1 00:00:00,080 --> 00:00:03,640 Speaker 1: Kyodo Koto hints up that this episode of Heaven's Helpline 2 00:00:03,800 --> 00:00:07,800 Speaker 1: deals with domestic abuse and child abuse. There's nothing too graphic, 3 00:00:08,080 --> 00:00:12,120 Speaker 1: but it's still pretty disturbing, so take care when listening 4 00:00:12,560 --> 00:00:14,760 Speaker 1: and see the show notes for support services. 5 00:00:16,680 --> 00:00:20,520 Speaker 2: Okay, you're on air. As it were, it was mid 6 00:00:20,680 --> 00:00:24,959 Speaker 2: twenty twenty two, and I was still reeling from Caroline's story. 7 00:00:25,840 --> 00:00:29,120 Speaker 2: Quite apart from her horrific abuse, I couldn't get over 8 00:00:29,280 --> 00:00:31,880 Speaker 2: how the leaders of the Olds Church put her in 9 00:00:31,920 --> 00:00:35,879 Speaker 2: a small room with her abusive husband and demanded that 10 00:00:35,920 --> 00:00:36,640 Speaker 2: she forgive him. 11 00:00:36,720 --> 00:00:36,920 Speaker 3: Great. 12 00:00:36,960 --> 00:00:40,159 Speaker 2: Can you hear me? Okay, hear well? Caroline's story or 13 00:00:40,159 --> 00:00:42,559 Speaker 2: one off just beyond speaker on my new phone. I 14 00:00:42,640 --> 00:00:45,959 Speaker 2: wanted to understand more about how the church responds when 15 00:00:45,960 --> 00:00:49,440 Speaker 2: its members are in crisis, so I talked to more 16 00:00:49,479 --> 00:00:51,920 Speaker 2: Mormons and ex Mormons around the country. 17 00:00:52,000 --> 00:00:52,839 Speaker 4: You have arrived. 18 00:00:53,720 --> 00:00:57,600 Speaker 2: It became clear that Caroline's experience with the LDS Church 19 00:00:58,160 --> 00:01:01,800 Speaker 2: was far from unique. And as I heard all these 20 00:01:01,880 --> 00:01:07,280 Speaker 2: new stories, every single one, one way or another, involved 21 00:01:07,440 --> 00:01:09,320 Speaker 2: a bishop, and the bishop rocked up. 22 00:01:09,600 --> 00:01:11,840 Speaker 3: That bishop was obviously righteous. 23 00:01:12,200 --> 00:01:15,600 Speaker 2: The stories I was hearing were about financial struggles. 24 00:01:15,800 --> 00:01:17,480 Speaker 4: You went to the bishop, you see I can't pay 25 00:01:17,520 --> 00:01:19,000 Speaker 4: my powerbill. 26 00:01:18,720 --> 00:01:20,360 Speaker 2: And relationship troubles. 27 00:01:20,440 --> 00:01:23,039 Speaker 5: I did eventually go to my bishop about feeling like 28 00:01:23,080 --> 00:01:24,680 Speaker 5: I had married the wrong person. 29 00:01:24,640 --> 00:01:28,480 Speaker 2: But also more accounts of horrific abuse. 30 00:01:28,880 --> 00:01:34,080 Speaker 5: I remember going to the bishop after he had hit 31 00:01:34,200 --> 00:01:36,039 Speaker 5: me of confessions. 32 00:01:36,240 --> 00:01:38,399 Speaker 6: If they're truly penitent, they'll go to the. 33 00:01:38,400 --> 00:01:42,400 Speaker 2: Bishop and protection of the perpetrators. 34 00:01:41,720 --> 00:01:44,000 Speaker 5: Giving him the power to feel like he hadn't done 35 00:01:44,040 --> 00:01:44,840 Speaker 5: anything wrong. 36 00:01:45,040 --> 00:01:47,880 Speaker 6: All we've done is we've moved him from one area 37 00:01:48,160 --> 00:01:48,760 Speaker 6: to another. 38 00:01:49,440 --> 00:01:53,680 Speaker 2: It surprised me how central bishops were to all these stories, 39 00:01:54,320 --> 00:02:00,640 Speaker 2: from the smallest problem to the most catastrophic. Mary Jones 40 00:02:00,960 --> 00:02:12,080 Speaker 2: and you're listening to Heaven's Helpline, episode three, the Bishop's Tale. 41 00:02:12,120 --> 00:02:15,239 Speaker 2: In the Mormon Church, there's a huge emphasis on service. 42 00:02:15,639 --> 00:02:19,720 Speaker 2: Nearly every active adult member has a calling, and everyone 43 00:02:19,760 --> 00:02:23,920 Speaker 2: knows their place in a complex hierarchy. There's so many layers, 44 00:02:23,960 --> 00:02:28,160 Speaker 2: from state presidents to relief Society general officers to the 45 00:02:28,280 --> 00:02:31,560 Speaker 2: Quorum of the Twelve Apostles. But I'm going to focus 46 00:02:31,560 --> 00:02:33,960 Speaker 2: here on the responsibilities of the bishop. 47 00:02:34,320 --> 00:02:37,280 Speaker 7: Saturday essentially as the day that you have to get 48 00:02:37,320 --> 00:02:39,560 Speaker 7: ready for the most important other way Coature Sunday, and 49 00:02:39,600 --> 00:02:41,160 Speaker 7: then on Sunday was the busiest day. 50 00:02:41,760 --> 00:02:44,480 Speaker 2: This is Quentin Howard, But. 51 00:02:44,639 --> 00:02:46,720 Speaker 7: Try to leave Homer on five for three in the morning. 52 00:02:46,919 --> 00:02:51,200 Speaker 7: I've got meetings, running church services, going to classes, holding 53 00:02:51,240 --> 00:02:52,600 Speaker 7: interviews all day long. 54 00:02:54,520 --> 00:02:57,760 Speaker 2: For two years in the early twenty tens, Quentin was 55 00:02:57,840 --> 00:03:00,919 Speaker 2: bishop of the Wellington Ward of the Church of Jesus 56 00:03:01,040 --> 00:03:02,960 Speaker 2: Christ of Latter day Saints. 57 00:03:04,800 --> 00:03:07,560 Speaker 7: So from my early twenties I was in church leadership. 58 00:03:08,120 --> 00:03:10,520 Speaker 2: I first talked to Quentin when I was investigating the 59 00:03:10,560 --> 00:03:14,720 Speaker 2: finances of the Olds Church. But as I started researching 60 00:03:14,760 --> 00:03:17,639 Speaker 2: this podcast, I realized I really needed to talk to 61 00:03:17,720 --> 00:03:21,320 Speaker 2: Quentin again and ask him some more targeted questions about 62 00:03:21,360 --> 00:03:25,120 Speaker 2: what it meant to be a Mormon bishop, the motivation, 63 00:03:25,680 --> 00:03:28,919 Speaker 2: the challenges, and some of the heavy responsibilities. 64 00:03:29,200 --> 00:03:31,480 Speaker 7: So these people would come to my office and we'll 65 00:03:31,480 --> 00:03:33,200 Speaker 7: talk about whether or not they're having success out of 66 00:03:33,240 --> 00:03:35,320 Speaker 7: marriage and whether or not they're in good space of 67 00:03:35,400 --> 00:03:36,280 Speaker 7: their relationships. 68 00:03:37,760 --> 00:03:40,760 Speaker 2: So the basic unit of the Mormon congregation is called 69 00:03:40,800 --> 00:03:43,760 Speaker 2: a ward. In New Zealand, they average around one hundred 70 00:03:43,760 --> 00:03:46,880 Speaker 2: and fifty to two hundred active members. Each ward has 71 00:03:46,920 --> 00:03:50,880 Speaker 2: its own bishop. This man, always a man, remember, has 72 00:03:50,920 --> 00:03:52,960 Speaker 2: a couple of other chaps to help him out called 73 00:03:53,080 --> 00:03:56,320 Speaker 2: first counselor and second counselor, and the three of them 74 00:03:56,320 --> 00:04:00,520 Speaker 2: together are known as the ward bishopric. And being a 75 00:04:00,560 --> 00:04:05,320 Speaker 2: bishop is a big job. In Quentin's case, essentially it 76 00:04:05,320 --> 00:04:08,760 Speaker 2: was another forty hours a week, unpaid, on top of 77 00:04:08,800 --> 00:04:13,000 Speaker 2: his regular full time job. There was admin like dropping 78 00:04:13,040 --> 00:04:15,720 Speaker 2: tides off at the bank. There were youth activities to 79 00:04:15,800 --> 00:04:16,920 Speaker 2: run several nights a week. 80 00:04:17,000 --> 00:04:19,760 Speaker 7: We try to keep them entertained in off the streets. 81 00:04:19,839 --> 00:04:22,719 Speaker 2: There were lots of leadership meetings. There were events to 82 00:04:22,839 --> 00:04:27,400 Speaker 2: organize and run. Sometimes Quentin was part of a disciplinary council. 83 00:04:27,680 --> 00:04:29,760 Speaker 7: If you do something really serious, you can go to 84 00:04:29,760 --> 00:04:32,680 Speaker 7: what's called a disciplinary council or sometimes as a church court, 85 00:04:33,160 --> 00:04:35,560 Speaker 7: but essentially about fifteen men in a room and you 86 00:04:35,600 --> 00:04:37,920 Speaker 7: have to confuse what you've done and they decide how 87 00:04:37,960 --> 00:04:39,080 Speaker 7: you'll be treated. 88 00:04:39,400 --> 00:04:42,960 Speaker 2: And perhaps the biggest time suck. As a bishop, Quentin 89 00:04:43,080 --> 00:04:45,839 Speaker 2: was expected to have direct one on one time with 90 00:04:46,080 --> 00:04:49,239 Speaker 2: just about all of the two hundred people in his ward. 91 00:04:50,040 --> 00:04:52,560 Speaker 2: As a Mormon, you're only allowed to go to the 92 00:04:52,600 --> 00:04:56,040 Speaker 2: temple if you've got something called a temple recommend which 93 00:04:56,040 --> 00:04:58,719 Speaker 2: is basically a small id document with a barcode to 94 00:04:58,760 --> 00:05:02,200 Speaker 2: say you're allowed in, but to receive your temple recommend 95 00:05:02,480 --> 00:05:04,720 Speaker 2: you have to have an annual interview with your bishop 96 00:05:05,080 --> 00:05:09,120 Speaker 2: where he assesses whether you're worthy. It's literally called a 97 00:05:09,160 --> 00:05:13,720 Speaker 2: worthiness interview, and they consume a lot of a bishop's time. 98 00:05:14,000 --> 00:05:16,800 Speaker 7: I would be in my office at the church. It's 99 00:05:16,839 --> 00:05:18,440 Speaker 7: just a room with a desk in it, and it's 100 00:05:18,440 --> 00:05:21,279 Speaker 7: a couple of cheers and some books and scriptures and 101 00:05:21,320 --> 00:05:25,280 Speaker 7: things that come in. The door would be closed, and 102 00:05:25,600 --> 00:05:28,960 Speaker 7: it was best sally an opportunity to ask them questions 103 00:05:28,960 --> 00:05:30,840 Speaker 7: about how they were living their life and whether they 104 00:05:30,880 --> 00:05:33,599 Speaker 7: are worthy to go to the temple, whether they're worthy 105 00:05:33,640 --> 00:05:34,720 Speaker 7: to be baptized. 106 00:05:35,680 --> 00:05:38,000 Speaker 2: It was a way of checking in with your congregation. 107 00:05:38,680 --> 00:05:41,880 Speaker 2: But there are also specific questions to be asked. Do 108 00:05:41,920 --> 00:05:44,760 Speaker 2: you believe in God? Are you following the word of wisdom? 109 00:05:45,080 --> 00:05:48,279 Speaker 2: Remember that's the rules around avoiding drinking and smoking and 110 00:05:48,320 --> 00:05:51,719 Speaker 2: tea and coffee and Coca cola. Break the word of 111 00:05:51,760 --> 00:05:54,720 Speaker 2: wisdom and you're not meant to be in the temple. 112 00:05:55,080 --> 00:05:57,760 Speaker 7: Sometimes people come to me and say, look, I have 113 00:05:57,839 --> 00:06:00,640 Speaker 7: to confess it. You know, I work life long hours 114 00:06:00,720 --> 00:06:02,279 Speaker 7: and when I get up for my shift and wanting 115 00:06:02,320 --> 00:06:04,760 Speaker 7: to have a cup of coffee at work, so I'd 116 00:06:04,760 --> 00:06:07,600 Speaker 7: count them and help them find ways to change those behaviors. 117 00:06:07,839 --> 00:06:10,279 Speaker 2: Plus, you couldn't go to the temple if you were 118 00:06:10,760 --> 00:06:16,080 Speaker 2: straying sexually. This included cheating on your spouse, having impure thoughts, 119 00:06:16,600 --> 00:06:22,159 Speaker 2: watching pornography, or masturbating. Also, Quentin would be advising people 120 00:06:22,200 --> 00:06:26,320 Speaker 2: who confess to same sex attractions too well basically pull 121 00:06:26,400 --> 00:06:27,200 Speaker 2: themselves together. 122 00:06:27,560 --> 00:06:30,200 Speaker 7: I was trying to help them find ways of suppressing 123 00:06:30,760 --> 00:06:33,039 Speaker 7: who they were attracted to, and essentially I was saying 124 00:06:33,080 --> 00:06:35,800 Speaker 7: to them, yes, I know that you feel deep love 125 00:06:35,839 --> 00:06:38,120 Speaker 7: for that person, be not allowed to feel dead, so 126 00:06:38,160 --> 00:06:38,880 Speaker 7: don't act on it. 127 00:06:39,160 --> 00:06:41,880 Speaker 2: This is something he deeply regrets now. 128 00:06:42,000 --> 00:06:44,080 Speaker 7: Two of those men I have reached out to you 129 00:06:44,200 --> 00:06:45,640 Speaker 7: since and apologized. 130 00:06:46,360 --> 00:06:50,880 Speaker 2: Conversations about sexuality had to happen, even with the younger 131 00:06:50,880 --> 00:06:51,719 Speaker 2: members of the ward. 132 00:06:52,240 --> 00:06:54,560 Speaker 7: It was essential for me to ask them about the 133 00:06:54,600 --> 00:06:58,360 Speaker 7: law of chestity, and on some occasions that meant I 134 00:06:58,400 --> 00:07:02,320 Speaker 7: was asking them specific questions about whether they had sexu 135 00:07:02,320 --> 00:07:05,360 Speaker 7: relations with others, and also about whether they were masturbating. 136 00:07:06,120 --> 00:07:10,120 Speaker 7: And that on affection is so gross. You know, I'm 137 00:07:10,280 --> 00:07:12,840 Speaker 7: an old man talking to these young teens in the 138 00:07:12,880 --> 00:07:16,960 Speaker 7: privacy of my office. And I was trying to be 139 00:07:17,760 --> 00:07:20,840 Speaker 7: as kind and given the space to express how they 140 00:07:20,840 --> 00:07:23,440 Speaker 7: wanted to. But even then, it's still horrible to think 141 00:07:23,440 --> 00:07:25,760 Speaker 7: that there was what I did, and it's just part 142 00:07:25,800 --> 00:07:27,679 Speaker 7: of the expectations of a bishop. 143 00:07:27,880 --> 00:07:31,560 Speaker 2: Even to today, these things trouble him now, but back then, 144 00:07:31,720 --> 00:07:35,040 Speaker 2: Quentin just got on with his bishop duties, which for 145 00:07:35,120 --> 00:07:39,000 Speaker 2: better or for worse, included getting right inside the lives 146 00:07:39,120 --> 00:07:40,239 Speaker 2: of the people in his ward. 147 00:07:44,480 --> 00:07:48,080 Speaker 8: A bishop is a very hands on calling in the church. 148 00:07:48,600 --> 00:07:51,480 Speaker 2: Ganesh Charrion was also a bishop in the Wellington Ward 149 00:07:51,600 --> 00:07:55,680 Speaker 2: for six years. He's still in the church now. Like Quentin, 150 00:07:55,920 --> 00:07:58,240 Speaker 2: he found the job a huge commitment of his time 151 00:07:58,280 --> 00:07:58,800 Speaker 2: and energy. 152 00:07:59,120 --> 00:08:02,600 Speaker 8: If there was a christ I needed to front up 153 00:08:02,640 --> 00:08:05,800 Speaker 8: to that crisis, like somebody died, I'd go visit. Or 154 00:08:06,080 --> 00:08:08,280 Speaker 8: if I couldn't visit, I'd give a phone call. 155 00:08:09,080 --> 00:08:11,520 Speaker 2: Ganesh says being with people in their times of need 156 00:08:11,640 --> 00:08:14,160 Speaker 2: was a duty but also a privilege. 157 00:08:14,440 --> 00:08:17,760 Speaker 8: I felt very fortunate to be in that kind of 158 00:08:17,800 --> 00:08:21,000 Speaker 8: a role. That's a very special one, a very sacred 159 00:08:21,000 --> 00:08:23,440 Speaker 8: one I think to change me and help me be 160 00:08:23,640 --> 00:08:26,920 Speaker 8: very empathetic. But there are things that I feel like 161 00:08:26,960 --> 00:08:28,160 Speaker 8: I did badly and. 162 00:08:28,640 --> 00:08:31,400 Speaker 2: Like Quentin Ganesh found the long hours and the heavy 163 00:08:31,440 --> 00:08:33,400 Speaker 2: responsibilities tough going. 164 00:08:33,559 --> 00:08:36,760 Speaker 8: If you're an empathetic person, burnout as a really big 165 00:08:36,800 --> 00:08:39,160 Speaker 8: problem because the buckstops with you. 166 00:08:39,240 --> 00:08:43,439 Speaker 2: So about a year into Ganesh's time as a bishop. 167 00:08:43,120 --> 00:08:45,640 Speaker 8: I started to get panic attacks. You know, the phone 168 00:08:45,640 --> 00:08:49,480 Speaker 8: would ring or I'd get a text, and literally heartwood race. 169 00:08:49,760 --> 00:08:51,800 Speaker 8: It was the first time I'd ever had panic attacks 170 00:08:52,360 --> 00:08:52,960 Speaker 8: the way you've. 171 00:08:52,840 --> 00:08:55,600 Speaker 2: Described it, did you see your role at the time 172 00:08:56,040 --> 00:08:57,760 Speaker 2: as a sort of social worker. 173 00:08:58,200 --> 00:09:00,760 Speaker 8: I mean, I haven't trained and social working, so I 174 00:09:00,800 --> 00:09:04,840 Speaker 8: didn't feel like I should take that role. But where 175 00:09:04,880 --> 00:09:07,560 Speaker 8: I thought I could be really useful was being a 176 00:09:07,600 --> 00:09:11,720 Speaker 8: listening ear, validating people's trauma or hurt. 177 00:09:12,080 --> 00:09:14,520 Speaker 2: It's such an important job that there must be some 178 00:09:14,640 --> 00:09:20,840 Speaker 2: really rigorous criteria for picking a bishop, right, Not exactly, 179 00:09:21,520 --> 00:09:22,520 Speaker 2: Ganesh explains. 180 00:09:22,920 --> 00:09:27,400 Speaker 8: You have to be married, You've probably got children, You've 181 00:09:27,880 --> 00:09:33,400 Speaker 8: probably had a long standing in the church, in church leadership. 182 00:09:33,360 --> 00:09:35,360 Speaker 2: Which means that when it comes to the bishop who 183 00:09:35,440 --> 00:09:38,320 Speaker 2: ends up running your ward, the bishop who's keeping an 184 00:09:38,360 --> 00:09:41,320 Speaker 2: eye on your temple worthiness, the bishop who's right up 185 00:09:41,360 --> 00:09:44,040 Speaker 2: in your face asking about your tithes and your sex 186 00:09:44,120 --> 00:09:47,720 Speaker 2: life and your Coca Cola consumption. Well, you never know 187 00:09:47,840 --> 00:09:50,760 Speaker 2: exactly which type of bishop you're going to get. 188 00:09:50,960 --> 00:09:54,960 Speaker 8: Some bishops might be very prescriptive and very authoritarian. Some 189 00:09:55,080 --> 00:10:01,880 Speaker 8: might be extremely kind and pastoral and far so Gosh, 190 00:10:01,880 --> 00:10:03,280 Speaker 8: it's a mixed bag. 191 00:10:04,640 --> 00:10:06,840 Speaker 2: Even though I'm sure he was on the kind and 192 00:10:06,880 --> 00:10:12,000 Speaker 2: pastoral end of the bishop spectrum, Sometimes Ganesh felt seriously 193 00:10:12,160 --> 00:10:13,200 Speaker 2: out of his depth. 194 00:10:13,520 --> 00:10:17,520 Speaker 8: If somebody came and said that the spouse had abused them, 195 00:10:18,320 --> 00:10:22,720 Speaker 8: that was very difficult. Yeah, those were beyond my experience 196 00:10:22,760 --> 00:10:25,280 Speaker 8: and depth. You know, now, years later, I still think 197 00:10:25,280 --> 00:10:29,240 Speaker 8: about Gosh, I was thirty something, and sometimes when somebody 198 00:10:29,280 --> 00:10:33,400 Speaker 8: twenty years older than used talking about really hard stuff 199 00:10:33,440 --> 00:10:38,000 Speaker 8: like marital rape. I mean, it's beyond your comprehension, let 200 00:10:38,040 --> 00:10:42,160 Speaker 8: alone your ability to kind of address. So yeah, tough. 201 00:10:42,800 --> 00:10:46,880 Speaker 2: Quentin put it like this. As a bishop, he had an. 202 00:10:46,800 --> 00:10:49,680 Speaker 7: Awful lot of authority, power, responsibility. 203 00:10:49,920 --> 00:10:53,320 Speaker 2: But despite that responsibility, he says, there. 204 00:10:53,320 --> 00:10:58,800 Speaker 7: Was an awful lack of instruction and training, almost zero training. 205 00:10:58,880 --> 00:11:01,440 Speaker 7: Right in, I'm a lay clergy member. I don't get 206 00:11:01,440 --> 00:11:03,640 Speaker 7: paid for my time. I'm not a professional in the 207 00:11:03,720 --> 00:11:06,720 Speaker 7: sense I'm a transport planner at work. Why am I 208 00:11:07,000 --> 00:11:10,680 Speaker 7: trying to counsel people on the relationships and spousal abuse 209 00:11:10,720 --> 00:11:12,800 Speaker 7: and why is it even part of my world? But 210 00:11:12,840 --> 00:11:15,480 Speaker 7: it's the reality for Mormon bishops across the country. 211 00:11:16,679 --> 00:11:20,080 Speaker 2: Actually, just after saying he'd been offered almost zero training 212 00:11:20,200 --> 00:11:25,360 Speaker 2: around relationship counseling, Quentin clarified he did get instruction on 213 00:11:25,360 --> 00:11:26,760 Speaker 2: one specific point. 214 00:11:26,920 --> 00:11:30,760 Speaker 7: We needed to keep couples together. You literally can't go 215 00:11:30,760 --> 00:11:33,960 Speaker 7: to the Sister Kingdom unless you're seeored or married, and 216 00:11:34,080 --> 00:11:37,600 Speaker 7: so to separate a couple max in vulnerable to not 217 00:11:37,679 --> 00:11:40,880 Speaker 7: having that opportunity, So we try and find ways to 218 00:11:40,880 --> 00:11:41,600 Speaker 7: get together. 219 00:11:44,000 --> 00:11:46,720 Speaker 2: Despite the fact that the criteria for becoming a bishop 220 00:11:46,840 --> 00:11:50,080 Speaker 2: is basically being a bloke with kids who put his 221 00:11:50,160 --> 00:11:52,400 Speaker 2: hand up over the years, and despite the fact that 222 00:11:52,440 --> 00:11:54,880 Speaker 2: they're not trained for the de facto social work and 223 00:11:54,960 --> 00:11:58,280 Speaker 2: counseling you end up doing. Eldest members are told their 224 00:11:58,320 --> 00:12:02,360 Speaker 2: bishops have one advantage over your average social worker or counselor. 225 00:12:03,040 --> 00:12:07,880 Speaker 2: Basically it's this the Holy Spirit will see them right. 226 00:12:08,480 --> 00:12:12,679 Speaker 7: The understanding is that because you're working for God, you'll 227 00:12:12,720 --> 00:12:16,160 Speaker 7: rely on the Spirit and it will teach you what 228 00:12:16,200 --> 00:12:18,880 Speaker 7: you do and give you guidance. So whenever there was 229 00:12:18,920 --> 00:12:20,839 Speaker 7: a void, I'd rely on the Holy Ghost. 230 00:12:22,760 --> 00:12:25,880 Speaker 2: Quentin says, the Holy Ghost would let himself be known 231 00:12:26,040 --> 00:12:28,679 Speaker 2: by way of feelings. 232 00:12:28,440 --> 00:12:32,840 Speaker 7: So good positive feelings or negative feelings indicative of the 233 00:12:32,840 --> 00:12:35,800 Speaker 7: Holy Ghost working in you. So for me, when I 234 00:12:35,840 --> 00:12:38,640 Speaker 7: was in that space and I didn't know what to do, 235 00:12:38,720 --> 00:12:39,920 Speaker 7: I'd rely on as feelings. 236 00:12:41,320 --> 00:12:44,959 Speaker 2: This idea that a priesthood holders feelings are evidence of 237 00:12:45,000 --> 00:12:48,280 Speaker 2: the guidance of the Holy Spirit is a powerful brew. 238 00:12:49,160 --> 00:12:51,920 Speaker 2: John Campbell, who we met in the previous episode, the 239 00:12:51,960 --> 00:12:56,040 Speaker 2: guy who helped Caroline escape her abusive marriage. John says 240 00:12:56,080 --> 00:12:59,680 Speaker 2: there's one important manifestation of this divine guidance. 241 00:13:00,120 --> 00:13:02,360 Speaker 3: Bishops and branch presents are supposed to have this thing 242 00:13:02,440 --> 00:13:06,480 Speaker 3: called the power of discernment. You're supposed to be endowed 243 00:13:06,600 --> 00:13:09,320 Speaker 3: with this magical power to be able to tell when 244 00:13:09,360 --> 00:13:11,880 Speaker 3: someone's telling the truth and when they're not. 245 00:13:12,840 --> 00:13:16,080 Speaker 2: That's a handy skill, especially, say, if you're a bishop 246 00:13:16,120 --> 00:13:18,240 Speaker 2: and someone in your ward has been accused of doing 247 00:13:18,280 --> 00:13:21,320 Speaker 2: something terrible and you've hauled them into your office to 248 00:13:21,440 --> 00:13:23,240 Speaker 2: try to figure out the truth of the matter. 249 00:13:23,520 --> 00:13:25,760 Speaker 3: So when you're speaking to these people that have committed 250 00:13:25,800 --> 00:13:28,199 Speaker 3: some pretty serious stuff and they want to get back 251 00:13:28,200 --> 00:13:30,040 Speaker 3: into the church, you're supposed to be able to tell. 252 00:13:30,600 --> 00:13:33,600 Speaker 3: You can't let you tell you know you think you do, 253 00:13:33,800 --> 00:13:38,120 Speaker 3: because you you know you might feel something or think 254 00:13:38,160 --> 00:13:41,280 Speaker 3: you've felt something. It could be nothing more than you 255 00:13:41,320 --> 00:13:44,440 Speaker 3: know the temperature. Well, you've taken your jacket off, so 256 00:13:44,480 --> 00:13:47,920 Speaker 3: you feel a little bit light, and there's that power 257 00:13:47,920 --> 00:13:49,200 Speaker 3: of discernment acting on me. 258 00:13:57,240 --> 00:14:00,760 Speaker 2: So I was learning that Mormon bishops men who'd been 259 00:14:00,760 --> 00:14:04,240 Speaker 2: given huge responsibility for the people in their ward, but 260 00:14:04,320 --> 00:14:08,320 Speaker 2: who'd received very little training in handling the serious issues 261 00:14:08,320 --> 00:14:11,560 Speaker 2: that would come their way, aside from an imperative to 262 00:14:11,679 --> 00:14:15,560 Speaker 2: keep marriages together and to trust in their divine powers 263 00:14:15,840 --> 00:14:20,240 Speaker 2: of discernment. And starting with that first interview with Caroline, 264 00:14:20,800 --> 00:14:23,440 Speaker 2: it was becoming obvious to me that some of the 265 00:14:23,480 --> 00:14:29,200 Speaker 2: issues coming up in LDS communities were really, really serious. 266 00:14:29,560 --> 00:14:33,440 Speaker 2: I've just got off the phone with a lady who 267 00:14:34,760 --> 00:14:40,560 Speaker 2: had horrible story to tell her daughter was sexually abused 268 00:14:40,560 --> 00:14:45,000 Speaker 2: by a man. Some people, understandably didn't want to speak 269 00:14:45,080 --> 00:14:48,359 Speaker 2: on the record, and I didn't always record the conversation, 270 00:14:49,280 --> 00:14:51,920 Speaker 2: but i'd usually take a quick voice memo once it 271 00:14:51,960 --> 00:14:56,120 Speaker 2: was done. Yeah, it's nearly ten o'clock now on Monday evening, 272 00:14:56,160 --> 00:14:58,320 Speaker 2: and I've just spent the best of an hour with 273 00:14:58,360 --> 00:15:01,280 Speaker 2: her on the phone. This one was after an off 274 00:15:01,280 --> 00:15:05,080 Speaker 2: the record chat with a current church member in Hamilton. Okay, 275 00:15:05,160 --> 00:15:09,840 Speaker 2: I've just left the Sources house and wow, look at 276 00:15:09,840 --> 00:15:13,560 Speaker 2: the time, it's been six straight hours that we've been talking. 277 00:15:14,080 --> 00:15:18,840 Speaker 2: The stories I was hearing were complicated and spanned decades, 278 00:15:19,640 --> 00:15:26,040 Speaker 2: sometimes generations, and frankly sometimes they were pretty distressing to hear. 279 00:15:26,320 --> 00:15:31,560 Speaker 2: It's unbelievable what she personally has been through, what members 280 00:15:31,560 --> 00:15:34,200 Speaker 2: of her family have been through. The stories I was 281 00:15:34,200 --> 00:15:39,240 Speaker 2: hearing were about domestic abuse and coercion, violence and the 282 00:15:39,280 --> 00:15:45,640 Speaker 2: sexual abuse of children, just so so much pain and 283 00:15:45,920 --> 00:15:50,000 Speaker 2: but resilience. As we know, these things happen in many communities, 284 00:15:50,520 --> 00:15:55,560 Speaker 2: in many families, in many institutions. But the particular thread 285 00:15:55,720 --> 00:16:00,200 Speaker 2: I was following, the claim I kept hearing repeated was 286 00:16:00,240 --> 00:16:03,760 Speaker 2: that when these terrible things were reported to the bishop, 287 00:16:03,920 --> 00:16:06,360 Speaker 2: which is what you're repeatedly told to do as a 288 00:16:06,400 --> 00:16:09,480 Speaker 2: member of the Mormon Church, the process seemed to be 289 00:16:09,560 --> 00:16:14,120 Speaker 2: mishandled again and again. When she was helping women who 290 00:16:14,160 --> 00:16:18,120 Speaker 2: were being abused, silently abused by their husbands, those coming 291 00:16:18,120 --> 00:16:22,520 Speaker 2: from Temple View were saying that their bishop had told 292 00:16:22,560 --> 00:16:26,640 Speaker 2: them to not seek protection orders not to go to court. 293 00:16:27,040 --> 00:16:30,280 Speaker 2: Some of these people I found because, like Caroline, they'd 294 00:16:30,360 --> 00:16:33,680 Speaker 2: commented online. I also went back to contacts from my 295 00:16:33,760 --> 00:16:37,360 Speaker 2: earlier money articles, and sure enough they also knew of 296 00:16:37,440 --> 00:16:42,200 Speaker 2: examples of mishandled abuse complaints. And from there it seemed 297 00:16:42,320 --> 00:16:45,160 Speaker 2: every new person I talked to would lead me to 298 00:16:45,360 --> 00:16:49,400 Speaker 2: even more cases. Often someone would just have a couple 299 00:16:49,400 --> 00:16:52,400 Speaker 2: of examples when I first asked them, but then a 300 00:16:52,400 --> 00:16:55,000 Speaker 2: week later they'd get back in touch saying, oh my god, 301 00:16:55,040 --> 00:16:58,760 Speaker 2: I've just remembered two or three others. The net just 302 00:16:58,920 --> 00:17:04,040 Speaker 2: kept getting why and wider. I also look through past 303 00:17:04,160 --> 00:17:05,080 Speaker 2: media reports. 304 00:17:05,440 --> 00:17:09,159 Speaker 3: A former Mormon Church elder who sexually abused girls as 305 00:17:09,200 --> 00:17:13,000 Speaker 3: young as six has been sent to prison for twenty years. 306 00:17:13,160 --> 00:17:16,639 Speaker 9: A prominent Kaitier businessman and elder of the Mormon Church 307 00:17:16,680 --> 00:17:19,680 Speaker 9: has admitted sexually abusing boys over several years. 308 00:17:19,760 --> 00:17:22,760 Speaker 2: I didn't find a lot of cases involving Mormon offenders 309 00:17:22,800 --> 00:17:24,760 Speaker 2: that had gone all the way through the courts and 310 00:17:24,800 --> 00:17:28,640 Speaker 2: been spotted by reporters. But in the Kaitia case referenced 311 00:17:28,640 --> 00:17:32,280 Speaker 2: in that second clip, the scenario closely fitted the stories 312 00:17:32,320 --> 00:17:35,159 Speaker 2: I was hearing. It was clear that in this case, 313 00:17:35,320 --> 00:17:39,560 Speaker 2: church officials had missed opportunities to stop the abuser within 314 00:17:39,640 --> 00:17:40,119 Speaker 2: their ward. 315 00:17:40,920 --> 00:17:43,840 Speaker 9: Mormon says she warned church leaders about Taylor and twenty 316 00:17:43,880 --> 00:17:45,640 Speaker 9: ten about his suspicious behavior. 317 00:17:45,880 --> 00:17:49,719 Speaker 2: We'll hear more about that in a later episode. In 318 00:17:49,760 --> 00:17:53,600 Speaker 2: another case that made headlines, a Southland lawyer and church member, 319 00:17:54,000 --> 00:17:55,800 Speaker 2: Raphael Cacciopoli. 320 00:17:55,520 --> 00:17:58,560 Speaker 10: Was sentenced by Judge Robert Wolf to five years jail 321 00:17:58,840 --> 00:18:03,960 Speaker 10: after earlier admitting thirteen charges, including sexual violation, performing indecent 322 00:18:04,080 --> 00:18:07,320 Speaker 10: acts on two boys aged ten and twelve, in decent 323 00:18:07,359 --> 00:18:10,040 Speaker 10: assault performing an indecent act on a dog. 324 00:18:10,480 --> 00:18:14,639 Speaker 2: Again with Catiopoly, there had been opportunities to stop his 325 00:18:14,720 --> 00:18:18,560 Speaker 2: offending earlier. Some church officials had known about his offending 326 00:18:19,000 --> 00:18:21,639 Speaker 2: seven years before the complaint that put him in jail. 327 00:18:22,440 --> 00:18:24,600 Speaker 2: The trial judge, in his summary said that the church 328 00:18:24,680 --> 00:18:29,040 Speaker 2: is in effectiveness kept the door open for continued offending. 329 00:18:29,240 --> 00:18:32,720 Speaker 11: I'm reluctant to criticizing such institution, but in the present case, 330 00:18:32,960 --> 00:18:35,679 Speaker 11: I'd like to encourage churches in these circumstances to not 331 00:18:35,720 --> 00:18:38,440 Speaker 11: attempt to deal with things in house. They're ill equipped 332 00:18:38,440 --> 00:18:40,960 Speaker 11: to do so, and there are bitter and wiser courses 333 00:18:41,000 --> 00:18:41,439 Speaker 11: to follow. 334 00:18:42,200 --> 00:18:45,919 Speaker 2: So yeah, starting with that first phone call with Caroline 335 00:18:45,960 --> 00:18:49,520 Speaker 2: two years ago. It really felt I was inundated with 336 00:18:49,600 --> 00:18:53,480 Speaker 2: these cases where someone within the LDS community did something 337 00:18:53,520 --> 00:18:58,640 Speaker 2: awful and a bishop was informed, but then one way 338 00:18:58,680 --> 00:19:03,919 Speaker 2: or another, the problem was not dealt with. There are 339 00:19:03,960 --> 00:19:06,800 Speaker 2: simply too many of these stories to share them all 340 00:19:06,880 --> 00:19:09,720 Speaker 2: in this series. All the same, I want to dive 341 00:19:09,760 --> 00:19:12,160 Speaker 2: in deeper to a few of them because I think 342 00:19:12,200 --> 00:19:17,320 Speaker 2: together they start to paint a picture. That's after the break. 343 00:19:20,840 --> 00:19:23,040 Speaker 2: Just a quick heads up. It's in this part of 344 00:19:23,040 --> 00:19:26,880 Speaker 2: the episode that inevitably there is some discussion of child 345 00:19:27,000 --> 00:19:36,040 Speaker 2: sexual abuse and of sexual assault. The first story I 346 00:19:36,080 --> 00:19:38,439 Speaker 2: want you to hear is from a woman who we 347 00:19:38,440 --> 00:19:43,000 Speaker 2: are going to call Jade. For legal and privacy reasons, 348 00:19:43,040 --> 00:19:46,640 Speaker 2: we're not using Jade's real name. She also didn't want 349 00:19:46,680 --> 00:19:49,959 Speaker 2: her voice to be recognized by anyone she knew, so 350 00:19:50,000 --> 00:19:54,320 Speaker 2: the voice you hear is an actor revoicing her words. 351 00:19:55,240 --> 00:19:58,639 Speaker 2: Jade had what she'd consider a pretty ordinary and pretty 352 00:19:58,680 --> 00:19:59,760 Speaker 2: positive childhood. 353 00:20:00,440 --> 00:20:03,440 Speaker 5: I really enjoyed being a Mormon as a child. Everything 354 00:20:03,560 --> 00:20:07,200 Speaker 5: seemed good, Everything seemed right, you know, going to church 355 00:20:07,320 --> 00:20:11,080 Speaker 5: on Sundays seemed right. Getting baptized at eight was an 356 00:20:11,119 --> 00:20:12,080 Speaker 5: exciting thing to do. 357 00:20:12,920 --> 00:20:15,960 Speaker 2: Jade enjoyed school in her teenage years. She has a 358 00:20:16,000 --> 00:20:18,080 Speaker 2: lot of similar stories to the ones we heard in 359 00:20:18,119 --> 00:20:22,240 Speaker 2: the first episode, fun youth activities, and lots of basketball. 360 00:20:23,240 --> 00:20:26,680 Speaker 2: After school, she considered taking up a scholarship in Utah 361 00:20:26,920 --> 00:20:32,320 Speaker 2: for university, but decided against it. And then she got 362 00:20:32,320 --> 00:20:34,080 Speaker 2: married to an RM. 363 00:20:34,200 --> 00:20:36,920 Speaker 5: Of course, this guy had been on a mission. He'd 364 00:20:36,960 --> 00:20:40,360 Speaker 5: done everything according to the church that was right. So 365 00:20:40,640 --> 00:20:42,840 Speaker 5: I kind of thought, oh, well, I guess I should 366 00:20:42,880 --> 00:20:48,080 Speaker 5: marry him, and so we did. We got married quite quickly. 367 00:20:48,840 --> 00:20:51,639 Speaker 5: I was twenty. Yeah. 368 00:20:51,760 --> 00:20:56,320 Speaker 2: Child number one arrived soon after. Jade felt she was 369 00:20:56,320 --> 00:20:59,560 Speaker 2: on a good path. She'd married an RM in the temple. 370 00:21:00,119 --> 00:21:03,600 Speaker 2: Baby was healthy and happy, and Jade had Faro around 371 00:21:03,800 --> 00:21:04,520 Speaker 2: supporting her. 372 00:21:05,720 --> 00:21:08,600 Speaker 5: My younger sister spent a lot of time with us 373 00:21:08,680 --> 00:21:11,480 Speaker 5: because she really loved being an auntie and being around 374 00:21:11,480 --> 00:21:14,760 Speaker 5: a little baby, so she'd sleep the night at our 375 00:21:14,800 --> 00:21:15,800 Speaker 5: house a lot. 376 00:21:16,800 --> 00:21:21,639 Speaker 2: But Jade's husband was becoming distant from her and the church. 377 00:21:22,359 --> 00:21:25,639 Speaker 2: He wasn't going to the temple, wasn't praying, and this 378 00:21:25,720 --> 00:21:29,200 Speaker 2: became a source of frustration for Jade because he was 379 00:21:29,280 --> 00:21:31,840 Speaker 2: meant to be the spiritual leader in the home. 380 00:21:32,040 --> 00:21:35,439 Speaker 5: And those were sort of warning bells for me that 381 00:21:35,680 --> 00:21:37,040 Speaker 5: something's not quite right. 382 00:21:38,600 --> 00:21:41,919 Speaker 2: A couple of years into the marriage, Jade's husband became 383 00:21:42,160 --> 00:21:43,800 Speaker 2: physically abusive towards her. 384 00:21:44,720 --> 00:21:50,879 Speaker 5: I remember going to the bishop after he had hit me, 385 00:21:51,040 --> 00:21:53,600 Speaker 5: because that's what you do, you report to the bishop 386 00:21:53,720 --> 00:21:55,200 Speaker 5: when things aren't going right. 387 00:21:55,680 --> 00:21:57,359 Speaker 2: But nothing much came of it. 388 00:21:58,160 --> 00:22:01,040 Speaker 5: My bishop told me that the shoot in our marriage 389 00:22:01,280 --> 00:22:04,080 Speaker 5: isn't the violence. He said, there's something else going on, 390 00:22:04,200 --> 00:22:05,479 Speaker 5: but he didn't know what it was. 391 00:22:06,119 --> 00:22:10,040 Speaker 2: Turns out the bishop's instinct, or maybe his power of discernment, 392 00:22:10,760 --> 00:22:15,560 Speaker 2: was right. About six years into the marriage, just after 393 00:22:15,600 --> 00:22:18,919 Speaker 2: the birth of her second baby, Jade learnt through a 394 00:22:18,920 --> 00:22:23,560 Speaker 2: complicated chain of secrets shared and spilled that for that 395 00:22:24,000 --> 00:22:25,280 Speaker 2: entire time. 396 00:22:25,640 --> 00:22:27,240 Speaker 5: He had been abusing my sister. 397 00:22:29,720 --> 00:22:33,359 Speaker 2: This was Jade's much younger sister, the one who loved 398 00:22:33,400 --> 00:22:37,320 Speaker 2: being an auntie and who'd been just eight years old 399 00:22:37,920 --> 00:22:40,280 Speaker 2: when Jade and her husband had married. 400 00:22:41,200 --> 00:22:44,080 Speaker 5: From the time we got married up until I found 401 00:22:44,160 --> 00:22:51,439 Speaker 5: out he'd been sort of sneaking around and doing things to. 402 00:22:51,320 --> 00:22:55,080 Speaker 2: Her, Jade made arrangements to move out of the house 403 00:22:55,160 --> 00:22:58,760 Speaker 2: with her children, but also she and her husband made 404 00:22:58,800 --> 00:23:01,640 Speaker 2: an emergency appointment with that bishop. 405 00:23:01,840 --> 00:23:05,040 Speaker 5: That night, I called our bishop and we had a 406 00:23:05,080 --> 00:23:08,679 Speaker 5: meeting with him straight away about that. What he counseled 407 00:23:08,720 --> 00:23:12,600 Speaker 5: me in the meeting was a little bit confusing for me. 408 00:23:12,840 --> 00:23:16,240 Speaker 5: He said that because we were married in the temple, 409 00:23:16,400 --> 00:23:19,720 Speaker 5: it's my responsibility to stay with my husband. He didn't 410 00:23:19,760 --> 00:23:22,800 Speaker 5: say I had to stay, but it was his council 411 00:23:23,440 --> 00:23:25,960 Speaker 5: because of the covenants we took out in the temple. 412 00:23:27,359 --> 00:23:29,600 Speaker 5: Along the lines, you can get over this. It's more 413 00:23:29,600 --> 00:23:33,720 Speaker 5: important to focus on sort of eternal life. But he 414 00:23:33,760 --> 00:23:38,320 Speaker 5: also told my husband that he needed to go to 415 00:23:38,400 --> 00:23:40,600 Speaker 5: the police and confess what he had done. 416 00:23:41,280 --> 00:23:44,560 Speaker 2: That second bit of advice from the bishop sounds pretty 417 00:23:44,560 --> 00:23:48,080 Speaker 2: solid to me. But then Jade thought it would be 418 00:23:48,160 --> 00:23:50,919 Speaker 2: good to get her husband away for a bit, so 419 00:23:50,960 --> 00:23:54,000 Speaker 2: they contacted his family, who lived back in the city 420 00:23:54,000 --> 00:23:56,800 Speaker 2: where he'd grown up, and the family came to pick 421 00:23:56,840 --> 00:24:00,960 Speaker 2: him up and take him home. That the husband was 422 00:24:01,000 --> 00:24:04,320 Speaker 2: now resident in a different ward, one where his relations 423 00:24:04,400 --> 00:24:09,080 Speaker 2: were key members of the congregation. So the church leaders 424 00:24:09,119 --> 00:24:11,240 Speaker 2: did a bit of a handover of the whole mess, 425 00:24:11,880 --> 00:24:13,800 Speaker 2: giving the bishop in the other city. 426 00:24:13,960 --> 00:24:16,560 Speaker 5: The responsibility of dealing with the situation. 427 00:24:17,400 --> 00:24:20,800 Speaker 2: Now, remember how Ganesh said that bishops can be a 428 00:24:20,920 --> 00:24:24,840 Speaker 2: mixed bag. Well, the hometown bishop who took over, he 429 00:24:24,920 --> 00:24:28,480 Speaker 2: offered some very different advice to Jade's husband. 430 00:24:29,280 --> 00:24:32,480 Speaker 5: They advised him not to go to the police and 431 00:24:32,520 --> 00:24:36,600 Speaker 5: that they would look after him. I know people who 432 00:24:36,680 --> 00:24:39,680 Speaker 5: have been excommunicated for doing things like that, but I 433 00:24:40,280 --> 00:24:43,439 Speaker 5: feel because he was amongst his own, they were a 434 00:24:43,480 --> 00:24:44,640 Speaker 5: lot more lenient. 435 00:24:45,720 --> 00:24:50,320 Speaker 2: So no police involvement. The church will look after things 436 00:24:50,400 --> 00:24:54,280 Speaker 2: in house, meaning that the husband will be punished directly 437 00:24:54,440 --> 00:24:59,439 Speaker 2: by the church. Child sexual abuse is considered serious enough 438 00:24:59,480 --> 00:25:03,320 Speaker 2: that it's had by a disciplinary council, the church court 439 00:25:03,400 --> 00:25:07,760 Speaker 2: of fifteen men that Quentin mentioned earlier. It's worth noting 440 00:25:07,800 --> 00:25:11,679 Speaker 2: here these church courts aren't just in house and totally 441 00:25:11,760 --> 00:25:17,240 Speaker 2: unconnected to the country's justice system. They're also really very secretive. 442 00:25:17,680 --> 00:25:20,920 Speaker 2: Here's how the church puts it in the LDS General Handbook, 443 00:25:21,119 --> 00:25:22,679 Speaker 2: May twenty twenty four. 444 00:25:22,680 --> 00:25:26,639 Speaker 12: Edition, Bishops state, presidents and their counselors have a sacred 445 00:25:26,720 --> 00:25:29,960 Speaker 12: duty to protect all confidential information shared with them. 446 00:25:30,320 --> 00:25:36,520 Speaker 2: All communication within interviews, counseling, confessions, and disciplinary councils are 447 00:25:36,600 --> 00:25:41,720 Speaker 2: considered confidential by the church. According to the handbook. This 448 00:25:41,920 --> 00:25:42,920 Speaker 2: is because. 449 00:25:42,920 --> 00:25:45,919 Speaker 12: Members may not confess sins or seek guidance if what 450 00:25:45,960 --> 00:25:47,920 Speaker 12: they share will not be kept confidential. 451 00:25:48,280 --> 00:25:51,920 Speaker 2: So what was the punishment for Jade's husband for six 452 00:25:52,040 --> 00:25:54,960 Speaker 2: years of sexual abuse of a child, starting when she 453 00:25:55,080 --> 00:25:56,080 Speaker 2: was just eight years old? 454 00:25:57,160 --> 00:26:02,720 Speaker 5: In terms of discipline, he got three months probation for 455 00:26:02,880 --> 00:26:04,520 Speaker 5: what he'd done. 456 00:26:04,840 --> 00:26:08,480 Speaker 2: Probation means that for the allotted time, you can't participate 457 00:26:08,560 --> 00:26:12,360 Speaker 2: in a bunch of church activities, including worshiping in the temple. 458 00:26:13,440 --> 00:26:16,960 Speaker 2: To be crystal clear here, there is no doubt whatsoever 459 00:26:17,160 --> 00:26:21,040 Speaker 2: in Jade's mind that her husband was guilty of what 460 00:26:21,200 --> 00:26:22,119 Speaker 2: he'd been accused of. 461 00:26:22,800 --> 00:26:25,600 Speaker 5: He pretty much told me everything. I think it was 462 00:26:25,640 --> 00:26:27,560 Speaker 5: a bit of a relief for him to to sort 463 00:26:27,600 --> 00:26:31,320 Speaker 5: of be found out. So he confessed everything he did 464 00:26:31,359 --> 00:26:35,119 Speaker 5: to my sister, which was really hard. And then I 465 00:26:35,160 --> 00:26:37,960 Speaker 5: had a conversation with my sister and she confirmed that 466 00:26:37,960 --> 00:26:38,800 Speaker 5: that's what happened. 467 00:26:39,720 --> 00:26:43,679 Speaker 2: Jade was still strong in her faith. She trusted that 468 00:26:43,720 --> 00:26:46,160 Speaker 2: the church leadership knew the best course to take. 469 00:26:46,920 --> 00:26:49,800 Speaker 5: But I did start to feel that the process was 470 00:26:50,000 --> 00:26:55,240 Speaker 5: very unfair. It was very one sided, a little bit 471 00:26:55,600 --> 00:26:59,440 Speaker 5: what would you call it, male dominant? 472 00:27:00,160 --> 00:27:06,679 Speaker 2: Yeah, In any case, she kept consulting her bishop about 473 00:27:06,680 --> 00:27:07,560 Speaker 2: what to do next. 474 00:27:08,359 --> 00:27:15,200 Speaker 5: Their council was consistent around our eternal family and working 475 00:27:15,240 --> 00:27:16,240 Speaker 5: towards going back. 476 00:27:17,960 --> 00:27:21,600 Speaker 2: So she tried. She followed her husband to his home 477 00:27:21,640 --> 00:27:27,680 Speaker 2: city and attempted to reconcile. It was pretty grim, according 478 00:27:27,680 --> 00:27:30,600 Speaker 2: to Jade. The bishop there appeared to have given her 479 00:27:30,680 --> 00:27:34,560 Speaker 2: husband a total pass for all he'd confessed to the 480 00:27:34,600 --> 00:27:39,160 Speaker 2: bishop even promoted Jade's husband to new senior church callings. 481 00:27:39,720 --> 00:27:42,000 Speaker 5: I look at it now from a tell Mary point 482 00:27:42,000 --> 00:27:45,560 Speaker 5: of view, and they were really pumping his manner, you know, 483 00:27:46,400 --> 00:27:49,200 Speaker 5: giving him the power to feel like he hadn't done 484 00:27:49,280 --> 00:27:50,040 Speaker 5: anything wrong. 485 00:27:51,040 --> 00:27:55,000 Speaker 2: And when Jade challenged him about it, he became violent again. 486 00:27:56,119 --> 00:27:59,160 Speaker 5: Probably the worst decision I made was going back. 487 00:28:02,000 --> 00:28:05,399 Speaker 2: You might be asking, as I was, where was Jade's 488 00:28:05,440 --> 00:28:10,359 Speaker 2: younger sister in all this. Well, her suffering wasn't just ignored. 489 00:28:11,280 --> 00:28:14,240 Speaker 2: She was actively blamed for what had happened. 490 00:28:16,400 --> 00:28:20,159 Speaker 5: She was eight years old, and his family said it 491 00:28:20,240 --> 00:28:21,359 Speaker 5: was her fault. 492 00:28:22,440 --> 00:28:26,400 Speaker 2: Jade recalls one specific conversation with a member of his family. 493 00:28:27,880 --> 00:28:30,880 Speaker 5: She was just adamant that it was my sister's fault. Oh, 494 00:28:30,960 --> 00:28:33,040 Speaker 5: little girls like that sort of thing. This is what 495 00:28:33,080 --> 00:28:36,600 Speaker 5: they want, you know, And I'm like, she's. 496 00:28:36,440 --> 00:28:43,080 Speaker 2: Eight, there's actually a lot more to Jade's story that 497 00:28:43,120 --> 00:28:45,720 Speaker 2: we don't have space to tell, but I'm going to 498 00:28:45,800 --> 00:28:48,040 Speaker 2: jump to just one more moment because it puts the 499 00:28:48,120 --> 00:28:52,320 Speaker 2: spotlight on that internal court process that gave her husband 500 00:28:52,840 --> 00:28:56,120 Speaker 2: a three month probation for his years of sexually abusing 501 00:28:56,160 --> 00:29:00,000 Speaker 2: a young girl. After struggling to pull her fractured Marria 502 00:29:00,000 --> 00:29:04,160 Speaker 2: marriage back together, Jade ended up having an affair pretty 503 00:29:04,200 --> 00:29:06,120 Speaker 2: early on. She told her husband. 504 00:29:06,720 --> 00:29:09,440 Speaker 5: I told him straight away because I felt really bad, 505 00:29:09,800 --> 00:29:12,320 Speaker 5: and he took it really hard, sort of like he 506 00:29:12,320 --> 00:29:13,120 Speaker 5: couldn't believe. 507 00:29:12,920 --> 00:29:16,719 Speaker 2: I'd do that, having an affair. That's a clear breach 508 00:29:16,800 --> 00:29:20,040 Speaker 2: of the rules, of course. So her husband gave Jade 509 00:29:20,080 --> 00:29:21,959 Speaker 2: the standard advice for what she should do. 510 00:29:22,760 --> 00:29:25,040 Speaker 5: He made me go and see the bishop, and I 511 00:29:25,080 --> 00:29:26,920 Speaker 5: told the bishop what it happened. 512 00:29:27,480 --> 00:29:30,640 Speaker 2: This was actually a different bishop again. Jade and her 513 00:29:30,680 --> 00:29:34,800 Speaker 2: husband had moved town, and this bishop took Jade's misdeed 514 00:29:35,360 --> 00:29:39,920 Speaker 2: very seriously, like her husband before her. Jade was called 515 00:29:39,920 --> 00:29:43,000 Speaker 2: to a hearing of the church court. She took a 516 00:29:43,040 --> 00:29:46,560 Speaker 2: female relative in as a support person, but apart from. 517 00:29:46,400 --> 00:29:50,080 Speaker 5: Her, I was in a rome, surrounded by mean It 518 00:29:50,160 --> 00:29:55,920 Speaker 5: was really really intimidating. It was quite horrible actually, and 519 00:29:55,960 --> 00:29:58,640 Speaker 5: then you have to talk about rale sensitive things, and 520 00:29:58,680 --> 00:30:02,440 Speaker 5: then you have to explain why you do this. And 521 00:30:02,480 --> 00:30:04,800 Speaker 5: these are men that I went to high school with, 522 00:30:04,920 --> 00:30:08,000 Speaker 5: and it was really one of the worst experiences I've 523 00:30:08,000 --> 00:30:08,760 Speaker 5: had with the church. 524 00:30:09,800 --> 00:30:13,240 Speaker 2: Once Jade had admitted what she'd done and explained why 525 00:30:13,360 --> 00:30:17,520 Speaker 2: she'd done it, the court past judgment, like her husband, 526 00:30:18,040 --> 00:30:19,920 Speaker 2: she received a period of probation. 527 00:30:21,200 --> 00:30:26,800 Speaker 5: Yeah, so he got three months probation and I got 528 00:30:27,120 --> 00:30:27,800 Speaker 5: six months. 529 00:30:27,920 --> 00:30:32,120 Speaker 2: You received a worse punishment, yeah, than your husband for 530 00:30:32,960 --> 00:30:35,960 Speaker 2: abusing a child over many years. 531 00:30:36,480 --> 00:30:36,720 Speaker 8: Yeah. 532 00:30:37,000 --> 00:30:39,040 Speaker 2: What do you think of a church or a system 533 00:30:39,120 --> 00:30:41,200 Speaker 2: that delivers that kind of outcome? 534 00:30:42,320 --> 00:30:45,320 Speaker 5: At the time, I just took it. It started to 535 00:30:45,560 --> 00:30:48,440 Speaker 5: get a few thoughts moving in my head around what 536 00:30:48,680 --> 00:30:51,960 Speaker 5: is this? You know, I've spent my whole life trying 537 00:30:51,960 --> 00:30:54,360 Speaker 5: to do the right thing in the eyes of the church, 538 00:30:54,560 --> 00:30:58,040 Speaker 5: and this just doesn't line up for me. That was 539 00:30:58,240 --> 00:31:02,160 Speaker 5: the very first time most to Christ the church. I've 540 00:31:02,160 --> 00:31:06,200 Speaker 5: never done it before because I've been raised well, you 541 00:31:06,240 --> 00:31:08,320 Speaker 5: don't question, you just have to have faith. 542 00:31:15,040 --> 00:31:17,560 Speaker 2: The second story I want you to hear is from 543 00:31:17,560 --> 00:31:21,120 Speaker 2: a high flying Australian lawyer, Nivill. 544 00:31:21,120 --> 00:31:26,240 Speaker 6: Rocco is my name. I'm King's counsel here in Australia 545 00:31:26,840 --> 00:31:30,800 Speaker 6: and I've been practicing at Bath for over thirty years. 546 00:31:31,040 --> 00:31:32,240 Speaker 2: He's an academic and. 547 00:31:32,280 --> 00:31:34,640 Speaker 6: A judge associated professor at the Adelaide. 548 00:31:34,280 --> 00:31:37,240 Speaker 2: Law School, with degrees up to his ears. 549 00:31:37,040 --> 00:31:40,640 Speaker 6: The master's degrees in law and PhD as will. 550 00:31:41,120 --> 00:31:44,760 Speaker 2: He's also a former Mormon, having converted to the faith 551 00:31:44,840 --> 00:31:47,720 Speaker 2: in his teens and back when he was in the church, 552 00:31:48,080 --> 00:31:51,000 Speaker 2: he was a high flyer there too. He did his 553 00:31:51,080 --> 00:31:54,360 Speaker 2: mission in Germany then rocketed up the leadership ranks. 554 00:31:54,560 --> 00:31:59,440 Speaker 6: I was in the oldest Quorn presidency. Then I was 555 00:31:59,480 --> 00:31:59,960 Speaker 6: made as. 556 00:32:00,680 --> 00:32:02,760 Speaker 2: It's totally fine if you're not following all the levels 557 00:32:02,760 --> 00:32:03,560 Speaker 2: of seniority. 558 00:32:03,600 --> 00:32:05,400 Speaker 6: Here was a high county. 559 00:32:05,640 --> 00:32:10,880 Speaker 2: Just understand that Neville got pretty high up the Mormon ladder. 560 00:32:11,080 --> 00:32:14,440 Speaker 6: I was a councer in the state Presidency Leisure and 561 00:32:14,520 --> 00:32:15,400 Speaker 6: I became a counselor. 562 00:32:15,640 --> 00:32:17,440 Speaker 2: One of the highlights of his time in the church 563 00:32:17,600 --> 00:32:21,760 Speaker 2: was that from twenty fifteen to twenty seventeen, Neville and 564 00:32:21,800 --> 00:32:26,040 Speaker 2: his wife were ambassadors of sorts representing the LDS Church 565 00:32:26,240 --> 00:32:27,480 Speaker 2: to the European Union. 566 00:32:27,800 --> 00:32:31,959 Speaker 6: We spent two years working in Brussels with the European 567 00:32:32,000 --> 00:32:37,960 Speaker 6: Parliament and working on matters relating to religious freedom and 568 00:32:38,240 --> 00:32:40,040 Speaker 6: related areas of human rights. 569 00:32:40,240 --> 00:32:44,320 Speaker 2: The hierarchy and status stuff matters because it means Neville 570 00:32:44,360 --> 00:32:46,800 Speaker 2: was able to see the stories of people like Jade 571 00:32:47,200 --> 00:32:51,000 Speaker 2: from the other end of the telescope. In particular, he 572 00:32:51,160 --> 00:32:54,760 Speaker 2: was involved at a high level in the church's management 573 00:32:54,800 --> 00:32:58,480 Speaker 2: of a serious sexual abuse case. And it's a story 574 00:32:58,520 --> 00:33:03,120 Speaker 2: that begins, like so many important Mormon stories, with a mission. 575 00:33:04,600 --> 00:33:07,400 Speaker 2: After his return to Australia from Europe, Neville was called 576 00:33:07,400 --> 00:33:11,440 Speaker 2: to be one of the two counselors assisting a mission president. Together, 577 00:33:11,800 --> 00:33:14,320 Speaker 2: the three of them were responsible for a cohort of 578 00:33:14,400 --> 00:33:15,719 Speaker 2: new missionaries. 579 00:33:16,040 --> 00:33:20,680 Speaker 6: That mission prisident looks after the activities day to day, 580 00:33:21,320 --> 00:33:22,959 Speaker 6: keeps them in discipline. 581 00:33:23,560 --> 00:33:25,600 Speaker 2: A number of the young Mormons in their care were 582 00:33:25,680 --> 00:33:29,479 Speaker 2: New Zealanders serving their mission abroad in Australia, just like Marlin, 583 00:33:29,840 --> 00:33:33,840 Speaker 2: the smooth talking missionary from the first episode. So the 584 00:33:34,040 --> 00:33:38,320 Speaker 2: first major disciplinary matter across Nevill's desk was really serious. 585 00:33:38,880 --> 00:33:41,600 Speaker 2: The mission president asked Neville to look into an accusation 586 00:33:41,760 --> 00:33:44,120 Speaker 2: that had been made by one of the missionaries, a 587 00:33:44,160 --> 00:33:48,000 Speaker 2: guy originally from New Zealand, about his companion an Australian. 588 00:33:48,560 --> 00:33:51,720 Speaker 2: Remember your companion is the person you're assigned to be with. 589 00:33:52,040 --> 00:33:53,640 Speaker 2: Twenty four to seven. 590 00:33:53,720 --> 00:33:59,040 Speaker 6: It was alleged that he had ainly raped his companion. 591 00:34:02,800 --> 00:34:06,240 Speaker 2: Figuring out what had happened was challenging. At first, the 592 00:34:06,280 --> 00:34:09,880 Speaker 2: alleged defender denied it, and the victim was so mortified 593 00:34:09,920 --> 00:34:12,479 Speaker 2: by the incident that he was reluctant to go into 594 00:34:12,520 --> 00:34:17,520 Speaker 2: detail about what had gone on. But after interviewing both 595 00:34:17,560 --> 00:34:21,480 Speaker 2: parties and taking it through the internal church court, Neville 596 00:34:21,480 --> 00:34:23,960 Speaker 2: and the other mission leaders were pretty confident that the 597 00:34:24,000 --> 00:34:29,360 Speaker 2: complaint was valid, that the rape really had taken place, and. 598 00:34:29,440 --> 00:34:34,200 Speaker 6: We adjourned, We conferred. We came to the conclusion there 599 00:34:34,239 --> 00:34:37,120 Speaker 6: was nothing else to do other than to find him guilty, 600 00:34:37,160 --> 00:34:40,560 Speaker 6: to excommunicating with the church, and to send him home. 601 00:34:41,719 --> 00:34:44,120 Speaker 6: So that's what happened. 602 00:34:45,200 --> 00:34:49,920 Speaker 2: Problem solved right well, apart from the total lack of 603 00:34:49,920 --> 00:34:53,600 Speaker 2: acknowledgment that an allegation of a serious crime that might 604 00:34:53,640 --> 00:34:57,000 Speaker 2: warrant and arrest, a trial and a conviction had been 605 00:34:57,120 --> 00:35:01,399 Speaker 2: quietly brushed over in house. In fact, it was even 606 00:35:01,440 --> 00:35:05,640 Speaker 2: worse than that, because after the offending missionary was excommunicated 607 00:35:05,719 --> 00:35:07,040 Speaker 2: and sent back home. 608 00:35:07,400 --> 00:35:13,640 Speaker 6: When he went back to his home stake, his stake 609 00:35:13,719 --> 00:35:16,400 Speaker 6: prison and asked him about it, and then he denied everything. 610 00:35:16,719 --> 00:35:20,600 Speaker 6: A French, and his stake prison said well, I'll take 611 00:35:20,640 --> 00:35:26,160 Speaker 6: your word for it, and essentially annulled the excommunication and 612 00:35:26,280 --> 00:35:30,040 Speaker 6: set him loose. So he got to hang up his shingle. 613 00:35:30,080 --> 00:35:33,680 Speaker 6: As an ordinary returned missionary as they are called, you know, 614 00:35:33,920 --> 00:35:36,960 Speaker 6: just the best of people that you could imagine. 615 00:35:38,280 --> 00:35:41,120 Speaker 2: Never felt he had to do something more. 616 00:35:41,760 --> 00:35:47,160 Speaker 6: After he was sent home, I said to the mission president, 617 00:35:48,239 --> 00:35:52,319 Speaker 6: we can't leave it there. All we've done is. 618 00:35:52,239 --> 00:35:55,120 Speaker 12: We've moved him from one area to another. 619 00:35:55,760 --> 00:35:58,560 Speaker 2: As it happened, there had been a very recent scandal 620 00:35:58,600 --> 00:36:02,600 Speaker 2: in the Australian Catholic Church where an archbishop hadcome under 621 00:36:02,600 --> 00:36:05,879 Speaker 2: fire for covering up crimes committed by priests. 622 00:36:06,200 --> 00:36:08,520 Speaker 6: I said, will be guilty of the same thing if 623 00:36:08,520 --> 00:36:11,839 Speaker 6: we just send this guy off and do nothing more. 624 00:36:12,200 --> 00:36:15,560 Speaker 2: Never wanted to fix things, but he was bound to 625 00:36:15,640 --> 00:36:18,560 Speaker 2: silence about what he'd heard in that church court. 626 00:36:18,840 --> 00:36:21,480 Speaker 6: We can't say anything about what he's told us because 627 00:36:21,760 --> 00:36:26,920 Speaker 6: the church mores and rules prevent us from doing so. 628 00:36:27,280 --> 00:36:30,319 Speaker 2: And at this time Never was still deep in the 629 00:36:30,440 --> 00:36:31,680 Speaker 2: church culture. 630 00:36:32,200 --> 00:36:36,240 Speaker 6: What they call church broke. That's a term that they. 631 00:36:36,160 --> 00:36:40,160 Speaker 2: Use church broke, you know, like breaking in a horse. 632 00:36:40,719 --> 00:36:44,920 Speaker 6: And I was church broken, and I was absolutely obedient 633 00:36:44,960 --> 00:36:47,400 Speaker 6: to leaders. When it came to things where there was 634 00:36:47,440 --> 00:36:50,360 Speaker 6: a direction, I just did what it was supposed to do. 635 00:36:50,520 --> 00:36:55,960 Speaker 6: I just followed the council we'd been given and I obeyed. 636 00:36:56,120 --> 00:36:59,360 Speaker 2: So Neville couldn't simply rock up to the police and 637 00:36:59,400 --> 00:37:01,880 Speaker 2: alert them to a crime he knew all about. But 638 00:37:02,440 --> 00:37:05,560 Speaker 2: at the same time, for things where there wasn't an 639 00:37:05,680 --> 00:37:09,560 Speaker 2: explicit direction from the church, Neville had always been willing 640 00:37:09,719 --> 00:37:11,520 Speaker 2: to be a little bit creative. 641 00:37:11,600 --> 00:37:13,880 Speaker 6: Oh it's a little bit of a rebel in some things. 642 00:37:14,400 --> 00:37:16,880 Speaker 6: Not really to rebuild, but to see what the parameters 643 00:37:16,880 --> 00:37:18,960 Speaker 6: were and see if we could be more creative and 644 00:37:19,000 --> 00:37:20,360 Speaker 6: more modern than some things. 645 00:37:20,640 --> 00:37:24,080 Speaker 2: Now, at this point, the victim was still at the mission, 646 00:37:24,520 --> 00:37:27,520 Speaker 2: and after discussing the case with a lawyer friend, Neverll 647 00:37:27,560 --> 00:37:30,759 Speaker 2: realized he could encourage the victim to make a complaint 648 00:37:30,800 --> 00:37:34,600 Speaker 2: directly to police. That way, Neville wouldn't be breaching the 649 00:37:34,719 --> 00:37:40,920 Speaker 2: church's policy of confidentiality. So that's what happened. Neville supported 650 00:37:40,920 --> 00:37:43,160 Speaker 2: the victim as he made a complaint to the police. 651 00:37:44,160 --> 00:37:47,000 Speaker 2: The police took it seriously and put together a case. 652 00:37:47,239 --> 00:37:52,600 Speaker 6: The police handled it absolutely perfectly. They were very very good. 653 00:37:52,760 --> 00:37:58,040 Speaker 2: But then around about here things went sideways. Yes, the 654 00:37:58,200 --> 00:38:00,839 Speaker 2: police got involved and they were very very good. 655 00:38:01,040 --> 00:38:04,839 Speaker 6: They used to worry for his arrest. He was and 656 00:38:04,880 --> 00:38:07,520 Speaker 6: arrougned before court here. 657 00:38:07,800 --> 00:38:11,080 Speaker 2: But then the case fell apart. The family of the 658 00:38:11,200 --> 00:38:14,320 Speaker 2: victim put huge pressure on him not to pursue the 659 00:38:14,360 --> 00:38:17,759 Speaker 2: complaint and sent him back to New Zealand, well out 660 00:38:17,760 --> 00:38:20,600 Speaker 2: of the reach of the Australian police who were putting 661 00:38:20,640 --> 00:38:24,719 Speaker 2: his case together. The whole thing died for want of 662 00:38:24,880 --> 00:38:27,240 Speaker 2: ability to prosecute because the principal. 663 00:38:26,800 --> 00:38:28,960 Speaker 6: Witness was not going to testify. 664 00:38:29,600 --> 00:38:33,000 Speaker 2: Neville says there were some cultural reasons why the victim's 665 00:38:33,080 --> 00:38:36,080 Speaker 2: family didn't want the case to go ahead, but he 666 00:38:36,120 --> 00:38:39,319 Speaker 2: also says all this happened with the full knowledge of 667 00:38:39,360 --> 00:38:42,960 Speaker 2: the local bishop and the state president back in the 668 00:38:42,960 --> 00:38:48,520 Speaker 2: perpetrator's ward. They were, says Neville, very happy the thing just. 669 00:38:48,440 --> 00:38:52,640 Speaker 12: To die away. 670 00:38:52,680 --> 00:38:57,000 Speaker 2: After speaking to Neville, I was feeling conflicted. On one hand, 671 00:38:57,040 --> 00:39:00,120 Speaker 2: it was church leaders, Neville and the mission president who 672 00:39:00,120 --> 00:39:02,719 Speaker 2: would help the victim to go to the police to 673 00:39:02,840 --> 00:39:07,400 Speaker 2: report the alleged crime. On the other hand, it seems 674 00:39:07,400 --> 00:39:11,000 Speaker 2: that the bishops elsewhere were more than happy to accept 675 00:39:11,040 --> 00:39:15,000 Speaker 2: that an alleged perpetrator at face value and allow him 676 00:39:15,160 --> 00:39:17,839 Speaker 2: back in his homeward to act like he had done 677 00:39:17,840 --> 00:39:23,240 Speaker 2: nothing wrong, allowing him unfettered access to potential new victims 678 00:39:23,840 --> 00:39:28,000 Speaker 2: who would have no idea of his previous alleged offending. 679 00:39:32,680 --> 00:39:35,680 Speaker 2: I want to tell you about just one more case. 680 00:39:36,600 --> 00:39:40,479 Speaker 2: This is the story of all women called Jenny. She's 681 00:39:40,560 --> 00:39:43,560 Speaker 2: in her sixties now and what happened to her dates 682 00:39:43,600 --> 00:39:47,359 Speaker 2: back to the nineteen sixties. A few years ago, she 683 00:39:47,480 --> 00:39:53,040 Speaker 2: began a process seeking acknowledgment and financial compensation from the Church, 684 00:39:53,960 --> 00:39:56,080 Speaker 2: which hasn't been easy for Jenny. 685 00:39:56,360 --> 00:40:04,800 Speaker 4: I've needed to retill and retell my story, which is okay, 686 00:40:05,080 --> 00:40:07,719 Speaker 4: but your opening up a can of Williams for yourself. 687 00:40:08,760 --> 00:40:11,480 Speaker 2: She agreed to speak to us on the record, with 688 00:40:11,600 --> 00:40:13,640 Speaker 2: the condition that she didn't want to talk about the 689 00:40:13,640 --> 00:40:18,240 Speaker 2: abuse itself, but as part of Jenny's case against the church, 690 00:40:18,680 --> 00:40:21,600 Speaker 2: she made a formal statement to her lawyer, and all 691 00:40:21,600 --> 00:40:26,680 Speaker 2: the specific details here come from that statement. Jenny was 692 00:40:26,719 --> 00:40:30,320 Speaker 2: an adopted child raised in Auckland in the mid fifties 693 00:40:30,600 --> 00:40:31,960 Speaker 2: in an LDS family. 694 00:40:32,320 --> 00:40:34,759 Speaker 4: We grew up in the church and that was their 695 00:40:34,840 --> 00:40:37,360 Speaker 4: life pretty much from day dot. 696 00:40:37,760 --> 00:40:40,280 Speaker 2: And when she was about ten, so this is nineteen 697 00:40:40,360 --> 00:40:43,839 Speaker 2: sixty four, Jenny says she was instructed by her mother 698 00:40:44,360 --> 00:40:47,160 Speaker 2: that she needed to start visiting the home of an 699 00:40:47,200 --> 00:40:50,200 Speaker 2: elderly man from the church on her way home from 700 00:40:50,280 --> 00:40:51,800 Speaker 2: school to do some cleaning. 701 00:40:52,400 --> 00:40:54,759 Speaker 4: Probably shouldn't say it, but kids used to make fun 702 00:40:54,800 --> 00:40:56,919 Speaker 4: of him because he was on walking sticks. 703 00:40:57,520 --> 00:41:01,040 Speaker 2: Jenny says the first time she visited rewarded with a 704 00:41:01,080 --> 00:41:04,920 Speaker 2: bag of lollies for cleaning up the man's kitchen. On 705 00:41:04,960 --> 00:41:08,560 Speaker 2: her second visit, though, the man groped her and forced 706 00:41:08,560 --> 00:41:12,239 Speaker 2: her to touch his penis. He then told her she 707 00:41:12,400 --> 00:41:15,080 Speaker 2: had to keep coming back or she would be in 708 00:41:15,120 --> 00:41:18,560 Speaker 2: great trouble and he would tell the bishop about what 709 00:41:18,640 --> 00:41:24,920 Speaker 2: she had done. The severity of the offending escalated with 710 00:41:25,080 --> 00:41:28,719 Speaker 2: every visit. Jenny told her mother she didn't want to 711 00:41:28,719 --> 00:41:32,080 Speaker 2: do the cleaning, but her mother, who had no idea 712 00:41:32,160 --> 00:41:36,520 Speaker 2: about the molestation, insisted she carry on because the bishop 713 00:41:36,520 --> 00:41:42,280 Speaker 2: had asked her to help this old man. One time, 714 00:41:42,640 --> 00:41:45,160 Speaker 2: Jenny asked a friend to come with her, hoping it 715 00:41:45,200 --> 00:41:49,359 Speaker 2: would provide some sort of protection, but instead, the man 716 00:41:49,440 --> 00:41:51,520 Speaker 2: molested both her and the friend. 717 00:41:51,920 --> 00:41:54,560 Speaker 4: I really knew that it wasn't right, it was wrong, 718 00:41:54,600 --> 00:41:56,120 Speaker 4: it hit to stop. 719 00:41:57,960 --> 00:42:03,840 Speaker 2: Okay, horrific, grim story, But here's the part that's really 720 00:42:04,200 --> 00:42:09,040 Speaker 2: mind blowing. When Jenny finally told her mother what was happening. 721 00:42:08,880 --> 00:42:12,360 Speaker 4: She and two and took me to the bishop to 722 00:42:12,880 --> 00:42:14,560 Speaker 4: let him know what had happened. 723 00:42:15,560 --> 00:42:19,719 Speaker 2: And according to Jenny, the bishop asked Jenny's mother to 724 00:42:19,800 --> 00:42:23,080 Speaker 2: leave the room and the door was locked from the inside, 725 00:42:24,000 --> 00:42:27,440 Speaker 2: and then the bishop instructed her to tell him what 726 00:42:27,560 --> 00:42:30,560 Speaker 2: had happened at the man's house, but to make it 727 00:42:30,640 --> 00:42:41,480 Speaker 2: crystal clear, she needed to demonstrate it on him the bishop. Afterwards, 728 00:42:41,600 --> 00:42:44,719 Speaker 2: the bishop told Jenny to forget it all and that 729 00:42:44,760 --> 00:42:48,040 Speaker 2: she'd lied about the abuse at the hands of the 730 00:42:48,080 --> 00:42:54,680 Speaker 2: elderly man. After that, Jenny's story only gets worse. She 731 00:42:54,880 --> 00:42:58,160 Speaker 2: sent to a psychologist for a few sessions to quote 732 00:42:58,800 --> 00:43:00,600 Speaker 2: sort out her lying. 733 00:43:00,840 --> 00:43:03,120 Speaker 4: It's pretty much brained and a liar. 734 00:43:04,200 --> 00:43:09,680 Speaker 2: She attempts suicide. Her previously excellent school grades fall off 735 00:43:09,680 --> 00:43:14,719 Speaker 2: a cliff, and she leaves school early. She becomes sexually 736 00:43:14,760 --> 00:43:19,320 Speaker 2: active from age thirteen. Her relationship with her mother breaks 737 00:43:19,360 --> 00:43:23,680 Speaker 2: down and never really recovers. She leaves the church, and 738 00:43:23,760 --> 00:43:27,359 Speaker 2: at seventeen she gets married she and her husband end 739 00:43:27,440 --> 00:43:30,359 Speaker 2: up with eight children, and whilst it's a happy marriage, 740 00:43:30,600 --> 00:43:34,680 Speaker 2: Jenny's childhood sexual abuse totally derailed the life she thinks 741 00:43:34,760 --> 00:43:38,200 Speaker 2: she might have otherwise had back when she was still 742 00:43:38,239 --> 00:43:41,040 Speaker 2: getting good grades. She had ambitions to be a doctor. 743 00:43:42,360 --> 00:43:45,400 Speaker 2: To the best of Jenny's knowledge, the original offender and 744 00:43:45,480 --> 00:43:48,600 Speaker 2: the bishop who made things so much worse are both 745 00:43:48,920 --> 00:43:53,759 Speaker 2: now dead. But Jenny did say this about why she 746 00:43:53,840 --> 00:43:55,600 Speaker 2: was now trying to sue the church. 747 00:43:56,280 --> 00:44:02,560 Speaker 4: My motivation has been the thin that it needs to 748 00:44:02,600 --> 00:44:05,560 Speaker 4: be brought out in the open. The Mormon Church, the 749 00:44:05,600 --> 00:44:10,080 Speaker 4: Older years church. They hide behind so much they really do. 750 00:44:10,400 --> 00:44:13,439 Speaker 4: It's wrong. I can't be the only one. It's heven 751 00:44:13,560 --> 00:44:14,600 Speaker 4: two within the church. 752 00:44:15,400 --> 00:44:21,080 Speaker 2: And of course she's dead, right, she absolutely isn't the 753 00:44:21,120 --> 00:44:32,880 Speaker 2: only one. So many stories Caroline's and Jades and Neville's 754 00:44:33,080 --> 00:44:36,120 Speaker 2: and Jenny's and all of those people I can't name 755 00:44:36,560 --> 00:44:40,800 Speaker 2: who talk to me off the record. The additional reports 756 00:44:40,920 --> 00:44:44,360 Speaker 2: that everyone had about other cases they knew about or 757 00:44:44,400 --> 00:44:48,000 Speaker 2: had seen out of the corner of their eye, about 758 00:44:48,080 --> 00:44:52,000 Speaker 2: failures to report crimes to the police, and of offenders 759 00:44:52,040 --> 00:44:58,280 Speaker 2: being given a pass while victims were ignored. Those media 760 00:44:58,360 --> 00:45:01,800 Speaker 2: headlines about pedophiles who could have been stopped years before 761 00:45:01,840 --> 00:45:05,680 Speaker 2: they were finally arrested. And in every one of those stories, 762 00:45:05,719 --> 00:45:09,000 Speaker 2: there's always a bishop in there somewhere, because they're the 763 00:45:09,000 --> 00:45:12,279 Speaker 2: first line of defense, right the guy you call whether 764 00:45:12,320 --> 00:45:15,640 Speaker 2: you're struggling with your taste for a morning coffee or 765 00:45:15,680 --> 00:45:22,840 Speaker 2: because you've just learned that your husband is a pedophile rapist. Clearly, 766 00:45:23,080 --> 00:45:26,719 Speaker 2: bishops aren't fit to deal with cases as complex as this. 767 00:45:28,239 --> 00:45:30,880 Speaker 2: So what I wanted to know was what was the 768 00:45:31,000 --> 00:45:34,960 Speaker 2: church doing about that? Did people high up in the 769 00:45:35,040 --> 00:45:38,880 Speaker 2: church bureaucracy realize there was a problem, Were they making 770 00:45:38,960 --> 00:45:42,240 Speaker 2: any effort to fix it or to give bishops better 771 00:45:42,280 --> 00:45:45,200 Speaker 2: guidance on how to manage problems on the front line? 772 00:45:46,280 --> 00:45:49,359 Speaker 11: But then disturbing details coming to light tonight In the. 773 00:45:49,320 --> 00:45:51,640 Speaker 2: Case, one more story came my way. 774 00:45:51,520 --> 00:45:53,279 Speaker 12: Physically and sexually abused by. 775 00:45:53,239 --> 00:45:56,080 Speaker 2: That nothing to do with my reporting efforts. This one, rather, 776 00:45:56,160 --> 00:46:00,439 Speaker 2: this was a story out of the United States from Arizona. 777 00:46:00,160 --> 00:46:01,480 Speaker 12: Two leaders of his church. 778 00:46:01,560 --> 00:46:04,239 Speaker 2: It was a news report that revealed that, yes, the 779 00:46:04,400 --> 00:46:08,359 Speaker 2: church was doing something about its abuse reporting problem their 780 00:46:08,440 --> 00:46:12,000 Speaker 2: church hierarchy. In fact, church leaders had put a lot 781 00:46:12,000 --> 00:46:15,400 Speaker 2: of thought into the issue, and the whole world was 782 00:46:15,560 --> 00:46:18,440 Speaker 2: just about to learn the solution They came. 783 00:46:18,360 --> 00:46:20,840 Speaker 8: Up with, call this one eight hundred number found the 784 00:46:20,880 --> 00:46:23,120 Speaker 8: Mormon Abu's Helpline was all. 785 00:46:23,080 --> 00:46:24,680 Speaker 12: A church's helpline for guidance. 786 00:46:24,960 --> 00:46:26,760 Speaker 4: A church lawyer instructed. 787 00:46:26,360 --> 00:46:27,399 Speaker 5: Him, why do they do this? 788 00:46:28,239 --> 00:46:29,600 Speaker 6: Why does a church do this? 789 00:46:34,120 --> 00:46:36,440 Speaker 2: We saw comment from the church in response to the 790 00:46:36,480 --> 00:46:40,720 Speaker 2: allegations discussed in this episode. The church did not address 791 00:46:40,719 --> 00:46:44,760 Speaker 2: the allegations directly, but in a statement said, as followers 792 00:46:44,800 --> 00:46:47,600 Speaker 2: of Jesus Christ, members of the Church of Jesus Christ 793 00:46:47,680 --> 00:46:50,600 Speaker 2: of Latter day Saints, a poor abuse of any kind. 794 00:46:51,640 --> 00:46:54,920 Speaker 2: As a church, we invest heavily on prevention and response 795 00:46:55,280 --> 00:46:58,799 Speaker 2: and will continue to do so. Our priority is the 796 00:46:58,840 --> 00:47:01,560 Speaker 2: welfare of the victim and following the law of the 797 00:47:01,640 --> 00:47:05,120 Speaker 2: land with respect to the abuser facing the consequences of 798 00:47:05,200 --> 00:47:12,880 Speaker 2: their actions. Heaven's Helpline was funded by New Zealand on 799 00:47:12,920 --> 00:47:16,400 Speaker 2: Air and The New Zealand Herald for enzed Me and iHeartRadio. 800 00:47:17,600 --> 00:47:21,560 Speaker 2: It was researched, written and presented by me Murray Jones. 801 00:47:22,200 --> 00:47:25,240 Speaker 2: My producers were Adam Dudding, who co wrote the series, 802 00:47:25,560 --> 00:47:29,160 Speaker 2: and Kirsten Johnston from Potsop Media, who edited and sound 803 00:47:29,200 --> 00:47:33,640 Speaker 2: designed it. Phil Brownlee is our sound engineer. Music was 804 00:47:33,680 --> 00:47:37,960 Speaker 2: by Thomas Arbur and Anita Clark. Archival audio came from 805 00:47:38,000 --> 00:47:44,000 Speaker 2: TVNZED and RNZ. Jade was voiced by Erina Daniels. Ethan 806 00:47:44,040 --> 00:47:48,600 Speaker 2: Sills is executive producer here at New Zealand Herald. If 807 00:47:48,640 --> 00:47:50,319 Speaker 2: you have a story you'd like to share with me 808 00:47:50,400 --> 00:47:53,440 Speaker 2: about the Olds Church, or just want to get in touch, 809 00:47:54,120 --> 00:48:00,520 Speaker 2: email me securely at Murray Reports at Proton dot m 810 00:47:59,000 --> 00:48:05,359 Speaker 2: E or DM me on X at Murray Reports. And 811 00:48:05,600 --> 00:48:08,840 Speaker 2: for more on this podcast, head to enzedherld dot co 812 00:48:09,000 --> 00:48:16,560 Speaker 2: dot nz slash Heaven's helpline. It's time intensive doing investigations 813 00:48:16,600 --> 00:48:20,080 Speaker 2: like this, so if you value this kind of journalism, 814 00:48:20,200 --> 00:48:23,120 Speaker 2: please support it by going to your podcast platform and 815 00:48:23,239 --> 00:48:24,680 Speaker 2: rating and reviewing the series.