Speaker 1: Today on Shared Lunch, we're taking a moment to remember
Speaker 1: Nigel Latter, who passed away last week at the age
Speaker 1: of fifty eight. As most New Zealanders know, Nigel was
Speaker 1: a true Kiwi icon, someone who tackled urgent, complex topics
Speaker 1: with curiosity, honesty, and warmth. As an author and a broadcaster,
Speaker 1: he made psychology and big national issues feel relatable and real.
Speaker 1: Nigel made time for everyone, including us, and we're grateful
Speaker 1: to have had the chance to talk with him. Today
Speaker 1: we're resharing that conversation as a tribute to Nigel with
Speaker 1: his personal and thoughtful reflections on how to talk to
Speaker 1: kids and faro about money and connecting those conversations to
Speaker 1: what really matters our values.
Speaker 2: So thanks so much for Green to have a yarn
Speaker 2: to me about kids and money and all that fun stuff.
Speaker 2: Do you want to tell us a bit about you
Speaker 2: and what your interests are?
Speaker 3: I never ever expected to be on Telly, like I
Speaker 3: grew up in the east coast of South Oland. It's
Speaker 3: like I don't know, like it was just I don't
Speaker 3: list all. A lot of us is mysteriou to me
Speaker 3: how any of this happened, but so so for me
Speaker 3: it's kind of like, so most people kind of know
Speaker 3: me from that point where I started doing the Tally stuff,
Speaker 3: but I like twenty something years of doing clinical stuff
Speaker 3: before that, and so most of my clinical work was
Speaker 3: kind of teenagers and families and they're sort of what
Speaker 3: used to be suspects now that I rang out to
Speaker 3: Mariki stuff in prisons and sort of all of that,
Speaker 3: and so I kind of come out of that and
Speaker 3: then into TV like literally everything that we ever makes
Speaker 3: me going, I don't know anything about this thing. I'm
Speaker 3: going to go and talk to some people who know,
Speaker 3: and then I basically just go around asking questions because
Speaker 3: I don't know what's going on. But still somehow people
Speaker 3: think that's me saying I know stuff, and like no,
Speaker 3: I'm really not, Like I'm literally just bumbling about the
Speaker 3: place chatting to people who do know stuff, which is
Speaker 3: actually that's the best part of it. I guess, like
Speaker 3: if I really think about the stuff that interests me,
Speaker 3: it's like it really is about how do you I
Speaker 3: understand people and what's going on with people? And then
Speaker 3: it's like how do you take that sort of complicated
Speaker 3: stuff and simplify and make it easier for people? To understand.
Speaker 3: And that's where Tally's really good. Like, I think a
Speaker 3: lot of psychologists get really anxious about doing media stuff
Speaker 3: because they think, oh, I can't give a full nuanced
Speaker 3: answer this really complicated question. And it's like, well, no
Speaker 3: you can't. Like so you can't you can't cover them
Speaker 3: off because you'll get twenty or thirty seconds and they'll
Speaker 3: cut you out. But I think what we can do is,
Speaker 3: I think it is really important to be kind of
Speaker 3: actively trying to help people to understand stuff. And what
Speaker 3: doing TALLY is really greater at is you have to
Speaker 3: make really complicated things simple.
Speaker 2: You're obviously very in tune with parents and families from
Speaker 2: a lot of your research and know you have looked
Speaker 2: into money and children and yeah those dynamics too. Yeah
Speaker 2: what lengths did you have to go to kind of
Speaker 2: explore that topic.
Speaker 3: Yeah, So we made the kind of mind of a
Speaker 3: money show a few years ago an Shua Kiwi bank
Speaker 3: definitely Qui Bank great. They would just said, here's a
Speaker 3: bunch of money. You guys know what you're doing, make
Speaker 3: a TV show. So it was really good. We kind
Speaker 3: of talk about like the secret engine, so you have
Speaker 3: to have some kind of intellectual kind of secret engine
Speaker 3: basis to the content that you're talking about, and then
Speaker 3: try to make that kind of interesting for people. So
Speaker 3: we started thinking about this idea of kind of money personalities,
Speaker 3: and there is some stuff around that that you know
Speaker 3: there some of us are more about security, and some
Speaker 3: of us more about experiences, and some of us, you know,
Speaker 3: money is about freedom, it's about the social stuff. And
Speaker 3: so money is just like what we do with their
Speaker 3: money fundamentally just reflects the values of who we are.
Speaker 3: I mean, like I say, some people they just can't
Speaker 3: say because it's like they just want that dopamine rush
Speaker 3: of stuff. So it's like there are understanding I think
Speaker 3: your kind of money personality. And again, like I think
Speaker 3: that taps a lot into kind of temperament, and it
Speaker 3: taps a lot into kind of your kind of values
Speaker 3: and how you see the world. But that's another thing,
Speaker 3: getting humans to think long term, to think about the future,
Speaker 3: and that's really hard because we're not used to that.
Speaker 3: We're made for, you know, basically prehistoric times. We've got
Speaker 3: these one hundred thousand, maybe two hundred thousand year old brains.
Speaker 3: We're doing enormously complicated stuff with them. But they're still
Speaker 3: the same old brains. So they struggle with imagining the
Speaker 3: future and these really abstract kind of concepts because you know,
Speaker 3: they're more likely to be caught by you know, the
Speaker 3: little aptic go is bing, you've got three coins? Did
Speaker 3: I all amazing?
Speaker 2: Do you know say that's complicated for humans? Do you
Speaker 2: wonder if it's in some ways easier for kids without
Speaker 2: dreaming about the future of what could come next?
Speaker 3: I think the children what you can do is you
Speaker 3: can kind of model stuff, and you can start to
Speaker 3: set up some habits and things, and so, you know,
Speaker 3: for a lot of people, like I kind of grew
Speaker 3: up on a house where we never really talked about money,
Speaker 3: Like it wasn't a thing that anyone ever talked about,
Speaker 3: and so I didn't really have any understanding of that
Speaker 3: kind of stuff. And it was because you know, like
Speaker 3: my dad was a builder and my mom was a mum,
Speaker 3: and it was just like their world was you work
Speaker 3: your money and then you spend it on stuff. And
Speaker 3: so like I remember, like as a young man reading
Speaker 3: that Richard Kiyosaki rich Dad, poor Dad thing and thinking, man,
Speaker 3: this passive income stuff, this sounds pretty good, Like I
Speaker 3: want me some of that, but like that wasn't stuff
Speaker 3: that I ever learned, and so I do think it's
Speaker 3: important for parents to to kind of talk to kids
Speaker 3: about that stuff and to talk about you know, to
Speaker 3: find ways to teach them that sort of delayed gratification stuff.
Speaker 3: So like when I remember, like my boys were little,
Speaker 3: they had the pocket money thing, right, and they would
Speaker 3: just get like we didn't make them save it, and
Speaker 3: we just said, well, look it's yours. You can decide
Speaker 3: what you do. And so my youngest guy, he was
Speaker 3: like every week ago and buy some two dollars crappy
Speaker 3: little thing and that would break and break and break.
Speaker 3: But his brother would kind of save up and he
Speaker 3: would you know, get bigger, cooler stuff. And so eventually
Speaker 3: the younger one thought I must start saving the stuff.
Speaker 3: He had to go through that. It is like when
Speaker 3: you first when you first get money, and it's like
Speaker 3: your own money, that's a pretty amazing thing. I remember
Speaker 3: my first job when I and I'm so old, I
Speaker 3: got a check book and I remember thinking, oh my god,
Speaker 3: like a check book, all right, checks for stuff. It
Speaker 3: does feel kind of quite free and amazing. So you
Speaker 3: do have to go through that phase of kind of
Speaker 3: doing dumb stuff with it. But it's really helpful if
Speaker 3: you can start that conversation I think earlier with kids
Speaker 3: so they can start thinking about things like interest and
Speaker 3: delayed gratification and yeah, you can spend it all now
Speaker 3: or you could, but because that's about self control and
Speaker 3: self regulation and lots of really good skills.
Speaker 2: So for those that are thinking about setting up their
Speaker 2: kids with pocket money, how did you what do they
Speaker 2: need to do together their pocket money? And then also
Speaker 2: do you think you would go about look you choose
Speaker 2: what you do with it for a while, or actually,
Speaker 2: for certain money personalities, we're going to teach you spend, save,
Speaker 2: gift or whatever, you know, because actually I know you're
Speaker 2: just going to do whatever you want with it.
Speaker 3: You know. Yeah. Yeah, Well, So what I think is
Speaker 3: like this, I don't think there's any kind of rights
Speaker 3: or wrong, and I don't think there's any one sort
Speaker 3: of hard research sciences based on So I do think
Speaker 3: we know some stuff about about the stuff that you know,
Speaker 3: how we spend money, and it is that stuff about
Speaker 3: you know, saving someone, spending stuff and fun stuff and
Speaker 3: giving stuff we like that makes that kind of makes
Speaker 3: people feel better. So it's like, it's like all things parenting,
Speaker 3: you know, you have to like the more you understand
Speaker 3: about your kid and the attemperament and how they're wired
Speaker 3: together and how they see the world, then you can
Speaker 3: do some different things for them. Because for some kids
Speaker 3: it'll be like I've got it and now I'm going
Speaker 3: to spend it and what I don't know. I'm just
Speaker 3: going to throw it out the window because it feels cool,
Speaker 3: and other kids. He was like, man, you would say
Speaker 3: this do you're a hundred and you wouldn't. You wouldn't
Speaker 3: do anything with it. And so it is I think
Speaker 3: about that that first thing of when they first start
Speaker 3: to kind of get some pocket money and get a
Speaker 3: little bit of money. It's that it's like every other
Speaker 3: every other part of parenting. It's like, what kind of
Speaker 3: kid do I have? And how is their temperament? How
Speaker 3: is this going to work out for them later on?
Speaker 3: And what are the skills that I need to start
Speaker 3: teaching them now around the stuff. So if I've got
Speaker 3: a little spender, you know, I'm going to let that
Speaker 3: blow on for a bit so they can get that
Speaker 3: out of the system and then just start kind of
Speaker 3: gently file ways to kind of to bring it back. So,
Speaker 3: like you know, with my youngest, we didn't have to
Speaker 3: step in and make a policy. He just kind of
Speaker 3: got there himself. But if he just kept doing it,
Speaker 3: then I think we would have probably had some more
Speaker 3: focus conversations with him about like what do you like,
Speaker 3: what's the what's what's going on now? You know, and
Speaker 3: then we might have done some stuff like Okay, we're
Speaker 3: gonna we're going to take a fifty percent tax off you.
Speaker 3: It's called the future tax, and we're going to put
Speaker 3: this in this jar and you have to pay it
Speaker 3: because we're the government. This helders. And then at a
Speaker 3: certain time, we'll see how much is there and you
Speaker 3: can you can spend it on some stuff. Well, then
Speaker 3: you can make a decision about whether you increase your
Speaker 3: tax rate or what you do like that that kind
Speaker 3: of stuff.
Speaker 2: I'm really intrigued on what people what kids should be
Speaker 2: remunerated for with pocket money, Like how do you make
Speaker 2: sure their money are aware but not money hungry or
Speaker 2: money fearful? You know?
Speaker 3: Yeah, yeah, I mean I think it should be kind
Speaker 3: of values driven in your home, So like all families
Speaker 3: need to kind of figure out, like what are the
Speaker 3: values that drive our family and no one's got the
Speaker 3: you know, it's it's it's about finding the stuff that
Speaker 3: works for you. And so I personally, I think it's
Speaker 3: a good thing for kids to like pocket money and
Speaker 3: stuff that you get because you do some stuff to
Speaker 3: help out. And so if you do the stuff to
Speaker 3: help out, then you get paid, because it's kind of
Speaker 3: how the world is. And I know other people don't.
Speaker 3: They just just give it to their kids. And I
Speaker 3: don't think either strategy is right or wrong. I just
Speaker 3: think they are I think I think what people can
Speaker 3: do sometimes is they can just chuck money at kids
Speaker 3: and they have no sense of the value of it
Speaker 3: and they just waste stuff. And I don't think that's
Speaker 3: a good thing to do that. I think to have
Speaker 3: some sort of consciousness of the fact that actually, you know,
Speaker 3: this comes from somewhere, you know, like you losing your
Speaker 3: shoes at school for like the third time, that stuff
Speaker 3: comes from somewhere. So I think that you know, it's
Speaker 3: that consequential learning stuff about money is still fundamentally it's
Speaker 3: a resource that you have to make decisions about, and
Speaker 3: if you make poor decisions, then you end up in
Speaker 3: not such a great place.
Speaker 2: I remember when I had my children and I was
Speaker 2: becoming a parent, I was like, there's all these humans
Speaker 2: out there, it can't be that hard. Well, and then
Speaker 2: I thought there has to be a formula, like why
Speaker 2: isn't there a formulator like how to raise his child
Speaker 2: or how you know?
Speaker 3: And it kind of is right, I mean, there is
Speaker 3: a way of kind of there are some frameworks that
Speaker 3: you can apply to people, the temperament stuff, so that
Speaker 3: you can kind of understand because we all kind of
Speaker 3: we all kind of have a basic temperament, right You're
Speaker 3: you're an introvert or an extrovert, your you know, more
Speaker 3: intense or less intense, and that's we We're kind of
Speaker 3: keep that through our whole life. But it changes over
Speaker 3: a life as well, and so that's the really important
Speaker 3: but to kind of figure out what your kid's temperament
Speaker 3: is and then apply the things that work to that.
Speaker 3: Because really persistent, which is the nice way of saying
Speaker 3: stubborn kids. They're very different to the more kind of
Speaker 3: easy going quick do without to change kids.
Speaker 2: Yeah, I've got both. I call a strong.
Speaker 3: World because you have to it's not what we mean.
Speaker 2: I do need to touch on that introvert extra because
Speaker 2: I feel like I hear all the time, you know
Speaker 2: that being used, and I also hear all we shouldn't
Speaker 2: be using that. It's not actually how people are well.
Speaker 3: No, so that the temperament stuff's been around for over
Speaker 3: fifty years, and so what the extrast stuff is talking about?
Speaker 3: I think, I think what people get tangled up and
Speaker 3: they think there's a good one and a bad one,
Speaker 3: and they're not like extroverts have their things going and
Speaker 3: introverts to their thing going. That they're both introverts and
Speaker 3: introverts like people, but introverts find it draining to be
Speaker 3: around people and they fill up in quiet time, and
Speaker 3: extroverts get their energy from being around people and they
Speaker 3: find it draining being alone, and so like understanding that
Speaker 3: basic thing about yourself is fundamentally important by nature. I'm
Speaker 3: an introvert, so I find long periods of doing it
Speaker 3: social stuff like it's really tiring. I just need a
Speaker 3: little bit of quiet time. Weirdly, my partner is a
Speaker 3: real extrovert, and so for her it's kind of the opposite,
Speaker 3: but it's still kind of worked. And so it's not
Speaker 3: like there's not a good one or a bad one.
Speaker 3: They both have. There's both good and bad things about
Speaker 3: all of that. Just like you know, there are having
Speaker 3: a strong will kid is draining and exhausting. But those
Speaker 3: are the kids when the will goes you can't do that,
Speaker 3: they go shut up, I can't and they just do it,
Speaker 3: you know. And the kids who are more flexible, what
Speaker 3: they do is they find another way around it, or
Speaker 3: they're better at working with teams of people, all that
Speaker 3: kind of stuff. So there are good or bad temperaments.
Speaker 3: It's just who we are and then understanding that and
Speaker 3: trying to figure out how to use that.
Speaker 2: Yeah, personally, I've noticed myne change that's becoming a parent too.
Speaker 2: I think I was more extroverted and now I find
Speaker 2: if I can get a bit of a loan time,
Speaker 2: I'm like.
Speaker 3: Yeah, yeah, that's just survival. That's just like even kids,
Speaker 3: even if you're an ext of it, kids will scoop
Speaker 3: all of that out of you, and you just you
Speaker 3: just want to be away from tiny grasping fingers. It's
Speaker 3: like just I just want peace of just no one
Speaker 3: demanding stuff or anythings if something is my fault.
Speaker 2: Yeah, what are some top tips that it might not
Speaker 2: just be parents, grandparents, anybody in a child's life, What
Speaker 2: are some things that you wish you saw people do more?
Speaker 2: When that interacting with children when it comes.
Speaker 3: To money, money is just another way to teach kids'
Speaker 3: values and to show kids the stuff that's important for you.
Speaker 3: And so the way that you spend money and what
Speaker 3: you spend it on, that's that's just like the way
Speaker 3: you treat other people when you're out and about with
Speaker 3: your kids, Like that's teaching them things about your values,
Speaker 3: and they're looking at your values and making their decisions.
Speaker 3: So so I kind of think it's about, Okay, you
Speaker 3: just have to decide that values based stuff like how
Speaker 3: do how do we think you look after people? And
Speaker 3: how do we look after each other? And how do
Speaker 3: we treat other people? And I think you just have
Speaker 3: to be kind of values driven so that regardless of
Speaker 3: kind of how much money you have with your kids,
Speaker 3: that they are kind of making values based decisions about
Speaker 3: what they do with it. Parenting is essentially it's a
Speaker 3: long conversation, and so it's not like you do one
Speaker 3: thing and it's like, okay, we've done that. We did
Speaker 3: money from seven to nine, and now that's sorted. It's
Speaker 3: just this continuous kind of ongoing conversation when you.
Speaker 2: Reflect on yourself as a dad and how you've interacted
Speaker 2: with money with your children or what you've installed in
Speaker 2: them as anything you're really proud of, like a moment
Speaker 2: where you're like, oh, I think that really helped them.
Speaker 3: So I think one of the things that we kind
Speaker 3: of tried to do is like, I think it's fine
Speaker 3: to give your kids stuff, but you should give them
Speaker 3: stuff because you want to give them stuff, not just
Speaker 3: because they expect it or whatever. And so you know,
Speaker 3: when it comes a little word, we do stuff. But
Speaker 3: I remember again the youngest guy, I think we're in
Speaker 3: Queenstown or something, and he wanted this silver money box
Speaker 3: thing from Smuggle and like he never he was actually
Speaker 3: really mallow cutler, He would never have. He had this
Speaker 3: full on, two hour long meltdown because he had I
Speaker 3: don't know, four bucks or something and it was going
Speaker 3: to cost four dollars fifty and I chose that moment
Speaker 3: to teach him a little money lesson, and like to
Speaker 3: be honest, about twenty minutes and I was thinking, oh, man,
Speaker 3: I shouldn't we should just give them the kid the
Speaker 3: fifty cents because it's just getting really boring. It's like,
Speaker 3: I don't believe that he didn't. He hasn't sat down
Speaker 3: and say, you know, Baba, that day in Queenstown changed
Speaker 3: my heart look on life. He just remembers being really
Speaker 3: angry about us at the time. So if I look
Speaker 3: back to my too, I actually think it's more about
Speaker 3: their too, individual little personalities and temperaments are like I
Speaker 3: didn't think. I don't think it was anything any of
Speaker 3: that stuff that we didn't need necessary that made a difference.
Speaker 3: But I think as part of I think you need
Speaker 3: to see the money conversations with kids as being part
Speaker 3: of all of that stuff. Like so it's a really
Speaker 3: important part of life. And too, as they get older,
Speaker 3: I think you have to have conversations with them about
Speaker 3: the wider world of money, because like they're there. You know.
Speaker 3: It is things like you know, the counter narrative that
Speaker 3: poor people are poor because they're lazy and they do
Speaker 3: work hard, and it's like, well, actually most people are
Speaker 3: poor because they get paid the minimum wage and so
Speaker 3: they're actually working seventy or eighty hours a week. Like, well,
Speaker 3: now we've gone out and talked to and I've worked
Speaker 3: in homes and your famis where they're working far harder
Speaker 3: than I've ever worked. And so you know, the things
Speaker 3: like having conversations with your kids about how they think
Speaker 3: about stuff, because they get to vote at some point,
Speaker 3: so you have to decide, like, you know, what do
Speaker 3: you think about all the stuff about taxes and tax rates,
Speaker 3: and do we help other people out or do we
Speaker 3: just all help our soals? And what do we do
Speaker 3: about that? And you know, and generally what happens in
Speaker 3: the world as as more of us get closer to
Speaker 3: the edge, we suddenly decide that safety nets are a
Speaker 3: great thing. So all the people that winged about the
Speaker 3: dull blood is COVID comes along and it's like we
Speaker 3: get research and payments where there's big safety in that,
Speaker 3: and everyone's going, oh, this is the most great And
Speaker 3: then once we get more comfortable again, we forget that
Speaker 3: learning and some people kind of move on.
Speaker 2: I've got a real visual too of that. How you said,
Speaker 2: parenting is a lifelong conversation, and you just see it
Speaker 2: from you know, when you're your child is young and
Speaker 2: you might be teaching them delayed gratification through the Marshal
Speaker 2: arw test or chocolates to.
Speaker 3: You know, my oldest is now working and is doing
Speaker 3: Key we Saver, and so we're now having conversations about
Speaker 3: which Key we Save a scheme he is in and
Speaker 3: what he thinks about that stuff. And it's so yeah,
Speaker 3: it's like that stuff. It just it doesn't kind of
Speaker 3: end it is. It is a long conversation, and it's
Speaker 3: just like anything. It's not a separate conversation. And it's
Speaker 3: not like one single thing is the be all around
Speaker 3: all or anything. It's like they're all part of the
Speaker 3: same sort of long thing.
Speaker 2: I would love to see more people in the world
Speaker 2: and in particular like feel more that their money is
Speaker 2: we for them.
Speaker 3: There are some things that we can all do to
Speaker 3: kind of make better decisions and end up in a
Speaker 3: better place. Like if I if.
Speaker 2: I knew.
Speaker 3: When I was like starting off what I know now,
Speaker 3: I would be ending my life in a way different
Speaker 3: financial position, like just way different. I would have made
Speaker 3: some really different decisions. And so particularly in the world
Speaker 3: where traditional idea has been that you know, I'll buy
Speaker 3: a home and that'll be my biggest assort. Well, for
Speaker 3: more and more and more people, that's just never going
Speaker 3: to happen. So then what do you do with your
Speaker 3: money and you have to have ways to understand that
Speaker 3: basic concept of like making your money work for you,
Speaker 3: like that passive income stuff like you just put in
Speaker 3: a thing and then it does stuff. That's a really
Speaker 3: that's a really important idea, and increasingly we're going to
Speaker 3: have to, you know, those traditional routes of building some
Speaker 3: sort of legacy, which is the house that it's just
Speaker 3: not going to be for most people.
Speaker 2: Thanks so much for your insights around money, and I
Speaker 2: think it is really just important kind of to know
Speaker 2: that there isn't a wrong way. It's just about sharing
Speaker 2: the values and having those open communications and keeping their
Speaker 2: dialogue and just watching it grow and evolve from that
Speaker 2: nice The long conversation, The long conversation,