1 00:00:00,240 --> 00:00:01,960 Speaker 1: If you haven't heard the yarn about the guy who 2 00:00:01,960 --> 00:00:04,200 Speaker 1: got struck by lightning yesterday, stand by because I'm going 3 00:00:04,200 --> 00:00:05,560 Speaker 1: to tell you that before the top of the hour. 4 00:00:05,640 --> 00:00:07,720 Speaker 1: Right now, it's thirteen away from five and Barry Soper, 5 00:00:07,720 --> 00:00:09,920 Speaker 1: Senior Political Correspondence with us A Barry. 6 00:00:09,680 --> 00:00:12,080 Speaker 2: Good afternoon. Hither. I quite like the bridge in Wellington, 7 00:00:13,000 --> 00:00:16,840 Speaker 2: the sort of art nouveaux. You know it's it is 8 00:00:16,840 --> 00:00:21,560 Speaker 2: it art? It's a bit different, yeah? Is that? Why 9 00:00:21,840 --> 00:00:22,000 Speaker 2: is that? 10 00:00:22,160 --> 00:00:23,799 Speaker 1: Is that the same reason that you wore bow ties 11 00:00:23,840 --> 00:00:28,200 Speaker 1: for thirty five years? It's just a bit different. Actually, 12 00:00:28,240 --> 00:00:31,000 Speaker 1: with that statement, I think we've just realized that nothing 13 00:00:31,040 --> 00:00:33,200 Speaker 1: that you say from here on it about whether something 14 00:00:33,240 --> 00:00:34,000 Speaker 1: looks cool or not. 15 00:00:34,960 --> 00:00:37,200 Speaker 2: We just I'll tell you what. When I was wearing 16 00:00:37,200 --> 00:00:40,720 Speaker 2: those bow tires, and you're absolutely right, you wouldn't believe 17 00:00:40,960 --> 00:00:45,320 Speaker 2: how many politicians, including cabinet ministers, came up to me 18 00:00:45,400 --> 00:00:47,640 Speaker 2: and said, I wish, I wish I had the courage 19 00:00:47,640 --> 00:00:50,320 Speaker 2: to wear a bow tie. And I wore them because 20 00:00:50,320 --> 00:00:53,760 Speaker 2: in Wellington, your tires fly all over the place. Bow 21 00:00:53,800 --> 00:00:55,000 Speaker 2: tires were quite convenient. 22 00:00:55,040 --> 00:00:57,400 Speaker 1: Y yep, okay, cool anyway, So have you had a 23 00:00:57,440 --> 00:00:59,480 Speaker 1: look at the new Zealand Initiative Report in the number 24 00:00:59,520 --> 00:01:01,240 Speaker 1: of ministers ministries. 25 00:01:00,880 --> 00:01:03,800 Speaker 2: Yes, I have, and it is interesting and when you 26 00:01:03,880 --> 00:01:06,560 Speaker 2: look at it, you go for goodness. I mean, one 27 00:01:06,560 --> 00:01:09,959 Speaker 2: of the things that I would say is that eighty 28 00:01:10,120 --> 00:01:16,680 Speaker 2: one ministerial portfolios is patently ridiculous. You look at MB 29 00:01:16,840 --> 00:01:21,800 Speaker 2: for example, it has twenty different ministers, so you can 30 00:01:21,840 --> 00:01:26,600 Speaker 2: imagine making a decision. You've got to consult with all 31 00:01:26,600 --> 00:01:29,800 Speaker 2: your fellow ministers and arrive at a decision. That's why 32 00:01:30,160 --> 00:01:34,240 Speaker 2: government comes to a standstill at time twenty eight ministers 33 00:01:35,000 --> 00:01:38,480 Speaker 2: and forty three departments. Now we know that Brian Roach 34 00:01:38,959 --> 00:01:44,160 Speaker 2: his ambition is to streamline the public service, to reduce 35 00:01:44,280 --> 00:01:47,480 Speaker 2: the departments, and I think that's certainly around the corner. 36 00:01:47,520 --> 00:01:52,640 Speaker 2: But they cited countries like Ireland and Singapore as proof 37 00:01:52,720 --> 00:01:58,400 Speaker 2: that you can effectively operate with between fifteen and twenty 38 00:01:59,080 --> 00:02:04,320 Speaker 2: ministers and portfolios, and they're saying New Zealand should certainly 39 00:02:04,360 --> 00:02:07,000 Speaker 2: cut back. But if you look at those countries as 40 00:02:07,040 --> 00:02:10,520 Speaker 2: I have done, and I thought, well, you know they're 41 00:02:10,560 --> 00:02:14,880 Speaker 2: different to New Zealand. Because New Zealand we've got MMP, 42 00:02:15,400 --> 00:02:19,079 Speaker 2: we've got to accommodate other parties within our ministries and 43 00:02:19,440 --> 00:02:21,960 Speaker 2: you know they well, certainly Singapore doesn't have to it's 44 00:02:21,960 --> 00:02:26,919 Speaker 2: a one party state, but certainly Ireland and Norway they 45 00:02:26,960 --> 00:02:30,960 Speaker 2: are coalition governments, so they can do so with fewer, 46 00:02:31,320 --> 00:02:35,600 Speaker 2: many fewer ministers than what we've got here. So you know, 47 00:02:35,800 --> 00:02:37,440 Speaker 2: the argument I think is a good one. I went 48 00:02:37,480 --> 00:02:42,680 Speaker 2: back over ministries just in recent years. The long E government, 49 00:02:42,720 --> 00:02:46,320 Speaker 2: the long Ey cabinet that was forty years ago, they 50 00:02:46,360 --> 00:02:51,640 Speaker 2: had twenty ministers and twenty ministries, so that's incredible and 51 00:02:51,680 --> 00:02:55,720 Speaker 2: forty years ago, so many fewer. It started to grow 52 00:02:55,760 --> 00:03:00,960 Speaker 2: after MMP in nineteen ninety six. Of course, the Clerk government, 53 00:03:01,120 --> 00:03:04,760 Speaker 2: it had twenty ministers though, but then they started appointing 54 00:03:04,800 --> 00:03:08,120 Speaker 2: ministers outside of cabinet. There are eight ministers in her 55 00:03:08,200 --> 00:03:11,680 Speaker 2: government outside of cabinet. So that's where the problem has 56 00:03:11,680 --> 00:03:17,040 Speaker 2: arisen that we have bent over to accommodate other parties. 57 00:03:17,160 --> 00:03:19,240 Speaker 2: But you imagine if you've got a big caucus and 58 00:03:19,240 --> 00:03:22,040 Speaker 2: you're the National Party for example. They don't have such 59 00:03:22,080 --> 00:03:25,000 Speaker 2: a big caucus, but if you did have, you had 60 00:03:25,000 --> 00:03:29,600 Speaker 2: to keep your caucus happy, and dolling out ministries is 61 00:03:29,600 --> 00:03:31,600 Speaker 2: one way to do that. If you haven't got the 62 00:03:31,600 --> 00:03:34,920 Speaker 2: ability to do that, there's a lot of there would 63 00:03:34,920 --> 00:03:36,760 Speaker 2: be a lot of talk going on behind the scene. 64 00:03:36,840 --> 00:03:38,600 Speaker 1: Well yeah, I mean that's kind of what happens it. 65 00:03:39,520 --> 00:03:41,480 Speaker 1: That's what happens in the UK where the executive is 66 00:03:41,520 --> 00:03:44,960 Speaker 1: so small in contrast to the size of the party 67 00:03:45,120 --> 00:03:48,200 Speaker 1: and so you've always got the backbenches causing trouble out. Listen, 68 00:03:48,280 --> 00:03:50,920 Speaker 1: do you reckon National can say right now that they're 69 00:03:50,920 --> 00:03:52,960 Speaker 1: going to stay in the Paris Courd and that's their policy. 70 00:03:52,960 --> 00:03:54,680 Speaker 1: But what do you reckon happens after the election? 71 00:03:55,000 --> 00:03:56,880 Speaker 2: Well, yes, I think the side of the election they 72 00:03:56,920 --> 00:03:59,560 Speaker 2: will stay in the Paris Accord. And nobody's withdrawn from 73 00:03:59,600 --> 00:04:03,640 Speaker 2: the Paris Cord yet. The USS, Well I was just 74 00:04:03,680 --> 00:04:06,480 Speaker 2: going to say, but the US, they've done it twice 75 00:04:06,560 --> 00:04:11,360 Speaker 2: under Donald Trump, and they're formal withdrawal takes place in 76 00:04:11,520 --> 00:04:16,320 Speaker 2: January next year. That's the second one. But look, the 77 00:04:16,480 --> 00:04:20,919 Speaker 2: Paris Accord. I heard Petty Gluckman on with you, and 78 00:04:20,960 --> 00:04:25,040 Speaker 2: I think what he's essentially saying is that it's better 79 00:04:25,160 --> 00:04:27,520 Speaker 2: than nothing. So have you got people pulling out of 80 00:04:27,520 --> 00:04:30,320 Speaker 2: it or countries pulling out of it, then you're left 81 00:04:30,360 --> 00:04:33,880 Speaker 2: with really nothing. Although the Paris Accord, the goals that 82 00:04:33,920 --> 00:04:38,000 Speaker 2: are set within it are very very high. Luxton was 83 00:04:38,040 --> 00:04:40,560 Speaker 2: asked today what his position was and he said that 84 00:04:40,920 --> 00:04:43,479 Speaker 2: pulling out of Paris would be the quickest way to 85 00:04:43,560 --> 00:04:48,279 Speaker 2: hurt New Zealand farmers. But he seemed to argue it 86 00:04:48,680 --> 00:04:53,159 Speaker 2: on the basis that of image that if you're off 87 00:04:53,200 --> 00:04:56,960 Speaker 2: the shelves in some countries you produce, you're outside the 88 00:04:56,960 --> 00:05:01,040 Speaker 2: Paris Accord, then the people will shop elsewhere and other 89 00:05:01,839 --> 00:05:05,080 Speaker 2: countries would export. But I really don't think that's going 90 00:05:05,120 --> 00:05:06,839 Speaker 2: to affect them in that way. I think the Paris 91 00:05:06,839 --> 00:05:10,880 Speaker 2: Accord is more damaging to farmers because of its very 92 00:05:10,960 --> 00:05:13,920 Speaker 2: nature and what it imposes on farmers and what they 93 00:05:13,920 --> 00:05:14,279 Speaker 2: have to do. 94 00:05:14,440 --> 00:05:17,240 Speaker 1: Well, that's a fair argument, right, And I feel as 95 00:05:17,240 --> 00:05:19,040 Speaker 1: if you have to do the costs of each right, 96 00:05:19,120 --> 00:05:21,640 Speaker 1: is it more exp like do we take a great 97 00:05:21,680 --> 00:05:24,000 Speaker 1: is there a greater loss if we pull out? Or 98 00:05:24,080 --> 00:05:26,440 Speaker 1: is there a greater loss by staying in? And at 99 00:05:26,480 --> 00:05:28,640 Speaker 1: the moment, I mean, jeez, Barry, you've got people who 100 00:05:28,640 --> 00:05:30,599 Speaker 1: can't turn the heater on in their houses when Huntly 101 00:05:30,640 --> 00:05:32,640 Speaker 1: fires and that's the because of climate. 102 00:05:32,279 --> 00:05:35,080 Speaker 2: Initiative, and that's the problem. And is the worth it 103 00:05:35,120 --> 00:05:38,239 Speaker 2: for us? No, it's not and it's certainly not worth 104 00:05:38,240 --> 00:05:41,600 Speaker 2: its importing coal from Indonesia when we could have been 105 00:05:41,880 --> 00:05:45,280 Speaker 2: mining it here because we need it. We don't have 106 00:05:45,360 --> 00:05:46,760 Speaker 2: the alternatives at the market. 107 00:05:46,800 --> 00:05:48,760 Speaker 1: Yeah, Barry, thank you very much. Appreciate it, very sober, 108 00:05:48,800 --> 00:05:50,040 Speaker 1: Senior political correspondent. 109 00:05:50,920 --> 00:05:54,080 Speaker 2: For more from Heather Duplessy Allen Drive, listen live to 110 00:05:54,200 --> 00:05:57,239 Speaker 2: news Talks. It'd be from four pm weekdays, or follow 111 00:05:57,279 --> 00:05:59,040 Speaker 2: the podcast on iHeartRadio.