Hey, Ryan,

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Speaker 1: how are you good? Thank you? Jordan Williams is here

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Speaker 1: two Taxpayers Union evening. Jordan.

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Speaker 2: Get a Ryan.

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Speaker 1: Now let's start with I don't even know whether well, yeah,

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Speaker 1: the local election thing, just because we're talking to next Smith.

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Speaker 1: For me, it's a no brainer, and I would rather

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Speaker 1: I didn't even ask him how much it costs, because honestly,

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Speaker 1: I just don't care. I think local government is the

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Speaker 1: neglected poor cousin of central government, and that's because no

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Speaker 1: one bothers to vote for it, and we should be.

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Speaker 1: So anything they can do to help robody reckon.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, I think anything we can do to get those

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Speaker 2: numbers up is really good. Obviously, Postal voting is a

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Speaker 2: thing of history. Really, as long as they make a

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Speaker 2: real effort to get out into communities to make it

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Speaker 2: easy for people to get to vote and explain it, well,

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Speaker 2: I'm fully in favor of making that change. I understand

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Speaker 2: Marise are quite good at collecting votes. Ryan that much.

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Speaker 2: Another way to go about it and.

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Speaker 1: To copy them. Wait, was that a joke, Rob, I'm without.

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Speaker 2: Oh you know me, Ryan, it was partly a no.

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Speaker 2: A are actually very good at doing that kind of thing.

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Speaker 2: And one thing I did object to about what Nick

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Speaker 2: Smith was saying was that orange man and his dog

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Speaker 2: annoyed the hell out of me. I prefer to have

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Speaker 2: the stick man that does the supermarket ads personally do.

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Speaker 1: I'm not even sure we can call it a man

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Speaker 1: these days either, because it didn't have any genitalia. So

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Speaker 1: it's very unsure, very uncertain, Jordan, what do you reckon?

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Speaker 2: This is getting a bit intellectual for me.

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Speaker 3: Of course, my understanding was we moved postal voting to

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Speaker 3: increase turnout. I think it's a strange argument that al

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Speaker 3: Jean's in are making, but I actually support the measure.

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Speaker 3: The bigger question around postal voting the integrity and security

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Speaker 3: of the system. I suspect requiring people to turn up

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Speaker 3: like national elections may actually reduce turnout, but if it

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Speaker 3: means you've got more confidence in the end result. And

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Speaker 3: there's been a few examples in recent years where real,

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Speaker 3: just private facing, you know, things really haven't looked right,

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Speaker 3: and there's been suspicions of funny business.

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Speaker 1: That's worthwhile.

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Speaker 3: But of course it's logical that local body turnout would

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Speaker 3: be lower because until you own property, you don't really

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Speaker 3: have the main interface with local government, and that is

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Speaker 3: paying right.

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Speaker 1: No, I get that, But you're saying, if it's take

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Speaker 1: away the postal and go into your local town hall,

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Speaker 1: that would lower turnout. I think it would. I would

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Speaker 1: anything it would increase turnout, or at least stay the

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Speaker 1: same moment. I can't think of anyone in my life

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Speaker 1: like my grandma. She does voting, but she would just

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Speaker 1: go into the town hall.

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Speaker 2: You know.

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Speaker 3: The idea was that it gave you longer to vote.

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Speaker 3: You know that you got it in the mail. You

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Speaker 3: could do it at any time. The thing is having

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Speaker 3: an election day, we have to go along and on

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Speaker 3: a certain day. The idea was when we moved to

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Speaker 3: postal voting, that it would increase turnout. I think it's

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Speaker 3: strange to make the same argument going back, although having

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Speaker 3: said that, I mean, you're right, we post.

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Speaker 1: This conflicted today, Jordan, don't you.

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Speaker 2: Of course, Jordan, I guess if we prioritize the post

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Speaker 2: office should be happy because it'll be generating income for it.

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Speaker 1: Wouldn't there we go. We'll come back in a second

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Speaker 1: because I want to ask you both about I'm really

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Speaker 1: genuinely interested to get to the bottom of what's going

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Speaker 1: on with our bows screening program and whether the role

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Speaker 1: of the health system is to try and save the

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Speaker 1: biggest number you know, that have the best impact on

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Speaker 1: the largest number of people or not. Rob Campbell and

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Speaker 1: Jordan Williams. Next the huddle with.

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Speaker 3: New Zealand Southeby's International Realty the ones with Local and

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Speaker 3: Global Reach.

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Speaker 1: News Talk ZB. It is quarter to six. Now the

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Speaker 1: government is lowering the age for everybody for bow screening,

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Speaker 1: for bow cancer screening to fifty eight. Now, that is

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Speaker 1: an expensive thing to do. To do that, they have

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Speaker 1: a cutting a program that had lowered the age for

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Speaker 1: Marty and Pacifica down to fifty. I asked Simeon Brown

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Speaker 1: last week. Are Marty and Pacifica more predisposed to bow cancer?

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Speaker 1: And this is what he said.

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Speaker 2: No.

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Speaker 4: The advice is that bow cancer risk is similar similar

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Speaker 4: across all population groups at the same age, so that

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Speaker 4: that's the even right that we've presented by the Ministry

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Speaker 4: of Health.

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Speaker 1: Now, Rob Campbell, aut Chancellor, the former Health and Z

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Speaker 1: Boss Jordan Williams. Taxpayers in there on the huddle tonight, guys,

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Speaker 1: welcome back. So we've had physicians come out today and

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Speaker 1: say the Royal Australia College A physicians say that's not

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Speaker 1: the case. What do you make of this, Rob.

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Speaker 2: Well, either the Minister has misinterpreted what the Ministry was saying,

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Speaker 2: or the ministry was not telling him the truth. There's

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Speaker 2: only those two possibilities. The idea and the policy which

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Speaker 2: was adopted of the lower age for mary and Pacifica

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Speaker 2: came as a result of years of research across a

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Speaker 2: whole wide range of researchers. It was not an ideological thing.

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Speaker 2: It was a health decision that we now know that

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Speaker 2: if Maria Pacifica are not getting that earlier bowl screening

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Speaker 2: more mari and Pacifica people will die. That's a fact.

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Speaker 2: That's just a fact. There's no guesswork in that, there's

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Speaker 2: no modeling involved in it. I don't know what piece

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Speaker 2: of modeling the Minister got the Ministry to do. I

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Speaker 2: hope that the Ministry didn't pander to him in terms

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Speaker 2: of the policy he wanted to adopt, although we are

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Speaker 2: seeing signs of that across the public service. But there's

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Speaker 2: no question at all, there would be no reputable health

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Speaker 2: professional who will argue that the change that has been

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Speaker 2: made does not lead to more Mari and pacifica men

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Speaker 2: dying in bell cancer.

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Speaker 3: Now, well that's the interest, so Jordan, the question is

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Speaker 3: whether that's a genetic predisposition. I think we all all

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Speaker 3: agree on that, and I don't clearly. I mean, I

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Speaker 3: push a pen run for a living on a lawyer

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Speaker 3: by background, I don't know the.

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Speaker 1: Answer to that.

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Speaker 3: I asked Ai before coming on here, knowing this would

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Speaker 3: come up. And the evidence does look pretty mixed, less

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Speaker 3: so with Mara, but particularly with Pacific communities according to

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Speaker 3: a chap GBT. But I mean, you would certainly hope

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Speaker 3: that the advice the minister is getting isn't politicized. I

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Speaker 3: suspect though. The issue is there are areas of health

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Speaker 3: where there's not genetic predispositions, but still some racial preference

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Speaker 3: is and I think that drives a bit of a

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Speaker 3: mistrust in this issue, which is why we have the

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Speaker 3: sitt of debate, because I think most people would agree that,

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Speaker 3: you know, in the health is one of the few

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Speaker 3: areas where race can make a difference in terms of

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Speaker 3: the necessity or eligibility to public services. That is an

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Speaker 3: evidential question though, and I mean you would hope you

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Speaker 3: What can the minister do other than rely on officials?

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Speaker 2: And that's a bit the minister asking the ministry is

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Speaker 2: a bit like the way you asked chatch Pete question,

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Speaker 2: doesn't it. And if he framed the question the right

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Speaker 2: way anticipating the well.

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Speaker 3: We don't know that, I mean, and why would you

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Speaker 3: frame him?

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Speaker 2: Some of the ministry suddenly reverse years of research and

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Speaker 2: years of its own advice.

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Speaker 1: Well, we have asked the come back to us and

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Speaker 1: tell us, you know, to explain themselves basicly. But what

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Speaker 1: one thing he did save?

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Speaker 2: Having some difficulty, aren't they?

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Speaker 1: Yeah, Rob, What he did say is that their modeling

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Speaker 1: showed that you would save an additional by making it

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Speaker 1: lower for everyone. You would save an additional one hundred

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Speaker 1: and seventy six lives over twenty five years. So it's

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Speaker 1: possible that that you're both right, that you are that

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Speaker 1: you might be costing more Maori and Pacifica lives, but

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Speaker 1: overall you are saving more lives. Now that the question

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Speaker 1: is is that what a health system should do?

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Speaker 2: We know what a health system should do is what

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Speaker 2: people always keep telling us that people should be treated

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Speaker 2: according to their health needs. And we know that in

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Speaker 2: respect to bowel cancer and screening, the health needs of

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Speaker 2: different groups of people are different. You do not create

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Speaker 2: equity by treating people all the same when their circumstances

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Speaker 2: are not the same. That's the whole skill in clinical treatment,

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Speaker 2: it's the whole skill in a GP's office, is to

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Speaker 2: know what kind of treatment what should be offered people

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Speaker 2: in different situations. So this whole idea that people are

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Speaker 2: just numbers, that we're all absolutely equivalent and it's the

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Speaker 2: best just to treat us all the same way is

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Speaker 2: really just outrageously against everything with healthcare, rob you or not.

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Speaker 3: You may you may differ, though the degree to which

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Speaker 3: race can be quite a blunt instrument on that, and

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Speaker 3: that's why it depends on what condition you're talking about

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Speaker 3: and whether there is a genuine predisposition. Ryan, Just in

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Speaker 3: relation to your question about sort of saving more lives,

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Speaker 3: Health has quite a good I haven't actually dealt with

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Speaker 3: them much in recent years, but they used to have

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Speaker 3: a very good economics team in the quite a sophisticated modeling,

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Speaker 3: a lot like ACC in terms of determining these sorts

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Speaker 3: of trade offs between years of life and quality of life.

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Speaker 3: That's unfortunately, you know, bread and butter of public policy

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Speaker 3: people and health they do have they do model that

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Speaker 3: and they do it every day.

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Speaker 1: All right, we'll leave it there. Go Rob. Did you

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Speaker 1: go down to the investment summit today?

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Speaker 3: No?

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Speaker 2: I didn't get my invite. But I mean, that's I'm

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Speaker 2: finding it extremely amusing. I mean, the idea that it's

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Speaker 2: some kind of victory to have people come here. If

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Speaker 2: you put an a out and say we'd like to

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Speaker 2: sell things, typically people turn up who like buying things.

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Speaker 2: And so of course there are lots of people there

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Speaker 2: with lots of money. They're scouring the world every day

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Speaker 2: to find good investment opportunities. So they would have come,

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Speaker 2: as they do, to look at these sorts of things,

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Speaker 2: and it's no surprise that some of them will light

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Speaker 2: up and but on things of the government office, and

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Speaker 2: of course they will else would.

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Speaker 1: It's not well, then it's not a bad thing, is it, Jordan?

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Speaker 3: No, No, wait and see what comes out the other

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Speaker 3: end of it. I mean, if it looks to be

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Speaker 3: really a focus just around PPPs, which is really just

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Speaker 3: that the devil is always in the detail as to

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Speaker 3: who carries what risks and whether that's There are clearly

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Speaker 3: upsides of well managed PPPs, but look, they also can

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Speaker 3: go wrong.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, you think Jordan and I have one slogan we

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Speaker 2: can agree on, which and this idea that somehow governments

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Speaker 2: can avoid the cost of things by creating PPPs is

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Speaker 2: what it's called a free lunch and it doesn't exist.

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Speaker 1: Unless you're at school.

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Speaker 3: Well, if it's a finance, it's a financing tool and

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Speaker 3: you got guaranteed revenue going for there are I disagree

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Speaker 3: with that. There are some advantages, especially if you are

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Speaker 3: able to deliver the same piece of infrastructure for cheaper

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Speaker 3: than what the government can do if it manages itself.

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Speaker 1: All right, and we can't go into the ins and

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Speaker 1: outs of PPPs right now, we're running out of time,

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Speaker 1: but fascinating discussion. Guys, really appreciate you coming on, especially

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Speaker 1: the talk chat about how

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Speaker 3: For more from Hither Duplessy Alan Drive Listen live to

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Speaker 3: news talks it'd be from four pm weekdays, or follow

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Speaker 3: the podcast on iHeartRadio.