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Speaker 1: Kyoder, this has been just popping in at the top

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Speaker 1: to let you know that next week our episode will

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Speaker 1: be a day late. It'll come out on Friday instead

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Speaker 1: of Thursday. So if you get to Thursday and your

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Speaker 1: episode is not in the feed where you expect it,

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Speaker 1: don't panic. Just wait twenty four more hours and you'll

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Speaker 1: find it there. Onto the episode. The all important US market.

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Speaker 1: It's where every key we startup founder dreams of making

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Speaker 1: it big, because everything's bigger in America.

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Speaker 2: Which is exactly why our featured guest on the podcast

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Speaker 2: this week is squarely focused on the US market and

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Speaker 2: advisors and other founders to also set their sights on

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Speaker 2: the US from day one.

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Speaker 3: Scales. The problem, kiwis we do a lot of things

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Speaker 3: amazingly well, but we don't understand scale. There's maybe seven

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Speaker 3: hundred thousand businesses in New Zealand and ninety something percent

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Speaker 3: of them are micro businesses. In the US mark of

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Speaker 3: we're focused in there is twenty five million smeak businesses,

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Speaker 3: is a five p five million EMI businesses, half a

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Speaker 3: million new businesses every year that scale.

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Speaker 1: Welcome to the Business of Tech powered by two Degrees Business.

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Speaker 2: I'm Ben Moore and I'm Peter Griffin. You just heard

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Speaker 2: there from Nick Lassett, the founder and CEO of Black

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Speaker 2: Pearl Group, an INZX listed tech company with operations in

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Speaker 2: Wellington and Tempe, Arizona.

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Speaker 1: Black Pearl just reported a revenue increase of one hundred

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Speaker 1: and eighty three percent to four point one million dollars

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Speaker 1: for the year to March, with the vast majority of

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Speaker 1: that growth in the US market.

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Speaker 2: We'll hear Nick talking about the ups and downs office

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Speaker 2: efforts to crack the US market shortly.

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Speaker 1: But first, Peter, you've been given a briefing on the

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Speaker 1: new surface devices from Microsoft, which are the first wave

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Speaker 1: of so called Copilot plus PCs. What does that mean.

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Speaker 2: There are plenty of surface devices that every sort of

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Speaker 2: year micro Soft releasesm Typically I wouldn't pay too much

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Speaker 2: attention to that because it's all very iterative, but there's

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Speaker 2: certainly something different going on with this debut of Microsoft

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Speaker 2: surface devices, the laptops and the more sort of tablets

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Speaker 2: that you can sort of turn into a laptop with

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Speaker 2: the attached keyboard, and the big difference this year is

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Speaker 2: building in a so called neural processing unit into the

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Speaker 2: ARM based chip architecture in those devices. So they've done

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Speaker 2: a deal with Qualcom to use this ARM architecture, which

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Speaker 2: is really a bit of a slap in the face

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Speaker 2: for Intel and AMD, the big sort of traditional giants

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Speaker 2: in the chip world. ARM, the originally British company, has

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Speaker 2: done a great job of architecting chips, particularly for lightweight

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Speaker 2: portable devices like smartphones and laptops. And what they've done

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Speaker 2: now is integrate copilot features that Microsoft has developed in

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Speaker 2: conjunction with open AI, actually building that into the device itself,

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Speaker 2: so all the AI workloads are done on the device

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Speaker 2: rather than constantly going to the cloud. So I saw

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Speaker 2: that in Sydney last week. I first look at some

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Speaker 2: of the features, including the controversial recall feature, which got

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Speaker 2: a lot of criticism. Security researchers how to look at

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Speaker 2: that and found failings in that. Microsoft actually the day

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Speaker 2: I was in Sydney put out a release tightening up

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Speaker 2: how they're dealing with recall to answer some of those

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Speaker 2: security concerns. So you'll hear more about that in the

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Speaker 2: interview with Tim Meerzak that I did. But this is

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Speaker 2: really the start of the AI PC revolution and we're

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Speaker 2: going to see Dell and HP and everyone else incorporating

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Speaker 2: this copilot stuff into their hardware as well, and I

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Speaker 2: guess yeah, there are lots of benefits to that, such

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Speaker 2: as the security aspect of having everything on the device

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Speaker 2: rather than it constantly going to the cloud.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, it's the new wave of hardware, isn't it, having

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Speaker 1: just the next level of processing unit on the on

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Speaker 1: the on the hardware itself. I think what we need

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Speaker 1: to think about is actually what is the what is

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Speaker 1: the result of this? So it sounds like the marketing

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Speaker 1: hype of We're putting AI in your computer, and it's like,

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Speaker 1: actually doesn't mean anything. What we need to understand is

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Speaker 1: what is that actually, what are the results of that?

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Speaker 1: What are the uses that people are going to get

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Speaker 1: from that? And your interviewee, Tim Mirzak, he speaks a

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Speaker 1: little bit to that in the interview. You've got to

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Speaker 1: try and kind of listen between his marketing hype a

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Speaker 1: little bit as you listen to this interview. But there

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Speaker 1: is some interesting gems in there as well.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, there's the things that Microsoft is doing and the

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Speaker 2: start of it as things like recall and live translation

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Speaker 2: and you know, some of that stuff we've seen elsewhere.

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Speaker 2: But the bit which is is going to be most significant,

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Speaker 2: I think to users is all of these third party

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Speaker 2: app developers. And this is similar to the conversation we

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Speaker 2: had about Apple Intelligence last week where they are also

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Speaker 2: putting AI into their devices, so it's all done natively.

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Speaker 2: And they talked in Sydney about Adobe putting this into

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Speaker 2: light Room and all of their products. So the speed

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Speaker 2: that you can render things, how you can apply the

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Speaker 2: AI tools that Adobe is rolling out on the device

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Speaker 2: disconnected from the cloud, that's pretty cool. So once we

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Speaker 2: start to see these companies and Microsoft is compatible now

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Speaker 2: I think with three hundred software makers they're developing for

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Speaker 2: this new chipset. Once we start seeing those roll out,

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Speaker 2: I think that's when people will go wow. You know,

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Speaker 2: so this little app I use for my work on

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Speaker 2: the Windows platform is now suddenly infused with with AI

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Speaker 2: without me having to rely on going to the cloud.

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Speaker 2: That's when I think we'll be interesting.

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Speaker 1: Absolutely. Well, let's have a listen to your interview with

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Speaker 1: Tim Meerzak.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, this is Tim. He heads up the Surface business

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Speaker 2: across Australia and New Zealand. Tim, thanks so much for

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Speaker 2: being on the business of tech. Now you head up

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Speaker 2: the surface business for Microsoft in Australia and New Zealand.

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Speaker 2: Lots of surface laptops and surface pro devices are used

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Speaker 2: in New Zealand and I've just seen the latest iteration

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Speaker 2: off those and huge performance improvements in some cases up

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Speaker 2: to ninety percent based on the previous iteration, which is

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Speaker 2: pretty incredible and interesting your views on what was done

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Speaker 2: to achieve that. But these are the first line of

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Speaker 2: co pilot plus PCs, so called AI PCs, with a

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Speaker 2: new processor in the PC that is dedicated to those

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Speaker 2: AI processes. Explained to us the difference between that world

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Speaker 2: in the cloud and taking that onto the PC and

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Speaker 2: what that actually means.

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Speaker 3: YEA, certainly, Peter.

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Speaker 4: All the current stuff that we've been doing from an

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Speaker 4: AI workload has all been in the cloud and we've

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Speaker 4: integrated it in with our applications to make people more

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Speaker 4: productive than ever. The difference between copilot plus PC is

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Speaker 4: you can do all of that stuff, but then there's

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Speaker 4: so much more. And by that is we're taking amazing

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Speaker 4: AI experiences that run natively on the device itself, and

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Speaker 4: that is the biggest difference that we have here. We've

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Speaker 4: already started to talk about some of those experiences in

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Speaker 4: Recall Live captioning co Create, for example, which are amazing

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Speaker 4: experiences that are exclusive to Copilot plus PCs. In order

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Speaker 4: to be classed as copilot plus PCs, you need three

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Speaker 4: key things. The first one is RAM sixteen gigs. You

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Speaker 4: need a two five six gig SSD hard drive. And

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Speaker 4: then one of the real key components is a neural

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Speaker 4: processing unit or as we call it NPU. And what

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Speaker 4: an MPU is designed to do is to do all

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Speaker 4: of that ALI grub work and do it very efficiently.

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Speaker 4: And on these devices, the parameters to be classed as

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Speaker 4: a copilot PC is more than forty trillion operations per

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Speaker 4: second and that's what we're going to be launching in

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Speaker 4: New Zealand on the sixth of August. The way I

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Speaker 4: like to look at it is think of just a processor.

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Speaker 4: You've just got one big chip and on that you

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Speaker 4: have the CPU, the GPU, and now this NPU on

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Speaker 4: there right. So the CPU and the GPUs not anything new,

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Speaker 4: and they can do a lot of these AI tasks,

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Speaker 4: but they can't do it as efficiently. So with the NPU,

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Speaker 4: this is a leapfrog in terms of the amount of

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Speaker 4: processing power that the NPU can do, which takes off

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Speaker 4: the burden on the CPU and GPU. So this is

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Speaker 4: why not only are you able to to have these

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Speaker 4: incredible AI experiences that you've never been able to have before,

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Speaker 4: but you're starting to see benefits in places like battery life.

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Speaker 4: For example. I don't mean an extra hour. I'm talking

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Speaker 4: about doubling the battery life. And that's just something that

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Speaker 4: you don't see through different generations of a particular.

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Speaker 2: Product, some when those users have already been introduced to

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Speaker 2: some aspects of AI. What we saw today was about

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Speaker 2: three features that really draw on that neural processing unit

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Speaker 2: and AI functionality. Quickly take us through some of as.

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Speaker 2: Let's start with recall, which is one that's had most attention.

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Speaker 2: What is recall?

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Speaker 4: Think of it as a giving everyone a photographic memory.

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Speaker 3: I have a bad memory.

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Speaker 4: I'll say it.

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Speaker 1: I won't beat around the walls.

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Speaker 4: I have a bad memory, but I can remember certain

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Speaker 4: aspects of things that I've seen. So think if I

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Speaker 4: had seen if got an email or a WhatsApp message

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Speaker 4: on my device and it had a red flower in there,

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Speaker 4: and that's all I remember. I don't know where it

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Speaker 4: came from, but I remember the red flower. I can

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Speaker 4: simply type that in and ll pull up that image

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Speaker 4: and whatever was surrounding that image, So it gives everyone

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Speaker 4: a photographic memory. Why that's really important is a lot

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Speaker 4: of people spend a lot of time trying to find things.

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Speaker 4: Imagine if you can just put in a natural language,

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Speaker 4: just as I did there talking about a red flower,

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Speaker 4: and then straightaway it comes in and it gives you

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Speaker 4: exactly what you're looking for. And to me, that's what

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Speaker 4: recall is all about.

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Speaker 2: And what it's doing. It's I think every five or

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Speaker 2: ten seconds, it's taking a snapshot of what's on your screen.

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Speaker 2: Doesn't matter what browser you're in. Everything that's on your

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Speaker 2: screen there has been captured every five to ten seconds.

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Speaker 2: But you have the ability to set the parameters what

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Speaker 2: is recorded and if it's recorded at all. I mean,

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Speaker 2: this is now a opten system, right, it's not switched

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Speaker 2: on by default.

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Speaker 4: Think of it as, yes, taking a picture every five seconds,

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Speaker 4: but it does a little bit more than that. It

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Speaker 4: takes the picture, takes the visual components, puts that into

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Speaker 4: text so that it is searchable. So think of it

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Speaker 4: as creating an index of your photos that's also fully

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Speaker 4: encrypted so it's safe, and it is also kept on

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Speaker 4: the device, so that's one thing. Now you mentioned opt in,

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Speaker 4: we have made an announcement. It is hot off the

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Speaker 4: press today. So we have made an update to the

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Speaker 4: recall feature where it will now be part of our

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Speaker 4: Windows Insider program.

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Speaker 2: What is that?

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Speaker 4: So Windows Insider program are a group of people that

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Speaker 4: want to trial and test and give feedback on the

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Speaker 4: latest and greatest Microsoft developments within the operating system. You

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Speaker 4: can simply log into Microsoft dot com and you can

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Speaker 4: joining the inside up program should you wish, There is

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Speaker 4: an option to do that. And the reason why it's

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Speaker 4: really important to go into that environment is because we

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Speaker 4: want more feedback. We're hearing what customers are saying and

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Speaker 4: we're wanting to act and make sure that they've got

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Speaker 4: the very best experience. But more importantly that they're at

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Speaker 4: the center and we're talking to their concerns they may

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Speaker 4: have around recall.

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Speaker 2: Everyone can see the utility off this recall, the convenience

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Speaker 2: that it brings to your computing environment, but will be

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Speaker 2: a honeypop for hackers and that as well, so security

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Speaker 2: has to be central to that. There's been some criticism

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Speaker 2: which led to this decision. I think to do Windows

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Speaker 2: Insiders so that you can make sure this is water

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Speaker 2: tight before everyone gets their hands on it. It's also

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Speaker 2: Windows Hello, which is the main security interface for your devices.

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Speaker 2: It has to go through that as well, which is

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Speaker 2: pretty robust.

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Speaker 4: There's a few secure elements that we are making sort

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Speaker 4: of mandatory on Copilot plus pieces, which I think is

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Speaker 4: probably important to mention. Firstly, we have secure boot, which

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Speaker 4: is often just afforded to scenarios where there's a high

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Speaker 4: amount of customer sensitive data, so think finance institutions, think

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Speaker 4: medical practices, etc. So that is on by default on

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Speaker 4: Copilot plus PCs. We then have the biometrics piece that

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Speaker 4: you talked about, and that is a requirement for recall

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Speaker 4: because we don't want to just give access to people

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Speaker 4: that say they are who they are. We need to

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Speaker 4: be one hundred percent sure. And then the last piece

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Speaker 4: is around the Pluton process, where we're working very very

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Speaker 4: closely with our silicon providers to make sure that we

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Speaker 4: have an additional layer. And all of this sort of

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Speaker 4: stuff is usually afforded to highly sensitive data devices and

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Speaker 4: we've brought that into our consumer space with Copilot plus PC.

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Speaker 4: The one last thing I'll mention on recall is all

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Speaker 4: of that work, all of that functionality is on the device,

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Speaker 4: and this is really important. Recall is always on the device.

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Speaker 4: The user is at the center. They decide what they

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Speaker 4: want Recall to take images of. They can go back

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Speaker 4: in time and say I don't want that image recorded.

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Speaker 4: I don't want that record and so on and so forth.

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Speaker 4: You can pause it, you can stop it because at

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Speaker 4: the end of the day, Microsoft's built on trust and

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Speaker 4: we want our consumers to trust us as well.

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Speaker 2: A couple of other features, what's this co create? How

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Speaker 2: is that drawing on AI? And what does it do?

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Speaker 4: I get asked all the time the question around will

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Speaker 4: why buy a surface? And I actually use co create

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Speaker 4: as my example. I can draw a stick person and

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Speaker 4: that's about it. But co create turns me into an artist.

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Speaker 4: And by that I mean I can put in a

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Speaker 4: little prompt, say a castle on a hill with a tree,

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Speaker 4: and then I can just start drawing with my slim

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Speaker 4: pen and then I can decide, well, how realistic do

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Speaker 4: I want it to look or do I want it

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Speaker 4: to look closer to how I'm inputting it. You can

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Speaker 4: have that experience on co pilot through the cloud. But

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Speaker 4: the real key difference here is the speed you get

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Speaker 4: near zero latency when you do that, because nothing goes

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Speaker 4: off your device has to be processed in the cloud

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Speaker 4: and then comes back to the device. It is all

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Speaker 4: managed on the device itself and it is unlocked by

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Speaker 4: that NPU that on the new Qualcom chips can deliver

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Speaker 4: forty five trillion operations per second.

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Speaker 2: We also saw live translation. You know, we've seen a

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Speaker 2: lot of this and various guys is typically it's usually

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Speaker 2: in the cloud, so you might go to Microsoft Translator

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Speaker 2: or a Google translator, whatever and does a reasonable Job's

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Speaker 2: got for good these services, but that there's a bit

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Speaker 2: of lag there. While it goes to the cloud, it

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Speaker 2: thinks about it and it sends it back. What we

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Speaker 2: saw today is live translation Spanish to English and back,

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Speaker 2: all on the device. None of that dialogue goes anywhere else,

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Speaker 2: stays encrypted on the device.

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Speaker 4: It comes down to latency, which creates a better experience,

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Speaker 4: so you're not waiting to catch up with what someone's saying.

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Speaker 4: So I only unfortunately speak one language, and when when

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Speaker 4: we saw today a colleague of my speaking Spanish and

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Speaker 4: then another colleague speaking French, it was just incredible that

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Speaker 4: they could just speak in a conversational tone at pace

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Speaker 4: and immediately I saw it translated in English, so I

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Speaker 4: wasn't missing part of the conversation, and I feel that

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Speaker 4: that's really inclusive.

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Speaker 2: It is a real fundamental shift, isn't it. We've heard

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Speaker 2: so much in the last couple of years about large

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Speaker 2: language models chat GPT made by open Ai, which is

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Speaker 2: a big partner of Microsoft, and this whole narrative around

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Speaker 2: the capacity required to train those large language models and

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Speaker 2: service all of those people typing queries and prompts into

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Speaker 2: chat GPT and stable diffusion and all the others. It's

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Speaker 2: a big load. But fundamentally, once there are hundreds of

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Speaker 2: millions of these types of devices out there, a lot

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Speaker 2: of that load is going to be done on the

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Speaker 2: device because all your software partners will create their software

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Speaker 2: to work with that NPU on a copilot plus PC.

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Speaker 2: So that's going to be a massive shift, isn't it.

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Speaker 2: At the moment, it's very cloud centric. This is taking

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Speaker 2: it ultimately right into the heart of the consumer's device,

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Speaker 2: doing it there instead of doing it into cloud.

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Speaker 4: And that's great. We've talked a little bit about latency today,

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Speaker 4: but it's also very resource hungry. It's not as efficient

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Speaker 4: as being able to do it on the device itself,

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Speaker 4: so when you bring it over there, there's also a

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Speaker 4: sustainability angle here, so it's not just an amazing customer

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Speaker 4: experience and a unique experience, but it's also better for

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Speaker 4: the environment. So yes, you're one hundred percent right. We've

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Speaker 4: been on a journey here. We started with open AI

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Speaker 4: and chat GPT, and then we started bringing through co

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Speaker 4: Pilot all of that AI stuff into our applications, and

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Speaker 4: then this is the next iteration.

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Speaker 2: It's not as say you're paying a massive price premium

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Speaker 2: for instance, the Copilot plus, the NPU and all that

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Speaker 2: sort of thing. It's basically similarly priced to what the

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Speaker 2: you know, these surface pro and surface laptops were in

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Speaker 2: the last iteration, Peter.

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Speaker 4: It's even better than that. In fact, our devices spect

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Speaker 4: for spec twenty to twenty five percent cheaper with the

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Speaker 4: launch of these Copilot plus pieces.

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Speaker 2: And that's going to be reflected in the New Zealand

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Speaker 2: pre reflected in New Zealand pricing as well.

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Speaker 4: I have had many meetings with the biggest retail partners

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Speaker 4: over there in New Zealand as well. They're just as

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Speaker 4: excited as we are.

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Speaker 2: Well, can't wait to get my hands on one to

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Speaker 2: have a play as well, So Tim, we'll see where

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Speaker 2: it goes. Thanks so much for being on the show.

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Speaker 3: Thank you, Peter.

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Speaker 2: So as Tim said, they're the surface range of co

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Speaker 2: Pilot plus PC's debut here on August sixth, many other

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Speaker 2: Copilot plus PCs are now heading the market from the

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Speaker 2: likes of Aser, Dell, HP and Lenovo. So that's what

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Speaker 2: you will pretty much be presented with now if you're

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Speaker 2: buying a sort of a higher end new Windows PC,

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Speaker 2: a device with a neural processing unit built into it

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Speaker 2: that does the AI workloads on the device.

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Speaker 1: And we will report back once we've spent a bit

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Speaker 1: of time playing with these new devices trying out recall

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Speaker 1: and other AI features.

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Speaker 2: Moving on, Ben to your interview with Black pearls Nick Lassett. Now,

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Speaker 2: Black Pearl is listed on the Interdex with a market

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Speaker 2: capitalization of around thirty seven million as we record this,

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Speaker 2: but because it's primarily focused on the US market, it

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Speaker 2: doesn't have much of for a profile here. What does

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Speaker 2: Black Pearl actually do well?

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Speaker 1: Like you said, it's an nz X listed tech company

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Speaker 1: and it mainly supplies software for marketing and lead generation

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Speaker 1: and their flagship product is called Pearl Diver, which unearth's

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Speaker 1: data about website visitors for sales and marketing, which has

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Speaker 1: traditionally been done using cookies, which you'll probably be familiar

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Speaker 1: with at this point. But Black Pearl claim to be

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Speaker 1: prepared for the impending cookie apocalypse, which is when browsers

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Speaker 1: will no longer support kind of standardized cross site collection

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Speaker 1: of user data by default. It's been coming for some time.

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Speaker 1: It's been delayed, but we've been promised cookies are on

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Speaker 1: the way out now. From what I understand, Black Pearl

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Speaker 1: use their own bespoke tracking software code which links with

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Speaker 1: data that has shared among partners in a data cooperative.

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Speaker 1: So if you filled out a form with Company A,

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Speaker 1: they can link your data with Black Pearls tracker, and

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Speaker 1: if that track is used by Company B and you

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Speaker 1: visit Company b's website, then they will know that you've

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Speaker 1: been there and maybe get a bit of information about you.

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Speaker 1: I believe that's how it works. They also have some

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Speaker 1: clever kind of AI algorithm stuff there to help with

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Speaker 1: getting more of that information and confirming people who they

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Speaker 1: say they are and all those kinds of things as well.

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Speaker 2: Nick is definitely a go big or go home kind

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Speaker 2: of guy, as you'll realize that you listen to the interview.

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Speaker 2: So here it is Ben's interview with Black Pearl Groups

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Speaker 2: Nick Lissett.

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Speaker 1: Hi, Nick, welcome to the Business of Tech podcast. Thanks

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Speaker 1: for joining us.

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Speaker 3: Thank you very much for having me be.

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Speaker 1: So you are the head of Black Pearl Group, a

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Speaker 1: company that listed in late twenty twenty two on the

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Speaker 1: z X and has since gone on to realize a

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Speaker 1: bit of success. You want to give us a brief

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Speaker 1: intro about yourself.

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Speaker 3: Well, I'm definitely the ugly head. We've got much better

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Speaker 3: looking aheads here. So unfortunately I was nominated as the face,

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Speaker 3: the founder and CEO here at Blackbild Group. And just

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Speaker 3: for those that don't know who we are or what

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Speaker 3: we do, we're a data technology company and we specialise

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Speaker 3: in building data, lead sales and marketing solutions, specifically for

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Speaker 3: the US smaller medium sized business market.

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Speaker 1: So you are obviously US focused. But you're based in

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Speaker 1: New Zealand, you're listed on the zat X and being

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Speaker 1: in business in New Zealand for a while now, you've

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Speaker 1: noticed that there are some challenges to starting a business

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Speaker 1: in New Zealand that you know is aiming to become

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Speaker 1: a big global success or a unicorn, as like to

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Speaker 1: call them.

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Speaker 3: Yes, scale scales the problem right, and kiwis we do

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Speaker 3: a lot of things amazingly well, but we don't understand

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Speaker 3: scale typically. So you know, if you look at even

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Speaker 3: the fact you mentioned before, we're focused on the US market.

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Speaker 3: Why are we focused on the US market? Because I

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Speaker 3: think there's maybe seven hundred thousand businesses in New Zealand

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Speaker 3: and ninety something percent of them are micro businesses. In

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Speaker 3: the US market we're focused in there is twenty five

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Speaker 3: million SMI businesses and five point five million emy businesses

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Speaker 3: and half half a million new businesses every year. That's scale,

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Speaker 3: you know.

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Speaker 1: To be able to dig into that US market. There

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Speaker 1: are a lot of boundaries barriers, I should say, for

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Speaker 1: New Zealand companies. So you know, like you say, a

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Speaker 1: lot of the QWI companies are very small companies, just

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Speaker 1: a few heads. So if you're planning to scale, the

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Speaker 1: only real way is to raise capital, right, to go

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Speaker 1: to a venture or to have something that's just so

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Speaker 1: massively successful immediately that revenue starts pouring in, which is

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Speaker 1: almost impossible.

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Speaker 3: That's definitely the preferable way of I cracked that one

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Speaker 3: I'll leave, you.

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Speaker 1: Know, So what so what do we do, like how

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Speaker 1: do we get New Zealand businesses to find this success?

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Speaker 1: New Zealander is by nature small, BC is hard to

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Speaker 1: come by. It's complicated. So it's a big one question.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, you know, I mean, well, you know, we're talking

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Speaker 3: about scale and it's interesting. Why just take a step

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Speaker 3: back and talk about ourselves for a second, because of

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Speaker 3: course that's what we like talking about. But like with this,

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Speaker 3: like maybe twenty five million dollars in our core technology

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Speaker 3: platform and everyone's like, wow, you know, there's a huge

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Speaker 3: amount of money and wow, it's a lot of investment.

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Speaker 3: Well to put that on context, that's fifteen million dollars

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Speaker 3: US right over the lifetime of our company that we've

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Speaker 3: put into it. In the US are typical in like

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Speaker 3: Silicon Valley, which is a little distorted, but you know,

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Speaker 3: Technology Hub, their seed rounds are three million US, their

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Speaker 3: A rounds are ten million US, their B rounds are

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Speaker 3: one hundred million US. That is the kind of capital

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Speaker 3: that you're competing against. And if you are after a

440
00:25:25,920 --> 00:25:28,560
Speaker 3: New Zealand company trying to take on a global market,

441
00:25:28,760 --> 00:25:31,880
Speaker 3: you're after people that are ten x in or twenty

442
00:25:31,920 --> 00:25:34,760
Speaker 3: eggs in the amount of capital that you have to compete.

443
00:25:35,680 --> 00:25:38,760
Speaker 3: That capital does not exist in New Zealand. That thinking

444
00:25:38,840 --> 00:25:41,960
Speaker 3: does not exist in New Zealand. So if we want

445
00:25:42,000 --> 00:25:45,360
Speaker 3: to have companies that succeed, then we have to invest

446
00:25:45,480 --> 00:25:48,159
Speaker 3: on them to get off shore and get a sugar

447
00:25:48,200 --> 00:25:51,280
Speaker 3: money quickly. And if you do like what we've done

448
00:25:51,320 --> 00:25:53,920
Speaker 3: in Black Pearl, bring that back into New Zealand, which

449
00:25:54,000 --> 00:25:59,119
Speaker 3: obviously is hugely beneficial for the economy. So the secret

450
00:25:59,119 --> 00:26:02,840
Speaker 3: what we did is we took existing all the small

451
00:26:02,880 --> 00:26:05,560
Speaker 3: amounts of capital we raised up front and we just

452
00:26:05,640 --> 00:26:08,840
Speaker 3: shot off to America and I didn't leave until I

453
00:26:08,880 --> 00:26:13,080
Speaker 3: got value add investment capital from there. And it's tough,

454
00:26:13,760 --> 00:26:16,439
Speaker 3: but we wouldn't be where we are today as a

455
00:26:16,480 --> 00:26:18,720
Speaker 3: company if we didn't deploy those tactics.

456
00:26:19,640 --> 00:26:22,000
Speaker 1: You said that we don't have the capital, that's reasonably

457
00:26:22,040 --> 00:26:25,160
Speaker 1: easy to understand. That makes sense. It was only five

458
00:26:25,200 --> 00:26:27,520
Speaker 1: and a half million of us after all. Then you

459
00:26:27,560 --> 00:26:29,879
Speaker 1: also said we don't have the thinking. What do you

460
00:26:29,920 --> 00:26:30,560
Speaker 1: mean by that?

461
00:26:31,880 --> 00:26:36,480
Speaker 3: So I started my first company at twenty four because

462
00:26:36,920 --> 00:26:40,000
Speaker 3: I was too ugly and stupid to actually get a

463
00:26:40,000 --> 00:26:43,080
Speaker 3: proper job, so to do my own thing and so

464
00:26:43,400 --> 00:26:46,960
Speaker 3: I'm no stranger to raise in capital, which typically you

465
00:26:47,000 --> 00:26:51,879
Speaker 3: need to do to grow. And the traditional thinking here

466
00:26:52,040 --> 00:26:55,840
Speaker 3: is simply I'll get a few New Zealand customers or

467
00:26:56,560 --> 00:27:02,200
Speaker 3: then go to Australia. Well, again you're engineering at that point,

468
00:27:02,359 --> 00:27:05,399
Speaker 3: your thinking is already wrong. You're engineering a product for

469
00:27:05,640 --> 00:27:10,840
Speaker 3: a micro market again, so small seven hundred thousand businesses,

470
00:27:11,400 --> 00:27:15,200
Speaker 3: and then you're burning time and capital. And then you're

471
00:27:15,240 --> 00:27:19,840
Speaker 3: getting to Australia, which is, you know, still small comparative

472
00:27:19,880 --> 00:27:22,720
Speaker 3: to the USC. You actually burn a lot of capital

473
00:27:23,920 --> 00:27:28,200
Speaker 3: by burning time, by just not making an immediate decision

474
00:27:28,280 --> 00:27:30,720
Speaker 3: to go, okay, well we've just got to go off

475
00:27:31,359 --> 00:27:35,280
Speaker 3: after the bigger market. So that thinking every investor kind

476
00:27:35,280 --> 00:27:36,840
Speaker 3: of they want to put it in the bear amount,

477
00:27:36,920 --> 00:27:39,879
Speaker 3: which is normal, like they're trying to mistigate risk. You

478
00:27:39,920 --> 00:27:42,440
Speaker 3: put in the beer amount and send a few KPIs

479
00:27:42,600 --> 00:27:45,760
Speaker 3: which are achievable with your small amount of money. But

480
00:27:45,840 --> 00:27:49,439
Speaker 3: those KPIs are typically out of alignment with what you

481
00:27:49,640 --> 00:27:52,480
Speaker 3: need to actually create a unicorn, to create a true

482
00:27:52,520 --> 00:27:54,600
Speaker 3: international company. They're just different things.

483
00:27:55,200 --> 00:27:57,359
Speaker 1: So where is the thinking wrong here? Is it with

484
00:27:57,480 --> 00:28:00,639
Speaker 1: the founders or is it with the investment? Are we

485
00:28:01,960 --> 00:28:03,840
Speaker 1: do we have investors in New Zealand who are wanting

486
00:28:03,880 --> 00:28:08,760
Speaker 1: to replicate what they do in the US but actually

487
00:28:08,800 --> 00:28:11,960
Speaker 1: not realizing that there needs to be a significant difference

488
00:28:12,280 --> 00:28:14,359
Speaker 1: if you're investing in New Zealand, and that difference is

489
00:28:15,000 --> 00:28:16,080
Speaker 1: getting out first.

490
00:28:16,840 --> 00:28:19,880
Speaker 3: Yeah, I think it's always going to I mean it's

491
00:28:19,920 --> 00:28:22,560
Speaker 3: a bit of both, is your answer. So, and reflecting

492
00:28:22,600 --> 00:28:25,399
Speaker 3: on that question as you ask me that, you know,

493
00:28:25,480 --> 00:28:28,000
Speaker 3: one of the things I wish i'd done is actually

494
00:28:28,480 --> 00:28:32,959
Speaker 3: stuck to my guns a little bit more in earlier

495
00:28:33,000 --> 00:28:35,320
Speaker 3: on in Black Pearl and said no, this is what

496
00:28:35,359 --> 00:28:38,080
Speaker 3: we're doing. And typically what you're doing is you're trying

497
00:28:38,080 --> 00:28:40,920
Speaker 3: to get money and you make compromises. You go, you've

498
00:28:40,920 --> 00:28:42,960
Speaker 3: got a plan as an entrepreneur and you're going to

499
00:28:42,960 --> 00:28:44,960
Speaker 3: do all this, and you need X amount of capital

500
00:28:45,000 --> 00:28:47,400
Speaker 3: to do it, and then you only get half that

501
00:28:47,520 --> 00:28:50,280
Speaker 3: capital or a quarter of their capital. That typically the

502
00:28:50,320 --> 00:28:54,160
Speaker 3: capital doesn't come in one time, it's dragged out over

503
00:28:54,200 --> 00:28:57,360
Speaker 3: a period of time an early startup, and so you're

504
00:28:57,400 --> 00:29:01,320
Speaker 3: always compromising on your business plan and then things don't

505
00:29:01,360 --> 00:29:04,160
Speaker 3: work out. You think, ah, maybe it could work if

506
00:29:04,280 --> 00:29:06,160
Speaker 3: this and this and this, then I can still hurt

507
00:29:06,200 --> 00:29:09,520
Speaker 3: my targets. But you set yourself up to fail. So

508
00:29:10,000 --> 00:29:15,120
Speaker 3: the entrepreneurs are blame through not communicating the market opportunity

509
00:29:15,120 --> 00:29:18,760
Speaker 3: and properly to investors and sticking to your guns. And

510
00:29:18,840 --> 00:29:22,400
Speaker 3: so that's on that side. And on the other side

511
00:29:22,440 --> 00:29:24,840
Speaker 3: you often see investors and they're really trying to de

512
00:29:25,000 --> 00:29:29,120
Speaker 3: risk it and they go half it and a getting

513
00:29:29,200 --> 00:29:31,200
Speaker 3: caught in the middle of the road is nowhere to

514
00:29:31,200 --> 00:29:34,040
Speaker 3: be unless you feel Collins he did well in the

515
00:29:34,040 --> 00:29:36,520
Speaker 3: middle of the road. Everyone else you don't want to

516
00:29:36,560 --> 00:29:39,600
Speaker 3: be there. And so I kind of would say from

517
00:29:39,920 --> 00:29:43,640
Speaker 3: an investor point of view, when you're going in, then

518
00:29:43,800 --> 00:29:47,240
Speaker 3: going going properly back to the company, back and back

519
00:29:47,320 --> 00:29:52,360
Speaker 3: that person and really get them behind them and don't yeah,

520
00:29:52,440 --> 00:29:54,600
Speaker 3: don't do things by half measures and try and de

521
00:29:54,760 --> 00:29:57,640
Speaker 3: risk yourself because you're actually setting yourself up for failure

522
00:29:57,760 --> 00:29:58,360
Speaker 3: by doing that.

523
00:29:59,040 --> 00:30:00,840
Speaker 1: One of the things that I've heard quite a lot

524
00:30:01,480 --> 00:30:03,959
Speaker 1: about the appeal of New Zealand businesses is that they

525
00:30:04,040 --> 00:30:06,600
Speaker 1: are able to do more with less and that makes

526
00:30:06,600 --> 00:30:11,560
Speaker 1: them a really attractive investment for vcs or other investors

527
00:30:11,560 --> 00:30:14,680
Speaker 1: in New Zealand and internationally. Is what you're saying that

528
00:30:14,680 --> 00:30:17,520
Speaker 1: that view of New Zealanders is kind of a limiting

529
00:30:17,720 --> 00:30:19,920
Speaker 1: view or do you think that that is a useful

530
00:30:19,920 --> 00:30:21,760
Speaker 1: thing that we should say, well, yes, we can do

531
00:30:21,800 --> 00:30:23,680
Speaker 1: more with less, but we can also do more than

532
00:30:23,680 --> 00:30:26,080
Speaker 1: more with more. Yeah, excuse that.

533
00:30:27,160 --> 00:30:31,560
Speaker 3: The expector of Kiwi's on doing being really innovative and

534
00:30:31,720 --> 00:30:35,080
Speaker 3: doing lots with little is one of out is one

535
00:30:35,120 --> 00:30:38,160
Speaker 3: of our war our best attribute. And like so you

536
00:30:38,240 --> 00:30:42,240
Speaker 3: see example of like I'm not into into yachting at all,

537
00:30:43,480 --> 00:30:47,560
Speaker 3: but like I've always fascinated by so the Americas carpan

538
00:30:47,640 --> 00:30:52,440
Speaker 3: on that. So twenty and seventeen we're up against you know,

539
00:30:52,640 --> 00:30:54,920
Speaker 3: it was an oracle. You know, I had all about

540
00:30:54,960 --> 00:30:59,960
Speaker 3: that money in behind them, like huge, unlike open checkbook

541
00:31:00,120 --> 00:31:02,320
Speaker 3: on building a boat, and we did not. We had

542
00:31:02,480 --> 00:31:05,760
Speaker 3: very little amount of money, but we innovated and there's

543
00:31:05,800 --> 00:31:08,680
Speaker 3: that cycle technology that was put in and we ended

544
00:31:08,760 --> 00:31:12,440
Speaker 3: up cleaning up and you go, wow, it doesn't matter

545
00:31:12,480 --> 00:31:14,400
Speaker 3: if we don't have much money. We can win the

546
00:31:14,480 --> 00:31:17,880
Speaker 3: day with our innovation. But if you're relying on that day,

547
00:31:17,920 --> 00:31:22,160
Speaker 3: andy it up to compete. There's an unrealistic expectation of

548
00:31:22,240 --> 00:31:26,200
Speaker 3: our superpower and so the advance. So what you've got

549
00:31:26,200 --> 00:31:28,400
Speaker 3: to do is kind of balance the two. You want

550
00:31:28,400 --> 00:31:31,120
Speaker 3: to keep that superpower. You want to run lean, you

551
00:31:31,160 --> 00:31:33,440
Speaker 3: want to you know, I had that speed and ability

552
00:31:33,440 --> 00:31:37,160
Speaker 3: of changing and innovating and thinking. But you still also

553
00:31:37,280 --> 00:31:40,880
Speaker 3: have to have the capital to support some more traditional

554
00:31:42,040 --> 00:31:44,760
Speaker 3: ways of winning as well. And so it's getting that

555
00:31:44,840 --> 00:31:47,160
Speaker 3: right blend. And to come back to your question in

556
00:31:47,200 --> 00:31:52,160
Speaker 3: New Zealand, this is a very attractive country for offshore investment,

557
00:31:52,640 --> 00:31:56,360
Speaker 3: especially from America. In New Zealand actually done a really

558
00:31:56,360 --> 00:32:01,480
Speaker 3: good job of making investment relatively simple for offshore vestors

559
00:32:01,920 --> 00:32:05,880
Speaker 3: and a state or economy and you understand the legal system.

560
00:32:06,040 --> 00:32:10,560
Speaker 3: So it's actually really attractive option given your other options,

561
00:32:10,560 --> 00:32:14,240
Speaker 3: which are Europe you know, UK at the moment, which

562
00:32:14,280 --> 00:32:19,200
Speaker 3: is not that stable, or Australia you know which why

563
00:32:19,240 --> 00:32:23,240
Speaker 3: would you want to do that? Sorry, I.

564
00:32:25,920 --> 00:32:27,840
Speaker 1: Mean that's all good, you know, it's all good and

565
00:32:27,880 --> 00:32:30,280
Speaker 1: well to say that that the US has this massive opportunity.

566
00:32:30,320 --> 00:32:32,480
Speaker 1: We know it has a massive opportunity, but one of

567
00:32:32,480 --> 00:32:35,400
Speaker 1: the difficulties is tapping into that opportunity. And we've seen

568
00:32:35,480 --> 00:32:39,000
Speaker 1: multiple companies in New Zealand try and butt their head

569
00:32:39,080 --> 00:32:41,920
Speaker 1: up against the wall and even zero right. New Zealand's

570
00:32:41,960 --> 00:32:47,120
Speaker 1: biggest success story arguably have struggled in that US market

571
00:32:47,200 --> 00:32:51,320
Speaker 1: as well. So is it just a matter of capital,

572
00:32:51,480 --> 00:32:53,320
Speaker 1: Is it just that you need more money to be

573
00:32:53,440 --> 00:32:56,880
Speaker 1: able to get into the US or what is it?

574
00:32:57,360 --> 00:33:00,880
Speaker 3: Well, firstly, they like from Zero's interview, of which I

575
00:33:01,080 --> 00:33:05,440
Speaker 3: know expert and whatsoever, are obviously a huge fanboy of

576
00:33:05,520 --> 00:33:09,960
Speaker 3: what they've done, being you know, the shining example of

577
00:33:11,120 --> 00:33:16,440
Speaker 3: the SaaS company going off shore. But their initial product

578
00:33:16,560 --> 00:33:20,440
Speaker 3: was not engineered for the US market, right, it was

579
00:33:20,480 --> 00:33:24,120
Speaker 3: engineered for here and then maybe Australia and UK or

580
00:33:24,160 --> 00:33:28,160
Speaker 3: whatever the batting order was, and then the US. Well

581
00:33:28,360 --> 00:33:30,800
Speaker 3: you go look at accounting in the US. It's not

582
00:33:30,960 --> 00:33:34,200
Speaker 3: one country, right, It's like it is one country, it's

583
00:33:34,240 --> 00:33:36,560
Speaker 3: a republic. There's a whole lot of states with all

584
00:33:36,680 --> 00:33:39,320
Speaker 3: their own laws and their own tax laws and everything.

585
00:33:39,400 --> 00:33:42,440
Speaker 3: Right then, like if you not just have that ingrained

586
00:33:42,560 --> 00:33:45,600
Speaker 3: in the cultural difference, well, of course it's going to

587
00:33:45,640 --> 00:33:49,600
Speaker 3: be hard from our point of view. Yeah, it was

588
00:33:49,880 --> 00:33:53,600
Speaker 3: really really hard breaking into America. You know the story.

589
00:33:54,120 --> 00:33:56,880
Speaker 3: I give you the whole story because because it's my

590
00:33:56,960 --> 00:34:01,480
Speaker 3: best story and it's too long, But essentially I knew

591
00:34:01,520 --> 00:34:06,800
Speaker 3: we had to get offshore, like an American value add investor,

592
00:34:07,200 --> 00:34:10,880
Speaker 3: there's American money, and there's American money that is going

593
00:34:10,960 --> 00:34:13,359
Speaker 3: to help you win over there, and that's rare thing.

594
00:34:13,880 --> 00:34:17,560
Speaker 3: So I took off over the States right I was

595
00:34:17,600 --> 00:34:20,479
Speaker 3: literally I booked. I had to book a return trip

596
00:34:20,520 --> 00:34:23,239
Speaker 3: because you know s Divisa only last three months. But

597
00:34:23,280 --> 00:34:25,840
Speaker 3: I will promise you I had no intention of returning.

598
00:34:25,880 --> 00:34:30,960
Speaker 3: I would have overstayed. I was not leaving until I

599
00:34:31,040 --> 00:34:35,399
Speaker 3: got a value out investor. I got zero help from

600
00:34:35,480 --> 00:34:38,480
Speaker 3: New Zealand Trade and Enterprise. They didn't want to introduce

601
00:34:38,520 --> 00:34:42,920
Speaker 3: me to anyone. I had zero assistance from literally anyone.

602
00:34:43,000 --> 00:34:46,440
Speaker 3: I think one person gave me one introduction to someone

603
00:34:46,480 --> 00:34:48,719
Speaker 3: in San Francisco and I flew over and I took

604
00:34:48,719 --> 00:34:53,000
Speaker 3: that meeting and they were no assistants, and then I

605
00:34:54,160 --> 00:34:57,920
Speaker 3: asked for introductions. I was there. I was eating rubbish foods,

606
00:34:58,000 --> 00:35:02,120
Speaker 3: staying in dodgy like I had a two year old son.

607
00:35:02,719 --> 00:35:06,000
Speaker 3: I hadn't you know, my wife's at home. That is

608
00:35:06,040 --> 00:35:08,760
Speaker 3: what you have to do to win. So my made mistake.

609
00:35:08,840 --> 00:35:11,080
Speaker 3: No one is going to give you money if you

610
00:35:11,160 --> 00:35:14,080
Speaker 3: don't put in the effort. And the reason I got

611
00:35:14,400 --> 00:35:17,319
Speaker 3: backed from the guy it's down by business partner, it's

612
00:35:17,360 --> 00:35:21,640
Speaker 3: in Crown after all this, after almost three months of

613
00:35:21,760 --> 00:35:26,000
Speaker 3: just taking a beat down, homesick and not socializing anyone,

614
00:35:26,080 --> 00:35:29,160
Speaker 3: I got introduced to a guy that turned out to

615
00:35:29,160 --> 00:35:32,520
Speaker 3: be the founder and current chairman of Insight Enterprises, which

616
00:35:32,560 --> 00:35:36,200
Speaker 3: is a Fortune five hundred company on the Nasdaq technology company.

617
00:35:36,239 --> 00:35:38,959
Speaker 3: And this guy is like the business partner you dream

618
00:35:39,000 --> 00:35:43,040
Speaker 3: of getting, and everyone goes, oh, you're lucky to get him. Man,

619
00:35:43,120 --> 00:35:46,520
Speaker 3: that's what happens when preparation meets opportunity. I just put

620
00:35:46,560 --> 00:35:50,520
Speaker 3: myself through hell and my family and you know what,

621
00:35:50,600 --> 00:35:53,880
Speaker 3: and I hadn't got home, still wasn't coming home. So

622
00:35:54,800 --> 00:35:56,399
Speaker 3: you got to put yourself in there to win.

623
00:35:57,040 --> 00:35:59,320
Speaker 1: What year was that you were over.

624
00:35:59,200 --> 00:36:01,479
Speaker 3: In the US five six years ago?

625
00:36:02,080 --> 00:36:05,160
Speaker 1: So I guess like one thing that you might, you know,

626
00:36:05,400 --> 00:36:09,120
Speaker 1: need to consider is that the the US tech scene

627
00:36:09,160 --> 00:36:11,840
Speaker 1: is a very different place post post COVID, right, Like

628
00:36:11,920 --> 00:36:14,440
Speaker 1: they're not just the tech scene, but San Francisco is

629
00:36:14,480 --> 00:36:17,560
Speaker 1: a different place. Like there's still opportunity, but it's it's

630
00:36:17,800 --> 00:36:22,040
Speaker 1: it can be more difficult to find those centers of networking,

631
00:36:22,080 --> 00:36:25,920
Speaker 1: the hubs. It's less physical in person. This is what

632
00:36:26,000 --> 00:36:30,279
Speaker 1: I've been hearing. So is that is that accurate? Is

633
00:36:30,320 --> 00:36:33,120
Speaker 1: that making things more challenging now than it was then.

634
00:36:34,080 --> 00:36:39,839
Speaker 3: I think it's the reverse, but like San Francisco, absolutely,

635
00:36:40,000 --> 00:36:44,040
Speaker 3: it's not what it was. Yeah, And I didn't actually

636
00:36:44,160 --> 00:36:46,279
Speaker 3: enjoy it very much when I was there, for all

637
00:36:46,320 --> 00:36:50,360
Speaker 3: the hype I found, you know that when I got

638
00:36:50,440 --> 00:36:53,640
Speaker 3: some meetings with vcs and stuff over there, I didn't

639
00:36:53,800 --> 00:36:56,279
Speaker 3: like the way they thought about things at all. Like

640
00:36:56,320 --> 00:36:59,200
Speaker 3: it didn't gel with me that my business partners from

641
00:36:59,280 --> 00:37:03,040
Speaker 3: Arizona they're like, you know, that's a cowboys state, baby,

642
00:37:03,080 --> 00:37:06,400
Speaker 3: They're like they're way more aligned with Kiwis and the

643
00:37:06,680 --> 00:37:10,279
Speaker 3: kind of that pioneering spirit so different. You know, like

644
00:37:10,320 --> 00:37:12,319
Speaker 3: there are a whole lot of Every state's got its

645
00:37:12,360 --> 00:37:14,319
Speaker 3: own flavor and you got to find one that I

646
00:37:14,360 --> 00:37:18,480
Speaker 3: think works for you a little bit. Yeah that I mean,

647
00:37:18,560 --> 00:37:21,160
Speaker 3: I got some stats the other day I reckon that

648
00:37:21,200 --> 00:37:25,320
Speaker 3: the technology sector is going to go from all trillion

649
00:37:25,840 --> 00:37:29,960
Speaker 3: to twenty trillion valuation, and I want to say by

650
00:37:30,000 --> 00:37:33,960
Speaker 3: twenty thirty. So, like you want to know about growth

651
00:37:34,080 --> 00:37:37,080
Speaker 3: an opportunity over there right now? I don't think there's

652
00:37:37,080 --> 00:37:40,319
Speaker 3: ever been more like now is the time to go.

653
00:37:40,840 --> 00:37:44,400
Speaker 1: So how do you convince an investor in New Zealand?

654
00:37:44,560 --> 00:37:46,600
Speaker 1: Then that that is the right thing. Say you've got

655
00:37:46,640 --> 00:37:50,319
Speaker 1: a startup, you've got seed funding, and now you're saying like,

656
00:37:50,440 --> 00:37:53,279
Speaker 1: I want to go big in the US. I want

657
00:37:53,280 --> 00:37:56,480
Speaker 1: to spend this money that you've given me on spending

658
00:37:56,480 --> 00:37:59,359
Speaker 1: my time in the US selling there rather than put

659
00:37:59,360 --> 00:37:59,760
Speaker 1: on product.

660
00:38:00,200 --> 00:38:02,960
Speaker 3: And he's going wherever you do, don't do it the

661
00:38:03,000 --> 00:38:09,960
Speaker 3: way I did it. Well. The answer is every investor,

662
00:38:10,080 --> 00:38:13,680
Speaker 3: if you actually put out a very like, well thought

663
00:38:13,840 --> 00:38:17,160
Speaker 3: through kind of battle plan for how you're going to

664
00:38:17,200 --> 00:38:20,960
Speaker 3: go around things, then you're giving your communicating. So communication,

665
00:38:21,280 --> 00:38:25,279
Speaker 3: come back to communication. Every time there's been like with

666
00:38:25,320 --> 00:38:28,280
Speaker 3: me an investor and like they haven't been on board

667
00:38:28,360 --> 00:38:31,560
Speaker 3: with something, that's my fault for not communicating properly. And

668
00:38:31,600 --> 00:38:37,799
Speaker 3: if you actually communicate accurately, then you know the chance

669
00:38:37,840 --> 00:38:39,880
Speaker 3: of them being on board with you're a lot higher.

670
00:38:40,200 --> 00:38:43,400
Speaker 3: But the one thing I'd say is like the revenue,

671
00:38:43,719 --> 00:38:47,040
Speaker 3: like revenue really does make life a lot easier for you.

672
00:38:47,080 --> 00:38:48,279
Speaker 3: And there lies the.

673
00:38:50,280 --> 00:38:51,000
Speaker 1: Catch twenty two.

674
00:38:51,640 --> 00:38:54,839
Speaker 3: Yeah, that's the catch twenty two is that you kind

675
00:38:54,920 --> 00:38:57,600
Speaker 3: of everyone wants to see that revenue and so the

676
00:38:57,840 --> 00:39:01,120
Speaker 3: cheapest revenue to getters from News Zealand. But that's the

677
00:39:01,160 --> 00:39:04,759
Speaker 3: wrong revenue to get so again, you know, you've got

678
00:39:04,800 --> 00:39:07,560
Speaker 3: to stick to your gums, put out your plan, show

679
00:39:07,640 --> 00:39:09,560
Speaker 3: the size of the market. How are you going to

680
00:39:09,600 --> 00:39:11,680
Speaker 3: do it? On by the way, if the answer is

681
00:39:11,760 --> 00:39:14,719
Speaker 3: you don't know, then be clearer and understand that you're

682
00:39:14,760 --> 00:39:18,440
Speaker 3: investing to learn over there and try and get the

683
00:39:18,520 --> 00:39:22,919
Speaker 3: investor over the line. That way, transparency, good communication.

684
00:39:23,880 --> 00:39:26,319
Speaker 1: What else you think is not being done right in

685
00:39:26,400 --> 00:39:29,560
Speaker 1: New Zealand When we're looking at these tech companies that

686
00:39:29,640 --> 00:39:34,160
Speaker 1: are maybe have solid product, have good founders, but are

687
00:39:34,200 --> 00:39:37,160
Speaker 1: failing to scale, I guess in the way that they should.

688
00:39:37,920 --> 00:39:41,120
Speaker 3: Yeah, tech seems pretty limited at the moment, like there's

689
00:39:41,200 --> 00:39:45,759
Speaker 3: not a huge layers, just not really the flavor of

690
00:39:45,920 --> 00:39:48,480
Speaker 3: the month, is it at the moment? Like you look

691
00:39:48,520 --> 00:39:53,040
Speaker 3: at successful tech companies and everyone says zero and then

692
00:39:53,040 --> 00:39:54,279
Speaker 3: you go, oh, then what.

693
00:39:54,640 --> 00:39:56,080
Speaker 1: I mean, we've just got to We've just had gen

694
00:39:56,120 --> 00:39:57,440
Speaker 1: Track has become.

695
00:39:58,600 --> 00:40:00,719
Speaker 3: Doing super well. But you have to think, you know,

696
00:40:00,920 --> 00:40:03,239
Speaker 3: like but the average New Zealand though they don't know

697
00:40:03,320 --> 00:40:09,360
Speaker 3: gin Track you know, or Diligence or anyone why you know,

698
00:40:09,560 --> 00:40:12,279
Speaker 3: just those names like who are they? You know? But

699
00:40:12,520 --> 00:40:19,280
Speaker 3: again we're still very centered you know on land and property,

700
00:40:19,440 --> 00:40:21,880
Speaker 3: and no matter what we've done with rule changes and

701
00:40:21,920 --> 00:40:26,360
Speaker 3: mortgage changes, the average key with psychology is around owning

702
00:40:26,400 --> 00:40:30,040
Speaker 3: as much land as possible. The trouble around that is

703
00:40:30,080 --> 00:40:33,440
Speaker 3: then is that that there is is very low risk

704
00:40:33,640 --> 00:40:39,360
Speaker 3: and typically safe return. So you know, like why would

705
00:40:39,360 --> 00:40:42,040
Speaker 3: you not don't hate the player, hate the game. And

706
00:40:42,160 --> 00:40:44,880
Speaker 3: the challenge for New Zealand is then we're not actually

707
00:40:44,960 --> 00:40:49,280
Speaker 3: really adding value bringing in external money into the country,

708
00:40:49,400 --> 00:40:53,279
Speaker 3: just passing money around ourselves and that doesn't help the

709
00:40:53,320 --> 00:40:56,799
Speaker 3: country as a whole. So I don't know, I don't know.

710
00:40:56,880 --> 00:40:59,400
Speaker 3: You know, it's funny asking me these questions. And it's

711
00:40:59,719 --> 00:41:03,240
Speaker 3: so interesting because no matter what is happening in government

712
00:41:03,560 --> 00:41:06,279
Speaker 3: or in the world or anything, I don't care. Like

713
00:41:06,440 --> 00:41:08,600
Speaker 3: that is what it is. I just got to get

714
00:41:08,640 --> 00:41:12,440
Speaker 3: on and regardless of what the conditions are in the market.

715
00:41:12,520 --> 00:41:15,239
Speaker 3: It's like it's like sports, It's like, yeah, they're all black,

716
00:41:15,280 --> 00:41:16,960
Speaker 3: so I'm going to go, oh, it's rainy today, and

717
00:41:17,160 --> 00:41:20,120
Speaker 3: you know we're not going to do well, Like who cares,

718
00:41:20,280 --> 00:41:22,360
Speaker 3: get out there and whatever it is, you got to

719
00:41:22,360 --> 00:41:25,719
Speaker 3: do it. You know, me, long enough, I'd rather die

720
00:41:25,920 --> 00:41:29,160
Speaker 3: than lose a black earl, because I'd never want to

721
00:41:29,200 --> 00:41:31,719
Speaker 3: look at myself in the mirror and think, ah, you

722
00:41:31,800 --> 00:41:36,520
Speaker 3: know what a for eyes. I'm lucky because there's no excuses.

723
00:41:36,640 --> 00:41:38,799
Speaker 3: I don't care. I'm just there to win. And if

724
00:41:38,800 --> 00:41:41,759
Speaker 3: you don't have that psychology, I don't know how you're

725
00:41:41,800 --> 00:41:43,759
Speaker 3: going to win in this And you know.

726
00:41:43,960 --> 00:41:47,640
Speaker 1: In business, Yeah, it's interesting so because you know, on

727
00:41:47,640 --> 00:41:51,239
Speaker 1: one hand, you're saying that, like, it really is all

728
00:41:51,280 --> 00:41:54,839
Speaker 1: about mindset. It's about founder mindset, entrepreneurial mindset, that and

729
00:41:54,840 --> 00:41:56,840
Speaker 1: that drive and that is the most important thing. But

730
00:41:56,920 --> 00:41:58,560
Speaker 1: then on the other hand you're saying, well, we also

731
00:41:58,600 --> 00:42:02,239
Speaker 1: do have all these disincentives in New Zealand that work

732
00:42:02,280 --> 00:42:06,040
Speaker 1: against it, you know, So how do we reconcile that,

733
00:42:06,200 --> 00:42:08,640
Speaker 1: Like do we need fundamental policy shifts in order to

734
00:42:08,680 --> 00:42:12,359
Speaker 1: create that mindset or do we just need to like

735
00:42:12,400 --> 00:42:13,760
Speaker 1: do any cultural shift.

736
00:42:14,080 --> 00:42:16,680
Speaker 3: So I would say this, my job has been a

737
00:42:16,680 --> 00:42:20,000
Speaker 3: lot easier because of Zero. So if I look back

738
00:42:20,040 --> 00:42:22,920
Speaker 3: at some of the challenges that zero must have had

739
00:42:23,040 --> 00:42:26,480
Speaker 3: with getting people to even understand forward revenues like and

740
00:42:26,640 --> 00:42:30,799
Speaker 3: your recurring revenue even now for me, some people are

741
00:42:30,840 --> 00:42:32,880
Speaker 3: a bit like, oh, how does that work? You know?

742
00:42:33,000 --> 00:42:36,120
Speaker 3: What about next month sales? Was like they're already banked. Baby,

743
00:42:36,200 --> 00:42:40,480
Speaker 3: that's recurring, you know, but like they just were trying

744
00:42:40,560 --> 00:42:44,800
Speaker 3: to ship a whole mindset. And then to a degree,

745
00:42:45,320 --> 00:42:48,120
Speaker 3: you know, other technology companies like Black Pearl and the

746
00:42:48,160 --> 00:42:52,000
Speaker 3: others there with recurring revenue SaaS models get to stand

747
00:42:52,080 --> 00:42:56,160
Speaker 3: on you know, Rodgery's shoulders and the wider zero team,

748
00:42:56,680 --> 00:42:59,640
Speaker 3: And the more success you get, the more people that

749
00:43:00,080 --> 00:43:02,160
Speaker 3: port it and understand it, and then you get to

750
00:43:02,200 --> 00:43:05,480
Speaker 3: tipping point, you become undeniable. It's not up to the

751
00:43:05,520 --> 00:43:08,560
Speaker 3: government to make changes on things. I'm sure they could,

752
00:43:08,719 --> 00:43:10,840
Speaker 3: and if you wait around for that, you'll go broke.

753
00:43:11,400 --> 00:43:15,239
Speaker 3: You know, it's up to you as the entrepreneur to

754
00:43:15,360 --> 00:43:18,600
Speaker 3: understand that whatever the conditions are or the conditions, and

755
00:43:18,640 --> 00:43:22,960
Speaker 3: then over time, if there's more Zeros, more gen tracks,

756
00:43:23,120 --> 00:43:27,080
Speaker 3: more Black Pearls out there winning, then it just creates

757
00:43:27,120 --> 00:43:30,040
Speaker 3: momentum and then then you get over the tipping points

758
00:43:30,080 --> 00:43:32,480
Speaker 3: and then people actually go, well, I could buy my

759
00:43:32,520 --> 00:43:35,239
Speaker 3: third investment property, or I could put some money into

760
00:43:35,280 --> 00:43:38,880
Speaker 3: some tech stock because they seem to have a higher return. Sure,

761
00:43:38,960 --> 00:43:41,359
Speaker 3: more risk, but you know, it could be a game

762
00:43:41,440 --> 00:43:44,160
Speaker 3: changer for us. So the more you win, the more

763
00:43:44,200 --> 00:43:47,239
Speaker 3: people get behind you. The easiest way to change is

764
00:43:47,239 --> 00:43:48,719
Speaker 3: by winning.

765
00:43:54,800 --> 00:43:57,360
Speaker 1: So Nicholas that, as you can tell, the guy is

766
00:43:57,360 --> 00:44:00,560
Speaker 1: a hustler in the way that he was speaking, He's

767
00:44:00,600 --> 00:44:04,160
Speaker 1: got some big ideas and I think the key message

768
00:44:04,160 --> 00:44:06,279
Speaker 1: that he repeated a few times and there was that

769
00:44:06,680 --> 00:44:10,319
Speaker 1: you need to be hitting the biggest market or one

770
00:44:10,320 --> 00:44:12,640
Speaker 1: of the biggest markets in the world hard and fast

771
00:44:12,680 --> 00:44:15,040
Speaker 1: and early if you want to be if you want

772
00:44:15,040 --> 00:44:18,920
Speaker 1: to be able to scale big. What's your thought on that, Deake.

773
00:44:19,400 --> 00:44:21,759
Speaker 2: I totally agree with what he's saying. And in the

774
00:44:21,800 --> 00:44:25,520
Speaker 2: current economic climate, I think a lot of New Zealand companies,

775
00:44:25,719 --> 00:44:28,920
Speaker 2: early stage companies will be looking around going, oh my god,

776
00:44:30,400 --> 00:44:33,839
Speaker 2: this is tough going here. Maybe we need to accelerate up,

777
00:44:33,880 --> 00:44:36,600
Speaker 2: not try and find a proof of concepts sort of

778
00:44:36,719 --> 00:44:40,680
Speaker 2: user here, who's going to champion us. Let's maybe knock

779
00:44:40,719 --> 00:44:43,560
Speaker 2: on some doors overseas. And as next said, you know

780
00:44:43,600 --> 00:44:45,840
Speaker 2: he didn't get much joy out of Nzte when he

781
00:44:45,880 --> 00:44:48,759
Speaker 2: went on that mission himself to the US. He had

782
00:44:48,800 --> 00:44:53,600
Speaker 2: to do it himself, do the hard yard, sleeping in

783
00:44:53,680 --> 00:44:56,480
Speaker 2: cheap motels and all of that stuff. I love that

784
00:44:56,600 --> 00:45:01,080
Speaker 2: sort of storytelling from founders, so good on him for

785
00:45:01,160 --> 00:45:04,840
Speaker 2: doing it. The breakthrough really seemed to be coming across

786
00:45:05,160 --> 00:45:09,719
Speaker 2: Tim Crown from Insight Enterprise is a very well established

787
00:45:10,040 --> 00:45:14,440
Speaker 2: tech company. Tim is now the chair of Black Pearl

788
00:45:14,480 --> 00:45:18,680
Speaker 2: Group and very successful entrepreneur and very well connected in

789
00:45:18,719 --> 00:45:21,759
Speaker 2: Arizona and around the US. So I think that has been,

790
00:45:23,360 --> 00:45:26,040
Speaker 2: as Nick pointed out, a real strength. And if you

791
00:45:26,080 --> 00:45:28,279
Speaker 2: just look at the numbers, as Nick was saying, seven

792
00:45:28,360 --> 00:45:33,000
Speaker 2: hundred thousand businesses in New Zealand, most of them smeeths,

793
00:45:33,280 --> 00:45:37,960
Speaker 2: sme small medium sized enterprises, twenty five million in the US.

794
00:45:38,320 --> 00:45:43,000
Speaker 2: So if you can set up there, establish a beachhead,

795
00:45:43,960 --> 00:45:48,200
Speaker 2: develop a great product, your chance of getting hold with

796
00:45:48,280 --> 00:45:49,480
Speaker 2: it is going to be that much greater.

797
00:45:50,120 --> 00:45:52,680
Speaker 1: Yeah, And I thought it was fascinating when I said

798
00:45:52,680 --> 00:45:55,240
Speaker 1: to him, well, you know what about Zero, for example,

799
00:45:55,320 --> 00:45:58,520
Speaker 1: and he was like, well, Zero didn't start with it.

800
00:45:58,560 --> 00:46:01,040
Speaker 1: They didn't start at the US. They built something that

801
00:46:01,080 --> 00:46:04,320
Speaker 1: worked for New Zealand, Australia and even Europe to a

802
00:46:04,360 --> 00:46:08,439
Speaker 1: certain extent, but they weren't. It's almost like he would

803
00:46:08,440 --> 00:46:10,880
Speaker 1: have had to start in a state in the US,

804
00:46:11,600 --> 00:46:14,000
Speaker 1: go really strong in there and then build momentum out

805
00:46:14,640 --> 00:46:16,799
Speaker 1: from there. So which is what he, I guess, is

806
00:46:16,840 --> 00:46:20,319
Speaker 1: trying to do with as doing with Black Pearl as well.

807
00:46:20,480 --> 00:46:22,600
Speaker 1: And I think it's something that, like you said, it's

808
00:46:22,600 --> 00:46:25,080
Speaker 1: going to have to be a real thinker for founders,

809
00:46:25,960 --> 00:46:29,480
Speaker 1: especially of software at the moment. Where are they going

810
00:46:29,520 --> 00:46:32,120
Speaker 1: to start? How long are they going to spend in

811
00:46:32,160 --> 00:46:35,600
Speaker 1: the New Zealand market before they just go after those

812
00:46:35,640 --> 00:46:36,480
Speaker 1: bigger markets.

813
00:46:37,160 --> 00:46:39,799
Speaker 2: Yeah, it's interesting how Zero did it because you do

814
00:46:39,880 --> 00:46:42,480
Speaker 2: have all of that complexity of different regulation and everything.

815
00:46:42,480 --> 00:46:44,680
Speaker 2: In the US, it's a much more complex market to

816
00:46:44,719 --> 00:46:48,160
Speaker 2: try and serve as a small company. What would have

817
00:46:48,200 --> 00:46:51,120
Speaker 2: happened if Zero had put all its early capital and

818
00:46:51,160 --> 00:46:54,719
Speaker 2: resources into California and built a bridgehead there and then

819
00:46:55,160 --> 00:46:59,600
Speaker 2: spread to other states. Who knows, in hindsight, maybe in

820
00:46:59,640 --> 00:47:02,680
Speaker 2: some way have been on the radar off into it

821
00:47:02,760 --> 00:47:05,880
Speaker 2: the big competitor a lot earlier and would have been squashed,

822
00:47:05,960 --> 00:47:07,759
Speaker 2: so they may not have been a Zero. So look,

823
00:47:07,960 --> 00:47:11,680
Speaker 2: I don't know. It is our most successful software startup

824
00:47:11,760 --> 00:47:15,680
Speaker 2: continues to be has a pretty successful global footprint. But

825
00:47:15,719 --> 00:47:20,840
Speaker 2: I think Nick's sort of approach is ultimately the numbers

826
00:47:20,880 --> 00:47:23,920
Speaker 2: bear it out. The right approach is get to the

827
00:47:24,000 --> 00:47:27,000
Speaker 2: US as quickly as you can, particularly for these software

828
00:47:27,040 --> 00:47:29,960
Speaker 2: as a service type plays where you are going to

829
00:47:29,960 --> 00:47:32,200
Speaker 2: have a lot of businesses that are looking for a

830
00:47:32,239 --> 00:47:36,440
Speaker 2: competitive edge. So if they can use Black Pearls tools

831
00:47:36,520 --> 00:47:43,320
Speaker 2: to convert leads into actual business customers, you know that

832
00:47:43,760 --> 00:47:45,400
Speaker 2: that is something that's going to happen more in the

833
00:47:45,480 --> 00:47:46,399
Speaker 2: US than anywhere else.

834
00:47:46,640 --> 00:47:48,640
Speaker 1: As much as I advocate for New Zealand and I

835
00:47:48,680 --> 00:47:51,959
Speaker 1: think that it is a fantastic place, and I think

836
00:47:51,960 --> 00:47:54,759
Speaker 1: that we have a lot to offer. At the end

837
00:47:54,760 --> 00:47:56,640
Speaker 1: of the day, if you want to be a software business,

838
00:47:56,680 --> 00:47:59,000
Speaker 1: you have to have scale. It's just so important. It's

839
00:47:59,040 --> 00:48:00,440
Speaker 1: the thing you hear over and over again when you

840
00:48:00,440 --> 00:48:04,240
Speaker 1: talk to software founders. It's the importance of scale. So yeah,

841
00:48:04,280 --> 00:48:06,520
Speaker 1: there's nowhere else to scale quite like the US.

842
00:48:06,800 --> 00:48:09,279
Speaker 2: Absolutely all right.

843
00:48:09,320 --> 00:48:11,879
Speaker 1: Thank you so much to Nicholae black Pearl for coming

844
00:48:11,880 --> 00:48:14,120
Speaker 1: on the show to talk about gaining a foothold in

845
00:48:14,200 --> 00:48:15,280
Speaker 1: the US.

846
00:48:15,239 --> 00:48:19,040
Speaker 2: And thanks also to Tim Muzak from Microsoft for inviting

847
00:48:19,080 --> 00:48:20,880
Speaker 2: me to Sydney to check out the new range of

848
00:48:20,920 --> 00:48:25,120
Speaker 2: Copilot Plus surface devices from Microsoft. Show notes in the

849
00:48:25,160 --> 00:48:28,719
Speaker 2: Tech section at Businessdesk dot Co dot Nz with more

850
00:48:28,800 --> 00:48:32,320
Speaker 2: info about Black Pearl Group and Copilot Plus PCs.

851
00:48:32,480 --> 00:48:35,040
Speaker 1: You'll also find our reading list there. Featuring the tech

852
00:48:35,120 --> 00:48:38,160
Speaker 1: stories that caught our attention this week, and the Business

853
00:48:38,160 --> 00:48:40,600
Speaker 1: of Tech is on all major podcast platforms as well

854
00:48:40,640 --> 00:48:43,839
Speaker 1: as iHeartRadio, where you can stream every episode, and if

855
00:48:43,840 --> 00:48:46,440
Speaker 1: you like, head over to Apple Podcasts and leave us

856
00:48:46,440 --> 00:48:49,800
Speaker 1: a review to help people find the show and especially

857
00:48:49,840 --> 00:48:51,760
Speaker 1: share it with your friends and colleagues.

858
00:48:51,840 --> 00:48:56,759
Speaker 2: Absolutely and get in touch with your feedback ideas, topic suggestions,

859
00:48:57,200 --> 00:49:00,120
Speaker 2: and guest suggestions as well. Email Ben on Ben at

860
00:49:00,200 --> 00:49:02,640
Speaker 2: business deesk, dot co, dot e zet. We'll find both

861
00:49:02,640 --> 00:49:05,839
Speaker 2: of us on LinkedIn and occasionally.

862
00:49:05,560 --> 00:49:08,960
Speaker 1: X very occasionally. For me, I'm afraid, but I do

863
00:49:09,080 --> 00:49:12,320
Speaker 1: check innicapable. We'll be back next Thursday with another dose

864
00:49:12,360 --> 00:49:14,200
Speaker 1: of the Business I'll tech Delanne.

865
00:49:14,440 --> 00:49:16,560
Speaker 4: Have a great week.