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Speaker 1: Now New Zealand has jumped up the Global Peace Index,

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Speaker 1: up two spots. We're now ranked third in the world.

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Speaker 1: Goes Iceland Ireland. US. Kevin Clements is an emeritus professor

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Speaker 1: of Peace and Conflict Studies at the University of Otago

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Speaker 1: and also the chair of the Expert Advisory Panel for

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Speaker 1: the Global Peace Index and with US. Now, hey, Kevin, hi,

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Speaker 1: how are you very well? Thank you? What have we

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Speaker 1: done to go up two spots?

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Speaker 2: Well, well, it's based on three different things. It's sort

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Speaker 2: of a measure of societal safety and security and ongoing

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Speaker 2: to Mesican national conflict and degree of militarization. And when

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Speaker 2: the data was coming in, I mean New Zealand was

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Speaker 2: not joining all the other countries immediately agreeing to kind

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Speaker 2: of a five percent defense expenditure. But we've always been

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Speaker 2: in the top five ever since the index was developed

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Speaker 2: in nineteen years ago. So we've moved around a little bit,

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Speaker 2: but it's always been Iceland Island, you see in Austria,

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Speaker 2: in Switzerland.

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Speaker 1: So does it count against us that we've bought all

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Speaker 1: these helicopters and.

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Speaker 2: Worries, Well, say, next year, main next year we may drop.

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Speaker 1: Well, that's counterintuitive isn't it, Kevin, Because you're not going

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Speaker 1: to have peace if you can't defend your borders.

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Speaker 2: Well no, but but you also can't have peace if

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Speaker 2: there's no social cohesion. High levels of polarization, a bad governance,

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Speaker 2: lack of free media and so forth. Piece are the

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Speaker 2: things which really can generate high levels of peacefulness and

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Speaker 2: in terms of what we understand as positive peace.

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Speaker 1: So is there anything to the fact that all three

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Speaker 1: in the top three, being Iceland, Ireland and ourselves have

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Speaker 1: we're islands. Does that count for something?

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Speaker 2: Well, yes, because we've got a new huge motes between us.

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Speaker 2: I mean that you know, our nearest neighbors is Australia,

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Speaker 2: and that provides you know, one one very major line

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Speaker 2: of defense. And it's true that they're all they're all islands. Austria, however,

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Speaker 2: is in Switzerland landlocked. So no, it's got more to

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Speaker 2: do with levels of militarization, high levels of state welfare,

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Speaker 2: education and so forth, good health systems, although these are

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Speaker 2: kind of currently under stress here. But you know, the

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Speaker 2: things which make up for social cohesion. I mean, you

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Speaker 2: can see also what happens when when you move in

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Speaker 2: a direction of heavy militarization like the US. I mean

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Speaker 2: that's now I've dropped one hundred and twenty eight out

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Speaker 2: of one hundred sixty three countries.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, I see, Kevin, Thanks so much, appreciate your time.

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Speaker 1: That's Kevin Clements, Emeritus Professor of Peace and Conflict Studies

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Speaker 1: at the University of Otaga.

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