1 00:00:05,440 --> 00:00:08,720 Speaker 1: Kilda. I'm Chelsea Daniels and This is the Front Page, 2 00:00:08,840 --> 00:00:18,119 Speaker 1: a daily podcast presented by The New Zealand Herald. A 3 00:00:18,200 --> 00:00:21,079 Speaker 1: search for answers is underway after the HM and Z 4 00:00:21,320 --> 00:00:25,360 Speaker 1: S Manawanui ran aground and sank near Samoa. The one 5 00:00:25,440 --> 00:00:29,560 Speaker 1: hundred million dollar ship left Auckland's devonport just over a 6 00:00:29,640 --> 00:00:32,680 Speaker 1: week ago and was conducting a reef survey off the 7 00:00:32,720 --> 00:00:36,200 Speaker 1: coast of Samoa, but ran aground at six forty six 8 00:00:36,320 --> 00:00:39,760 Speaker 1: pm on Saturday. The ship started to take on water 9 00:00:39,880 --> 00:00:43,559 Speaker 1: shortly after, and fire broke out as well, prompting an 10 00:00:43,560 --> 00:00:47,559 Speaker 1: evacuation of all personnel on board. In the end, seventy 11 00:00:47,720 --> 00:00:51,680 Speaker 1: five crew and passengers were rescued by Samora's Fire and 12 00:00:51,720 --> 00:00:55,680 Speaker 1: Emergency Services Authority. A Court of inquiry is underway to 13 00:00:55,720 --> 00:00:59,400 Speaker 1: find out exactly what happened, while cruis are on their 14 00:00:59,400 --> 00:01:02,080 Speaker 1: way back, to work out how it can be salvaged 15 00:01:02,360 --> 00:01:06,240 Speaker 1: and if there's an environmental concern from leaking fuel. Today 16 00:01:06,240 --> 00:01:09,760 Speaker 1: on the Front Page, Dr John Battersby, a teaching fellow 17 00:01:09,840 --> 00:01:13,120 Speaker 1: in the Center for Defense and Security at Massi University, 18 00:01:13,200 --> 00:01:16,560 Speaker 1: joins us to discuss the historic nature of this incident 19 00:01:16,680 --> 00:01:24,479 Speaker 1: and its potential impact on geopolitical relationships. John, what were 20 00:01:24,520 --> 00:01:26,919 Speaker 1: your first thoughts when you heard the news. 21 00:01:27,800 --> 00:01:30,000 Speaker 2: Well, being a Wellington resident, we were woken up at 22 00:01:30,040 --> 00:01:33,840 Speaker 2: five oh eight with a rather nasty earthquake, so it 23 00:01:33,959 --> 00:01:37,640 Speaker 2: was fearing. Shortly after that that we spotted the news 24 00:01:37,680 --> 00:01:41,000 Speaker 2: that the ship had gone down, and it's a vessel 25 00:01:41,120 --> 00:01:45,600 Speaker 2: that does that important survey of the ocean floor work 26 00:01:45,760 --> 00:01:47,760 Speaker 2: and one of the reasons of the ocean floor changes 27 00:01:48,480 --> 00:01:50,360 Speaker 2: there was an earthquake, so it sort of came as 28 00:01:50,680 --> 00:01:53,320 Speaker 2: a little bit of a shock and definitely a sense 29 00:01:53,360 --> 00:01:56,080 Speaker 2: of this is an important piece of capability that we 30 00:01:56,200 --> 00:01:58,920 Speaker 2: could be losing here, So that was my first impression 31 00:01:58,960 --> 00:01:59,640 Speaker 2: of it. 32 00:02:00,320 --> 00:02:03,240 Speaker 1: Are obviously saying it's too early to speculate whether a 33 00:02:03,240 --> 00:02:06,200 Speaker 1: mechanical failure or human error are to blame, and we'll 34 00:02:06,200 --> 00:02:08,000 Speaker 1: go along with that, but can you tell me what 35 00:02:08,080 --> 00:02:10,840 Speaker 1: could have happened here? I suppose or we really just 36 00:02:10,840 --> 00:02:12,720 Speaker 1: don't know until that inquiry's over. 37 00:02:13,200 --> 00:02:15,200 Speaker 2: Well, we won't know until inquiries over, and there's a 38 00:02:15,240 --> 00:02:17,400 Speaker 2: key piece of evidence on the bottom of the ocean, 39 00:02:17,560 --> 00:02:19,240 Speaker 2: so they're going to have to get a look at that, 40 00:02:19,320 --> 00:02:21,560 Speaker 2: and so there's going to be some time involved before 41 00:02:21,560 --> 00:02:24,040 Speaker 2: we know exactly what's happened. The only other group of 42 00:02:24,040 --> 00:02:26,079 Speaker 2: people that really know what's happened were on it, and 43 00:02:26,320 --> 00:02:28,840 Speaker 2: they won't be talking to anybody other than the Inquiry. 44 00:02:28,880 --> 00:02:31,720 Speaker 2: I wouldn't have thought so, really, it's going to come 45 00:02:31,800 --> 00:02:34,880 Speaker 2: down to was this with the vessel or the people 46 00:02:34,919 --> 00:02:37,720 Speaker 2: on it? And it's going to be the Inquiry's job 47 00:02:37,760 --> 00:02:49,120 Speaker 2: to work out which is what The. 48 00:02:44,560 --> 00:02:47,640 Speaker 1: Dramatic scenes unfolded this morning as h Men's it is 49 00:02:47,800 --> 00:02:51,840 Speaker 1: Manuwannui became a burning haze of smoke before the vessel 50 00:02:52,040 --> 00:02:54,200 Speaker 1: rolled and slipped beneath the ocean. 51 00:02:54,800 --> 00:02:58,000 Speaker 3: Oh love, it's gone down, it's gone. And then finally 52 00:02:58,080 --> 00:03:02,040 Speaker 3: there was some big flame. For a couple of minutes, 53 00:03:02,080 --> 00:03:05,320 Speaker 3: the flames were going up, and then the Bold sank. 54 00:03:05,600 --> 00:03:09,560 Speaker 4: This is a ship that unfortunately is pretty much gone. 55 00:03:09,800 --> 00:03:14,280 Speaker 4: This could have been a truly terrible day, but actually 56 00:03:14,360 --> 00:03:16,119 Speaker 4: it's a bad day. 57 00:03:20,639 --> 00:03:20,799 Speaker 5: Well. 58 00:03:20,840 --> 00:03:24,960 Speaker 1: The decision to evacuate the seventy five crew and passengers 59 00:03:24,960 --> 00:03:28,240 Speaker 1: have been credited as likely to have prevented the loss 60 00:03:28,240 --> 00:03:31,800 Speaker 1: of lives, which is just extraordinary. How rare is it 61 00:03:31,880 --> 00:03:35,120 Speaker 1: to have an evacuation like this on a military vessel. 62 00:03:35,600 --> 00:03:38,440 Speaker 2: Well, it's been inly rear to heaven evacuation like this 63 00:03:39,080 --> 00:03:42,160 Speaker 2: in New Zealand because we haven't lost ship since World 64 00:03:42,200 --> 00:03:46,400 Speaker 2: War Two, so it would be something that they would practice. 65 00:03:46,600 --> 00:03:50,160 Speaker 2: And it sounds as if the conditions were not ideal 66 00:03:50,240 --> 00:03:53,920 Speaker 2: for this type of thing, So it's really it's been 67 00:03:53,960 --> 00:03:57,560 Speaker 2: really good credit to them to get I would put 68 00:03:57,600 --> 00:04:00,000 Speaker 2: that down to the training that they would have regularly 69 00:04:00,120 --> 00:04:02,360 Speaker 2: done for this sort of thing. So as rare as 70 00:04:02,440 --> 00:04:06,040 Speaker 2: doing it operationally would be, it would something that they 71 00:04:06,040 --> 00:04:08,880 Speaker 2: would have practiced, I would have expected, and that's probably 72 00:04:08,960 --> 00:04:11,000 Speaker 2: part of the reason why everybody's got off. 73 00:04:11,200 --> 00:04:13,720 Speaker 1: We haven't lost a ship since World War II, you said, 74 00:04:13,720 --> 00:04:15,720 Speaker 1: but do we lose many other vessels? 75 00:04:16,880 --> 00:04:18,760 Speaker 2: There are two sinkings in New Zealand orders that come 76 00:04:18,800 --> 00:04:22,400 Speaker 2: to mind, the Wahini, which was nineteen sixty nine, and 77 00:04:22,440 --> 00:04:25,599 Speaker 2: then I remember the Mikhail Lermaitov going down at some 78 00:04:25,720 --> 00:04:28,800 Speaker 2: point during the nineteen eighties. So it's not a common 79 00:04:28,839 --> 00:04:32,640 Speaker 2: thing anymore for large vessels to go down. We once 80 00:04:32,680 --> 00:04:35,320 Speaker 2: it was far more common. So no, look, it's real. 81 00:04:35,400 --> 00:04:37,719 Speaker 2: It's very rare for a naval vessel to go down, 82 00:04:37,760 --> 00:04:39,960 Speaker 2: and it's not happened to us since World War Two, 83 00:04:40,560 --> 00:04:42,920 Speaker 2: but it does happen there has been a study that's 84 00:04:42,960 --> 00:04:45,080 Speaker 2: looked at the number lost between World War Two and 85 00:04:45,080 --> 00:04:47,320 Speaker 2: the late nineteen eighties, and I think we're over twelve 86 00:04:47,400 --> 00:04:51,320 Speaker 2: hundred incidents at sea, and a large purport of those 87 00:04:51,400 --> 00:04:55,680 Speaker 2: worse sinkings accidental sinkings of naval vessels, so bigger navies 88 00:04:55,720 --> 00:04:59,960 Speaker 2: than us, with bigger vessels, and a more significant constant 89 00:05:00,320 --> 00:05:04,480 Speaker 2: that has happened too, So we're not entirely alone in 90 00:05:04,600 --> 00:05:08,159 Speaker 2: naval history for losing a vessel in peacetime. 91 00:05:08,560 --> 00:05:11,440 Speaker 1: I kind of even began to imagine how much these 92 00:05:11,520 --> 00:05:14,919 Speaker 1: kind of vessels cost. This one one hundred million dollars. 93 00:05:14,960 --> 00:05:16,680 Speaker 1: But does that seem quite cheap to you? 94 00:05:17,440 --> 00:05:20,520 Speaker 2: I don't think anything's anything. Nothing's cheap in the in 95 00:05:20,560 --> 00:05:23,719 Speaker 2: the fiscal times that we're in. It's a smaller vessel, 96 00:05:23,800 --> 00:05:26,359 Speaker 2: I think, and it's a vessel there is for a 97 00:05:26,480 --> 00:05:31,800 Speaker 2: set of specific, not especially military capabilities that it has. 98 00:05:32,360 --> 00:05:34,520 Speaker 2: So look, I think it's a decent sum of money, 99 00:05:34,520 --> 00:05:37,000 Speaker 2: but it doesn't seem to be an astronomical sum in 100 00:05:37,120 --> 00:05:39,479 Speaker 2: terms of let's say we compare it to the new 101 00:05:39,560 --> 00:05:43,080 Speaker 2: Into Irelander theories, which were projected to be three hundred 102 00:05:43,120 --> 00:05:45,880 Speaker 2: million each, and the Air Force poseidons four of them. 103 00:05:45,880 --> 00:05:48,640 Speaker 2: We paid out two point three billion, So it's not 104 00:05:48,920 --> 00:05:52,839 Speaker 2: like an astronomical sum that we wouldn't be able to find. 105 00:05:52,880 --> 00:05:56,200 Speaker 2: I wouldn't have expect if we needed to replace that vessel. 106 00:05:56,800 --> 00:05:59,080 Speaker 2: But still it's one hundred million dollars we could have 107 00:05:59,080 --> 00:05:59,880 Speaker 2: spent somewhere else. 108 00:06:00,200 --> 00:06:03,280 Speaker 1: This not happened, And I suppose the big question is 109 00:06:03,320 --> 00:06:05,479 Speaker 1: who pays for it? Now, do you reckon it's ensured? 110 00:06:06,640 --> 00:06:08,920 Speaker 2: I don't think you can ensure naval vessels. I don't 111 00:06:08,920 --> 00:06:11,600 Speaker 2: know the answer to that question, so no, I think 112 00:06:11,640 --> 00:06:14,640 Speaker 2: it'll come down to the government will have to if 113 00:06:14,680 --> 00:06:17,320 Speaker 2: it chooses to replace it. The government, we'll need to 114 00:06:17,360 --> 00:06:18,360 Speaker 2: find the money to do that. 115 00:06:19,520 --> 00:06:22,800 Speaker 1: How many naval vessels do we actually have in service? 116 00:06:23,680 --> 00:06:29,039 Speaker 2: I understand that we have nine ships eight now that 117 00:06:29,160 --> 00:06:32,280 Speaker 2: would qualify as ships in service of the New Zealand Navy. 118 00:06:32,360 --> 00:06:36,640 Speaker 2: So as a percentage of our navy, it represents a 119 00:06:36,680 --> 00:06:37,920 Speaker 2: significant chunk of it. 120 00:06:38,400 --> 00:06:41,080 Speaker 1: Have we always kind of had about that nine ish 121 00:06:41,320 --> 00:06:43,440 Speaker 1: or so? That seems quite small to me, but we 122 00:06:43,480 --> 00:06:45,880 Speaker 1: are a small country, aren't we. 123 00:06:45,240 --> 00:06:48,440 Speaker 2: We are, and the levy has steadily declined over the 124 00:06:48,480 --> 00:06:52,000 Speaker 2: years since War two. I can remember when we had 125 00:06:52,040 --> 00:06:55,039 Speaker 2: six six frigates. We went down to four, then we 126 00:06:55,080 --> 00:06:59,279 Speaker 2: went down to two. So it's we have a small navy. 127 00:06:59,320 --> 00:07:03,160 Speaker 2: We are a small country. Our defense capability at sea 128 00:07:03,680 --> 00:07:06,960 Speaker 2: has been declining now for fifty or sixty years. 129 00:07:09,800 --> 00:07:13,240 Speaker 5: Purchased in twenty eighteen from Norway, it was used in 130 00:07:13,280 --> 00:07:15,240 Speaker 5: the oil and gas industry there. It cost US one 131 00:07:15,280 --> 00:07:17,280 Speaker 5: hundred and three million dollars to buy and convert into 132 00:07:17,280 --> 00:07:19,880 Speaker 5: a Navy ship, which was ready for service in twenty nineteen. 133 00:07:20,000 --> 00:07:21,880 Speaker 5: The guy who signed the cabinet paper to get that 134 00:07:21,920 --> 00:07:23,600 Speaker 5: done was Ron Mark Garted. 135 00:07:23,720 --> 00:07:26,200 Speaker 6: I'm pretty sad and oh yes, you know this one 136 00:07:26,200 --> 00:07:30,200 Speaker 6: who loses ship that brought such an amazing capability to 137 00:07:30,280 --> 00:07:33,280 Speaker 6: the Royal New Zealand Navy, into New Zealand as a whole, 138 00:07:33,880 --> 00:07:36,840 Speaker 6: which quietly stunned a lot of our five Eyes and 139 00:07:37,000 --> 00:07:40,560 Speaker 6: other partners because of its capability and the innovation and 140 00:07:40,680 --> 00:07:44,760 Speaker 6: thinking that was behind its purchase. Yeah, lose that ship. 141 00:07:44,800 --> 00:07:48,240 Speaker 6: We knew we should be a stopgap for about fifteen years. 142 00:07:51,640 --> 00:07:53,440 Speaker 1: I can't imagine this is a great look for our 143 00:07:53,480 --> 00:07:55,880 Speaker 1: defense force. Is it to have a one hundred million 144 00:07:55,920 --> 00:07:58,680 Speaker 1: dollar ship sink only a few years after service? 145 00:07:59,680 --> 00:08:01,560 Speaker 2: No, we've got to I think we've got to take 146 00:08:01,560 --> 00:08:04,600 Speaker 2: that one on the chin that, yeah, we've taken a 147 00:08:04,720 --> 00:08:07,760 Speaker 2: hit here. We've we've lost a vessel in peacetime. It's 148 00:08:07,800 --> 00:08:11,160 Speaker 2: two weeks out from Choggham and some major Commonwealth heads 149 00:08:11,160 --> 00:08:14,320 Speaker 2: of government meeting that's going to be right where our 150 00:08:14,400 --> 00:08:17,800 Speaker 2: vessel was. We've got all three services and the police 151 00:08:17,880 --> 00:08:21,240 Speaker 2: I presume also a running support for that. So it's 152 00:08:21,320 --> 00:08:23,840 Speaker 2: definitely not a good look, and it's it's not a 153 00:08:23,840 --> 00:08:27,800 Speaker 2: good time for this for this to happen. But then 154 00:08:27,840 --> 00:08:31,560 Speaker 2: there's I mentioned before, it's not like these things don't happen. 155 00:08:31,760 --> 00:08:35,520 Speaker 2: It's inherently a risky thing to heat out on the 156 00:08:35,559 --> 00:08:39,120 Speaker 2: open sea, and other navies have lost vessels in peace 157 00:08:39,160 --> 00:08:43,400 Speaker 2: time with far greater consequences than what we've experienced here. 158 00:08:43,520 --> 00:08:46,520 Speaker 2: So it's look, it's not an unknown thing to have 159 00:08:46,600 --> 00:08:47,559 Speaker 2: a cured and. 160 00:08:47,520 --> 00:08:50,240 Speaker 1: We're trying to show our strength in the Pacific at 161 00:08:50,240 --> 00:08:52,800 Speaker 1: the moment, aren't we a Commonwealth heads of government? And 162 00:08:52,840 --> 00:08:55,240 Speaker 1: some I assume we're seeing that you mentioned. Is it 163 00:08:55,280 --> 00:08:57,000 Speaker 1: fair to say that this is a little bit embarrassing, 164 00:08:57,160 --> 00:08:58,920 Speaker 1: especially right before this event. 165 00:08:59,480 --> 00:09:02,160 Speaker 2: Of course, having said that, we've got to we've got 166 00:09:02,160 --> 00:09:05,360 Speaker 2: to balance that up everybody survived, nobody's died, and if 167 00:09:05,760 --> 00:09:08,320 Speaker 2: we have a little bit of a dent in our pride, 168 00:09:08,320 --> 00:09:13,360 Speaker 2: well that's that's probably an okay loss to take. But yes, 169 00:09:13,920 --> 00:09:15,800 Speaker 2: our strength in the Pacific, I'm not sure that's the 170 00:09:15,880 --> 00:09:19,200 Speaker 2: right term. I think it's our presence and influence in 171 00:09:19,240 --> 00:09:22,760 Speaker 2: the Pacific as a player who is interested in the 172 00:09:22,880 --> 00:09:27,480 Speaker 2: ongoing circumstances in the Pacific, the welfare of the Pacific 173 00:09:27,520 --> 00:09:32,080 Speaker 2: island countries that are there, and the general geo strategic 174 00:09:32,200 --> 00:09:35,480 Speaker 2: sort of setup. We're interested in maintaining our presence and 175 00:09:35,559 --> 00:09:38,200 Speaker 2: our eyes on that. So there's all of that sort 176 00:09:38,240 --> 00:09:41,280 Speaker 2: of stuff that that was part of, and that all 177 00:09:41,320 --> 00:09:42,800 Speaker 2: of that has taken a little bit of a hit 178 00:09:43,000 --> 00:09:44,200 Speaker 2: right now. 179 00:09:56,520 --> 00:09:58,840 Speaker 1: How easy is it to replace a boat like this? 180 00:09:59,000 --> 00:10:01,520 Speaker 1: I can't imagine that there's an eBay for these kind 181 00:10:01,559 --> 00:10:02,160 Speaker 1: of vessels. 182 00:10:03,440 --> 00:10:06,080 Speaker 2: Yeah, again, I'm not an expert in procurement. I can't 183 00:10:06,120 --> 00:10:08,480 Speaker 2: imagine it's it's easy. If you just look. 184 00:10:08,360 --> 00:10:11,160 Speaker 1: At look online, there's bound to be one on trade. 185 00:10:11,160 --> 00:10:14,359 Speaker 1: Me doesn't It would be a long process. 186 00:10:14,640 --> 00:10:16,679 Speaker 2: I asked the people who are trying to replace the 187 00:10:16,720 --> 00:10:19,440 Speaker 2: Wellington depict in theories how it is to get a 188 00:10:19,480 --> 00:10:21,839 Speaker 2: replacement yeah, I can't imagine it's it's that aage I 189 00:10:21,880 --> 00:10:24,720 Speaker 2: would say, be a long, expensive. 190 00:10:24,520 --> 00:10:31,040 Speaker 7: Process inspecting New Zealand's aging defense fleet forty years old 191 00:10:31,520 --> 00:10:34,439 Speaker 7: at least before announcing a funding boost to get the 192 00:10:34,520 --> 00:10:36,360 Speaker 7: defense force on a fresher footing. 193 00:10:36,960 --> 00:10:41,720 Speaker 4: We have secured extra funding for defense of five hundred 194 00:10:41,760 --> 00:10:43,640 Speaker 4: and seventy one million dollars. 195 00:10:44,040 --> 00:10:46,800 Speaker 7: Four hundred and eight million dollars is going towards equipment 196 00:10:46,840 --> 00:10:49,959 Speaker 7: and infrastructure, subject or final green light for Cabinet. It 197 00:10:50,000 --> 00:10:53,360 Speaker 7: will include replacing the unimogs and pinz Alga trucks. The 198 00:10:53,520 --> 00:10:54,880 Speaker 7: NZI deaf's workhorses. 199 00:10:55,760 --> 00:10:57,000 Speaker 4: Oh, I can't even open it. 200 00:11:01,200 --> 00:11:04,520 Speaker 1: John. We've heard in the past about the underfunding of 201 00:11:04,679 --> 00:11:08,720 Speaker 1: our defense force and it's infrastructure. After this incident, should 202 00:11:08,760 --> 00:11:10,800 Speaker 1: we look at further investments. 203 00:11:11,520 --> 00:11:14,760 Speaker 2: I'm not sure. I'm not a big fan of experiencing 204 00:11:14,840 --> 00:11:18,079 Speaker 2: a single incident and then making a whole lot of 205 00:11:18,160 --> 00:11:21,920 Speaker 2: quite general reactions to that. I think what New Zealand 206 00:11:22,000 --> 00:11:26,559 Speaker 2: needs to focus on is our defense mending, which I 207 00:11:26,640 --> 00:11:31,320 Speaker 2: think roughly half per capita what Australia is, and whether 208 00:11:31,400 --> 00:11:35,079 Speaker 2: that is appropriate given the changes they're going on in 209 00:11:35,120 --> 00:11:38,400 Speaker 2: the Pacific. We like to think we've got responsibilities in 210 00:11:38,559 --> 00:11:40,880 Speaker 2: the Pacific. We like to think that we can help 211 00:11:40,920 --> 00:11:43,600 Speaker 2: those Pacific Onlming countries in the number of ways. We've 212 00:11:43,720 --> 00:11:48,640 Speaker 2: got geostrategic competition starting to show itself. Is the Chinese 213 00:11:49,360 --> 00:11:52,120 Speaker 2: show that they're interested there? The Americans want to come back. 214 00:11:52,480 --> 00:11:58,000 Speaker 2: So we've got a whole lot of geostrategic, geopolitical kind 215 00:11:58,080 --> 00:12:01,040 Speaker 2: of decisions that we need to make. And the question 216 00:12:01,160 --> 00:12:04,160 Speaker 2: we've got to ask ourselves is not whether this particular 217 00:12:04,320 --> 00:12:07,199 Speaker 2: incident means we've got to refocus on how much defense 218 00:12:07,559 --> 00:12:11,680 Speaker 2: money we're spending. It's whether the objectives of New Zealand 219 00:12:11,800 --> 00:12:13,920 Speaker 2: are met by what we are and if they are not, 220 00:12:14,360 --> 00:12:17,840 Speaker 2: how much more do we need to get to those objectives. 221 00:12:17,880 --> 00:12:19,680 Speaker 2: I think that's the question we've got to ask. 222 00:12:20,160 --> 00:12:23,000 Speaker 1: There are already reports of a strong smell of oil 223 00:12:23,240 --> 00:12:27,520 Speaker 1: in some With those geopolitical issues in mind, how should 224 00:12:27,559 --> 00:12:31,000 Speaker 1: New Zealand handle this potential environmental disaster, I guess, and 225 00:12:31,080 --> 00:12:32,520 Speaker 1: the impacts in our relationship? 226 00:12:33,080 --> 00:12:35,560 Speaker 2: Yeah, so I think on that how you can't minimize 227 00:12:35,559 --> 00:12:36,760 Speaker 2: impact to the environment. 228 00:12:36,880 --> 00:12:37,440 Speaker 6: Right, It's. 229 00:12:38,880 --> 00:12:41,199 Speaker 2: As I said, you go out to see you take 230 00:12:41,280 --> 00:12:44,560 Speaker 2: the risk well of being out there. Pretty much every 231 00:12:44,679 --> 00:12:47,440 Speaker 2: vessel that's that's out on the seat at the moments, 232 00:12:47,480 --> 00:12:49,959 Speaker 2: full of full of fuel oil, because that's how we 233 00:12:50,040 --> 00:12:52,240 Speaker 2: get around. We're an not isle nation and so are they, 234 00:12:52,760 --> 00:12:55,480 Speaker 2: so it's not like we can exist without these vessels 235 00:12:55,520 --> 00:12:57,520 Speaker 2: coming and going from our thoughts. So that sort of 236 00:12:57,679 --> 00:13:01,079 Speaker 2: risk is the It's some There is always going to 237 00:13:01,160 --> 00:13:03,240 Speaker 2: be I think a period of time after a vessel 238 00:13:03,320 --> 00:13:06,000 Speaker 2: goes down where there is going to be an environmental impact. 239 00:13:06,440 --> 00:13:10,520 Speaker 2: But I tend to think of the English Channel in 240 00:13:10,640 --> 00:13:15,239 Speaker 2: World War Two, where you know, dozens of ships potentially 241 00:13:15,440 --> 00:13:19,160 Speaker 2: could have been going down on any given day, and 242 00:13:19,440 --> 00:13:22,199 Speaker 2: the environmental damage that that must have done is something 243 00:13:22,280 --> 00:13:25,560 Speaker 2: that nobody ever really asks about. So I think while 244 00:13:25,600 --> 00:13:30,920 Speaker 2: there will be a short term amount of environmental damage, 245 00:13:31,040 --> 00:13:34,080 Speaker 2: not to minimize it all it could be. It could 246 00:13:34,160 --> 00:13:37,280 Speaker 2: be quite damaging for the economy there for a little while, 247 00:13:37,640 --> 00:13:42,079 Speaker 2: but things will recover. It's not a huge ship, it's 248 00:13:42,240 --> 00:13:46,560 Speaker 2: not nuclear powered, so there are some I think there'll 249 00:13:46,600 --> 00:13:49,920 Speaker 2: be a period of time where it's it's a concern 250 00:13:50,160 --> 00:13:52,920 Speaker 2: and it may have an impact, but things will recover. 251 00:13:53,280 --> 00:13:59,920 Speaker 1: Thanks for joining us, John, That said, for this episode 252 00:14:00,040 --> 00:14:02,880 Speaker 1: of the Front Page, you can read more about today's 253 00:14:02,920 --> 00:14:07,240 Speaker 1: stories and extensive news coverage at enzherld dot co dot nz. 254 00:14:08,040 --> 00:14:10,920 Speaker 1: The Front Page is produced by Ethan Siles with sound 255 00:14:11,000 --> 00:14:12,240 Speaker 1: engineer Patty Fox. 256 00:14:12,720 --> 00:14:14,040 Speaker 4: I'm Chelsea Daniels. 257 00:14:14,640 --> 00:14:17,559 Speaker 1: Subscribe to the Front Page on iHeartRadio or wherever you 258 00:14:17,640 --> 00:14:20,960 Speaker 1: get your podcasts, and tune in tomorrow for another look 259 00:14:21,080 --> 00:14:22,240 Speaker 1: behind the headlines.