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Speaker 1: Back to the business of RMA reform. This government has

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Speaker 1: unveiled at seven hundred and fifty page proposal. It sets

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Speaker 1: clear limits on what councils can regulate. It's expected to

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Speaker 1: save about thirteen billion dollars in consenting costs and lift

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Speaker 1: GDP by zero point five to six percent annually by

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Speaker 1: twenty fifty. Christ Bishop is the RMA Reform Minister.

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Speaker 2: Morning Bish, good morning.

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Speaker 1: I imagine this is a relief to get this workout.

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Speaker 3: It's been a busy couple of years, in particularly last

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Speaker 3: busy couple of months.

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Speaker 1: Can imagine now listen, I think most people want to

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Speaker 1: see reform. It's hard to argue with what you've presented

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Speaker 1: in terms of a replacement, but there's always But how

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Speaker 1: much time do you think we're going to spend in

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Speaker 1: court testing this?

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Speaker 2: I don't think a lot.

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Speaker 3: In fact, part of the aim of it is to

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Speaker 3: try and get things out of court. To be honest,

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Speaker 3: there's way too much environment court litigation. It's inevitable there

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Speaker 3: will be cases, you know, you know, we have the

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Speaker 3: rule of law in this country. You can test things

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Speaker 3: through the courts and there will be some litigation. But

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Speaker 3: the actual aim of it is to try and get

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Speaker 3: less litigation less debate about, for example, what the words

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Speaker 3: sustainable management mean, which is in the current RMA, and

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Speaker 3: we've been debating at length for thirty years, so we've

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Speaker 3: removed that from the new planning system.

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Speaker 1: What about though, working out the loss right? So I say,

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Speaker 1: my council says we want to designate your place a

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Speaker 1: heritage area. I say, well, I'm going to suffer loss.

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Speaker 1: Then we have to figure out how much the loss

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Speaker 1: is so I can be compensated. That's going to go

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Speaker 1: to court, isn't.

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Speaker 2: It in some circumstances.

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Speaker 3: But you know we have valuations now, for example, and

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Speaker 3: that would be rare circumstances we'd be asking counsels to Firstly,

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Speaker 3: they only do it when there's a significant impairment on

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Speaker 3: your property. And then secondly, you know there'll be an

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Speaker 3: evidence standard around value that we will set through legislation.

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Speaker 2: To work that out. So I think all of these

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Speaker 2: things are able to work through.

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Speaker 1: If we get the COMPO for something like a heritage

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Speaker 1: heritage designation, what is that like a bank transfer or

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Speaker 1: is it a rates reduction?

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Speaker 2: Could be any number of different things.

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Speaker 3: So what we're asking counts to do is to say, listen,

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Speaker 3: when you do something that has a significant impairment on

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Speaker 3: someone's property in the public good, and there is a

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Speaker 3: role for heritage, right and there's a role for citifident

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Speaker 3: natural heritage and biodiversity and things like that. When you

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Speaker 3: do that, but and you're essentially having an impact on

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Speaker 3: somebody else's property that diminishes their value, you have to

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Speaker 3: think hard about doing that. And if you do do it,

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Speaker 3: then think about ways to make them whole again. So

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Speaker 3: it could be rates through missions, it could be compensation,

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Speaker 3: it could be land swaps for example. It will depend

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Speaker 3: on where people live. There's a range of things that

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Speaker 3: they could do. They could get bonus development rights in

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Speaker 3: exchange for giving up part of their land, for example.

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Speaker 3: So there's any number of different things that councils will

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Speaker 3: be able to look at. And it's just a recognition

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Speaker 3: that you know, private private property is important, the public

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Speaker 3: goods important too, and we're just trying to get a

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Speaker 3: better balance between the two of them.

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Speaker 1: Now, this requires councils to plan. Is it thirty years

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Speaker 1: in advance?

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Speaker 2: Yes, spatial plans will be thirty years in it.

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Speaker 1: Have we ever in this country planned thirty years in advance?

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Speaker 1: For anything.

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Speaker 3: Well, Auckland is required to do a spatial plan now,

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Speaker 3: but the types of plans we're talking about the answer

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Speaker 3: is no.

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Speaker 1: Do you have confidence we can? I mean, we get so.

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Speaker 1: It costs us millions to make plans and we fight

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Speaker 1: about it, and some of the plans that we're designed

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Speaker 1: a decay to go still aren't completely enforce and it's

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Speaker 1: still in courts I know.

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Speaker 3: And that's why we're making the plan making process a

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Speaker 3: lot simpler. Let's be really clear about the spatial plan.

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Speaker 3: These are not detailed, dense city plans. Okay that there's

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Speaker 3: a role for those, and those are called land use

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Speaker 3: chapters or land use plans. Spatial plans are basically looking

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Speaker 3: out over the next thirty years and saying, okay, where's

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Speaker 3: the future growth going to go in Canterbury or Wellington,

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Speaker 3: for example, where are the new greenfields houses, where's the

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Speaker 3: new infrastructure corridors, where are the new roads going to go?

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Speaker 3: We're not going to build them straight away, but in

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Speaker 3: twenty fifty we might be looking at building a road here.

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Speaker 1: So are you arguing it's going to be simpler.

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Speaker 2: We can do this.

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Speaker 3: The spacial plans will be simpler, but here's the thing.

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Speaker 3: Proper countries, effective countries do that stuff twenty five, thirty

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Speaker 3: forty years in advance, because once you once people know

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Speaker 3: where there might be a road in twenty five years,

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Speaker 3: the development.

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Speaker 2: Goes around that.

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Speaker 3: And also potentially in the future, we can lock in

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Speaker 3: those corridors through designations and lower the future costs of

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Speaker 3: infrastructure when we go and build a road.

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Speaker 2: These days, we're.

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Speaker 3: Often spending hundreds of millions of dollars buying up land

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Speaker 3: because we decided to build it, we didn't plan it

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Speaker 3: properly in advance. So these are the types of changes

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Speaker 3: we can make.

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Speaker 1: Okay, now, listen, have you cut back on how much

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Speaker 1: power EWE has over development.

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Speaker 3: Well, what we're doing is saying that there's a role

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Speaker 3: for EWI in terms of spatial planning, in terms of

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Speaker 3: sites of significance to Maori in terms of burial grounds

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Speaker 3: for example, or Wahitapu sites or and they need to

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Speaker 3: be identified early on in the spatial plan and then

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Speaker 3: the land use plans, and then you'll need to go

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Speaker 3: and talk to EWE about those things. But at an

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Speaker 3: individual consenting level, which we're trying to move away from

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Speaker 3: the idea that you need to go and talk to

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Speaker 3: everybody in the city, including EWI, about getting a consent

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Speaker 3: to do something. There will be fewer requirements for people

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Speaker 3: to go and talk to other people will including the council.

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Speaker 1: I'm hardened to hear that, but tell me so. The

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Speaker 1: situation we had with IKEA was that IKEA had to

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Speaker 1: go and talk to man offender. It had a whole

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Speaker 1: bunch of groups them coming and doing cut a care

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Speaker 1: and visiting whenever they wanted, and you know, being you

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Speaker 1: know there for the spades in the ground and all

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Speaker 1: that kind of stuff. Is your reform going to stop

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Speaker 1: that happening again?

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Speaker 3: It will make that far less likely to happen. I mean,

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Speaker 3: if I it's still going to happen, well, I can't

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Speaker 3: give you an individual hand on heart.

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Speaker 2: This will stop because I don't know.

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Speaker 3: I don't know what future circumstances will be like, but

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Speaker 3: there will be Put it this way, there will be

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Speaker 3: no It's highly unlikely there will be a legal requirement

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Speaker 3: for the IKEA current care situation to happen again.

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Speaker 2: I can't see how in good conscience I could.

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Speaker 1: How are you not sure about it?

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Speaker 2: Though? If you are the misria, well, because I can't

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Speaker 2: give you every you know.

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Speaker 3: In the same way if you asked me about another example,

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Speaker 3: I couldn't give you a because the law has even

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Speaker 3: been passed yet, so I can't give you a hand

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Speaker 3: on art. This will definitely stop what being honest with

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Speaker 3: you here that what I can say is it's very

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Speaker 3: likely that that will be far less likely in the

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Speaker 3: new law.

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Speaker 1: All right, bish, thanks for your to I appreciate it.

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Speaker 1: That's Chris Bishop, RMA reform minister. I don't know is

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Speaker 1: that what you wanted to hear? Probably not.

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