1 00:00:06,440 --> 00:00:06,880 Speaker 1: Jilda. 2 00:00:06,880 --> 00:00:09,960 Speaker 2: I'm Chelsea Daniels and This is the Front Page, a 3 00:00:10,080 --> 00:00:16,159 Speaker 2: daily podcast presented by The New Zealand Herald. There have 4 00:00:16,200 --> 00:00:19,439 Speaker 2: been a number of headlines trending throughout twenty twenty five 5 00:00:19,560 --> 00:00:25,160 Speaker 2: so far, tariffs, trade wars, geopolitical tensions, and romance scams. 6 00:00:25,760 --> 00:00:30,880 Speaker 2: Fake online relationships better known as catfishing, have existed as 7 00:00:30,920 --> 00:00:34,600 Speaker 2: long as social media has been around, but the increasing 8 00:00:34,840 --> 00:00:38,280 Speaker 2: prevalence of AI is making it trickier to tell fact 9 00:00:38,479 --> 00:00:41,559 Speaker 2: from fiction. One woman in France was conned out of 10 00:00:41,640 --> 00:00:45,000 Speaker 2: eight hundred thousand euros after believing she was in a 11 00:00:45,040 --> 00:00:48,760 Speaker 2: relationship with Oscar winner Brad Pitt, while closer to home, 12 00:00:48,920 --> 00:00:53,160 Speaker 2: US based Kiwi actor Martin Henderson has seen his face 13 00:00:53,280 --> 00:00:56,480 Speaker 2: used as a front for these kind of scams. So 14 00:00:56,720 --> 00:01:00,760 Speaker 2: how common are these elaborate scams and what protections can 15 00:01:00,760 --> 00:01:04,720 Speaker 2: be put in place to better protect vulnerable people? Today 16 00:01:04,720 --> 00:01:08,640 Speaker 2: on the Front Page, National Cybersecurity Center Threat and Incident 17 00:01:08,760 --> 00:01:12,800 Speaker 2: Response Team Lead Tom Roberts is with us to discuss 18 00:01:12,920 --> 00:01:19,640 Speaker 2: what can be done to break up with these scammers. 19 00:01:20,720 --> 00:01:24,400 Speaker 2: First off, Tom, it seems like we're hearing about romance 20 00:01:24,440 --> 00:01:28,759 Speaker 2: scams all the time, Awful tales of pensioners losing their 21 00:01:28,760 --> 00:01:33,160 Speaker 2: retirement savings, and people believing they're in relationships with celebrities online. 22 00:01:33,280 --> 00:01:35,720 Speaker 2: Things like that. Can you tell me how prevalent they 23 00:01:35,760 --> 00:01:37,440 Speaker 2: actually are in New Zealand? 24 00:01:37,640 --> 00:01:41,399 Speaker 3: Well, we know romance scams or dating scams or that 25 00:01:41,440 --> 00:01:46,840 Speaker 3: sort of thing are severely underreported. People feel ashamed about it. 26 00:01:46,920 --> 00:01:50,720 Speaker 3: They feel like they're more vulnerable because they've potentially lost something, 27 00:01:50,800 --> 00:01:54,080 Speaker 3: they've exposed something often that involves sending intimate images, and 28 00:01:54,120 --> 00:01:57,280 Speaker 3: so therefore people don't want to report things for us. 29 00:01:57,280 --> 00:02:03,120 Speaker 3: Over the last reporting period, we saw about twenty eight 30 00:02:03,320 --> 00:02:06,240 Speaker 3: dating and romance scams reported through to US. We know 31 00:02:06,320 --> 00:02:08,840 Speaker 3: that number is very low. For what I said earlier, 32 00:02:08,880 --> 00:02:11,320 Speaker 3: It's awful, though, isn't it. It's exceptionally awful. 33 00:02:11,400 --> 00:02:14,119 Speaker 2: Do we know how much money is being lost due 34 00:02:14,160 --> 00:02:15,440 Speaker 2: to romance scams. 35 00:02:15,800 --> 00:02:19,960 Speaker 3: I don't have specific data relating directly to romance scams. 36 00:02:20,120 --> 00:02:23,480 Speaker 3: I can say we had seventeen incidents over the last 37 00:02:24,880 --> 00:02:27,360 Speaker 3: year that was one hundred thousand or more, and that 38 00:02:27,480 --> 00:02:30,000 Speaker 3: was for you know, for whatever. It could have been 39 00:02:30,080 --> 00:02:34,800 Speaker 3: unauthorized access, cryptocurrency scams, you know, people being tricked at 40 00:02:35,200 --> 00:02:38,799 Speaker 3: when they're buying property. We had one for dating and romance, 41 00:02:39,000 --> 00:02:41,280 Speaker 3: and that dating and romance scam category of over one 42 00:02:41,360 --> 00:02:45,120 Speaker 3: hundred thousand dollars. What's particularly concerning about the dating and 43 00:02:45,200 --> 00:02:47,040 Speaker 3: romance scams is the way that they get money out 44 00:02:47,080 --> 00:02:50,359 Speaker 3: of people is like it's a slow leach. It's withdrawing 45 00:02:50,440 --> 00:02:53,040 Speaker 3: money small amounts over a long period of time. You 46 00:02:53,080 --> 00:02:55,680 Speaker 3: don't actually realize that a lot of that money is 47 00:02:55,800 --> 00:02:57,799 Speaker 3: leaving your bank account. It could be, you know, fifty 48 00:02:57,840 --> 00:03:00,520 Speaker 3: dollars for a bill here, twenty dollars for a bit there, 49 00:03:00,600 --> 00:03:03,240 Speaker 3: and before you know it, you're hooked and you've drained 50 00:03:03,240 --> 00:03:04,120 Speaker 3: a lot of your bank account. 51 00:03:04,160 --> 00:03:08,480 Speaker 2: Yeah. Apparently A and Z alone sees about three cases 52 00:03:08,600 --> 00:03:11,720 Speaker 2: a week where customers suffered a financial loss from a 53 00:03:11,840 --> 00:03:16,440 Speaker 2: romance or friendship scam. The average loss was thirteen thousand, 54 00:03:16,639 --> 00:03:20,680 Speaker 2: five hundred compared to two thousand, five hundred for any 55 00:03:20,760 --> 00:03:23,000 Speaker 2: other type of scam. Do you reckon? That's about right? 56 00:03:23,160 --> 00:03:25,520 Speaker 3: Yeah, and ain zid You know, being a bank, when 57 00:03:25,560 --> 00:03:28,600 Speaker 3: people have a problem with their finances, they go directly 58 00:03:28,639 --> 00:03:30,359 Speaker 3: to the bank, as they should. You know, the bank 59 00:03:30,400 --> 00:03:33,560 Speaker 3: will stop any transactions, automatic payments, and potentially help recruiter 60 00:03:33,680 --> 00:03:35,800 Speaker 3: with funds where they can, So that would probably be 61 00:03:35,840 --> 00:03:36,320 Speaker 3: about right. 62 00:03:36,440 --> 00:03:39,440 Speaker 2: So, when these scams happen and they're reported to you, guys, 63 00:03:39,560 --> 00:03:41,320 Speaker 2: what are the next steps from there? What do you 64 00:03:41,360 --> 00:03:41,760 Speaker 2: do with it? 65 00:03:42,160 --> 00:03:44,720 Speaker 3: Well, at NCC, we really just make sure that their 66 00:03:44,760 --> 00:03:50,920 Speaker 3: cybersecurity hygiene and security is top notch and intact. Then 67 00:03:51,280 --> 00:03:55,400 Speaker 3: the police or net safe are, depending on the type 68 00:03:55,400 --> 00:03:58,480 Speaker 3: there will be able to provide that further advice. Certainly, 69 00:03:58,520 --> 00:04:01,520 Speaker 3: we help them get into a date where you know, 70 00:04:01,920 --> 00:04:05,240 Speaker 3: the bad person doesn't have access to their Gmail accounts 71 00:04:05,320 --> 00:04:08,600 Speaker 3: or their Facebok or potentially their bank accounts, and we 72 00:04:08,680 --> 00:04:10,600 Speaker 3: make sure that they have the right advice, the best 73 00:04:10,640 --> 00:04:13,680 Speaker 3: advice in the world to be able to secure their 74 00:04:13,720 --> 00:04:16,560 Speaker 3: cyber defenses. After that, the police can go down that 75 00:04:16,640 --> 00:04:20,960 Speaker 3: prosecution track depending on the information that they've got available. 76 00:04:21,279 --> 00:04:24,920 Speaker 2: Just this year, we heard of how multiple women around 77 00:04:24,920 --> 00:04:28,719 Speaker 2: the world poured money and emotions into a romance scam 78 00:04:28,839 --> 00:04:32,640 Speaker 2: using the image of a former Shortland Street star, Martin Henderson. 79 00:04:33,680 --> 00:04:40,159 Speaker 4: Martin here just wanted to warn people again of the 80 00:04:40,240 --> 00:04:43,000 Speaker 4: fact that there are a lot of people out there 81 00:04:43,040 --> 00:04:45,720 Speaker 4: who are pretending to be me and trying to get 82 00:04:45,839 --> 00:04:49,559 Speaker 4: people to believe that I'm in need and I need 83 00:04:50,040 --> 00:04:55,160 Speaker 4: financial help or medical help, and they're essentially fleecing people 84 00:04:55,200 --> 00:04:57,200 Speaker 4: out of a lot of money. I just can't tell 85 00:04:57,240 --> 00:05:00,479 Speaker 4: people enough. I don't communicate with my followers. This is 86 00:05:00,480 --> 00:05:03,359 Speaker 4: my only account, I promise you I do not I 87 00:05:03,400 --> 00:05:04,839 Speaker 4: don't have another account. 88 00:05:05,800 --> 00:05:09,440 Speaker 2: They lost hundreds of thousands of dollars and dedicated years 89 00:05:09,600 --> 00:05:13,400 Speaker 2: to fake relationships. One woman alone lost three hundred and 90 00:05:13,480 --> 00:05:17,800 Speaker 2: seventy five thousand dollars. Now, using a celebrities likeness and 91 00:05:18,080 --> 00:05:21,200 Speaker 2: catfishing is just one way a romance scam works. 92 00:05:21,200 --> 00:05:25,279 Speaker 3: Hey, yeah, there's multiple, absolutely multiple. They could be pretending 93 00:05:25,320 --> 00:05:28,360 Speaker 3: to be a friend that you haven't seen in years. 94 00:05:29,200 --> 00:05:33,640 Speaker 3: They could be using AI generated images. There's dozens and dozens. 95 00:05:34,200 --> 00:05:36,680 Speaker 3: It's really bad for the celebrity ones because you've also 96 00:05:36,760 --> 00:05:39,400 Speaker 3: got the well known person that's in the news and media, 97 00:05:39,440 --> 00:05:41,880 Speaker 3: and then all of a sudden, you know their name 98 00:05:42,000 --> 00:05:44,719 Speaker 3: is being dragged through the mud. So it's awful for 99 00:05:44,760 --> 00:05:45,720 Speaker 3: everyone involved. 100 00:05:51,680 --> 00:05:54,600 Speaker 1: Yeah, this French woman was swindle. I don't know if 101 00:05:54,640 --> 00:05:56,640 Speaker 1: you heard about this. She was windled out of a 102 00:05:56,680 --> 00:06:00,800 Speaker 1: ton of money from somebody pretending to be rare. I 103 00:06:00,800 --> 00:06:03,680 Speaker 1: don't like this AI stuff. The scammer used AI to 104 00:06:03,760 --> 00:06:08,279 Speaker 1: generate pictures of Brad Pit. They catfished her for so 105 00:06:08,560 --> 00:06:13,279 Speaker 1: long that she thought she was dating rab Pit. So 106 00:06:13,360 --> 00:06:16,440 Speaker 1: what the scammers did was the scammers then said Radpit 107 00:06:16,600 --> 00:06:19,880 Speaker 1: needed money for surgery. Okay, when I heard that, I said, 108 00:06:20,200 --> 00:06:22,800 Speaker 1: I would like to know if the scammers are hiring, 109 00:06:22,880 --> 00:06:24,240 Speaker 1: because apparently. 110 00:06:25,560 --> 00:06:26,400 Speaker 2: I'm doing something what. 111 00:06:30,000 --> 00:06:36,160 Speaker 1: I mean, good, great, honoring, integrity. 112 00:06:38,240 --> 00:06:40,200 Speaker 2: And I saw a woman who believed she was in 113 00:06:40,240 --> 00:06:43,080 Speaker 2: a relationship with Brad Pitt, who believed she was sending 114 00:06:43,160 --> 00:06:46,640 Speaker 2: him around one point five million dollars for cancer treatment. Now, 115 00:06:46,680 --> 00:06:49,599 Speaker 2: the comments on that story I remember were pretty harsh, 116 00:06:49,720 --> 00:06:52,120 Speaker 2: things like, how could you believe this? That's stupid, that 117 00:06:52,200 --> 00:06:54,480 Speaker 2: kind of thing. But that's a huge reason why people 118 00:06:54,520 --> 00:06:57,000 Speaker 2: don't come forward. Hey, that embarrassment aspect. 119 00:06:57,279 --> 00:07:00,680 Speaker 3: Yeah, embarrassment is the number one reason why people wouldn't 120 00:07:00,720 --> 00:07:02,760 Speaker 3: come forward about this sort of thing. I think when 121 00:07:02,800 --> 00:07:06,240 Speaker 3: people are commenting on this, they need to make sure 122 00:07:06,240 --> 00:07:09,840 Speaker 3: that they remember these people aren't just strangers. They could 123 00:07:09,920 --> 00:07:13,480 Speaker 3: be your brother, sis, the best friend. Because people don't 124 00:07:13,520 --> 00:07:16,640 Speaker 3: really talk about this so much, that's why people fall 125 00:07:16,680 --> 00:07:19,400 Speaker 3: into the trap, and that's why it's not found sooner. 126 00:07:19,520 --> 00:07:22,160 Speaker 3: These people that often fall for these types of scams, 127 00:07:22,160 --> 00:07:24,600 Speaker 3: they're not blow people they're not. They're just the regular 128 00:07:24,640 --> 00:07:29,160 Speaker 3: citizens who truly believe that they are in love and 129 00:07:29,320 --> 00:07:32,160 Speaker 3: really nastily. You know, the bad actors that are siphoning 130 00:07:32,160 --> 00:07:34,600 Speaker 3: the money are really good at their social engineering and 131 00:07:34,720 --> 00:07:38,040 Speaker 3: they're really really manipulative in a way that many people 132 00:07:38,080 --> 00:07:39,600 Speaker 3: potentially don't ever experience. 133 00:07:39,720 --> 00:07:41,120 Speaker 2: And what are some of those ways. 134 00:07:41,360 --> 00:07:44,920 Speaker 3: Yeah, So when they start, they'll start with small amounts 135 00:07:44,920 --> 00:07:47,360 Speaker 3: of money typically, and then they'll start doing it on 136 00:07:47,400 --> 00:07:49,800 Speaker 3: a very regular basis, and you know, it'll just be 137 00:07:49,920 --> 00:07:52,760 Speaker 3: consistent over time. Then there might be a wee bit 138 00:07:52,800 --> 00:07:55,600 Speaker 3: of gas lighting in there. There might be depending on 139 00:07:55,640 --> 00:07:57,920 Speaker 3: how they're doing it. If they're using different technology, they 140 00:07:58,000 --> 00:08:00,160 Speaker 3: might say, let's have video calls, and so if people 141 00:08:00,440 --> 00:08:03,520 Speaker 3: having video calls with people that they think of their love, 142 00:08:03,760 --> 00:08:06,240 Speaker 3: of their life, and the adds legitimacy to us, and 143 00:08:06,240 --> 00:08:08,520 Speaker 3: then they'll say, hey, let's potentially can you pay two 144 00:08:08,560 --> 00:08:11,600 Speaker 3: thousand dollars for me to fly over or something like that. 145 00:08:11,760 --> 00:08:15,320 Speaker 3: And then it starts getting really deep and really dark, 146 00:08:15,600 --> 00:08:18,200 Speaker 3: not necessarily quickly, but over a period of time. And 147 00:08:18,240 --> 00:08:21,200 Speaker 3: then when you've got you know, the elderly element to it, 148 00:08:21,280 --> 00:08:25,320 Speaker 3: Like you mentioned before, these elderly don't necessarily want to 149 00:08:25,320 --> 00:08:27,800 Speaker 3: talk about this stuff, so because it can be very 150 00:08:27,800 --> 00:08:30,200 Speaker 3: embarrassing if they've got to tell their kids and things 151 00:08:30,280 --> 00:08:32,680 Speaker 3: like that. So, look, there's multiple ways that they do it. 152 00:08:32,720 --> 00:08:36,640 Speaker 3: But these social engineers are exceptionally skilled or what they do, 153 00:08:36,760 --> 00:08:38,160 Speaker 3: and what they do is exceptionally nasty. 154 00:08:38,320 --> 00:08:40,680 Speaker 2: Yeah. Another case was an Auckland man who met a 155 00:08:40,720 --> 00:08:44,720 Speaker 2: Singaporean woman on a dating app tender. He was tricked 156 00:08:44,720 --> 00:08:47,840 Speaker 2: into sending five hundred and sixty nine thousand dollars believing 157 00:08:47,880 --> 00:08:50,960 Speaker 2: he was investing in bitcoin. Now, how has the rise 158 00:08:51,000 --> 00:08:53,520 Speaker 2: of dating apps changed the game here? 159 00:08:54,120 --> 00:08:56,480 Speaker 3: It just makes it more easy for people to be 160 00:08:56,520 --> 00:09:00,160 Speaker 3: fooled into fake relationships. The people that do them are 161 00:09:00,200 --> 00:09:03,840 Speaker 3: often working in these sort of scam farm type areas 162 00:09:03,880 --> 00:09:06,959 Speaker 3: where they are basically being some of them are being 163 00:09:06,960 --> 00:09:10,480 Speaker 3: held under slave like conditions to extort money out of 164 00:09:10,480 --> 00:09:14,280 Speaker 3: people through multiple different romance scams at once. There's that 165 00:09:14,400 --> 00:09:16,319 Speaker 3: element to I guess about it. 166 00:09:16,400 --> 00:09:18,920 Speaker 2: So there are places around the world where people are 167 00:09:18,920 --> 00:09:21,920 Speaker 2: being held against their will and working in a kind 168 00:09:21,960 --> 00:09:24,160 Speaker 2: of factory, scam factory or something. 169 00:09:24,400 --> 00:09:27,400 Speaker 3: Yeah. Absolutely, and I'm certainly not going to name places, 170 00:09:27,440 --> 00:09:30,320 Speaker 3: but there are places where they basically go and they 171 00:09:30,360 --> 00:09:31,800 Speaker 3: think they're going to be going into work, and then 172 00:09:31,840 --> 00:09:35,360 Speaker 3: they'll get their passports and their identity documents held captive 173 00:09:35,880 --> 00:09:38,240 Speaker 3: and then told that you can work them back for 174 00:09:38,320 --> 00:09:40,520 Speaker 3: a certain amount of money. So often the people that 175 00:09:40,600 --> 00:09:43,360 Speaker 3: are doing the scamming are victims as well, which is 176 00:09:43,480 --> 00:09:46,240 Speaker 3: just terrific. And then the money flows back into organized crime, 177 00:09:46,280 --> 00:09:48,240 Speaker 3: and then you have that sort of thing. To your 178 00:09:48,240 --> 00:09:52,160 Speaker 3: point about cryptocurrency or dating apps before, it sort of 179 00:09:52,200 --> 00:09:55,080 Speaker 3: means that because everything's digital, that the scammers or the 180 00:09:55,160 --> 00:09:58,360 Speaker 3: nasty actors can run multiple at a time if they're 181 00:09:58,400 --> 00:10:00,200 Speaker 3: in a different time zone. You know, that gives them 182 00:10:00,240 --> 00:10:03,680 Speaker 3: the excuse to delay messaging you. So we'll delay messaging 183 00:10:03,720 --> 00:10:07,120 Speaker 3: the victims so then they can run multiple This anecdotal 184 00:10:07,120 --> 00:10:11,000 Speaker 3: evidence of now chatbots being used from machine learning algorithms. 185 00:10:11,080 --> 00:10:14,720 Speaker 3: So it's getting complex, it's getting dark, and unfortunately it 186 00:10:14,720 --> 00:10:16,520 Speaker 3: doesn't look like it's stopping anytime soon. 187 00:10:28,400 --> 00:10:31,480 Speaker 2: In a world where it seems impossible to meet somebody 188 00:10:31,600 --> 00:10:34,560 Speaker 2: organically and online dating is kind of the new norm, 189 00:10:34,800 --> 00:10:37,439 Speaker 2: how do people stay vigilant if. 190 00:10:37,400 --> 00:10:40,160 Speaker 3: You're using dating apps and to meet someone, All I'd 191 00:10:40,200 --> 00:10:43,440 Speaker 3: say is that you just need to verify through different methods, right, 192 00:10:43,520 --> 00:10:46,200 Speaker 3: So try and meet them as soon as possible, you know, 193 00:10:46,280 --> 00:10:49,160 Speaker 3: move away from the apps, try and move to a 194 00:10:49,280 --> 00:10:52,880 Speaker 3: method that you can verify. Even video calling might not 195 00:10:53,000 --> 00:10:55,920 Speaker 3: necessarily be enough. But then if you're traveling overseas to 196 00:10:55,920 --> 00:10:57,600 Speaker 3: meet these people, you know you're going to have to 197 00:10:57,600 --> 00:11:00,880 Speaker 3: be cognizant of the safety elements that come into it. 198 00:11:00,960 --> 00:11:03,760 Speaker 3: People just have to apply a certain amount of risk 199 00:11:03,960 --> 00:11:06,800 Speaker 3: to themselves or a risk thought to themselves. The old 200 00:11:06,840 --> 00:11:08,880 Speaker 3: fear go adage. If it's too good to be sure, 201 00:11:08,920 --> 00:11:12,840 Speaker 3: it probably is, and then yeah, just make sure you verify, verify, verify. 202 00:11:13,000 --> 00:11:14,960 Speaker 2: What's one of the worst cases you've seen. 203 00:11:15,280 --> 00:11:18,520 Speaker 3: To be honest, the worst case that I've seen wasn't 204 00:11:18,559 --> 00:11:22,400 Speaker 3: necessarily involving money so much, or at that point it 205 00:11:22,440 --> 00:11:25,600 Speaker 3: didn't involve money, but it was involving into images. And 206 00:11:25,679 --> 00:11:28,560 Speaker 3: so this person got into a bit of a romance scan. 207 00:11:28,600 --> 00:11:30,600 Speaker 3: They reached out and said, hey, I don't think this 208 00:11:30,640 --> 00:11:34,200 Speaker 3: is quite right. And then the person or the bad 209 00:11:34,200 --> 00:11:36,680 Speaker 3: actors started saying that, you know, I've got all these 210 00:11:36,840 --> 00:11:39,120 Speaker 3: images of you. I'm going to show the world, I'm 211 00:11:39,120 --> 00:11:40,839 Speaker 3: going to show your friends, I'm going to show your family, 212 00:11:40,880 --> 00:11:42,760 Speaker 3: I'm going to ruin your job. I'm going to ruin 213 00:11:42,800 --> 00:11:45,920 Speaker 3: your career aspects. This poor person was just having an 214 00:11:45,960 --> 00:11:49,840 Speaker 3: absolute mental battle that they were going through. Fortunately, what 215 00:11:49,880 --> 00:11:51,559 Speaker 3: we were able to say to them is that we 216 00:11:52,040 --> 00:11:55,400 Speaker 3: passed them over to the right agencies as well, but 217 00:11:55,480 --> 00:11:58,520 Speaker 3: also that the bad actors often can't hurt you as 218 00:11:58,559 --> 00:12:00,600 Speaker 3: much as what they think, and they'll have you to 219 00:12:00,640 --> 00:12:03,240 Speaker 3: believe that the world is going to end, but it's not. 220 00:12:03,480 --> 00:12:06,320 Speaker 3: They often don't have as much power as what they'll claim. 221 00:12:06,360 --> 00:12:09,000 Speaker 3: They'll say that they will send stuff, or they'll expose 222 00:12:09,040 --> 00:12:11,200 Speaker 3: you to the world and things like that. Even if 223 00:12:11,240 --> 00:12:13,200 Speaker 3: they did do that, the person that's going to be 224 00:12:13,240 --> 00:12:15,480 Speaker 3: exposed is going to be seen as a victim, right, 225 00:12:15,920 --> 00:12:17,720 Speaker 3: It's going to be a tough period. But even if 226 00:12:17,760 --> 00:12:19,800 Speaker 3: the actor could do that, so, yeah, it was. It was. 227 00:12:19,840 --> 00:12:22,120 Speaker 3: It was really rough for the person involved. I think 228 00:12:22,160 --> 00:12:24,320 Speaker 3: they're doing a lot better now, thankfully, but just the 229 00:12:24,400 --> 00:12:26,800 Speaker 3: mental toll was was heart wrenching. 230 00:12:29,800 --> 00:12:34,960 Speaker 5: Cybersecurity expert Dominic Tuifoccus so scamers are grabbing videos posted 231 00:12:35,080 --> 00:12:39,720 Speaker 5: online to create AI generated avatars that look and sound 232 00:12:39,880 --> 00:12:42,920 Speaker 5: so much like the real person. They can fool people 233 00:12:43,040 --> 00:12:44,200 Speaker 5: who know them well. 234 00:12:44,559 --> 00:12:46,640 Speaker 6: You can even use just a picture of the person 235 00:12:47,559 --> 00:12:50,120 Speaker 6: and then the lip syncing will will take care of 236 00:12:50,160 --> 00:12:53,679 Speaker 6: the rest. So yeah, it doesn't. You don't need long 237 00:12:53,760 --> 00:12:56,720 Speaker 6: video segments even if still image will do. 238 00:13:00,720 --> 00:13:03,360 Speaker 2: And when it comes to video calling, you mentioned that 239 00:13:03,400 --> 00:13:06,000 Speaker 2: it might not be enough. Is that because AI you 240 00:13:06,000 --> 00:13:09,800 Speaker 2: can actually mimic video calls or use other videos to 241 00:13:09,840 --> 00:13:10,880 Speaker 2: try and mimic a call. 242 00:13:15,880 --> 00:13:19,320 Speaker 3: Yeah, and it's becoming easier and it's becoming cheaper. So 243 00:13:19,400 --> 00:13:23,520 Speaker 3: it is for a person that's dedicated or determined enough, 244 00:13:23,640 --> 00:13:27,280 Speaker 3: they can absolutely fake someone's face onto their body. There's 245 00:13:27,280 --> 00:13:29,760 Speaker 3: some simple checks that you can do, you know, which 246 00:13:29,840 --> 00:13:31,920 Speaker 3: is asking them to put the hand in front of 247 00:13:31,920 --> 00:13:34,360 Speaker 3: their face, or turn the heat right round, or get 248 00:13:34,440 --> 00:13:36,760 Speaker 3: up and pick something up from the background. But even 249 00:13:36,800 --> 00:13:39,679 Speaker 3: then that can often not be enough for some things 250 00:13:39,679 --> 00:13:42,319 Speaker 3: because people can just replay videos of them doing that, 251 00:13:42,720 --> 00:13:45,160 Speaker 3: and they might set up their background knowing that someone's 252 00:13:45,200 --> 00:13:47,080 Speaker 3: going to ask them to pick stuff up. So yeah, 253 00:13:47,120 --> 00:13:51,120 Speaker 3: that the rise in artificial intelligence generated imagery is. 254 00:13:51,400 --> 00:13:54,000 Speaker 2: Also heard as well. If you think that somebody is 255 00:13:54,040 --> 00:13:57,560 Speaker 2: sent to an AI generated photo to ask them to 256 00:13:57,679 --> 00:14:01,000 Speaker 2: send a photo back with an okay symbol with your hands, 257 00:14:01,040 --> 00:14:04,560 Speaker 2: because the AI cannot really generate hands too well. Is 258 00:14:04,559 --> 00:14:04,920 Speaker 2: that right. 259 00:14:05,160 --> 00:14:08,839 Speaker 3: Yeah. Absolutely, small details like that show me, you know, 260 00:14:09,040 --> 00:14:13,480 Speaker 3: pulling your left ear or something like that that is 261 00:14:13,520 --> 00:14:15,559 Speaker 3: going to have a limited shelf life on its ability 262 00:14:15,600 --> 00:14:18,240 Speaker 3: to be able to work, but at the moment, for 263 00:14:18,400 --> 00:14:20,360 Speaker 3: most things, it seems to be a good method. 264 00:14:20,440 --> 00:14:27,000 Speaker 2: Thanks for joining us, Tom, Thank you very much. That's 265 00:14:27,040 --> 00:14:30,040 Speaker 2: it for this episode of The Front Page. You can 266 00:14:30,080 --> 00:14:33,920 Speaker 2: read more about today's stories and extensive news coverage at 267 00:14:34,000 --> 00:14:38,280 Speaker 2: enzdherld dot co dot MZ. The Front Page is produced 268 00:14:38,280 --> 00:14:41,760 Speaker 2: by Ethan Sills and Richard Martin, who is also a 269 00:14:41,960 --> 00:14:46,640 Speaker 2: sound engineer. I'm Chelsea Daniels. Subscribe to The Front Page 270 00:14:46,680 --> 00:14:50,240 Speaker 2: on iHeartRadio or wherever you get your podcasts, and tune 271 00:14:50,240 --> 00:14:53,920 Speaker 2: in on Monday for another look behind the headlines.