Speaker 1: Cura. I'm Susann Udquitzt and for Chelsea Daniels. And this
Speaker 1: is the Front Page, a daily podcast presented by the
Speaker 1: New Zealand Herald. Scott Robertson is the most successful coach
Speaker 1: in Super rugby history, leading the Crusaders to seven back
Speaker 1: to back titles. He's also a firm favorite with the public.
Speaker 1: It is perhaps the most popular rugby coach we've ever had.
Speaker 1: But his transition from the Red and Blacks to leading
Speaker 1: the All Blacks hasn't been smooth sailing. The national side
Speaker 1: has posted three losses from seven matches, their latest being
Speaker 1: against the spring Box at the weekend. So what are
Speaker 1: the issues facing his side? Is there an easy fix
Speaker 1: or is this a sign of longer term issues for
Speaker 1: rugby in this country. Well, today on the Front Page
Speaker 1: we are joined by Newstalk zb's sports news director Clay
Speaker 1: Wilson to help us unpack the low Clay, what do
Speaker 1: you make of the All Blacks result at the weekend?
Speaker 2: Well, it's got to be concerning is probably a strong word,
Speaker 2: but at least there's got to be some level of
Speaker 2: worry about where the team is that right, A new coach,
Speaker 2: a kind of new era after the last year's World Cup,
Speaker 2: and they've now lost three of the last four games.
Speaker 2: I think the big concern that's come out of that
Speaker 2: is that these are games that the All Blacks could
Speaker 2: have won, got themselves in positions to win, and haven't
Speaker 2: been able to finish those games off. So there's clearly
Speaker 2: a part of the big part of the All Blacks
Speaker 2: game that they need to fix. And this is a
Speaker 2: team that's been so dominant for so long in this sport.
Speaker 2: You know, we don't tolerate losses that well when it
Speaker 2: comes to this team. So yeah, there's certainly lots to
Speaker 2: come out of it. I'm sure lots that we'll get
Speaker 2: into about where the team is at and what can
Speaker 2: be done going forward.
Speaker 1: As you say, the All Blacks have been so dominant
Speaker 1: in the past, is it fair to say they've lost
Speaker 1: a little bit of that aura about them now?
Speaker 2: I think that is fair to say, But I think
Speaker 2: that's happened in the past before. I think sometimes there's
Speaker 2: this perception that the All Blacks have been the dominant
Speaker 2: team in rugby forever, going all the way back to
Speaker 2: when William Webbel has picked the ball up and ran
Speaker 2: with it, which to me is just not true. Like
Speaker 2: these things come in cycles. And while the All Blacks
Speaker 2: have been probably for a lot of people in their
Speaker 2: memory more often than not, the dominant team, that hasn't
Speaker 2: always been the case. And maybe this is just one
Speaker 2: of those periods where now they're not the dominant team.
Speaker 2: South Africa are clearly a very good team. Ireland have
Speaker 2: been a good team for a while and times have
Speaker 2: kind of changed. But yeah, I think they have lost
Speaker 2: that aura. And there's an element too for me of
Speaker 2: society changing. You know, thirty forty fifty years ago, the
Speaker 2: world was different and the All Blacks was such a
Speaker 2: huge part of who we were as New Zealanders. There's
Speaker 2: so much more to the world now, the digitization of
Speaker 2: how life is, social media, all these things, and also
Speaker 2: options for sports in this country. So I think all
Speaker 2: that contributes to perhaps this aura that the team once
Speaker 2: had not quite being what it was. But of course,
Speaker 2: when you lose games, if you're a team that's seen
Speaker 2: is invincible, then maybe you're not so quite so invincible anymore.
Speaker 3: For your Blacks. And for the first time for your Blacks,
Speaker 3: those four.
Speaker 1: Straight to the old four, now this is the third
Speaker 1: lass and seven matches for the All Blacks, the first
Speaker 1: under new coach Robertson. What's he had to say about
Speaker 1: these results?
Speaker 2: From what I've heard, he's acknowledged that it isn't good enough.
Speaker 2: He believes that the team isn't far away and the
Speaker 2: results and the performances reflect that. Really, that opinion is
Speaker 2: that they've been in positions to win these games that
Speaker 2: they've lost and haven't won them. So and also South Africa,
Speaker 2: I think it's pretty clean out the best team in
Speaker 2: the world. And if you're getting close against the best
Speaker 2: team of the world and not playing your best, maybe
Speaker 2: that's a sign that you know things aren't so bad.
Speaker 2: But the for the All Blacks is winning. We expect
Speaker 2: the All Blacks to win every game, and when they don't,
Speaker 2: there's clearly something not quite right. So I think he
Speaker 2: acknowledges that, and I think he's now coming to grips
Speaker 2: with the reality of coaching this team right. He's been
Speaker 2: someone who's been floated as a coach for this team
Speaker 2: for so long, has had so much success at the
Speaker 2: level below, and now it's the reality of doing the
Speaker 2: job and that's starting to sink in a bit. So
Speaker 2: it'll be very interesting to see how he goes forward
Speaker 2: and how the team responds to this position they're in.
Speaker 3: We're talking about being proud of all our efforts and
Speaker 3: how much care and what we did physically and stuff,
Speaker 3: but the Blue Juessey demands the best of us and
Speaker 3: then finishing what we've created. So small margins tist fully,
Speaker 3: some great things to see, but not the result.
Speaker 1: As you say, Scott Robertson has had so much success
Speaker 1: with the Crusaders. How much of a different beast though?
Speaker 1: Is it coaching a national site?
Speaker 2: Well, I think he's finding that out now, and that's
Speaker 2: not to say he won't go on and successful coach
Speaker 2: at this level and a successful coach of this team.
Speaker 2: But he had such a long period with the Crusaders
Speaker 2: and so much success, but no real international coaching experience.
Speaker 2: He coached the junior or Blacks, the New Zealand under
Speaker 2: twenty team, but nothing at senior international level, whereas his
Speaker 2: predecessor in Foster was an assistant coach for this All
Speaker 2: Black team for a long time, so it was embedded
Speaker 2: in an international senior men's team environment. Some people might
Speaker 2: say it's not that big a step up, but it
Speaker 2: really it's different. And when you play a team like
Speaker 2: the spring Box at Allis Park or at Newlands like
Speaker 2: they did at the weekend, that's when you find out
Speaker 2: the difference between playing at Super rugby level and playing
Speaker 2: at an international level. So he is clearly a good coach.
Speaker 2: He wouldn't have run won seven Super Rugby titles in
Speaker 2: a row without being a good coach. But it is
Speaker 2: a step up and there's different pressures that come with it.
Speaker 2: The game is different at the international level, so perhaps
Speaker 2: he's starting to maybe not find that out. I think
Speaker 2: he probably is something he expected, but now being able
Speaker 2: to deal with it is a different thing. And like
Speaker 2: I said, it's going to be very interesting to see
Speaker 2: how he goes forward from here now that perhaps might
Speaker 2: have known this was one of the scenarios that it
Speaker 2: might not have all gone to plan right at the
Speaker 2: Star and now he's right in the middle of it.
Speaker 1: As you mentioned, Ian Foster had this international experience that
Speaker 1: Scott Robertson didn't. But he had a rocky start to
Speaker 1: two losses and one draw in his first seven matches.
Speaker 1: He went on to face this immense pressure or backlash
Speaker 1: from the public. Do you think Inzidar is concerned by
Speaker 1: what's happening given the whole sarget that went on to
Speaker 1: replace Foster.
Speaker 2: Yeah, well this is one of the very interesting parts
Speaker 2: of it, right. There was so much support for Robertson
Speaker 2: and Zider even had Scott Robertson lined up to replace
Speaker 2: Foster before they won that game in Johannesburg in twenty
Speaker 2: twenty two. Yeah, I think I think concerned at ends
Speaker 2: to a certain extent. These two games come up against Australia.
Speaker 2: They'll want to win both those games and that if
Speaker 2: they don't, I think then maybe we'll see Well we
Speaker 2: won't see it, but I would be surprised if there
Speaker 2: isn't some real concern at New Zealand Rugby. There was
Speaker 2: so much public support for Scott Robertson, so much goodwill
Speaker 2: at New Zealand Rugby to get him into his job,
Speaker 2: and now it's not quite going to plan. But like
Speaker 2: you said, the same with n Foster. Not everyone starts
Speaker 2: out just just winning every game. I'm sure they'll be
Speaker 2: talking about it at New Zealand Rugby and probably at
Speaker 2: the stage trying to find ways to help him. But yeah,
Speaker 2: when you're a company which New Zealand Rugby is or
Speaker 2: an organization. It's employed someone who came in with so
Speaker 2: much hype and now things aren't quite going to plan.
Speaker 2: There's got to be some level of concern when they
Speaker 2: sit around the boardroom table. I'm sure.
Speaker 3: He missed. He missed the bus because he missed a
Speaker 3: transport to the bus and that was it, and he
Speaker 3: apologized to the group. Mostly it was just it was
Speaker 3: a misunderstanding. It was simple as that. So I can't
Speaker 3: say anymore. The Big Sea did a great job, you know,
Speaker 3: I keeping if he's a curfew broken and there's no
Speaker 3: care for you. It was just a bus.
Speaker 1: Robertson's got a slightly different style to Foster. He didn't
Speaker 1: hold Damien McKenzie up to previous standards for missing the
Speaker 1: team's bus to the airport, and then assistant coach Lee
Speaker 1: On McDonald and Ham parted ways after just five tests.
Speaker 4: They were friends who became rivals, then workmates and now
Speaker 4: ex colleagues. Leon McDonald is out as All Black's assistant
Speaker 4: coach after just five games following disagreements with Scott Robertson.
Speaker 1: How bad of a look is this on top of
Speaker 1: these losses?
Speaker 2: I feel like it's more perception than any kind of real,
Speaker 2: real impact within the team. It's hard to say these
Speaker 2: things like Leo McDonald leaving the coaching team is so
Speaker 2: big nowadays, how much impact does that head on the
Speaker 2: team losing these last two games since he's gone. Sure,
Speaker 2: these things are unsettling, but to me in terms of
Speaker 2: the impact of the team on the field, I don't
Speaker 2: think it plays a huge part. And then going on
Speaker 2: to lose these games. Damien McKenzie, I guess it's just
Speaker 2: a different approach to how Scott Robinson wants to handle
Speaker 2: these things. But the players these days are they deal
Speaker 2: in high pressure environments constantly. That's what their job is.
Speaker 2: Things like this, while they might be unsettling for a
Speaker 2: few hours or a day or two, these players are
Speaker 2: very good at just being able to put that stuff
Speaker 2: in the background and focus on what they paid to do,
Speaker 2: which is be good rugby players.
Speaker 1: There's become a bit of a pattern here. I've read
Speaker 1: some stats that the All Blacks haven't scored a try
Speaker 1: in the last quarter for the last four matches. Is
Speaker 1: the problem that they're sailing to finish.
Speaker 2: If not the biggest problem, it's one of the biggest
Speaker 2: problems this team currently has, like you say, unable to
Speaker 2: score points in the last quarter of and that's not
Speaker 2: what we've come to know from the All Blacks as
Speaker 2: a team. You think about the two World Cups that
Speaker 2: they won and that group of players they had. Not
Speaker 2: only was it a great starting fifteen, but the All
Speaker 2: Blacks were renowned for having this bench that comes on
Speaker 2: and just takes away anything from other teams in the
Speaker 2: last quarter of games. And now it's South Africa that
Speaker 2: has that advantage and the All Blacks are struggling in
Speaker 2: that department. And reality is rugby is an eighty minute game.
Speaker 2: You can be great for sixty five or seventy minutes,
Speaker 2: as the All Blacks were, especially in the fe Test
Speaker 2: in South Africa, but if you don't finish the game off,
Speaker 2: you're going to lose against other good teams. Because it's
Speaker 2: such small margins between these top teams, it is a
Speaker 2: massive problem. What do they do about it. They tried
Speaker 2: to juggle around their lineup a bit for the weekends
Speaker 2: game in Cape Town. That didn't work. So maybe it's
Speaker 2: a mentality thing. The players are not quite attuned or
Speaker 2: have the confidence in the last part of these games
Speaker 2: to be able to go and do it, and that's
Speaker 2: not an easy fixer. I mean, I don't know what
Speaker 2: the answer is to that, other than continuing to adjust
Speaker 2: the lineup. Do they talk about it much? Do they
Speaker 2: avoid talking about it? But it clearly is, like I say,
Speaker 2: if not the biggest problem, one of the biggest issues
Speaker 2: that the team needs to remedy before they're going to
Speaker 2: be competitive and be able to get back to winning
Speaker 2: games consistently against these top teams.
Speaker 1: You spoke previously about how there's so much going on
Speaker 1: in the world now there are a lot of options
Speaker 1: for sports for kids that perhaps we didn't have in
Speaker 1: the day. Is that part of the issue that we
Speaker 1: don't have the depth of players coming through now? In part?
Speaker 2: Maybe I think it would be true that perhaps the
Speaker 2: depth of player isn't quite there, But I still think
Speaker 2: New Zealand is essentially a rugby nation at its course
Speaker 2: still and the players that are coming through are still
Speaker 2: very very good players capable of making this team the
Speaker 2: best team in the world at rugby at a junior
Speaker 2: level has now been overtaken by the likes of football
Speaker 2: and basketball. It's impossible to think that doesn't have an
Speaker 2: impact at the final end, right I still think the
Speaker 2: players are there to win these kind of games, to
Speaker 2: make the All Blecks the kind of dominant team that
Speaker 2: they have been for so long. To me something like that,
Speaker 2: the impacts of that are perhaps not going to be
Speaker 2: seen until a little bit later, if we ever see them.
Speaker 2: Right now, it's more an issue about what the team's
Speaker 2: doing preps, how they're being coached, maybe to a certain example.
Speaker 1: Another interesting result at the weekend when Argentina beats Australia.
Speaker 5: Sixty Argentina a record sixty seven to twenty seven thrashing,
Speaker 5: scoring fifty points in the second half alone. New Zealand
Speaker 5: and Australia for the time being battling it out to
Speaker 5: the championship Wooden Spoon. The last time that happened fifteen
Speaker 5: years ago. How times have.
Speaker 1: Changed, Other teams in countries simply becoming better at rugby
Speaker 1: and therefore the margin is closing.
Speaker 2: Yeah, And I think these are things that also come
Speaker 2: about in cycles. Teams aren't always on the same level
Speaker 2: at the same time. At the moment we're seeing South
Speaker 2: Africa are in a very good patch of their kind
Speaker 2: of rugby history, that the team is very good, that
Speaker 2: the running World champions they've bet the All Blacks four
Speaker 2: times in a row, and like where the All Blacks
Speaker 2: a struggling a little bit, the Australian side is struggling
Speaker 2: a lot. Argentina has risen. But I think overall, the
Speaker 2: competitiveness of the World game it's much more even, it
Speaker 2: is closer. Other teams have they caught up probably, yeah,
Speaker 2: they have caught up, and the All Blacks have maybe
Speaker 2: just plateaued and a team like South Africa has continued
Speaker 2: to improve innovate a little bit more perhaps than the
Speaker 2: All Blacks have. Yeah, that's I think that's the reality
Speaker 2: of how these cycles of a sport goes, is that
Speaker 2: sometimes team's going to be dominant, you know, the opposition
Speaker 2: are going to catch up and then do you do
Speaker 2: you then go to another level or does another team
Speaker 2: your mental in at the moments that Africa has taken
Speaker 2: that mental the All Blacks once had.
Speaker 1: So we haven't become worse as a national side. We've
Speaker 1: just placed owed, is what you're saying.
Speaker 2: I think, so, I think you know, I mean, look
Speaker 2: at the position the team's got themselves into in these games,
Speaker 2: these last two tests, especially in South Africa against the
Speaker 2: World Champions. You don't get yourself in those positions if
Speaker 2: you're not a good team. But the margins, like we
Speaker 2: spoke about, are so small that if you're not quite
Speaker 2: what you used to be, or you're not quite at
Speaker 2: the best in the game, you're going to lose in
Speaker 2: those last ten to fifteen minutes. And that's what's happening
Speaker 2: all right.
Speaker 1: Just finally, are there any immediate changes that can be
Speaker 1: done to turn things around for this side? Or has
Speaker 1: Robertson stumbled into some longer term issues with rugby in
Speaker 1: this country and will that take some time to fix?
Speaker 2: I think for him now it's maybe about experimenting a
Speaker 2: little bit, and that's difficult to say because the team's
Speaker 2: been losing and you want to win games. They now
Speaker 2: have two tests against Australia and Australia got almost seventy
Speaker 2: points put on them over the weekend. Like you mentioned
Speaker 2: by Argentina, if you can't win both those games then
Speaker 2: that's a real worry. But there has to be something
Speaker 2: done in terms of how they rejig the lineup. Do
Speaker 2: they go for youth. There's a lot of good, promising
Speaker 2: young players coming through in the squad. This is the
Speaker 2: first year of a World Cup cycle. If you're going
Speaker 2: to give these players opportunities, now is the time to
Speaker 2: do it. But of course he's trying to juggle that
Speaker 2: with making sure that you don't lose any more games. Yeah,
Speaker 2: outside of that, what do you do? There might be
Speaker 2: something they can do to help build their confidence in
Speaker 2: terms of off the field these losses that have come
Speaker 2: because of poor finishes to games. That's got to be
Speaker 2: in some part due to where the teams at mentally,
Speaker 2: where the confidence levels are at. But what do you
Speaker 2: do apart from move a few pieces around and try
Speaker 2: and reset and then go again. It's well timed that
Speaker 2: they're playing two tests against Australia because like I say,
Speaker 2: Australia aren't certainly not at their best at the moment,
Speaker 2: and the two games you should win, both in Australia
Speaker 2: and here in New Zealand. Then maybe if they can
Speaker 2: get a couple of wins under their belt, it's that
Speaker 2: confidence that they're that little bit of comp and are
Speaker 2: lacking might come back, because then they go on an
Speaker 2: interview tour. But I've got five tests that are all
Speaker 2: going to be very challenging, and you know you've got
Speaker 2: if you have seven tests lists left in the year.
Speaker 2: You don't want to lose too many more when you've
Speaker 2: already lost three to start the season, do you. So?
Speaker 2: Maybe it's just a confidence then getting a couple of
Speaker 2: wins against the Wallabies on the board, and then and
Speaker 2: then that that might set them, set them away, and
Speaker 2: prep Scott Robertson can finally sort of get to momentum
Speaker 2: as the new coach of this team.
Speaker 1: Well, let's hope. So thanks for joining us, Clay. That's
Speaker 1: it for this episode of the Front Page. You can
Speaker 1: read more about today's stories and extensive news coverage at
Speaker 1: zet Herald dot co dot enz. The Front Page is
Speaker 1: produced by Ethan Sells Dan Goodwin as a sounder engineer.
Speaker 1: I'm Susie Nordquist. Subscribe to The Front Page on iHeartRadio
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