WEBVTT - Kyle MacDonald: Staying social after 65 0:00:05.761 --> 0:00:09.601 You're listening to the Weekend Collective podcast from News Talk SED. 0:00:09.641 --> 0:00:21.041 Be you longsome tonight? Do you miss. 0:00:20.001 --> 0:00:21.641 Are you sorry? 0:00:22.441 --> 0:00:23.361 We drifted? 0:00:29.081 --> 0:00:36.641 Does your mammal misty bray? 0:00:38.801 --> 0:00:39.881 When I kissed you? 0:00:39.961 --> 0:00:41.041 When I kissed you? 0:00:41.321 --> 0:00:46.441 And my producers worried that my MIC's on? 0:00:46.561 --> 0:00:49.321 I know my MIC's on. Tara's deliberately crooning along there. 0:00:51.321 --> 0:00:54.241 Welcome back to the Weekend Collective. If you've missed any 0:00:54.401 --> 0:00:56.641 we had an interesting discussion with both David Symbol and 0:00:56.721 --> 0:01:00.321 Duncan Webby's Justice spokespersons for Labor on the Treaty Principles bill. 0:01:00.481 --> 0:01:01.401 You can go and check that out. 0:01:01.401 --> 0:01:04.441 Look for the Weekend Collective wherever you wherever you get 0:01:04.481 --> 0:01:07.521 your podcast, actually not where the podcast, go to iHeartRadio. 0:01:07.561 --> 0:01:08.641 That's the easy way to do it. You can go 0:01:08.641 --> 0:01:11.281 to the news Talks'd website as well, and we get 0:01:11.321 --> 0:01:13.521 these hours loaded as quickly as we can once they 0:01:13.601 --> 0:01:16.521 have concluded. But right now it's time for a change 0:01:16.521 --> 0:01:18.881 of change of temperature or a change of subject at 0:01:18.961 --> 0:01:23.001 least the health up and my guest is psychotherapist. He's 0:01:23.001 --> 0:01:25.601 host of the Nutters Club, is regular guest on my show, 0:01:25.641 --> 0:01:27.881 and we're very grateful for that and his name is 0:01:28.001 --> 0:01:28.761 Carl McDonald. 0:01:28.761 --> 0:01:31.721 Hello, Kyl, how are you very well? Did you want 0:01:31.721 --> 0:01:32.601 to join him with Elvis? 0:01:32.601 --> 0:01:35.041 Then? I mean it's a very soothing way to get 0:01:35.081 --> 0:01:35.921 into the r, wasn't it. 0:01:35.961 --> 0:01:39.361 No, I wouldn't want to ruin your ratings singing. 0:01:39.881 --> 0:01:40.281 I don't know. 0:01:40.481 --> 0:01:41.801 I think you know you can get away with it 0:01:41.841 --> 0:01:42.681 to be sunfishal. 0:01:44.241 --> 0:01:47.041 I wouldn't try and imitate Elvis really seriously. I just 0:01:47.121 --> 0:01:50.161 love the fact that Tyra was protecting pointing at me, 0:01:50.201 --> 0:01:53.401 going the red light up, your MIC's on. It's like, 0:01:53.481 --> 0:01:57.521 I know, it's right, poor thing. I must stress around. 0:01:57.521 --> 0:01:58.921 So it's quite nice to be sung in. 0:01:59.201 --> 0:02:00.881 So I quite like that. 0:02:00.921 --> 0:02:02.921 It's a nice way to welcome a gaest welcome. 0:02:03.081 --> 0:02:03.761 Yeah, thank you. 0:02:05.161 --> 0:02:07.561 Now we want to talk a little bit about loneliness, 0:02:08.401 --> 0:02:12.721 and actually because the study that found fifty nine percent 0:02:13.281 --> 0:02:15.561 of kis over the age of sixty five, just on 0:02:15.601 --> 0:02:19.601 an age basis, and it felt recently lonely or socially 0:02:19.681 --> 0:02:24.761 isolated fifty nine percent of people retirement age basically, and 0:02:24.881 --> 0:02:27.801 the question about loneliness, it's been the other word that's 0:02:27.841 --> 0:02:31.561 been used to describe it, I think is it's epidemic proportions, 0:02:33.681 --> 0:02:37.121 which actually I'm not surprised about. 0:02:37.241 --> 0:02:40.641 I don't think why is that because I think. 0:02:42.041 --> 0:02:45.481 I think that I know, they just think we're living 0:02:46.081 --> 0:02:48.681 I'm not sure if we're living as social as lives 0:02:48.721 --> 0:02:51.081 as we may have done. Is it just me I'm 0:02:51.121 --> 0:02:54.601 reflecting on But I don't know, Maybe I think that maybe, 0:02:54.681 --> 0:02:55.361 oh god. 0:02:55.161 --> 0:02:57.121 I don't want to mention COVID, but I. 0:02:57.041 --> 0:02:59.681 Think but I think that was a kind of breakaway 0:02:59.721 --> 0:03:03.321 to it which we haven't quite in our social habits. 0:03:04.521 --> 0:03:06.521 Just I mean, I think in the number of times 0:03:06.521 --> 0:03:08.201 that you might have friends around for dinner and all 0:03:08.241 --> 0:03:10.561 that sort stuff. I don't know our sociability, whether that's 0:03:10.601 --> 0:03:13.321 got anything to do it, but I'm certainly not surprised 0:03:13.321 --> 0:03:15.881 that people as they get older and the expression ever 0:03:15.921 --> 0:03:21.681 decreasing circles. Yeah, But firstly, I guess, what's the difference 0:03:21.721 --> 0:03:24.561 between being alone and loneliness? 0:03:24.921 --> 0:03:25.121 Yeah? 0:03:25.201 --> 0:03:27.481 Great question, because it's important to define some of the 0:03:27.561 --> 0:03:30.521 terms that they use in this research. So the first 0:03:30.561 --> 0:03:33.121 thing to be really clear about is when we talk 0:03:33.161 --> 0:03:35.081 about and there's actually a lot of research and we 0:03:35.081 --> 0:03:37.561 can touch on some of the other sort of areas 0:03:37.561 --> 0:03:40.041 of concern and what we're sort of seeing globally. But 0:03:40.481 --> 0:03:42.241 the first thing to define is that when we talk 0:03:42.241 --> 0:03:45.441 about these studies into loneliness, we're talking about the subjective 0:03:45.601 --> 0:03:50.841 experience of feeling lonely, right, So what we're not talking 0:03:50.881 --> 0:03:54.001 about the negative impact of being alone per se, because 0:03:54.361 --> 0:03:57.201 all of us might spend some time alone day to 0:03:57.241 --> 0:03:59.161 day or week to week or maybe even you know, 0:03:59.201 --> 0:04:02.761 in terms of how we structure our lives, and the 0:04:02.881 --> 0:04:08.681 capacity to feel a sense subjectively of feeling lonely obviously 0:04:08.681 --> 0:04:10.761 differs from person to person. So that's the first thing 0:04:10.801 --> 0:04:12.641 to be clear about. When we talk about these studies, 0:04:12.641 --> 0:04:16.641 we're talking about people who would report feeling lonely, and 0:04:16.681 --> 0:04:18.281 of course we can define that a little bit further, 0:04:18.361 --> 0:04:22.441 which basically means not having enough social contact or not 0:04:22.721 --> 0:04:25.601 enough time with other people in their lives. 0:04:25.921 --> 0:04:27.481 What about people who are loners? 0:04:28.521 --> 0:04:31.561 Yeah, well, I mean again, so if your choice is 0:04:31.601 --> 0:04:35.481 to be alone and that's not subjectively distressing to you, 0:04:35.601 --> 0:04:38.641 in fact that your preferred way of living, then actually 0:04:38.721 --> 0:04:41.321 we don't tend to see the same negative effects. Now, 0:04:42.361 --> 0:04:44.641 you know, psychotherapists love blurry and we. 0:04:44.561 --> 0:04:46.721 Love the love we lovery. 0:04:46.921 --> 0:04:49.201 We love the blurry bits in between the gray bits 0:04:49.241 --> 0:04:51.881 that the nuance. So one of the things that's hard 0:04:51.921 --> 0:04:55.441 to tell sometimes is if we spend a lot of 0:04:55.441 --> 0:05:01.041 time alone, we can become habituated to not experiencing loneliness. 0:05:01.601 --> 0:05:03.361 So one of the things to be really clear about 0:05:03.401 --> 0:05:06.481 is that that isolation can become habitual to the point 0:05:06.481 --> 0:05:09.481 where actually we feel as if we don't have any option. 0:05:10.241 --> 0:05:12.881 And what's really quite hard sometimes is to get people 0:05:12.961 --> 0:05:14.841 to actually get in tune with how they feel about 0:05:14.881 --> 0:05:15.401 being alone. 0:05:16.601 --> 0:05:24.041 Okay, so is it a problem if people get habituated 0:05:24.761 --> 0:05:27.441 to being lonely because if they are used to it 0:05:27.801 --> 0:05:31.161 and they don't have a perception that there's anything wrong, 0:05:31.321 --> 0:05:32.481 is there anything wrong? 0:05:33.361 --> 0:05:35.921 Yeah, that's the loop, right, Yeah. Yeah, So it is 0:05:35.961 --> 0:05:38.441 about being able to be really honest with ourselves and 0:05:38.561 --> 0:05:41.161 and sort of you know, ask ourselves the question, am 0:05:41.241 --> 0:05:44.361 I just accepting this because I don't think anything else 0:05:44.481 --> 0:05:48.601 is possible? And furthermore, are what we're seeing things like, 0:05:48.721 --> 0:05:54.081 for instance, depression, perhaps substance abuse, drinking, you know, are 0:05:54.081 --> 0:05:56.481 we seeing other things show up that may be a 0:05:56.521 --> 0:06:00.601 way to cope with a subjective, subjective feeling of loneliness 0:06:00.641 --> 0:06:03.041 because what we note them, and that the research that 0:06:03.281 --> 0:06:05.441 we're talking about today is really clear about this is 0:06:05.481 --> 0:06:10.201 that actually the health effects of prolonged loneliness are quite 0:06:10.401 --> 0:06:13.601 severe potentially, you know, the classic studies sort of compared 0:06:13.641 --> 0:06:18.121 it to smoking in terms of its lifestyle impact and 0:06:18.241 --> 0:06:22.321 cardiovascular risk stroke risk. Because what we know is that 0:06:22.801 --> 0:06:25.841 being lonely, if we want to be with people and 0:06:25.881 --> 0:06:28.921 we can't be with people, causes stress, which leads to cortisol, 0:06:29.241 --> 0:06:32.241 which is the wholemone of stress, and prolonged cortisol exposure 0:06:32.321 --> 0:06:35.481 is really harmful for those lifestyle so called to the 0:06:35.521 --> 0:06:37.201 lifestyle factors of physical health. 0:06:37.321 --> 0:06:39.401 And I guess if you are lonely, then maybe you 0:06:39.441 --> 0:06:42.961 might not as be motivated to go out and exercise, 0:06:43.001 --> 0:06:45.761 which is a way of counteracting stress as well, and 0:06:45.801 --> 0:06:49.121 all those sorts of things and doing. And also the 0:06:49.121 --> 0:06:51.601 cause is the fact loneliness might mean that you may 0:06:51.601 --> 0:06:55.281 be substance abuse or something for or whatever. 0:06:55.201 --> 0:06:57.321 Ye as a way to feel better, which is you 0:06:57.321 --> 0:07:00.641 know why most people end up abusing substances. So you 0:07:00.721 --> 0:07:03.001 mentioned COVID, I would say that there's another sea. 0:07:02.881 --> 0:07:04.521 Where I felt a it lazy when I did that. 0:07:04.561 --> 0:07:06.921 By the way, it's still in the back of it. 0:07:06.961 --> 0:07:08.761 It's a factor. It is a factor that the other 0:07:08.801 --> 0:07:12.401 sea word, which is really important is community. So one 0:07:12.441 --> 0:07:14.241 of the factors that has led to a breakdown of 0:07:14.281 --> 0:07:16.401 community is COVID. But we know that the thanks the 0:07:16.441 --> 0:07:19.121 one have been tracking this way for quite some time. 0:07:19.441 --> 0:07:21.281 And you know, I think common sense wise, we can 0:07:21.321 --> 0:07:24.081 sort of think about this, right, the things like night 0:07:24.161 --> 0:07:27.081 classes not being as available, you know, people not having 0:07:27.081 --> 0:07:29.961 as much spare time perhaps, you know, two full time 0:07:30.001 --> 0:07:33.601 plus incomes in a household, leading to less contact socially 0:07:33.641 --> 0:07:36.441 and outside of the sort of the work life. Working 0:07:36.481 --> 0:07:39.681 from home of course convenient and pragmatic for a lot 0:07:39.721 --> 0:07:42.161 of people, but also isolates us from colleagues. And I 0:07:42.161 --> 0:07:44.081 think we can sort of keep listing those things, can't 0:07:44.121 --> 0:07:46.241 we When we think about what's actually broken down that 0:07:46.361 --> 0:07:50.321 incidental social community, you know, whether it be volunteering or 0:07:50.321 --> 0:07:52.921 attending a church or going along to a sports club 0:07:52.921 --> 0:07:55.681 and getting involved in things, those things have been eaten away, 0:07:55.761 --> 0:07:57.001 I think over the last decade. 0:07:57.041 --> 0:07:58.681 I think that's yeah, I think you've nailed it. 0:07:58.681 --> 0:08:00.721 Actually, what is what I should have said slightly more 0:08:00.721 --> 0:08:04.841 eloquently myself? Can you be lonely when you're surrounded by 0:08:05.161 --> 0:08:05.841 lots of people. 0:08:06.601 --> 0:08:09.201 Yeah, that's one of the other tricky bits of this. Right, 0:08:09.281 --> 0:08:10.961 So often I don't. 0:08:10.801 --> 0:08:13.201 Mean in a crowded street. I mean, for instance, you 0:08:13.281 --> 0:08:15.921 might be running an organization and the buck stops with 0:08:16.041 --> 0:08:17.521 you and you've got lots of people reporting to and 0:08:17.521 --> 0:08:20.681 all that sort of stuff, but essentially isolated maybe or 0:08:20.921 --> 0:08:22.521 unsupported or anyway. 0:08:23.521 --> 0:08:25.441 Yeah, so that's again when we get into the nuance 0:08:25.481 --> 0:08:27.561 of it, right, I think you can actually potentially be 0:08:27.641 --> 0:08:31.401 in an unhappy family environment and feel lonely. So feeling 0:08:31.441 --> 0:08:34.361 lonely does not necessarily mean being alone either. That's the 0:08:34.401 --> 0:08:37.721 other take on this. A better way in some ways 0:08:37.721 --> 0:08:40.641 of defining what we're talking about is do you feel 0:08:40.641 --> 0:08:42.521 connected to other human beings? 0:08:42.761 --> 0:08:42.961 Right? 0:08:43.401 --> 0:08:46.881 And connection can be small amounts, so it can be 0:08:46.921 --> 0:08:49.441 as simple as, you know, a yarn with someone at 0:08:49.441 --> 0:08:51.721 the supermarket or while we're filling the car up with gas, 0:08:52.681 --> 0:08:55.201 or it can be more meaningful connections in our life. 0:08:55.241 --> 0:08:57.441 And so again, when we think about that breakdown of 0:08:57.441 --> 0:08:59.601 community that I think, you know, we've seen in the 0:08:59.641 --> 0:09:02.681 western world at least over the last decade, being able 0:09:02.761 --> 0:09:04.961 to shop from home, being able to have things delivered, 0:09:05.041 --> 0:09:06.681 you know, so much of our life now can be 0:09:06.721 --> 0:09:08.921 delivered to our doorstep. That once we get into that 0:09:09.001 --> 0:09:13.081 pattern of avoidance of not going out and interacting socially 0:09:13.121 --> 0:09:16.201 and with our community, then loneliness can grow as a 0:09:16.201 --> 0:09:17.681 byproduct of those choices. 0:09:17.961 --> 0:09:21.401 We would love to hear from you eight hundred and 0:09:21.441 --> 0:09:26.041 eighty whether you are lonely or you've actually overcome it, 0:09:26.121 --> 0:09:28.881 or what what did you notice? What did you notice 0:09:28.921 --> 0:09:30.841 or what triggered you to actually do something about it, 0:09:30.841 --> 0:09:33.441 because as Kyle has mentioned, it's something you can become. 0:09:33.521 --> 0:09:35.481 I think that the word was habituated too. You get 0:09:35.561 --> 0:09:38.921 used to your isolated isolation, then you suddenly think, well, 0:09:38.961 --> 0:09:41.441 you know, you know, you get used to your routine 0:09:41.521 --> 0:09:44.081 and your pattern and your pattern in your daily life 0:09:44.161 --> 0:09:47.721 and looking after yourself. And have you have you broken 0:09:47.761 --> 0:09:50.841 that habit or broken that isolation? And how did you 0:09:50.881 --> 0:09:55.721 do it? But also how do we keep rebuilding? Because 0:09:55.761 --> 0:10:00.481 I think we are gradually establishing our sense of community. 0:10:00.601 --> 0:10:03.361 But I do think that that's that it's something that 0:10:03.401 --> 0:10:06.601 we have suffered from ever since COVID, the breakdown of community. 0:10:06.761 --> 0:10:08.641 Maybe you're not belonging to clubs that you might have 0:10:08.681 --> 0:10:12.721 belonged to or organizations and things like that. I'd love 0:10:12.721 --> 0:10:14.761 to hear from you if you've got any questions you 0:10:14.801 --> 0:10:17.281 want to talk to Kyle about or you want to 0:10:17.321 --> 0:10:19.761 ask Kyle, then we'd love to hear from you as well. 0:10:20.361 --> 0:10:24.641 Eight hundred and eighty ten eighty text nine to nine 0:10:24.761 --> 0:10:26.601 two which I think we might go to the break 0:10:26.601 --> 0:10:28.281 now'll be back in just to take give us a call. 0:10:30.201 --> 0:10:34.401 Highs Fob. 0:10:35.561 --> 0:10:43.721 Hello, Well, what the hell is this? This is apparently 0:10:43.801 --> 0:10:45.681 it's a song about loneliness? What acorn? 0:10:45.681 --> 0:10:49.281 What is it? Econ? I never heard of it. 0:10:49.321 --> 0:10:51.721 We could give you some helium you can sing along with. 0:10:51.201 --> 0:10:59.601 It here doing a show if we did a show 0:10:59.641 --> 0:11:01.361 with just a bunch of helium balloons. 0:11:03.601 --> 0:11:06.521 Anyway, Hello, if you joined us, I hope you're not 0:11:06.521 --> 0:11:08.761 feeling so lonely this hour because we keep You're keeping 0:11:08.841 --> 0:11:10.881 us company, We're keeping you company. But this is the 0:11:10.921 --> 0:11:13.481 health of Umpton Beverage. Car McDonald's my guest. We're talking 0:11:13.481 --> 0:11:15.881 about dealing with loneliness, and just before I go to 0:11:15.921 --> 0:11:18.681 my first caller, I think that one of the questions 0:11:18.681 --> 0:11:21.801 will be worth exploring is how do you avoid loneliness 0:11:22.201 --> 0:11:26.041 as you get older? Because fifty nine percent of kiwis 0:11:26.081 --> 0:11:29.041 over the age of sixty five feeling lonely or social number. 0:11:29.401 --> 0:11:32.041 That's I mean, that's two out of three almost. Yeah, okay, 0:11:32.201 --> 0:11:35.721 six out of ten, four out of three out of five. 0:11:35.801 --> 0:11:36.281 There we go. 0:11:36.721 --> 0:11:38.481 That's about as far as I can reduce that good 0:11:38.841 --> 0:11:39.681 three fifths. 0:11:39.761 --> 0:11:40.361 There we go. 0:11:41.041 --> 0:11:46.801 Right, let's take some calls, Yannie, Hello, Hello to you both. 0:11:47.921 --> 0:11:49.481 Great song, great song? 0:11:50.041 --> 0:11:53.281 Which one the Elvis one or that last song? 0:11:53.521 --> 0:11:56.201 The last one just now, the Helium one. It's an 0:11:56.281 --> 0:11:58.921 awesome song. Should hear the whole thing. It's so great. 0:11:59.121 --> 0:12:03.961 It's not all just like that. But anyway, Yeah, I'm 0:12:04.001 --> 0:12:08.561 sixty seven, and I see it in a little bit 0:12:08.601 --> 0:12:12.441 of a different way because I am a survivor of 0:12:12.521 --> 0:12:18.361 Lake Ellis and abuse and kids. So I've chosen to 0:12:18.441 --> 0:12:26.081 be alone, live alone because I don't trust people at all. 0:12:26.801 --> 0:12:31.241 And so I, yeah, I live alone. I choose my 0:12:31.441 --> 0:12:34.881 times when I see people and I don't. I don't 0:12:35.001 --> 0:12:39.481 go to cafes, I don't go to nightclubs because I 0:12:39.561 --> 0:12:41.801 just can't cope with all the noise and the people 0:12:41.801 --> 0:12:44.921 around me. But I have to say that I am 0:12:45.041 --> 0:12:49.641 not lonely as such. I quite. I have a great 0:12:49.681 --> 0:12:53.681 relationship with myself and I do talk to myself a lot. 0:12:53.761 --> 0:12:55.481 But I know that a lot of other people do 0:12:55.521 --> 0:12:57.001 that anyway, that sometimes. 0:12:56.761 --> 0:12:58.601 The only way to guarantee intelligent conversation. 0:12:58.721 --> 0:13:01.681 I find, well, that's right, and I sort of just 0:13:01.761 --> 0:13:04.561 you know, ask myself things and the and then I answer, 0:13:04.601 --> 0:13:07.521 you know, I do a lot of things, like I 0:13:07.761 --> 0:13:10.481 walk an hour and a half every morning. 0:13:10.841 --> 0:13:14.401 You know, where does your social connection come from? Do 0:13:14.441 --> 0:13:16.321 you bump into people? Do you just not need it? 0:13:17.881 --> 0:13:21.441 I just don't need it, I do, though, I go. 0:13:22.041 --> 0:13:25.841 I've just started, actually, which is very weird, started going 0:13:25.841 --> 0:13:28.081 to a friend's house for dinner every now and again. 0:13:28.721 --> 0:13:30.681 And it's something I haven't done for years. And we 0:13:31.201 --> 0:13:35.041 play cards. Oh my god, and and and it's fun. 0:13:35.081 --> 0:13:37.321 And I come home and I think, oh my god, 0:13:37.441 --> 0:13:38.401 I really enjoyed that. 0:13:38.961 --> 0:13:39.201 Good. 0:13:40.161 --> 0:13:42.161 I wouldn't want to do it all the time. 0:13:42.361 --> 0:13:43.241 I just. 0:13:44.921 --> 0:13:47.161 What you're doing a wonderful job of illustrating. And thanks 0:13:47.201 --> 0:13:49.201 so much for calling in and letting us know how 0:13:49.241 --> 0:13:52.041 it works for you, because I think what what you're 0:13:52.041 --> 0:13:54.201 outlining really clearly is actually, when we look at what 0:13:54.241 --> 0:13:57.521 this looks like at an individual level, it's about listening 0:13:57.521 --> 0:14:00.521 to ourselves and being honest for ourselves and recognizing that 0:14:00.681 --> 0:14:04.841 loneliness is a feeling points out when our life is 0:14:05.201 --> 0:14:08.201 of balance, and particularly I think when it comes to 0:14:08.841 --> 0:14:11.761 as we move through life, that need might change. I mean, 0:14:11.841 --> 0:14:14.201 you know, most of us know that, for instance, teenagers 0:14:14.201 --> 0:14:18.601 and young people are generally to you thrash a stereotype 0:14:18.641 --> 0:14:22.041 generally more social, right, and that's partly a life and 0:14:22.081 --> 0:14:25.081 stage thing. But what we also know is that actually 0:14:25.321 --> 0:14:27.401 that need to be social to have a wide group 0:14:27.401 --> 0:14:30.121 of friends changes for all of us over life and 0:14:30.521 --> 0:14:33.441 is different for each individual. So listening to yourself and 0:14:33.441 --> 0:14:35.401 connecting with a friend and starting to be just that 0:14:35.481 --> 0:14:37.361 little bit more connected to people. 0:14:37.121 --> 0:14:38.081 Sounds like a great plan. 0:14:38.201 --> 0:14:39.641 Thanks very much, thanks to you call. 0:14:39.641 --> 0:14:40.921 You and niece really appreciate it. 0:14:41.561 --> 0:14:43.841 Jan, Hello, Hi there. 0:14:45.001 --> 0:14:49.681 I have three points. First one, some people are introverted 0:14:49.881 --> 0:14:53.761 and love their own company, don't like being in crowds 0:14:53.881 --> 0:14:57.641 or a socializing, so they're very happy on their own 0:14:58.281 --> 0:15:04.601 prefer it. And the extraverted people absolutely have to socialize 0:15:05.081 --> 0:15:11.361 the ways they feel unhappy and disconnected, et cetera. The 0:15:11.481 --> 0:15:16.401 second point, more people should be able to have pets 0:15:17.161 --> 0:15:21.881 which keep them company, and places like race homes and 0:15:22.841 --> 0:15:28.001 villages and elderly people on their own it should be facilitated. 0:15:28.481 --> 0:15:32.001 Instead of all those dogs in Auckland, eleven thousand of 0:15:32.041 --> 0:15:35.681 them being killed by the council, they should have all 0:15:35.721 --> 0:15:38.761 been rehomed to good family. 0:15:38.921 --> 0:15:41.441 I agree with you about pets. They're incredibly important when 0:15:41.481 --> 0:15:43.201 it comes to feeling a sense of connection. 0:15:43.361 --> 0:15:44.121 What's your third one? 0:15:44.201 --> 0:15:48.001 Jan the third one? Since I've been here in long 0:15:48.081 --> 0:15:52.481 than new some communities around here's sound probably even in 0:15:52.561 --> 0:15:56.401 the world. If you weren't born here and grew up here, 0:15:56.961 --> 0:16:00.841 you're not accepted. That's it. You could be here for 0:16:00.961 --> 0:16:05.241 ten years and you still won't be accepted. Yes, the 0:16:05.281 --> 0:16:09.681 first thing they ask you were you born here? And 0:16:09.881 --> 0:16:13.561 if you're not, that's it. You can't shut out from 0:16:14.241 --> 0:16:19.601 any sort of social connection, say snub you and very snobby. 0:16:20.281 --> 0:16:24.401 And that's how I found it. And a lot of 0:16:24.521 --> 0:16:25.761 people well. 0:16:25.601 --> 0:16:29.281 Actually yeah, I mean I think, yeah, I think I 0:16:29.281 --> 0:16:31.241 think there would be people who feel that if they've 0:16:31.241 --> 0:16:33.481 come from a different country that it might take it 0:16:33.561 --> 0:16:35.601 might actually sometimes be a bit of a struggle. 0:16:35.801 --> 0:16:37.601 Oh, it's hard to re establishing a network when you 0:16:37.721 --> 0:16:40.921 when you're from when you immigrate into a different country. 0:16:40.921 --> 0:16:43.121 But I think you know, particularly when we come we 0:16:43.161 --> 0:16:45.681 come back to the research around the fact that this 0:16:45.801 --> 0:16:48.001 is being recognized as a problem for those as they 0:16:48.041 --> 0:16:50.961 move into the later part of life. I think one 0:16:51.001 --> 0:16:54.641 of the really important things is to make sure that 0:16:54.761 --> 0:16:57.721 you maintain the capacity to be what I call a joiner. 0:16:58.561 --> 0:17:00.961 Make sure you're someone who's a joiner. And what I 0:17:01.041 --> 0:17:03.081 mean by that is that you're willing to join things, 0:17:03.361 --> 0:17:06.201 and that includes being able to try new things. So 0:17:06.281 --> 0:17:09.481 I think I say that because if you have the 0:17:09.561 --> 0:17:12.041 unfortunate experience of feeling like you're not welcome in a 0:17:12.081 --> 0:17:15.401 particular group or community or activity, don't give up. Keep 0:17:15.401 --> 0:17:18.121 trying because I think I'm sure that that happens. I'm 0:17:18.121 --> 0:17:19.641 sure that that you know that to the nature of 0:17:19.681 --> 0:17:21.841 social groups and people is that they sometimes can be 0:17:21.881 --> 0:17:25.881 a bit rough, not very welcoming. But keep trying. I 0:17:25.921 --> 0:17:26.921 think it's really important. 0:17:27.001 --> 0:17:27.921 Actually, is. 0:17:30.121 --> 0:17:32.641 It harder to form friendships as you get older? 0:17:32.681 --> 0:17:33.361 Do you think as well? 0:17:33.401 --> 0:17:36.681 Because people relationships come and go and friendships sometimes fall 0:17:36.721 --> 0:17:39.801 apart and things like that. In terms of do you 0:17:39.841 --> 0:17:43.721 think we are are we good at forming friends as 0:17:43.721 --> 0:17:44.761 we get older as well? 0:17:44.881 --> 0:17:46.081 Or because there's one. 0:17:45.921 --> 0:17:48.441 Thing to have acquaintances and people you know, Yeah, I mean, 0:17:48.481 --> 0:17:51.081 I know, truckloads of people. But in terms of the 0:17:51.161 --> 0:17:53.401 number of people I'd count as close friends, I mean, 0:17:53.401 --> 0:17:55.001 that would be a reasonably small number. 0:17:55.001 --> 0:17:56.881 But maybe that's is that everyone. 0:17:57.001 --> 0:17:58.561 I think it's pretty normal. I mean, I think when 0:17:58.561 --> 0:18:00.681 we look at one of the weird things about social 0:18:00.721 --> 0:18:02.841 media is this idea that we have hundreds or even 0:18:02.881 --> 0:18:06.441 thousands of friends. It's kind of ridiculous, right, what the 0:18:06.441 --> 0:18:09.081 brain research tells us. Actually, interestingly enough, we're not really 0:18:09.081 --> 0:18:12.601 capable of having meaningful connections with much more than a 0:18:12.681 --> 0:18:15.321 handful of people. And then even wider friends, that upper 0:18:15.401 --> 0:18:18.241 number seems to be somewhere around one hundred something, So 0:18:18.561 --> 0:18:20.641 you know, when we think about sizes of community, that 0:18:20.721 --> 0:18:22.921 makes sense. But just coming back to what you're saying 0:18:23.401 --> 0:18:26.681 there is the developmental research tends to suggest that we 0:18:27.001 --> 0:18:30.521 tend to get less flexible generally mentally flexible, I mean 0:18:31.521 --> 0:18:35.241 as we age, and so that ability to keep working 0:18:35.281 --> 0:18:39.841 at being open, engaging with new ideas, learning new skills, 0:18:40.121 --> 0:18:44.321 musical instruments, going to singing lessons, anything that can teach 0:18:44.361 --> 0:18:46.921 us a new skill later in life is incredibly important 0:18:46.921 --> 0:18:50.241 for that mental flexibility, and that includes making new connections 0:18:50.241 --> 0:18:50.681 with people. 0:18:50.921 --> 0:18:55.921 Is that because we just aren't exercising those muscles, because 0:18:55.921 --> 0:18:59.121 when you're growing up and learning, and you are exercising 0:18:59.161 --> 0:19:04.561 those muscles all the time, because that's part of being 0:19:04.601 --> 0:19:07.921 young and growing up and learning, excuse me, learning new things. 0:19:08.441 --> 0:19:12.561 Whereas there's I might argue, in a very simplistic method manner, 0:19:13.321 --> 0:19:16.641 that maybe there's a level of complacency that you get 0:19:16.721 --> 0:19:18.641 settled with what your life is. This is what I 0:19:18.721 --> 0:19:20.921 do for a job, these are my hobbies, and these 0:19:20.961 --> 0:19:24.881 are my friends, and so you actually don't practice those muscles. 0:19:26.521 --> 0:19:29.441 It's like, I quote this all the time. It's quite 0:19:29.441 --> 0:19:32.121 from Pride and prejudice, where mister Darcy says to miss 0:19:32.161 --> 0:19:35.721 Bennety says, I don't converse well with others, and she says, well, 0:19:35.761 --> 0:19:37.561 I don't play the piano very well. But I take 0:19:37.561 --> 0:19:40.801 that to be my own fault, given that I don't practice. Absolutely, 0:19:41.561 --> 0:19:44.521 there is something in that, isn't there That age is 0:19:44.601 --> 0:19:48.521 not necessarily sarily the reason. It's what comes along with 0:19:48.641 --> 0:19:50.761 age in the way you approach things. 0:19:52.401 --> 0:19:55.041 Yes, although I think that what's also true is that 0:19:55.041 --> 0:19:58.641 that makes it sound negative, which so let's talk about 0:19:58.641 --> 0:20:00.481 the positive flip side of that, which is that what 0:20:00.601 --> 0:20:02.881 tends to happen as we age, as we rely more 0:20:02.921 --> 0:20:06.521 on experience as a shortcut to know how to be 0:20:06.641 --> 0:20:10.761 in different situations. So that accumulation of experience often makes 0:20:10.841 --> 0:20:13.241 us really really good at doing the things we've done before, 0:20:14.561 --> 0:20:17.641 and it's hard to do things that are new. But 0:20:17.721 --> 0:20:20.881 the personality researchers talk about, this variable called openness to 0:20:20.961 --> 0:20:24.001 experience is something you can measure. You can measure it 0:20:24.001 --> 0:20:26.241 across life, and it's one of the things that tends 0:20:26.281 --> 0:20:29.761 to predict. We can predict that most people's openness to 0:20:29.841 --> 0:20:33.601 experience goes down over life, starting from whatever setpoint you 0:20:33.641 --> 0:20:35.841 start at when you're younger, of course, so you know, 0:20:35.961 --> 0:20:38.201 very flexible people will tend to just be a little 0:20:38.241 --> 0:20:40.241