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Speaker 1: You're listening to the Weekend Sport podcast with Jason Fine

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Speaker 1: from Newstalk zedb.

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Speaker 2: Major up even in the All Blacks in the last

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Speaker 2: ten days, Leon McDonald leaving the coaching group after the

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Speaker 2: second Test against Argentina, and it brought in to focus

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Speaker 2: some wider questions around coaching groups and the dynamics at

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Speaker 2: play within them. What happens when coaches working together differ

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Speaker 2: on key principles? Can those differences be resolved? And can

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Speaker 2: disagreement and challenging ideas actually be a good thing? How

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Speaker 2: disruptive does it meantime for the players when they may

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Speaker 2: be hearing mixed messages and are potentially aligned to one

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Speaker 2: coach or another through having played under them in previous sides. Well,

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Speaker 2: to provide some perspective, the only voice I know to

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Speaker 2: give us the top drawer analysis is our Weekend Sport

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Speaker 2: coaching guru, Wayne Goldsmith. Wayne, thanks for joining us on

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Speaker 2: this topic which I'm really interesting interested to hear thoughts

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Speaker 2: on pretty simple question. First of all, do coaches who

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Speaker 2: work together actually have to be friends?

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Speaker 3: Well, the short answer is no, Pinty. In a perfect world, Yes,

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Speaker 3: in a perfect world, they get up on game day,

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Speaker 3: they gave breakfast together and talk about footy. They go

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Speaker 3: and have a game of goal for a game of squash,

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Speaker 3: and there's this a camaraderie, genuine friendship and affection. But

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Speaker 3: it's not essential. If you think about coaching as a workplace,

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Speaker 3: that we've all been in workplaces that have really hummed,

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Speaker 3: that have been effective, But we don't necessarily like each

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Speaker 3: other or know each other's partners and kids, and we

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Speaker 3: don't do those things. But we're professionals and we just

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Speaker 3: find a way of getting on friendship, getting on well

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Speaker 3: as human beings, and celebrating an authentic care and connection.

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Speaker 3: That's a bonus in the end is are they getting

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Speaker 3: the job done? That's they're hired to do a job,

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Speaker 3: which is in that case create an environment where success

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Speaker 3: is almost an inevitability, of course, of the expectations of

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Speaker 3: the New Zealand public and rugby public, of the All

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Speaker 3: Blacks team.

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Speaker 2: So let's just say then that that coaches aren't necessarily friends,

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Speaker 2: and as you've outlined it, it's not absolutely crucial. It's

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Speaker 2: a bonus, but not absolutely crucial. How important is it, though,

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Speaker 2: for those coaches to present a united front to their players?

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Speaker 3: Absolutely What you've said there that is that's the real issue.

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Speaker 3: So I know my experience working in the actual coaching

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Speaker 3: rooms in rugby and super rugby, even up the test

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Speaker 3: level in AFL, and in definitely in rugby league. The

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Speaker 3: general thing is that in what we have to say

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Speaker 3: the coaches room, which is coaches come in cup of

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Speaker 3: coffee and they start talking about selections or the next game,

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Speaker 3: or strategies or recruitment, whatever it might be. The general

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Speaker 3: rule is once that door is closed, it's well, let's

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Speaker 3: get into it. And I should be able to affective

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Speaker 3: environment where there's good leadership, good connections, consistency of relationships

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Speaker 3: and the way we work with each other. I should

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Speaker 3: be able to look at the head coach and say, mate,

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Speaker 3: you're wrong on this, and the head coach will look

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Speaker 3: back at me and say tell me why, and let's

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Speaker 3: bash it out. And I've made I've been in those

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Speaker 3: rooms and it's got heated and it's got challenging. But

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Speaker 3: the key years as soon as the hend goes on

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Speaker 3: the doorknob again to leave the room, one voice, united front,

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Speaker 3: consistent messages, no ambiguity and very very clear. But I've

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Speaker 3: seen those rooms almost get the throwing things, stage and

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Speaker 3: whole range of stuff, and it's robust and it's vigorous,

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Speaker 3: and it has to be because if the people charge

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Speaker 3: with leading the team can't be honest and direct with

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Speaker 3: each other, then once they leave the room, there is

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Speaker 3: an opportunity for ambiguity and different messages. So you get

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Speaker 3: it all out, you thrash it out in honesty, with

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Speaker 3: respect of course, and real integrity, but you get it

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Speaker 3: all out, and then as soon as the door handle goes,

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Speaker 3: it's one voice, one team, one message, no ambiguity, absolutely clear,

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Speaker 3: and that's a very very healthy professional coaching environment.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, and just as you're saying that, I'm envisaging these

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Speaker 2: discussions where you know there is a robust dialogue and disagreement.

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Speaker 2: Obviously that's been a wayne, isn't it than just a

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Speaker 2: bunch of assistants who nod their head all the time.

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Speaker 3: And it has to be because I'll give you an example.

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Speaker 3: I had a wonderful, just a wonderful opportunity to work

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Speaker 3: with Racing Victoria for a few years and I mentored

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Speaker 3: and coach. Believe it or not, there's Stewarts and their

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Speaker 3: integrity team and the way that the chief steward Terry

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Speaker 3: Bailey is just an amazing guy. The way he would

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Speaker 3: put it, he said, we're about to tell people that

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Speaker 3: the race was legal. We're about the say career weight.

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Speaker 3: That has to be a decision that our group has

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Speaker 3: made that's been tested, because once we make the decision,

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Speaker 3: the media, the public, the jockey, the trainer, the owner,

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Speaker 3: everyone's going to rip at the pieces and look for

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Speaker 3: any finy flow to try and prove that we were wrong.

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Speaker 3: So he said, in our decision making as a group,

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Speaker 3: as a group of stewards, we have to be direct, honest, critical, confronting.

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Speaker 3: We have to be able to be those things so

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Speaker 3: that the decision we make collectively has been rigorously tested, challenged,

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Speaker 3: and then when we make it, if someone wants to

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Speaker 3: dispute it, that's great. But man, amen, we've tapped into

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Speaker 3: the collective expertise and some really good people. And that's

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Speaker 3: what you see in great footy teams is that the

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Speaker 3: power of honesty and the power of trust, and the

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Speaker 3: power of that directness to challenge each other makes the

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Speaker 3: decision stronger. And I caught off the head coach is wrong.

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Speaker 3: Having a group of people to say it, but do

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Speaker 3: it not just hey, you're wrong and we don't like

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Speaker 3: you because we don't like your hair or you smell

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Speaker 3: of it. I'm not talking about that. So I'm saying

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Speaker 3: intelligent discussion, really vigorous, very direct in saying, coach, I

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Speaker 3: think you've got it wrong. Here's the evidence, here's the data,

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Speaker 3: here's what I've come up with. Head coach thinks, reviews it,

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Speaker 3: puts it through the process and might say, look, I'm sorry,

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Speaker 3: I disagree, and ultimately it's my head on the chopping

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Speaker 3: block and I choose to go this way or my

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Speaker 3: decision is. But the more vigorous and the more direct

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Speaker 3: and the more honest that those relationships are, and the

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Speaker 3: more direct the conversation is, the stronger, and in all likelihood,

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Speaker 3: the better the decision is when they step out of

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Speaker 3: the room. And that's what you want, is a decision

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Speaker 3: that's been tested that will withstand criticism, the oppositions, attacks,

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Speaker 3: and all those things once they leave the room.

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Speaker 2: Okay, so that line there, healthy environment there, And you

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Speaker 2: spoke before about once the hand goes on the door

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Speaker 2: doorknob to open the door out into the into the

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Speaker 2: playing group, that there has to be the united fronts

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Speaker 2: if there's not Wayne. Do you think players can sense

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Speaker 2: disharmony in a coaching group.

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Speaker 3: I think they do. I call it the mum and

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Speaker 3: Dad can have a bowl of ice cream routine, because

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Speaker 3: I think some players just get on with it. They're professionals,

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Speaker 3: they get on with but I think some of them

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Speaker 3: they want a particular thing, so they might want to

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Speaker 3: play in a position. One case says no, look, I

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Speaker 3: think you're absolutely where you should be. You should be

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Speaker 3: a nine or a three, or you should be upfront,

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Speaker 3: whatever it is. And in case, well, no, actually I

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Speaker 3: think I want to be another side. And they go

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Speaker 3: looking for an alternate view or someone who will listen

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Speaker 3: to them, or maybe something that given them a different perspective.

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Speaker 3: That becomes a danger because then the players thinking, hang on,

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Speaker 3: if I go to mum. In the same analogy, if

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Speaker 3: I go to mum, Mum said yes you kenna of

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Speaker 3: ice cream, can't or says go ask your mother? Players

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Speaker 3: not quite sure that one of the greatest things I've

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Speaker 3: ever heard Eddie Jones say. He said the secret to

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Speaker 3: success in professional rugby is role clarity. People must know

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Speaker 3: very clearly and very accurately, what their job is, what

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Speaker 3: they're supposed to do when they're supposed to do it,

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Speaker 3: and to what standard that has to be done. And

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Speaker 3: he said, you go through any team in the world

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Speaker 3: where there's ambiguity, uncertainty two messages, the teams inevitably fail.

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Speaker 3: So yeah, it's got to be very consistent. Those things

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Speaker 3: have got to be there because players all sense it.

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Speaker 3: I have no doubt whatsoever that players they listen to

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Speaker 3: the language, they look at the body language, they look

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Speaker 3: at the way the coaches in Iraq, and I don't know,

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Speaker 3: no matter how confidential you think things are inside a

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Speaker 3: footy club, they all leak everybody right up to inter

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Speaker 3: national level. Everybody knows what everybody else knows within thirty seconds.

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Speaker 3: What do you say once if you don't know what's

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Speaker 3: going on, Wait thirty seconds, everybody knows what's going on.

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Speaker 3: The problem with it is, though, is that if these

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Speaker 3: different voices different views, it's like the old military saying

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Speaker 3: anything that can be misunderstood will be misunderstood. And then

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Speaker 3: you've got holes all over the place where people are

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Speaker 3: getting different messages.

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Speaker 2: A phrase you've used a lot in our conversations, Wayne,

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Speaker 2: is when there's a decision to make or a choice

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Speaker 2: to make you've said you can accept it, change it,

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Speaker 2: or leave it. And in this case, obviously they decided

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Speaker 2: that that change had to happen, or in fact, someone

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Speaker 2: had to leave, and that was Leo McDonald. Is there

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Speaker 2: merit in the fact they did that quickly rather than

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Speaker 2: let the sort of linger.

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Speaker 3: I've think so. And usually it's Iceberg principle. What we're seeing,

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Speaker 3: what we're hearing, what's got out into the public. Remember,

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Speaker 3: that's been shielded, protected, it's been filtered by a whole

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Speaker 3: mechananism of pr marketing, whole group that's designed to keep

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Speaker 3: things as tight as they possibly can and not just

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Speaker 3: be completely in the public domain. And that's in any company,

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Speaker 3: not just in footy teams. So what you're seeing has

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Speaker 3: probably been suspected, known, dealt with behind closed doors for

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Speaker 3: maybe weeks or months. I don't know. I have no

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Speaker 3: insight or any direct relationship with Rugby New Zealand all

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Speaker 3: the all Blacks, but I suspect if it's got to

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Speaker 3: that stage, it's more than likely been something that's accumulated

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Speaker 3: over a period of time. And there's that wonderful phrasey

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Speaker 3: which is think slightly but backed fast. I think you

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Speaker 3: get to a point where you go this this is

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Speaker 3: going to create or is creating division, uncertainty, lack of

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Speaker 3: clarity which is now being reflected on field. We've got

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Speaker 3: to make a decision. Let's make it fast and move on,

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Speaker 3: obviously with all transparency and integrity and respect for the player,

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Speaker 3: for the coach, and making sure that they're being treated

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Speaker 3: appropriately and upfront, because sometimes it doesn't happen that way.

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Speaker 3: I know a NRL coaching friend of mine. I think

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Speaker 3: I might have shared this story with you previously, but

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Speaker 3: went to the NRL team in the morning. CEO called

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Speaker 3: him in and said, mate, we've made a decision overnight.

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Speaker 3: You're out and this guy, this big burly guy steading

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Speaker 3: behind you, is going to escort you to your office,

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Speaker 3: put your stuff in a box and leave. Your passwords

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Speaker 3: have been changed. And by the way, we've already told

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Speaker 3: the players, and we've got a little note here saying

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Speaker 3: that you're not allowed to directly talk to the players

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Speaker 3: about this issue for a period of time as part

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Speaker 3: of your severance. So sometimes it's done really badly, with

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Speaker 3: no respect for the coach and with a real lack

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Speaker 3: of integrity. Other times it's not working. We need to

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Speaker 3: make a change. You know it's not working, Let's move

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Speaker 3: on really quickly. The hardest thing I made is so

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Speaker 3: much of this game that we're in is about the

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Speaker 3: relation between the coach and the athletes, and it can

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Speaker 3: feel like you're losing family members. That's the hardest thing,

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Speaker 3: quite often, I think, is you know you can always

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Speaker 3: get another job, particularly a high level new Ze ond

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Speaker 3: Rugby cache guard. You guys are in so much demand

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Speaker 3: all over the world. But on a personal level, you

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Speaker 3: feel like you know, you've spent all this time building

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Speaker 3: relationships and friendships with players and then it's gone. That's

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Speaker 3: the part that really hurts the individual coach.

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Speaker 2: I want to finish with this absolutely brilliant line that

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Speaker 2: you sent when I asked you about the segment and

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Speaker 2: you said you can't beat an opponent by punching them

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Speaker 2: with one hand while you're punching yourself with the other.

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Speaker 2: I thought that was absolutely terrific. So unity of purpose

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Speaker 2: and unity of action, unity of everything. Really, that's probably

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Speaker 2: what it all boils down to, right, You've got to

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Speaker 2: be unified.

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Speaker 3: Well, it is. And the issue with the All Blacks,

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Speaker 3: as always, they're the team that everybody wants to beat

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Speaker 3: because they're so damn good. I mean, you know, and

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Speaker 3: you know I'm a big fan of New Zealand sports generally.

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Speaker 3: But if you're a coach, your first mindset is, yeah,

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Speaker 3: we're going okay over here, we've beaten a couple of

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Speaker 3: teams in Europe, or we're going to write what would

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Speaker 3: we do against the All Blacks? And everybody's coming after

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Speaker 3: you all the time. We know how good the South

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Speaker 3: Africans are. We're now good the Irish are. There's everybody

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Speaker 3: wants to beat you, guys, And as a consequence, what

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Speaker 3: you do has to be unified, very clear and very strong,

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Speaker 3: and you can't. It's like a boxer. You can't. But

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Speaker 3: no matter what sort of a boxer you are, you

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Speaker 3: could be Mike Tyson times five. You can't be in

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Speaker 3: the ring sparring and putting out your jab hand while

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Speaker 3: you're giving yourself an uppercut. It just doesn't make sense.

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Speaker 3: And knowing that so many teams are coming to beat

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Speaker 3: you because you're so good, it has to be with

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Speaker 3: both hands out in front, fighting with both hands on deck,

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Speaker 3: which means unity of direction and purpose and all those

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Speaker 3: things which your teams have been known for for so long.

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Speaker 3: And some of the great work Gilbert had noticed done

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Speaker 3: over the years, and when Smithy and Hands and all

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Speaker 3: those great great coaches and Graham Henry and all those

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Speaker 3: incredible that it just seemed like the strength and the

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Speaker 3: unity in every area of the team was what gave

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Speaker 3: you a winning edge, in addition obviously to player talent

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Speaker 3: and everything else. But you just screwened unity in the

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Speaker 3: Black Jumper, and I think that has been and always

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Speaker 3: will be the key way.

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Speaker 2: And you're right in sight and analysis as always greatly

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Speaker 2: appreciated by me and by our listeners as well. Thanks

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Speaker 2: so much for taking the time. Are you an All

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Speaker 2: Blacks fan though? Will that be fair or not?

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Speaker 3: Well? I watched the All Blacks unless they're up against

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Speaker 3: the Wallabies, in which case I just sit there crying

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Speaker 3: into my beer glass. But no, it's just I think

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Speaker 3: you've got to appreciate just the consistency of execution at

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Speaker 3: speed and power. I mean, everybody you know over the

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Speaker 3: years at Saturby going to have beaten you at different times,

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Speaker 3: and from time to time you get a challenge. But

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Speaker 3: if you go back over twenty thirty forty years that

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Speaker 3: I've been watching rugby, the ability of a nation of

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Speaker 3: three and a half four million people. To produce that

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Speaker 3: level of skill, which is consistently executed with that much

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Speaker 3: power and speed, is still remarkable. I don't think there's

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Speaker 3: another sporting story like it, so absolutely, but yeah, mate,

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Speaker 3: obviously when they're up begins to Green and Gold Jumper,

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Speaker 3: I try to watch it and look at the screen.

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Speaker 3: I try to get some level of enjoyment and just

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Speaker 3: appreciate that. You know, at least if we get within

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Speaker 3: fifty points, we're quite happy.

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Speaker 2: Again, Wayne, thanks for joining us. Always a great.

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Speaker 3: Pleasure, Always my pleasure. Piney talk you.

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Speaker 2: Yeah talk so man. Thanks indig Wayan Goldsmith. There just

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Speaker 2: so much wisdom and everything he sees with. Very lucky

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Speaker 2: to have him join us so regularly on Weekend Sport.

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Speaker 2: If you like what you heard from Wayne and would

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Speaker 2: like to find out more about him, He's got a

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Speaker 2: couple of books out as well writes articles. His website

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Speaker 2: is wgcoaching dot com. Wgcoaching dot com.

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Speaker 1: For more from Weekends Sport with Jason Fine, listen live

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Speaker 1: to News Talk ZEDB weekends from midday, or follow the

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Speaker 1: podcast on iHeartRadio