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Speaker 1: Many people are feeling the chill winds blowing through the

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Speaker 1: economy as unemployment mounts and lingering high interest rates and

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Speaker 1: the cost of living continue to make it tough families.

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Speaker 1: Throw in the odd ferry grounding and pylon collapse, and

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Speaker 1: you get the general sense we aren't in great shape.

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Speaker 2: And the same goes for businesses. Really two degrees latest

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Speaker 2: Shaping Business study, now into its fifty year, fines a

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Speaker 2: business community not exactly brimming with confidence and optimism.

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Speaker 1: But one that on the whole indicates that the worst

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Speaker 1: is over and things are more optimistic about the outlook

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Speaker 1: and prospects.

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Speaker 3: I had There are so many great customers out there

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Speaker 3: that are doing really good things, and after the event,

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Speaker 3: I had the pleasure of speaking to a couple of

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Speaker 3: them that were nearly a little bit embarrassed about, you know,

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Speaker 3: how well business is going and the opportunities. And again,

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Speaker 3: I'm a always classful sort of a guy with a

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Speaker 3: strong growth mindset. You just need to embrace and surround

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Speaker 3: yourself with people like that, because I think positive talk

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Speaker 3: and positive edgy because a really long way.

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Speaker 2: Entire times on the Business of Tech powered by two

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Speaker 2: two Degrees Business, we feature an expert panel to look

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Speaker 2: at that Two Degrees Business study which covered barriers to

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Speaker 2: business confidence, hybrid work, access to capital, skills, productivity and

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Speaker 2: much much more.

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Speaker 1: It's a detailed report. Has spoken to a range of

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Speaker 1: business leaders, asking them how they feel, what they're thinking,

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Speaker 1: what they're expecting to be focusing on spending money on

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Speaker 1: all those kinds of things, and we've been covering it

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Speaker 1: here on Business Desk this week.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, I did a panel discussion live in Auckland with

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Speaker 2: a room full of business leaders, a lot of them

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Speaker 2: customers of two Degrees and it was sort of interesting,

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Speaker 2: Like the report, the Shape of Business report really has

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Speaker 2: a slight improvement in sentiment. A lot of businesses and

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Speaker 2: this report about seven hundred people involved in the study

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Speaker 2: that were asked questions, the majority of them small and

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Speaker 2: medium sized businesses, and that reflects really the makeup of

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Speaker 2: New Zealand slightly more optimistic than they were. Some of

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Speaker 2: them described themselves as moving from revival to thriving. So

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Speaker 2: a lot of them were dealing last year with still

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Speaker 2: the tail end of COVID supply chain disruption, just getting

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Speaker 2: back on their feet and then we really started to

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Speaker 2: hit hard economic times. Despite that a lot of them

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Speaker 2: see light at the end of the tunnel, and I

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Speaker 2: think with the prospect of interest rates coming down, things

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Speaker 2: like the cost of capital, repaying debt, all that sort

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Speaker 2: of thing will be a lot more manageable for them.

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Speaker 2: So not a huge shift and sentiment from previous years,

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Speaker 2: I don't think, but considering how glum we are at

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Speaker 2: the moment as a nation, not too bad.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, absolutely, you know, maybe even better than most people

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Speaker 1: would have expected. And in particular it was those small

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Speaker 1: to medium businesses that had the most optimism about the

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Speaker 1: time they had. Overall, there are a few trends found

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Speaker 1: in the data as well, so one of them, of course,

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Speaker 1: is talking about work from home or hybrid working and

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Speaker 1: how attitudes towards that have changed. We've seen a lot

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Speaker 1: in the last year or so of effort, especially in

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Speaker 1: these bigger enterprises, to get employees back into the office.

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Speaker 1: Twenty eight percent of hybrid businesses found that working from

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Speaker 1: home made them less productive compared to working in person,

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Speaker 1: which was a growth from twenty twenty three. But staff

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Speaker 1: still really want that work from home, so our businesses

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Speaker 1: are still being flexible in that space.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, this is really interesting and it mirrors international studies,

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Speaker 2: and we've seen the big tech companies really put their

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Speaker 2: foot down and say we want our staff back in

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Speaker 2: our offices because we think they're more productive. And it's

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Speaker 2: not just productivity really, but it's all those things that

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Speaker 2: come from having people working face to face, the mentorship,

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Speaker 2: supporting each other, the teamwork. Companies are realizing when people

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Speaker 2: are working from home, they may be actually more productive

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Speaker 2: in the short term, but over the long term you

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Speaker 2: miss out on all of that fostering of talent and

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Speaker 2: supporting other people to do things. So business leaders are

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Speaker 2: recognizing that and starting to put their foot down a

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Speaker 2: little bit.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, I do think there is a company culture piece

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Speaker 1: to this as well, because there are a lot of

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Speaker 1: companies that are making pure remote work really well for them.

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Speaker 1: So I think that, you know, it depends on the business.

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Speaker 1: It depends on what the business is doing, and it

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Speaker 1: depends on how ingrained those traditional business structures are. How

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Speaker 1: many new ways of working models have kind of been

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Speaker 1: put in to try and enable it. But yeah, it

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Speaker 1: is interesting that they're seeing work from home is less

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Speaker 1: of an a lure to getting these high skilled people

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Speaker 1: and looking more into bringing people from overseas into the country, and.

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Speaker 2: That sort of goes to one of the other sort

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Speaker 2: of findings off the report, which is that skilled shortages

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Speaker 2: are still a thing despite unemployment being on the rise.

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Speaker 2: It doesn't necessarily mean that highly skilled jobs are suddenly

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Speaker 2: being easily filled. There's still a lot of difficulty getting

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Speaker 2: skilled labor, so that's a barrier to improving productivity. And

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Speaker 2: it used to be that businesses saw working from home

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Speaker 2: as a big sort of way to lure in skilled staff.

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Speaker 2: Businesses don't really see that as a big attractive thing anymore.

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Speaker 2: They're actually looking to international migration. They see that as

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Speaker 2: a key role for many businesses to get the people

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Speaker 2: that they need. And that's been the story of New

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Speaker 2: Zealand skills for a long time now, is that we

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Speaker 2: have a lot of people coming in. Migration is very

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Speaker 2: much up because they're just not getting the local skills

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Speaker 2: they need from our domestic talent pool. But there was,

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Speaker 2: as you'd expect, a lot of interest in the perceived

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Speaker 2: importance of automation and artificial intelligence identified in this study.

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Speaker 2: A lot of businesses, clearly in the last year have

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Speaker 2: been playing around with AI and see it as even

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Speaker 2: if they're not using it for customer facing things or

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Speaker 2: really to power their businesses. At the moment, they realize

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Speaker 2: that it's an enabler of productivity alongside getting the right

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Speaker 2: skilled labor, so that's of importance as well. And you know,

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Speaker 2: just talking to businesses in the room and often when

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Speaker 2: we did the live event for this, a lot of

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Speaker 2: them are really grappling with this question at the moment.

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Speaker 2: And we're seeing this in research around the world that

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Speaker 2: the payoff from AI isn't being realized. A lot of

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Speaker 2: businesses who have implemented it are going I'm not seeing

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Speaker 2: the return on investment yet. New Zealand businesses are seeing

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Speaker 2: that they're dabbling, but they're sort of a little bit

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Speaker 2: hesitant until they know that it's really solid investment case.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, I think those technology first companies are starting to

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Speaker 1: really push the boat out on some of these AI tools.

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Speaker 1: But I mean, automation has been around for some time.

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Speaker 1: I do feel like in some ways, the modern hype

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Speaker 1: and interest around AI has started to get people to

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Speaker 1: think about the automation side of things that people have

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Speaker 1: been talking about for you know, near on a decade now,

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Speaker 1: to take that side of more seriously. You know, the

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Speaker 1: profile raising of AI has rows all automation boats as

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Speaker 1: it were.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, one of the other findings the cost concerns that

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Speaker 2: we're really at a peak in twenty twenty two with

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Speaker 2: inflation very high, and that was heading sort of the

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Speaker 2: supply chain expensive to get things they need into New

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Speaker 2: Zealand to have declined slowly and will continue to as

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Speaker 2: get the government starts to get inflation under control. But

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Speaker 2: a big thing identified as a lingering problem is the

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Speaker 2: cost of doing business and lack of access to affordable capital.

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Speaker 2: And obviously we've got a high interest rate environment, so

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Speaker 2: it's expensive to get loans. But it's sort of a

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Speaker 2: sense that we need better options to allow businesses to

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Speaker 2: get the capital they need to invest in their operations

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Speaker 2: and become more productive as a result.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, the concerns are declining, but there are still concerns

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Speaker 1: I think is the key. And then we still need

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Speaker 1: to be thinking about how are we going to get

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Speaker 1: the increasing amount of capital that we need to be

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Speaker 1: successful in New Zealand into New Zealand.

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Speaker 2: A lot of interesting themes there and we've got a

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Speaker 2: panel of experts who are really in tune with what

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Speaker 2: is going on with business, which I was able to

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Speaker 2: catch up with following our live event in Auckland, I

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Speaker 2: sat down with them here. I'll just give you a

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Speaker 2: rundown on who you're going to hear over the next

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Speaker 2: half hour or so. A great lineup of people, including

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Speaker 2: Anna Fitzgibbon, who's a partner at Deloitte Private so she

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Speaker 2: works with high net family groups and big large New

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Speaker 2: Zealand businesses advising on a range of tax and accounting issues.

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Speaker 2: We've got. Simon Bridges sort of needs little introduction CEO

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Speaker 2: of the Auckland Business Chamber these days, but led the

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Speaker 2: National Party and Opposition between twenty eighteen and twenty twenty,

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Speaker 2: was the MP for Tarraga from twenty and eight to

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Speaker 2: twenty twenty two and was a litigation and Crown lawyer

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Speaker 2: before that. And Mark Calder, who we had on recently

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Speaker 2: on the podcast, the CEO of Two Degrees. He's capped

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Speaker 2: off a long career in New Zealand's telecommunications industry, leading

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Speaker 2: iconic challenger brands like Slingshot and Call Plus. He led

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Speaker 2: the merger of two degrees in Focus, creating our countries

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Speaker 2: the third largest tel code's got annual revenue of over

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Speaker 2: a billion dollars, so a lot of great insights there.

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Speaker 2: I was able to sit down with these people really

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Speaker 2: drill into some of those issues we've already discussed about

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Speaker 2: what is actually shaping business in twenty twenty four?

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Speaker 1: Interesting and are you lots of great insight from these

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Speaker 1: business leaders. Let's have a listen to that now.

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Speaker 2: So Mike calendar the Shaping Business Studies out for the

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Speaker 2: fifth year. Why do you do this every year? What's

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Speaker 2: the commitment to actually going in depth with businesses to

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Speaker 2: find out what the level of confidence is, what their

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Speaker 2: view of the future is.

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Speaker 3: Yeah. From a two degrees perspective, it's a market that

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Speaker 3: we're obviously really passionate about. It's a key part of

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Speaker 3: our growth story. But you've really got to understand the

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Speaker 3: heartbeat of New Zealand businesses to understand how it influences

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Speaker 3: what you do on market, how you turn up, how

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Speaker 3: you compete, and mood of the nation. So from our perspective,

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Speaker 3: it's the longevity of the survey which is really important,

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Speaker 3: but a really good SIMI in a good mix of

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Speaker 3: you know, small, medium and large enterprise in that group.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, And one of the key phrases that stood out

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Speaker 2: for me from perceptive research, who did it is the

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Speaker 2: mindset is fragile. So a lot of the indicators there

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Speaker 2: are quite similar to previous years. I think you said

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Speaker 2: to me earlier, you know flat is actually good. That

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Speaker 2: means they are sort of out of survive just basically surviving.

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Speaker 2: They're reviving. Some of them are actually thriving, and we've

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Speaker 2: spoken to businesses today that are saying that as well.

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Speaker 2: One of the big issues that was explored in the

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Speaker 2: study was around hybrid work, which really kicked in during

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Speaker 2: the pandemic where people were working from home and then

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Speaker 2: we came back to the office part of the week.

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Speaker 2: We're trying to find that balance. The study shows a

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Speaker 2: real tension their businesses want their people back in the

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Speaker 2: office in some cases every day at least three days

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Speaker 2: a week. In other cases, a lot of employees are saying,

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Speaker 2: but I love that flexibility and of working from home.

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Speaker 2: How do we find that that balance? Simon Bridges and

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Speaker 2: what do you what's your sense from people at you know,

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Speaker 2: the members of the chamber, how are they approaching this issue.

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Speaker 4: I think that the sort of the debate and the

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Speaker 4: discussions moved along I for a bit over say a

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Speaker 4: couple of years. I think you know, if you cast back,

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Speaker 4: this was a massive issue and people were talking about thinking.

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Speaker 4: But I think you know, what the report shows us

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Speaker 4: is that other issues like cost and you know, business confidence,

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Speaker 4: consumer sentiment of have come to the fore, but this

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Speaker 4: is this is still there. I mean, I think if

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Speaker 4: you you know, reasonably simple propositions are true. Firstly, I

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Speaker 4: think there is a bit of a distinction between s

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Speaker 4: Land and the bigger end of town. I think SMS

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Speaker 4: at a level, workers are back, you know, and and

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Speaker 4: and that's because those businesses need them there in the shop,

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Speaker 4: you know, in the office. I think you've still got

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Speaker 4: you know, pretty high hybrid rates as a generalization, and

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Speaker 4: your big tech firms and your big finance and big

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Speaker 4: corporates in a government and you know, we see that

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Speaker 4: in Wellington where you know that the sentiments you know,

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Speaker 4: a bit more negative and possibly is a bit more

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Speaker 4: at home who you know are starting to think, you know, heck,

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Speaker 4: my job could be on the block.

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Speaker 5: I've got to come back.

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Speaker 4: And I think a really interesting point is around hybrid

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Speaker 4: versus flexibility. They're kind of similar, but they are different.

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Speaker 4: I think flexibility is absolutely here to stay at a

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Speaker 4: level it probably always has been you know, a good

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Speaker 4: employee is always going to let mum and dad go

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Speaker 4: and pick up their six sick kid. They know that

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Speaker 4: they'll get the productivity, you know, the next day. It's

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Speaker 4: not as if a good worker isn't going to kind

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Speaker 4: of finish the jobs that they need to finish. But

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Speaker 4: that's a bit different from hybrid, and I think what's

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Speaker 4: pleasing is my sense of the debate is that it

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Speaker 4: has moved along from a sense you know, maybe too

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Speaker 4: certainly in the height of COVID two years back, two

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Speaker 4: and a half years back, that that hybrid was pro productivity.

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Speaker 4: Actually being in your pajamas, eating your jam, toast whatever,

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Speaker 4: being able to put on your washing and then go

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Speaker 4: and being out an hour and a half was good.

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Speaker 5: I think increasingly the smart viewers.

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Speaker 4: Though, that what we actually want is we want people

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Speaker 4: in the office for good amounts of time, collaborating, learning

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Speaker 4: from each other, being men toward and following a common purpose.

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Speaker 4: If you're not in the office, you're not going to

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Speaker 4: learn what's happening. You're not going to have a sense

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Speaker 4: of that. Zooms et cetera. Can replace it at a level,

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Speaker 4: but yeah, they're not the same.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, I think that's what's behind it. And Anna Deloitte

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Speaker 2: does a lot of research around the world on this

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Speaker 2: particular issue. What you are seeing from that research sort

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Speaker 2: of reflecting what is happening here in New Zealand.

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Speaker 6: Yeah, I think so. I think, like Simon alluded to,

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Speaker 6: I think we're probably seeing a bit of a trend

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Speaker 6: towards you know, back in the office, whether that's you know,

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Speaker 6: a couple of mandating a couple of days of the

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Speaker 6: week or more. We did a Millennial and gen Z

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Speaker 6: survey in May back in May, and that was kind

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Speaker 6: of across forty four countries and over to two thirds

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Speaker 6: of the respondents and these are the employers, so not

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Speaker 6: you know, not necessarily the Millennial and gen Z cohort,

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Speaker 6: but they were sort of saying two thirds of employers

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Speaker 6: were looking to have some sort of you know, in

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Speaker 6: the office type environment. And we were chatting about it earlier.

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Speaker 6: I think, you know, everyone can see you know, huge

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Speaker 6: benefits in terms of you know, team collaboration, your culture,

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Speaker 6: your team environment. So I think it's important that we

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Speaker 6: get that balance right. At the same time, that survey

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Speaker 6: showed that, you know, flexibility is sort of the one

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Speaker 6: of the number one thing that people look for and

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Speaker 6: when they're looking for a job, and also kind of

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Speaker 6: one of the most admired characteristics when they're talking to

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Speaker 6: their peer groups about their jobs. So I think to

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Speaker 6: Simon's point, you know, flexibility is here to stay. It's

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Speaker 6: probably important that we get that balance right. But to

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Speaker 6: some extent I also agree. I think the flexibility has

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Speaker 6: probably always been there as well. So I think it's

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Speaker 6: it's not going away anywhere, and we're just going to

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Speaker 6: make sure our businesses kind of adapt and find out

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Speaker 6: what works for them.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, and it has big implications for everything from what

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Speaker 2: sort of footprint sort of premises you have. And we're

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Speaker 2: seeing a lot of corporate HQs sort of change configuration,

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Speaker 2: some of them slimming down, some of them are sort

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Speaker 2: of hot desking now so they can accommodate a hybrid

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Speaker 2: workforce at any one time. Mike, what has it been

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Speaker 2: like for two degrees? What's been your approach to hybrid work.

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Speaker 3: Yes, So, again, as a large enterprise employing lots of people,

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Speaker 3: we have you know, circa eighteen hundred odd people I

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Speaker 3: use the area our technology team, so we've got you know,

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Speaker 3: four hundred and fifty across our technology, infrastructure and digital team,

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Speaker 3: so we've got a very large team in that regard,

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Speaker 3: you need to offer flexibility to that workforce because the

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Speaker 3: hybrid working suits them. What we try and impart on

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Speaker 3: all our stuff though, is when it comes to the job,

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Speaker 3: somebody does. It's what's best for me, what's best for

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Speaker 3: our customers, and what's best for our team. So it's

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Speaker 3: getting that balance right. So hybrid is absolutely here to stay.

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Speaker 3: I think consistency imbalance is really important. But also when

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Speaker 3: people are coming into the offices, you've got to make

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Speaker 3: sure they earn the commute. So are my teams there

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Speaker 3: what you know, extracurricular functions do we have on how

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Speaker 3: can we improve collaboration? But I think back to Simon's

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Speaker 3: earlier point, I think it does vary by business size

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Speaker 3: a lot. Again, we speak to a lot of SMEs,

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Speaker 3: you speak to a smith, they're all back in the

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Speaker 3: office because there's nowhere to hide. You've got to muck in.

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Speaker 3: You're doing multiple jobs, you're putting multiple hats on. And

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Speaker 3: also in a lot of those scenarios, the officers aren't,

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Speaker 3: to your earlier point, aren't set up to really flourish

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Speaker 3: in a hybrid working environment. So so the most important

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Speaker 3: think is as an employer, as consistency of of what

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Speaker 3: you know you're enforcing for your staff and what's best

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Speaker 3: for you, you know, your own company.

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Speaker 4: I think what you hear from Mark is in New

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Speaker 4: Zealand to date, it's been a pretty subtle process, you know,

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Speaker 4: and the leadership is rather more subtle dere sat than

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Speaker 4: you know, perhaps what we've seen in the United States

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Speaker 4: and in Australia. We're in the United States, you know,

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Speaker 4: as we were saying earlier that the lights of Mark

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Speaker 4: Zuckerberg basically mandating your back or in Australia the extent

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Speaker 4: which this is actually real, but you know that sense

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Speaker 4: that you know, working from home means you won't get

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Speaker 4: the pay rise. I do think a better balance is important, though.

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Speaker 4: I mean, I'm pretty the chamber passionate about the city center,

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Speaker 4: and that's not because I forget about the other parts

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Speaker 4: of the city centers really met. I think all the

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Speaker 4: evidence is to eight nine percent of our GDP, we

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Speaker 4: do want people back, and so for that reason, and

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Speaker 4: I think to Anna's point, I think the other, you know,

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Speaker 4: really opposite point here is around is young people, whether

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Speaker 4: or not and I'm probably a bit patronizing whether or

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Speaker 4: not they get it. I do think you know, you're

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Speaker 4: never going to kind of get that promotion unless you're

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Speaker 4: there in front of your boss. You know, that mental ship,

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Speaker 4: that sense of learning.

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Speaker 5: So I think I.

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Speaker 4: Think that's where you know, there's balance and getting hybrid

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Speaker 4: right slightly better and perhaps we've had it at the

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Speaker 4: height of COVID is so important.

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Speaker 3: In fact, someone we see the younger talent in the

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Speaker 3: organization wanting to come to the office, so we actually

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Speaker 3: see that trend quite different. So it's that younger cohort

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Speaker 3: that are bringing the passion, the energy, that desire to learn,

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Speaker 3: collaborate with teams and discover new things.

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Speaker 4: Those terrible middle ages with the big houses and the

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Speaker 4: lifestyle block and the you know, they're the ones we've

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Speaker 4: got to watch out.

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Speaker 5: We've graduated.

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Speaker 6: I think some in your point around kind of an

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Speaker 6: office learning is really critical and we see that a lot,

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Speaker 6: you know at Lloyd kind of hiring a large grad

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Speaker 6: and cohort. I think that what you learn from just

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Speaker 6: the people around you, the conversations you hear from sitting

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Speaker 6: right next to your boss, I think that's really important.

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Speaker 6: And I think that's what you miss out on if

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Speaker 6: you're at home.

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Speaker 2: And part of the attractiveness of hybrid or even remote

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Speaker 2: work why ite was sort of offered and encouraged early on,

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Speaker 2: really wants to meet that skill shortage. Okay, you're you're

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Speaker 2: obviously fantastic. You want to do it from Timaru. That's fine,

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Speaker 2: we'll accommodate that. There's less of an appetite for that now.

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Speaker 2: But the survey DOOS show a big concern among businesses

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Speaker 2: looking to fill skill gaps. They're looking to migration to

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Speaker 2: do that. Even though unemployment is on the rise, there

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Speaker 2: are still critical skills gaps, particularly in those high value roles.

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Speaker 2: What are we doing to develop that domestic skills pipeline

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Speaker 2: We've seen simon you know, Tipu king a merger, unwound

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Speaker 2: universities are really in trouble businesses saying that the education

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Speaker 2: sector isn't delivering the people with the skills and the

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Speaker 2: agility to upskill and reskill quickly enough. What do we

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Speaker 2: need to do?

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Speaker 4: I think first, you know, this this issue of skills

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Speaker 4: actually unskills even you know, just anyone, which was massive,

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Speaker 4: you know a year and a half ago. I mean,

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Speaker 4: it was everything every business. It was the kind of top, second, third,

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Speaker 4: fourth issue that's dissipated. Right, We've said, very high immigration

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Speaker 4: with an economy that's come off and you know technically

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Speaker 4: points and time being in recession, so it's become much

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Speaker 4: more of an employer's market. All of that said, this

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Speaker 4: ain't going and if we right it is still you

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Speaker 4: know at a medium, long term sort of trend issue.

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Speaker 4: You know, one of a couple of along with I

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Speaker 4: think probably technological acceleration our big issues in terms of productivity.

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Speaker 4: We Chamber did it, did a report with two degrees

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Speaker 4: came out this year on Aland as a tech hub

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Speaker 4: and what's required there is she Deloitte helped us a

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Speaker 4: lot as well, right this, So this is kind of

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Speaker 4: a mutual group that put that together. I think at

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Speaker 4: a high level there were two big cross themes. One

401
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Speaker 4: was around in for but the other was on this

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Speaker 4: skills talent point. And I think what came through loud

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Speaker 4: and clear to me first is we need to do

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Speaker 4: a better job as a country of the pathway from

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Speaker 4: school into tertiary. You know, if we need more people

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Speaker 4: in fintech, if we need more people in health tech

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Speaker 4: and agri tech, and you know an AI trained in

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Speaker 4: these areas. You know, we need to start that at

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Speaker 4: secondary and they need to see how they get into

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Speaker 4: a tertiary qualification out into the workforce. I think the

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Speaker 4: second high level. So thought that's that's particularly important, and

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Speaker 4: there are pockets of excellence and people doing a good

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Speaker 4: job of this, but is really around increasing the integration

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Speaker 4: between employers and tertiary sector, you know, and that's in

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Speaker 4: a couple of senses actually probably the wrong word, but

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Speaker 4: churning out the young people that the sectors need.

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Speaker 5: Right.

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Speaker 4: So the numbers I told you earlier about twelve and

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Speaker 4: a half thousand in about twenty twelve, I think cast

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Speaker 4: forward a decade or so, it's more like twelve nine hundreds,

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Speaker 4: we've barely moved the numbers doing specific technological qualifications in

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Speaker 4: our tertiary providers.

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Speaker 5: We need a.

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Speaker 4: Much better sense that actually the sector needs this amount

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Speaker 4: and fintech this amount with coding and have those specific

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Speaker 4: courses for them. And then I think making sure that

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Speaker 4: this is this is on the employers as well, by

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Speaker 4: the way, making sure our big technological employers are working

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Speaker 4: more closely with the tech tertiary sector to ensure that

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Speaker 4: you know there's in job the training that you know

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Speaker 4: that's better integrated between tertiary and the workplace.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, that's been identified I think by both governments as

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Speaker 2: an issue. And are you with Deloitte? You know tens

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Speaker 2: of thousands of people around the world, so they're looking

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Speaker 2: for talent all the time and getting skilled people in

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Speaker 2: a lot of micro credentials they call them happening at

437
00:23:21,520 --> 00:23:26,760
Speaker 2: Deloitte where if you're an expert in as you're aws,

438
00:23:26,840 --> 00:23:30,320
Speaker 2: you know, Deloitte will help you up skill in those technologies.

439
00:23:30,640 --> 00:23:32,920
Speaker 2: How do we get that sort of thing happening more

440
00:23:32,920 --> 00:23:35,719
Speaker 2: among New Zealand businesses where you actually get a recognized

441
00:23:36,320 --> 00:23:39,880
Speaker 2: micro credential. It's free to do. It only takes eight

442
00:23:39,880 --> 00:23:42,160
Speaker 2: to twelve weeks, it doesn't take a year of study,

443
00:23:42,600 --> 00:23:44,920
Speaker 2: and you can take that qualification to the next employer

444
00:23:44,960 --> 00:23:45,320
Speaker 2: as well.

445
00:23:45,920 --> 00:23:49,119
Speaker 6: Yeah, I think you know the skill shortage topical theme.

446
00:23:49,200 --> 00:23:51,960
Speaker 6: I think you know it goes across a range of industries.

447
00:23:52,119 --> 00:23:54,920
Speaker 6: Tech obviously is the obvious one, but you know we're

448
00:23:54,920 --> 00:23:58,080
Speaker 6: not immune for it, you know, from it either at Deloitte.

449
00:23:58,119 --> 00:24:01,719
Speaker 6: So I think work force training in the micro credentials

450
00:24:01,720 --> 00:24:03,200
Speaker 6: that you mentioned, you know, are going to play a

451
00:24:03,240 --> 00:24:06,240
Speaker 6: really important part in this going forward, especially like what

452
00:24:06,359 --> 00:24:08,119
Speaker 6: Simon mentioned. You know, if we've got a bit of

453
00:24:08,119 --> 00:24:10,760
Speaker 6: a gap in our formal, our tertiary sector at the moment,

454
00:24:11,160 --> 00:24:14,360
Speaker 6: you know, businesses can can plug that to some extent

455
00:24:14,520 --> 00:24:17,440
Speaker 6: with that with those you know, training on the job,

456
00:24:17,680 --> 00:24:20,199
Speaker 6: you know, the online stuff like you mentioned, Peter, a

457
00:24:20,200 --> 00:24:22,119
Speaker 6: lot of it's free. You know, you've got LinkedIn learning,

458
00:24:22,119 --> 00:24:26,520
Speaker 6: You've got various avenues out there to upskill. I think

459
00:24:27,440 --> 00:24:29,720
Speaker 6: from what I saw recently kind of our data insights

460
00:24:29,760 --> 00:24:33,439
Speaker 6: across the Asia Pacific say that you know, AI usage

461
00:24:33,680 --> 00:24:36,119
Speaker 6: and training and AI is really just kind of that

462
00:24:36,320 --> 00:24:40,000
Speaker 6: everyday use people experiencing it and up skinning it themselves.

463
00:24:40,320 --> 00:24:42,719
Speaker 6: So I think that's a really important part of you know,

464
00:24:42,800 --> 00:24:44,399
Speaker 6: plugging those gaps that we're seeing.

465
00:24:44,520 --> 00:24:47,600
Speaker 2: We talked about this last time we met Mike about AI,

466
00:24:47,720 --> 00:24:50,320
Speaker 2: which two degrees is using to quite good effect and

467
00:24:50,400 --> 00:24:52,760
Speaker 2: things like coll centers. But how do you get your

468
00:24:52,800 --> 00:24:56,919
Speaker 2: existing staff upskilled quickly in such a fast moving technology.

469
00:24:57,600 --> 00:25:00,480
Speaker 3: So again, it's creating a cultural environment where it's it's

470
00:25:00,520 --> 00:25:06,040
Speaker 3: around providing education, is providing the guardrails, So it's you sensibly,

471
00:25:06,119 --> 00:25:08,919
Speaker 3: I think the really interesting thing from my perspective. You know,

472
00:25:08,960 --> 00:25:10,960
Speaker 3: the economy has changed so much in ten years. So

473
00:25:11,000 --> 00:25:14,320
Speaker 3: if I look at my industry from a telecommunications perspective,

474
00:25:14,359 --> 00:25:16,280
Speaker 3: we talk about ourselves has been a software tech co.

475
00:25:16,480 --> 00:25:19,080
Speaker 3: Now like ten years ago, we're a telecommunications company. That's

476
00:25:19,160 --> 00:25:21,000
Speaker 3: kind of what we did. Now we're a software company,

477
00:25:21,240 --> 00:25:24,960
Speaker 3: all right. So the demand on that highly skilled resource

478
00:25:25,280 --> 00:25:27,320
Speaker 3: is across so many sectors that didn't you know, didn't

479
00:25:27,320 --> 00:25:29,760
Speaker 3: really have that need ten years ago. So to Simon's

480
00:25:29,760 --> 00:25:31,880
Speaker 3: point earlier, train, train and train some more. And that's

481
00:25:31,960 --> 00:25:35,360
Speaker 3: again what the work that we've done about creating a

482
00:25:35,359 --> 00:25:37,880
Speaker 3: Auckland being a tech hub, that's what came out loud

483
00:25:37,920 --> 00:25:41,080
Speaker 3: and clear. As an organization, we're trying to again inject

484
00:25:41,080 --> 00:25:45,919
Speaker 3: ourselves into tertiary, going into schools and actually showing the

485
00:25:45,960 --> 00:25:49,520
Speaker 3: youth today the pathways and those pathways are wide and varied,

486
00:25:49,560 --> 00:25:52,400
Speaker 3: but it all starts with education. So it's a much

487
00:25:52,400 --> 00:25:54,119
Speaker 3: bigger focus from our perspective. It's going to take a

488
00:25:54,119 --> 00:25:55,520
Speaker 3: way wile to change. It takes a long time to

489
00:25:55,640 --> 00:25:58,800
Speaker 3: change these trends, but I'm absolutely convinced that, you know,

490
00:25:59,000 --> 00:26:01,320
Speaker 3: again the work that was done, you know, Auckland can

491
00:26:01,400 --> 00:26:03,560
Speaker 3: be a tech cub globally.

492
00:26:03,960 --> 00:26:06,920
Speaker 4: We need to and I keep tripping them but brimming

493
00:26:07,040 --> 00:26:09,480
Speaker 4: with things about these topics. I was at a University

494
00:26:09,480 --> 00:26:13,040
Speaker 4: of Auckland event last night and one of the speakers

495
00:26:13,040 --> 00:26:16,200
Speaker 4: actually speaking on AI, made an interesting point I thought,

496
00:26:16,200 --> 00:26:19,719
Speaker 4: which is, you know, with AI, as we increase our

497
00:26:19,720 --> 00:26:22,439
Speaker 4: advancement in that area, in our productivity, that this doesn't

498
00:26:22,440 --> 00:26:25,880
Speaker 4: make universities redundant. I think what it does mean, though,

499
00:26:26,000 --> 00:26:29,160
Speaker 4: is universities less become a place for churning out grads

500
00:26:29,200 --> 00:26:32,600
Speaker 4: that we need from employment. Actually, there's something about being

501
00:26:32,680 --> 00:26:35,600
Speaker 4: humans that are civilized and you know, and so I

502
00:26:35,640 --> 00:26:38,320
Speaker 4: still think it can be a bit fashionable. I'm not saying,

503
00:26:38,320 --> 00:26:40,280
Speaker 4: you know, it's all vocational now and we just need

504
00:26:40,320 --> 00:26:41,960
Speaker 4: these sort of micro credentials.

505
00:26:41,960 --> 00:26:43,280
Speaker 5: No, we need universities as.

506
00:26:43,200 --> 00:26:45,800
Speaker 4: Well, but I think their role is really changing, and

507
00:26:45,880 --> 00:26:50,280
Speaker 4: AI is just accelerating that we no longer need people

508
00:26:50,560 --> 00:26:53,240
Speaker 4: so much at the levels of manual kind of or

509
00:26:53,680 --> 00:26:57,840
Speaker 4: automated sort of work. And sometimes then that that higher

510
00:26:57,920 --> 00:26:59,720
Speaker 4: thinking comes into its own. Yeah.

511
00:27:00,080 --> 00:27:03,600
Speaker 3: Yeah, you think about technology like co pilot, GitHub will

512
00:27:03,640 --> 00:27:06,840
Speaker 3: ch our developers use so A. It's a coaching and

513
00:27:06,880 --> 00:27:09,760
Speaker 3: efficiency tool, but it also enables coding to happen through

514
00:27:09,840 --> 00:27:13,440
Speaker 3: natural language, you know, so you think about the basics

515
00:27:13,480 --> 00:27:16,200
Speaker 3: around what that does for a technology organization that takes

516
00:27:16,240 --> 00:27:19,280
Speaker 3: a lot of that heavyer manual work out of It

517
00:27:19,359 --> 00:27:21,919
Speaker 3: enables your highly skilled resource to work on the more

518
00:27:21,960 --> 00:27:25,119
Speaker 3: important aspects. So again it's certainly alive and kicking across

519
00:27:25,119 --> 00:27:25,800
Speaker 3: most businesses.

520
00:27:26,000 --> 00:27:29,760
Speaker 2: Another big issue identified Mike in your study is businesses

521
00:27:29,920 --> 00:27:33,160
Speaker 2: are frustrated by a lack of access to capital. We're

522
00:27:33,160 --> 00:27:36,560
Speaker 2: obviously in a high interest rate environment at the moment,

523
00:27:36,600 --> 00:27:42,960
Speaker 2: so lending money attracts higher repayment, so that's expensive. We've

524
00:27:43,000 --> 00:27:46,080
Speaker 2: got an inquiry into rural banking. That's a particularly problematic

525
00:27:46,119 --> 00:27:49,440
Speaker 2: area where it's seen as higher risk, so it's expensive

526
00:27:49,480 --> 00:27:54,800
Speaker 2: to lend to the rural sector. So agricultural exporters are

527
00:27:54,800 --> 00:27:56,840
Speaker 2: sort of struggling to get the capital they need. Which

528
00:27:57,320 --> 00:28:01,280
Speaker 2: your approach to this, You obviously are a tech driven business,

529
00:28:01,280 --> 00:28:03,639
Speaker 2: You're investing a lot in your networks. How do you

530
00:28:03,680 --> 00:28:07,080
Speaker 2: make that case to your shareholders that we need to

531
00:28:07,119 --> 00:28:11,600
Speaker 2: invest for the future here, particularly around things like improving productivity,

532
00:28:11,640 --> 00:28:13,439
Speaker 2: which we have a real problem with in New Zealand.

533
00:28:13,880 --> 00:28:17,440
Speaker 3: Yeah, so first we've got incredibly supportive shareholders. We also

534
00:28:17,480 --> 00:28:20,080
Speaker 3: have the luxury that we are. We are a large

535
00:28:20,119 --> 00:28:23,600
Speaker 3: and growing organization, so with that comes the need to invest.

536
00:28:24,280 --> 00:28:26,280
Speaker 3: You know, you have to have supportive shareholders that have

537
00:28:26,400 --> 00:28:28,760
Speaker 3: to invest in growth. You need to know where to

538
00:28:28,920 --> 00:28:31,760
Speaker 3: invest that money most effectively, and in times like this

539
00:28:31,880 --> 00:28:34,679
Speaker 3: you do have to make trade offs. So you know,

540
00:28:34,720 --> 00:28:36,960
Speaker 3: from our perspective, it's making sure that we're investing in

541
00:28:36,960 --> 00:28:39,880
Speaker 3: the infrastructure. We're investing in our mobile towers, We're investing

542
00:28:39,920 --> 00:28:44,360
Speaker 3: in software, all things that enable the users of our

543
00:28:44,400 --> 00:28:46,680
Speaker 3: products and services to be more effective in the businesses

544
00:28:46,680 --> 00:28:49,320
Speaker 3: that they're trying to run and operate. So we're in

545
00:28:49,360 --> 00:28:52,000
Speaker 3: a fortunate position just given where we're at in terms

546
00:28:52,040 --> 00:28:55,080
Speaker 3: of our own business growth that you know, we do

547
00:28:55,120 --> 00:28:57,239
Speaker 3: have access to the capital we need based on our

548
00:28:57,280 --> 00:28:59,440
Speaker 3: growth plans, But our role is more around how do

549
00:28:59,480 --> 00:29:02,320
Speaker 3: we support our customers. How can they lean on us more,

550
00:29:02,400 --> 00:29:05,120
Speaker 3: How can they take the skills and learnings from us,

551
00:29:05,200 --> 00:29:07,640
Speaker 3: be it from an infrastructure, be it from an AI perspective.

552
00:29:08,160 --> 00:29:10,120
Speaker 3: It's really how we share that knowledge with our customers.

553
00:29:10,120 --> 00:29:11,360
Speaker 3: That's our primary focus.

554
00:29:11,600 --> 00:29:15,600
Speaker 2: We've got limited capital in New Zealand. Obviously, someone your

555
00:29:15,840 --> 00:29:18,640
Speaker 2: former colleagues in the National Party, you know, Judith Collins

556
00:29:18,680 --> 00:29:21,719
Speaker 2: and Tom McLay and that are really focused on growing

557
00:29:22,200 --> 00:29:27,760
Speaker 2: foreign direct investments in New Zealand. How's the best way

558
00:29:27,800 --> 00:29:29,920
Speaker 2: to go about that. How do you show the world,

559
00:29:29,960 --> 00:29:33,440
Speaker 2: particularly in this environment, with our infrastructure woes and the like,

560
00:29:33,480 --> 00:29:35,160
Speaker 2: that this is actually a good place to invest.

561
00:29:35,520 --> 00:29:37,720
Speaker 4: That's a great question, I think, you know, I think

562
00:29:37,720 --> 00:29:40,360
Speaker 4: I think with the end back, you know, some would say, well,

563
00:29:40,400 --> 00:29:43,640
Speaker 4: the answer is they should chuck a lot of money

564
00:29:43,640 --> 00:29:47,000
Speaker 4: into this fund, or they should you play around with

565
00:29:47,080 --> 00:29:49,680
Speaker 4: the key we saver settings and you know, see the

566
00:29:49,720 --> 00:29:53,800
Speaker 4: super Fund investing more in in New Zealand business, and

567
00:29:53,840 --> 00:29:55,760
Speaker 4: you know, these arguments to be made for those things.

568
00:29:55,840 --> 00:30:00,680
Speaker 4: I think though, you know, we probably mostly as you

569
00:30:00,720 --> 00:30:03,880
Speaker 4: know a business community, tend to accept that, you know,

570
00:30:04,120 --> 00:30:08,120
Speaker 4: capital is from the government perspective is scarce.

571
00:30:08,120 --> 00:30:09,800
Speaker 5: We've probably overdone it a bit in the.

572
00:30:09,880 --> 00:30:11,920
Speaker 4: Last few years to get through COVID and the like,

573
00:30:11,960 --> 00:30:14,840
Speaker 4: and now it's time for a bit of retrenchment. I

574
00:30:15,000 --> 00:30:18,160
Speaker 4: myself think actually there's answers to this capital question that

575
00:30:18,200 --> 00:30:20,880
Speaker 4: don't involve money. You know, they may involve and I'm

576
00:30:20,880 --> 00:30:23,600
Speaker 4: probably sorry from stealing around You're thunder, but I've heard

577
00:30:23,600 --> 00:30:26,000
Speaker 4: you on the banks, I think, and I think Victoria

578
00:30:26,280 --> 00:30:28,520
Speaker 4: who was with us earlier as well, it's a really

579
00:30:28,560 --> 00:30:30,360
Speaker 4: good point around around the banks.

580
00:30:30,480 --> 00:30:31,480
Speaker 5: Is it floating.

581
00:30:32,680 --> 00:30:36,360
Speaker 4: A Kiwi bank and letting that go free and do

582
00:30:36,480 --> 00:30:39,680
Speaker 4: more around business lending? And I think it's certainly something

583
00:30:39,760 --> 00:30:45,120
Speaker 4: that's in the coalition agreement. But overseas investment reform, you know,

584
00:30:45,160 --> 00:30:49,240
Speaker 4: I was had a presentation very recently. They're talking about

585
00:30:49,240 --> 00:30:51,880
Speaker 4: actually Hungary in the EU. You might not think a

586
00:30:51,880 --> 00:30:55,280
Speaker 4: lot about Hungary, but they last year had record overseas investment.

587
00:30:55,320 --> 00:30:58,440
Speaker 4: It was I think twelve thirteen billion New Zealand dollars.

588
00:30:59,560 --> 00:31:02,959
Speaker 4: But they've cut and pasted what Ireland has done and

589
00:31:03,080 --> 00:31:06,160
Speaker 4: you know, simplifying this grossly. It's a model. We're an

590
00:31:06,160 --> 00:31:09,400
Speaker 4: overseas investment. They're saying, heck, yes, we want this. We

591
00:31:09,480 --> 00:31:11,800
Speaker 4: celebrate every time we get it. I think in New

592
00:31:11,920 --> 00:31:15,120
Speaker 4: Zealand we've had a culture really in a regulatory regime

593
00:31:15,160 --> 00:31:16,800
Speaker 4: which has been kind of now it's a privilege for

594
00:31:16,840 --> 00:31:18,719
Speaker 4: you to come. We're not sure we want you, We're

595
00:31:18,720 --> 00:31:20,320
Speaker 4: going to put you through an obstacle course.

596
00:31:20,360 --> 00:31:21,520
Speaker 5: No, if we want more.

597
00:31:21,360 --> 00:31:25,400
Speaker 4: Two degrees, if we want more you know zeros, if

598
00:31:25,400 --> 00:31:28,240
Speaker 4: we want more rocket labs. We need that foreign capital

599
00:31:28,280 --> 00:31:32,040
Speaker 4: and so we I think regulatory reform and thinking outside

600
00:31:32,080 --> 00:31:34,800
Speaker 4: the box. You know, I mentioned, you know, floating in SOE.

601
00:31:35,800 --> 00:31:37,600
Speaker 4: I'd like to see more of that kind of thinking

602
00:31:37,600 --> 00:31:38,200
Speaker 4: from the government.

603
00:31:38,240 --> 00:31:40,040
Speaker 2: What about the laser was calls and the lead up

604
00:31:40,040 --> 00:31:42,720
Speaker 2: to the election from the tech community. Top up the

605
00:31:42,760 --> 00:31:45,440
Speaker 2: Elevate Fund, these sorts of venture funds that the government

606
00:31:45,920 --> 00:31:49,960
Speaker 2: co invests with venture capital companies. Performance of that hasn't

607
00:31:50,000 --> 00:31:52,520
Speaker 2: been necessarily great. But you know, this is high risk stuff.

608
00:31:52,520 --> 00:31:56,120
Speaker 2: Do we need to put more taxpayer dollars into seeding

609
00:31:56,120 --> 00:31:56,480
Speaker 2: the stuff?

610
00:31:56,600 --> 00:31:58,080
Speaker 4: I think there's given the argument for that. I mean

611
00:31:58,120 --> 00:32:00,280
Speaker 4: I do sit there and think something the government to

612
00:32:00,440 --> 00:32:02,040
Speaker 4: sort of be mindful of.

613
00:32:02,200 --> 00:32:05,760
Speaker 5: Is money wasted? Is money spent? Right? We talked about

614
00:32:05,760 --> 00:32:06,720
Speaker 5: so I think it's spending.

615
00:32:07,080 --> 00:32:13,960
Speaker 4: But money that goes into pro productive economic outcomes, that's investment, right,

616
00:32:14,000 --> 00:32:15,960
Speaker 4: So I think there is an aiment. I'm simply I

617
00:32:16,000 --> 00:32:19,520
Speaker 4: suppose acknowledging that in a time of economic restraint, there's

618
00:32:19,560 --> 00:32:22,400
Speaker 4: plenty of ours you can do that doesn't require money.

619
00:32:22,480 --> 00:32:27,160
Speaker 4: You know, there are regulatory answers that free us up,

620
00:32:27,520 --> 00:32:30,200
Speaker 4: open us up for business and in a neglutt of

621
00:32:30,320 --> 00:32:33,600
Speaker 4: global capital, bring some of it our way.

622
00:32:33,720 --> 00:32:38,000
Speaker 3: Over one hundred percent. There's frameworks, there's policies, there's it's

623
00:32:38,040 --> 00:32:39,640
Speaker 3: not money. I think a lot of things can be

624
00:32:39,640 --> 00:32:42,520
Speaker 3: solved without money. Again, as a large infrastructure build changes

625
00:32:42,520 --> 00:32:45,120
Speaker 3: to the RIMA, how does it make it more effective

626
00:32:45,960 --> 00:32:48,320
Speaker 3: for us, more cost effect of us to build the

627
00:32:48,360 --> 00:32:50,600
Speaker 3: infrastructure that New Zealand needs. That all flows through to

628
00:32:51,520 --> 00:32:53,200
Speaker 3: a New Zealand pockets at the end of the day.

629
00:32:53,240 --> 00:32:55,520
Speaker 4: So I said one of the things in the report

630
00:32:55,560 --> 00:32:58,680
Speaker 4: we did on a tech hub for Auckland. The other

631
00:32:58,760 --> 00:33:01,760
Speaker 4: cross theme was, as I said, infrastructure. You know, I

632
00:33:01,880 --> 00:33:04,960
Speaker 4: think you know people can over talk this, but I

633
00:33:05,000 --> 00:33:07,440
Speaker 4: do think we're seeing more data centers.

634
00:33:07,640 --> 00:33:11,360
Speaker 5: It's a trend that's going to continue. You know that

635
00:33:11,520 --> 00:33:11,960
Speaker 5: in the end.

636
00:33:11,960 --> 00:33:15,600
Speaker 4: Is going to require more energy infrastructure and you know

637
00:33:15,760 --> 00:33:21,000
Speaker 4: there's no need for government to be putting money into that. Actually,

638
00:33:21,080 --> 00:33:24,440
Speaker 4: get your regulatory settings right, give some confidence to that

639
00:33:24,480 --> 00:33:25,720
Speaker 4: sector and they'll.

640
00:33:25,440 --> 00:33:26,120
Speaker 5: Get on with it.

641
00:33:27,240 --> 00:33:30,360
Speaker 2: One area that doesn't necessarily require a lot of new

642
00:33:30,400 --> 00:33:33,720
Speaker 2: money to be invested in it as cybersecurity, and we

643
00:33:33,840 --> 00:33:37,600
Speaker 2: found in the study that it has slid down the

644
00:33:37,600 --> 00:33:41,120
Speaker 2: list as a priority for businesses. Is this because we've

645
00:33:41,280 --> 00:33:45,560
Speaker 2: become complacent about cybersecurity, which fundamentally is a cultural thing.

646
00:33:45,600 --> 00:33:49,800
Speaker 2: It's making sure that your people aren't being duped by

647
00:33:50,000 --> 00:33:52,200
Speaker 2: phishing attacks and the like. So it's as much about

648
00:33:52,400 --> 00:33:56,120
Speaker 2: behavior as it is about a new firewall or multi

649
00:33:56,120 --> 00:34:00,560
Speaker 2: factor authentication. But you've looked around the world. Deloutte does

650
00:34:00,560 --> 00:34:03,240
Speaker 2: a lot of work on cybersecurity. Are we out of

651
00:34:03,280 --> 00:34:04,800
Speaker 2: step with the rest of the world here in terms

652
00:34:04,800 --> 00:34:07,200
Speaker 2: of our preparedness on this issue?

653
00:34:07,640 --> 00:34:09,960
Speaker 6: Yeah, it was certainly interesting to see kind of, you know,

654
00:34:10,120 --> 00:34:13,040
Speaker 6: the results of the survey, and I think, you know,

655
00:34:13,400 --> 00:34:15,640
Speaker 6: we're there's a risk, I guess that we're kind of

656
00:34:15,640 --> 00:34:20,480
Speaker 6: falling behind in terms of our global cybersecurity, But I

657
00:34:20,520 --> 00:34:22,680
Speaker 6: still think it's still there as a topic. I think,

658
00:34:22,719 --> 00:34:25,160
Speaker 6: you know, potentially, you know, there's a lot of issues

659
00:34:25,200 --> 00:34:27,000
Speaker 6: going on in business at the moment, so it might

660
00:34:27,040 --> 00:34:29,080
Speaker 6: not have made its way to the top of the table,

661
00:34:29,080 --> 00:34:30,880
Speaker 6: but I think it's certainly still there and it's not

662
00:34:30,920 --> 00:34:34,000
Speaker 6: going away anywhere. I think I mentioned earlier that you know,

663
00:34:34,080 --> 00:34:36,759
Speaker 6: our cyber practice, I think it responded to sort of

664
00:34:36,800 --> 00:34:39,560
Speaker 6: over seven hundred I think cyber incidents in the last

665
00:34:39,560 --> 00:34:42,000
Speaker 6: few years, So it's very much still there. You know,

666
00:34:42,160 --> 00:34:45,200
Speaker 6: it's getting more sophisticated use of AI things like that,

667
00:34:45,239 --> 00:34:46,600
Speaker 6: so you're going to see it all the time. So

668
00:34:46,920 --> 00:34:48,560
Speaker 6: I think we need to be careful that, you know,

669
00:34:48,680 --> 00:34:51,440
Speaker 6: it doesn't disappear and you know, fall into that complacent

670
00:34:51,440 --> 00:34:52,560
Speaker 6: bucket that you mentioned.

671
00:34:53,920 --> 00:34:57,400
Speaker 3: Yeah, I think I think certain z released that. I

672
00:34:57,400 --> 00:34:59,480
Speaker 3: think cyber crime the last quarter was six point six

673
00:34:59,480 --> 00:35:01,600
Speaker 3: million in law, right, so it's here and it's real.

674
00:35:01,800 --> 00:35:02,080
Speaker 5: Yeah.

675
00:35:02,320 --> 00:35:04,560
Speaker 3: I think when I look at the survey again, it's

676
00:35:04,600 --> 00:35:07,560
Speaker 3: coming back to the size of the businesses asses. I

677
00:35:07,560 --> 00:35:12,879
Speaker 3: don't think there's complacency with larger enterprise. To me, our

678
00:35:12,920 --> 00:35:15,880
Speaker 3: business and businesses of similar size, it's are non negotiable.

679
00:35:16,840 --> 00:35:20,640
Speaker 3: It's part of being in business, and you know, cybersecurity

680
00:35:20,680 --> 00:35:24,680
Speaker 3: never sleeps. I think for smaller businesses sometimes they might

681
00:35:24,719 --> 00:35:27,440
Speaker 3: just be having to make a raality trade off between

682
00:35:27,560 --> 00:35:30,040
Speaker 3: risk and stay and in business. So again I think

683
00:35:30,040 --> 00:35:31,799
Speaker 3: the devil's in the detail on the ards from that,

684
00:35:31,840 --> 00:35:35,000
Speaker 3: but certainly at a large enterprise, I don't think complacency

685
00:35:35,080 --> 00:35:36,600
Speaker 3: slipping in a lot after the rest of the world.

686
00:35:36,640 --> 00:35:39,640
Speaker 2: Yeah, the respondents just nineteen percent said they were planning

687
00:35:39,680 --> 00:35:42,880
Speaker 2: to increase investments in security in the next twelve months,

688
00:35:42,920 --> 00:35:44,879
Speaker 2: but that would sort of makes sense if they're small

689
00:35:44,920 --> 00:35:48,360
Speaker 2: medium sized businesses. They've got other priorities, They've got wage

690
00:35:48,360 --> 00:35:53,120
Speaker 2: bills increasing, they've got supply costs increasing. Are they really

691
00:35:53,160 --> 00:35:55,840
Speaker 2: going to invest in a new cybersecurity system?

692
00:35:55,840 --> 00:35:57,279
Speaker 5: But for the big end of.

693
00:35:57,239 --> 00:36:00,560
Speaker 2: Town obviously we want to avoid, as asked to, like

694
00:36:00,560 --> 00:36:04,040
Speaker 2: an optics data breach or a medibank or something. Here.

695
00:36:04,880 --> 00:36:07,960
Speaker 2: I was surprised not to see at least some investment

696
00:36:07,960 --> 00:36:11,560
Speaker 2: in cybersecurity in the budget. It was just token amount

697
00:36:11,560 --> 00:36:13,879
Speaker 2: of money compared to what Australia has put in. Are

698
00:36:13,880 --> 00:36:17,120
Speaker 2: you really sort of happy with the malware free network

699
00:36:17,120 --> 00:36:19,880
Speaker 2: the sort of stuff that the government is doing in

700
00:36:19,880 --> 00:36:24,040
Speaker 2: this space to help critical infrastructure including telecommunications provided.

701
00:36:24,400 --> 00:36:27,160
Speaker 3: Yeah, it's a good question. I suppose we've taken that

702
00:36:27,200 --> 00:36:32,000
Speaker 3: responsibility on ourselves. So you know, our security investment increases

703
00:36:32,040 --> 00:36:38,080
Speaker 3: every year, the focus, the resource, the technology. You know,

704
00:36:38,120 --> 00:36:40,080
Speaker 3: we have a very large and active team that look

705
00:36:40,120 --> 00:36:42,319
Speaker 3: at this the entire time. It was a really good

706
00:36:42,360 --> 00:36:46,239
Speaker 3: collaborations across the business and globally as well. So again

707
00:36:46,280 --> 00:36:49,480
Speaker 3: I come back to organizations such as ourselves certainly not

708
00:36:49,520 --> 00:36:51,879
Speaker 3: complacent about this. We're investing more and more every year.

709
00:36:52,640 --> 00:36:55,840
Speaker 3: Boards are obviously very sensitive to it from both a

710
00:36:55,920 --> 00:37:00,160
Speaker 3: privacy and a cybersecurity perspective, and like I say, key

711
00:37:00,200 --> 00:37:04,600
Speaker 3: aspect of running any large, big telecommunications business. So again

712
00:37:04,640 --> 00:37:06,279
Speaker 3: we're not seeing any slow down from our.

713
00:37:06,160 --> 00:37:07,240
Speaker 5: Perspective, Simon.

714
00:37:07,440 --> 00:37:11,960
Speaker 2: Are the incentives right on this issue? We've seen, for instance,

715
00:37:12,000 --> 00:37:16,680
Speaker 2: the Institute of Directors surveys this has decreased down the

716
00:37:16,719 --> 00:37:21,240
Speaker 2: list as a as a priority. We have a privacy

717
00:37:21,239 --> 00:37:23,960
Speaker 2: actor is very weak. It's been criticized at ten thousand dollars.

718
00:37:23,960 --> 00:37:26,279
Speaker 2: Fine if you have a data breach. There's no sort

719
00:37:26,280 --> 00:37:29,880
Speaker 2: of really strong criminal penalties as there are in Australia

720
00:37:29,880 --> 00:37:33,040
Speaker 2: and a huge finds fifty million dollar fines following the

721
00:37:33,080 --> 00:37:36,879
Speaker 2: OPTIS breach to the legislation was changed. Do we need

722
00:37:36,920 --> 00:37:42,880
Speaker 2: to give more teeth to legislation, to regulation to encourage

723
00:37:42,880 --> 00:37:44,000
Speaker 2: good behavior in the space.

724
00:37:44,200 --> 00:37:44,560
Speaker 5: I think so.

725
00:37:44,920 --> 00:37:47,040
Speaker 4: I think just I was really interested what Mark said,

726
00:37:47,080 --> 00:37:49,359
Speaker 4: you know, and I totally agree with it. Someone who's

727
00:37:49,400 --> 00:37:51,879
Speaker 4: been involved in certain z in the past. There's sixty

728
00:37:51,880 --> 00:37:55,319
Speaker 4: seven million dollars. Look really is it'll be triple that, right,

729
00:37:55,400 --> 00:37:58,360
Speaker 4: you know, that's just what's reported. But they'll behave of

730
00:37:58,480 --> 00:38:00,760
Speaker 4: businesses who are like hiya we've just ad our system

731
00:38:00,800 --> 00:38:04,239
Speaker 4: shut down for a few days, you know, but then

732
00:38:04,400 --> 00:38:07,560
Speaker 4: and not reporting that to certains end. So you know,

733
00:38:07,560 --> 00:38:09,359
Speaker 4: I also agree with what Mark's saying, and I think

734
00:38:09,360 --> 00:38:11,920
Speaker 4: we all would that that you know, you probably got this.

735
00:38:12,440 --> 00:38:17,200
Speaker 4: At the risk of being simplistic, big bigger businesses absolutely

736
00:38:17,280 --> 00:38:19,200
Speaker 4: get it. They are focused on it, they are doing

737
00:38:19,200 --> 00:38:21,560
Speaker 4: the right things. And the smaller guys here they've got

738
00:38:21,560 --> 00:38:24,960
Speaker 4: all these existential problems around, you know, paying their bills

739
00:38:25,000 --> 00:38:25,360
Speaker 4: and so on.

740
00:38:25,480 --> 00:38:27,600
Speaker 5: Is there at that at that that that level. But

741
00:38:27,719 --> 00:38:28,640
Speaker 5: if if you're not.

742
00:38:28,640 --> 00:38:31,920
Speaker 4: Interested in cybersecurity, it's still interested in you and and

743
00:38:32,000 --> 00:38:34,960
Speaker 4: clever people in ais finding you know, multiple ways to

744
00:38:35,000 --> 00:38:37,680
Speaker 4: deal with that. To give you a simple answer to

745
00:38:37,719 --> 00:38:40,520
Speaker 4: your question, I think it was news to me, but

746
00:38:40,640 --> 00:38:44,520
Speaker 4: relatively recently and reading some other work, you know, it

747
00:38:44,640 --> 00:38:48,759
Speaker 4: became clear to me we fundamentally, outside of basic privacy law,

748
00:38:49,320 --> 00:38:52,720
Speaker 4: do not have a regime in New Zealand around cybersecurity.

749
00:38:53,560 --> 00:38:55,960
Speaker 4: I'm sure at a level is on the agenda, but

750
00:38:56,040 --> 00:38:58,880
Speaker 4: that should be must be a priority for the government.

751
00:38:58,920 --> 00:39:01,759
Speaker 4: Exactly what that looks like, looks smarter people than me

752
00:39:01,880 --> 00:39:05,000
Speaker 4: can can work that, bet. I think that's that regulatory

753
00:39:05,040 --> 00:39:08,800
Speaker 4: regime for New Zealand cybersecurity to enable business to to

754
00:39:09,360 --> 00:39:12,120
Speaker 4: to to move into this and know that the landscape

755
00:39:12,160 --> 00:39:14,680
Speaker 4: they're working is important. And I think just the second one,

756
00:39:14,880 --> 00:39:16,600
Speaker 4: I always feel it's a bit twee. You know, it's

757
00:39:16,680 --> 00:39:18,520
Speaker 4: kind of like education is the answer to everything. But

758
00:39:18,560 --> 00:39:21,840
Speaker 4: I do think in cyber security that is an important

759
00:39:22,440 --> 00:39:27,759
Speaker 4: salient point for SMS. It's just ongoing education. I know

760
00:39:27,800 --> 00:39:30,160
Speaker 4: we are now, you know, you know, we're we're not

761
00:39:30,280 --> 00:39:33,520
Speaker 4: nest were probably an m a medium sized business at

762
00:39:33,520 --> 00:39:36,880
Speaker 4: the Auckland Business Chamber. We've now done several kind of

763
00:39:36,880 --> 00:39:42,120
Speaker 4: of these fishing et cetera tests on our staff. You know,

764
00:39:42,280 --> 00:39:45,720
Speaker 4: of seventy eighty staff, there's always been two or three

765
00:39:45,800 --> 00:39:49,080
Speaker 4: who fail, and they're the same two or three and

766
00:39:49,160 --> 00:39:51,759
Speaker 4: I may be one of them. No I'm not, And

767
00:39:52,200 --> 00:39:54,400
Speaker 4: so you know, we just got to keep at that.

768
00:39:55,000 --> 00:39:58,640
Speaker 6: I think that common sense and skepticism skepticism, sorry, but

769
00:39:58,880 --> 00:40:01,440
Speaker 6: is really important. So I think, you know, and that

770
00:40:01,640 --> 00:40:05,520
Speaker 6: testing as well. You know, I saw a survey recently

771
00:40:05,560 --> 00:40:07,600
Speaker 6: we're kind of I think eighty percent of businesses said

772
00:40:07,640 --> 00:40:10,719
Speaker 6: that they had some sort of you know, cyber risk policy,

773
00:40:11,200 --> 00:40:13,480
Speaker 6: but only about twenty percent of them or something like

774
00:40:13,520 --> 00:40:15,880
Speaker 6: that had actually ever tested it. So I think you

775
00:40:15,880 --> 00:40:16,680
Speaker 6: know what you're doing.

776
00:40:16,719 --> 00:40:19,279
Speaker 4: And actually I'm tough to be slightly ahead of where

777
00:40:19,320 --> 00:40:21,600
Speaker 4: some others might be. I don't think we're good enough,

778
00:40:21,640 --> 00:40:24,319
Speaker 4: but yeah, I mean I think it gets me is

779
00:40:24,480 --> 00:40:26,319
Speaker 4: you know, I think the example of the last sort

780
00:40:26,320 --> 00:40:28,640
Speaker 4: of year, probably I can't remember exactly what it was,

781
00:40:28,680 --> 00:40:30,759
Speaker 4: but in New Zealand, which just shows you, you know,

782
00:40:31,080 --> 00:40:34,960
Speaker 4: how clever and naughty this stuff can be, and put

783
00:40:35,000 --> 00:40:38,160
Speaker 4: it like that is is the nick Maybray, you know,

784
00:40:38,280 --> 00:40:41,160
Speaker 4: deep fake you know on a zoom was something with

785
00:40:41,280 --> 00:40:41,799
Speaker 4: you know, one of.

786
00:40:41,719 --> 00:40:42,880
Speaker 5: His key staff members.

787
00:40:42,880 --> 00:40:45,840
Speaker 4: There he is telling them to transfer the money, except

788
00:40:45,840 --> 00:40:49,080
Speaker 4: it wasn't him, right and you know, kudofs to the

789
00:40:49,120 --> 00:40:51,920
Speaker 4: guy who didn't sort of fall for that, but just

790
00:40:51,920 --> 00:40:54,200
Speaker 4: shows you how on your game business needs to be.

791
00:40:54,280 --> 00:40:56,640
Speaker 5: That could have been something with significant consequences.

792
00:40:56,880 --> 00:40:58,920
Speaker 3: I think the other slight gender reminder for any business

793
00:40:59,160 --> 00:41:01,600
Speaker 3: is this the direct cost, which is your corporate reputation

794
00:41:01,640 --> 00:41:04,520
Speaker 3: as well. So there is the penalties, there is what

795
00:41:04,640 --> 00:41:07,360
Speaker 3: government can do, et cetera. But fundamentally, your corporate reputation

796
00:41:07,440 --> 00:41:09,000
Speaker 3: is probably the most vailable ass that you've got. So

797
00:41:09,120 --> 00:41:11,040
Speaker 3: that's that's a natural incentive to make sure you're not

798
00:41:11,080 --> 00:41:12,200
Speaker 3: under investing in this area.

799
00:41:12,680 --> 00:41:16,000
Speaker 2: Okay, just to wrap up, there was a real note

800
00:41:16,000 --> 00:41:21,839
Speaker 2: of optimism in the survey. The businesses that were optimistic said,

801
00:41:22,120 --> 00:41:25,520
Speaker 2: we see revenue growing, we see growth in the next year.

802
00:41:25,719 --> 00:41:27,320
Speaker 2: So that is a good thing and a bit of

803
00:41:27,360 --> 00:41:30,560
Speaker 2: a contrast to the media narrative maybe around the state

804
00:41:30,600 --> 00:41:32,880
Speaker 2: of the economy and the nation. Interesting if we can

805
00:41:32,920 --> 00:41:35,600
Speaker 2: just finish off from each of you, mark, what gives

806
00:41:35,640 --> 00:41:39,480
Speaker 2: you real hope and optimism in your business when you

807
00:41:39,520 --> 00:41:42,200
Speaker 2: look at where two degrees is going tough time with

808
00:41:42,440 --> 00:41:46,279
Speaker 2: pressure on household span and business spend as well, where

809
00:41:46,360 --> 00:41:49,320
Speaker 2: is the growth going to come from and what's the

810
00:41:49,360 --> 00:41:50,200
Speaker 2: opportunity for you?

811
00:41:50,719 --> 00:41:54,440
Speaker 3: Yes, so again Telco is not immune to a tightening economy,

812
00:41:54,520 --> 00:41:56,760
Speaker 3: so you know we will see toughness around household spending,

813
00:41:57,640 --> 00:42:00,759
Speaker 3: et cetera. But fundamentally two Degrees is a business, so

814
00:42:01,320 --> 00:42:04,239
Speaker 3: you know we're a challenge of business. Ironically, we thrive

815
00:42:04,360 --> 00:42:07,560
Speaker 3: through tier economic times because that's when businesses are looking

816
00:42:07,640 --> 00:42:14,120
Speaker 3: for you know, better value options, lower priced and help

817
00:42:14,200 --> 00:42:18,080
Speaker 3: and software improve productivity. So we're incredibly well positioned across

818
00:42:18,120 --> 00:42:21,440
Speaker 3: all market segments where I get my inspiration, though it

819
00:42:21,480 --> 00:42:23,520
Speaker 3: was more speaking about customers. There are so many great

820
00:42:23,560 --> 00:42:26,480
Speaker 3: customers out there that are doing really good things. And

821
00:42:26,560 --> 00:42:28,719
Speaker 3: after the event I had the pleasure of speaking to

822
00:42:28,719 --> 00:42:30,560
Speaker 3: a couple of them that were nearly a little bit

823
00:42:30,600 --> 00:42:33,279
Speaker 3: embarrassed about, you know, how well business is going and

824
00:42:33,320 --> 00:42:36,560
Speaker 3: the opportunities. And again I'm always glass halful sort of

825
00:42:36,560 --> 00:42:38,600
Speaker 3: a guy with a strong growth mindset. You just need

826
00:42:38,600 --> 00:42:41,439
Speaker 3: to embrace and surround yourself with people like that because

827
00:42:41,480 --> 00:42:43,919
Speaker 3: I think positive talk and positive edgy goes a really

828
00:42:43,960 --> 00:42:45,200
Speaker 3: long way in tight times.

829
00:42:45,360 --> 00:42:48,720
Speaker 2: Yeah, and you're working with private clients, you know, wealthy

830
00:42:49,040 --> 00:42:52,200
Speaker 2: families and the like who are looking to invest. What

831
00:42:52,239 --> 00:42:55,200
Speaker 2: are you seeing from them in terms of their outlook

832
00:42:55,280 --> 00:42:56,560
Speaker 2: and their level of optimism?

833
00:42:57,040 --> 00:42:59,799
Speaker 6: Yeah, well, I think there's no doubt that in tough

834
00:42:59,800 --> 00:43:03,080
Speaker 6: times our clients you lean on their advisors like Deloitte.

835
00:43:03,200 --> 00:43:05,640
Speaker 6: But I think the really great thing is is that

836
00:43:05,680 --> 00:43:07,799
Speaker 6: we also, you know, similar to what Mark was saying,

837
00:43:07,840 --> 00:43:10,000
Speaker 6: we work with a lot of really awesome New Zealand

838
00:43:10,080 --> 00:43:12,759
Speaker 6: businesses in the private space in the SEME market, so

839
00:43:13,200 --> 00:43:15,840
Speaker 6: you know a lot of them, you know, pushing the

840
00:43:15,880 --> 00:43:19,120
Speaker 6: brand off shore, you know, growing, you know, phenomenally, there's

841
00:43:19,160 --> 00:43:21,279
Speaker 6: lots of exciting stuff out there, and I think we've

842
00:43:21,280 --> 00:43:23,840
Speaker 6: really got to celebrate that, you know, get on board

843
00:43:23,840 --> 00:43:25,600
Speaker 6: with it and do what we can to help them

844
00:43:25,880 --> 00:43:26,760
Speaker 6: achieve the goals.

845
00:43:27,200 --> 00:43:30,919
Speaker 2: Yeah, and Simon your cohort of members in Auckland, which

846
00:43:30,960 --> 00:43:33,080
Speaker 2: is the heart of business in New Zealand.

847
00:43:33,560 --> 00:43:36,120
Speaker 4: Look at Acknowledging some business doing it hard. But you know,

848
00:43:36,200 --> 00:43:38,600
Speaker 4: Mark and then are both made great. Put me some

849
00:43:38,680 --> 00:43:41,400
Speaker 4: of the businesses I talked to and with them one recently.

850
00:43:41,840 --> 00:43:44,279
Speaker 4: You know, the viewers, there's no recession and we're going

851
00:43:44,320 --> 00:43:47,560
Speaker 4: at it and they are in full bore expense Benson

852
00:43:47,640 --> 00:43:49,840
Speaker 4: mode and they are you know, they're a medium sized

853
00:43:49,880 --> 00:43:51,680
Speaker 4: business and they've got a great story to tell and

854
00:43:51,680 --> 00:43:54,640
Speaker 4: there's plenty like that. For myself, I sit there and say, look,

855
00:43:54,800 --> 00:43:58,680
Speaker 4: it's sort of the simple level and it's not to

856
00:43:58,680 --> 00:44:01,040
Speaker 4: put too much pressure on. But the moment Adrian all

857
00:44:01,120 --> 00:44:03,960
Speaker 4: reduces the official cash rate, I just think we will

858
00:44:03,960 --> 00:44:05,399
Speaker 4: see confidence switch back on.

859
00:44:05,960 --> 00:44:09,360
Speaker 5: And you know, I look at Auckland. I'm very focused.

860
00:44:10,239 --> 00:44:13,120
Speaker 4: Obviously it's in the name Auckland Business Chamber, but on Auckland,

861
00:44:13,360 --> 00:44:17,000
Speaker 4: and you know, I see a convention center coming. We

862
00:44:17,000 --> 00:44:20,719
Speaker 4: shouldn't underestimate that that started next year. That's thousands more

863
00:44:20,760 --> 00:44:24,800
Speaker 4: people in the city every week. Is a real beneficial effect.

864
00:44:25,280 --> 00:44:29,360
Speaker 4: International education coming back quite strongly. The likes of a

865
00:44:29,400 --> 00:44:32,200
Speaker 4: Coral a year or so later, which I do think

866
00:44:32,920 --> 00:44:35,839
Speaker 4: you will be a game changer. It actually just at

867
00:44:35,840 --> 00:44:40,600
Speaker 4: a level make us feel like an international city. I

868
00:44:40,600 --> 00:44:42,160
Speaker 4: could keep going on, but I suppose what I'm just

869
00:44:42,160 --> 00:44:44,319
Speaker 4: saying is I don't think is rose tinted glasses. I

870
00:44:44,400 --> 00:44:47,680
Speaker 4: just think actually, if you, if you take a reasonably sober,

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00:44:47,760 --> 00:44:53,319
Speaker 4: objective assessment of things, we're in a period it's absolutely

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00:44:53,600 --> 00:44:56,200
Speaker 4: in twenty five going to get better. Twenty six will

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00:44:56,200 --> 00:45:00,160
Speaker 4: be better than twenty five. I feel very confident about.

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00:44:59,880 --> 00:45:02,439
Speaker 2: That good and it's sort of the theme that's coming

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00:45:02,440 --> 00:45:05,600
Speaker 2: through when you went out Mark to talk to these businesses.

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00:45:05,600 --> 00:45:08,480
Speaker 2: So that's great to see. Thanks so much the three

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00:45:08,480 --> 00:45:11,520
Speaker 2: of you for being on, Simon and Mark. And there's

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00:45:11,600 --> 00:45:14,920
Speaker 2: so much more detail in this study and really interesting

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00:45:14,960 --> 00:45:17,360
Speaker 2: to compare over the past five years as well, and

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00:45:17,400 --> 00:45:19,359
Speaker 2: some of that analysis has been done as well, So

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00:45:19,640 --> 00:45:22,560
Speaker 2: encourage everyone to download it. The copies available at two degrees.

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00:45:22,600 --> 00:45:24,759
Speaker 2: We'll have all the info and the show notes and

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00:45:24,800 --> 00:45:25,840
Speaker 2: on the two degrees website.

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00:45:25,880 --> 00:45:26,160
Speaker 3: As well.

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00:45:26,320 --> 00:45:27,680
Speaker 2: Thanks so much for coming on the show.

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00:45:28,120 --> 00:45:28,960
Speaker 5: Thanks that.

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00:45:32,880 --> 00:45:35,200
Speaker 2: So that's it for the Business of Tech this week.

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00:45:35,280 --> 00:45:37,920
Speaker 2: Thanks so much to our panels, Simon Bridges and I

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00:45:38,000 --> 00:45:39,880
Speaker 2: Fitzgibbon and Mark Calendar.

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Speaker 1: The Two Degrees Business Study for twenty twenty four is

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00:45:43,080 --> 00:45:45,480
Speaker 1: out now. You'll find it at two degrees, dot co,

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00:45:45,960 --> 00:45:48,560
Speaker 1: dot and z and it is brimming with lots of

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00:45:48,680 --> 00:45:51,759
Speaker 1: interesting graphs and detail we just didn't have time for

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00:45:51,840 --> 00:45:54,680
Speaker 1: in the discussion, so make sure to download your copy.

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00:45:54,760 --> 00:45:58,600
Speaker 2: The Business of Tech is on all major podcast platforms

896
00:45:58,600 --> 00:46:01,960
Speaker 2: as well as iHeartRadio and stream every episode. Leave us

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00:46:02,000 --> 00:46:04,719
Speaker 2: a review and share it with your friends and colleagues.

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00:46:05,200 --> 00:46:08,520
Speaker 1: Get in touch with feedback, ideas, topics and guest suggestions.

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00:46:08,760 --> 00:46:11,560
Speaker 1: You can email me on bend at business Desk, dot co,

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00:46:11,719 --> 00:46:14,560
Speaker 1: dot and z. We'll find both of us on LinkedIn

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00:46:14,920 --> 00:46:16,120
Speaker 1: and occasionally acts.

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00:46:16,239 --> 00:46:19,200
Speaker 2: We'll be back next Thursday with another dose of the

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00:46:19,280 --> 00:46:20,120
Speaker 2: Business of Tech.

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Speaker 1: Cat you next time.