1 00:00:00,120 --> 00:00:03,880 Speaker 1: The government's announced an overhaul of seven Crown Research institutes. 2 00:00:04,080 --> 00:00:07,200 Speaker 1: They'll be merged into three public research organizations and a 3 00:00:07,240 --> 00:00:10,240 Speaker 1: fourth PROS will be established to focus on advanced technology. 4 00:00:10,680 --> 00:00:13,680 Speaker 1: Government agency Callahan Innovation will shut down as part of 5 00:00:13,720 --> 00:00:17,439 Speaker 1: the reforms. Using The Association of Scientists co president, doctor 6 00:00:17,520 --> 00:00:20,200 Speaker 1: Lucy Stewart joins me. Now, thanks for your time, Lucy. 7 00:00:21,440 --> 00:00:22,120 Speaker 2: Good to be here. 8 00:00:22,720 --> 00:00:23,560 Speaker 1: Is this a good idea? 9 00:00:25,000 --> 00:00:28,319 Speaker 2: So broadly speaking, the idea of merging the ciris is 10 00:00:28,320 --> 00:00:30,639 Speaker 2: a good idea. People have known for a really long 11 00:00:30,680 --> 00:00:34,320 Speaker 2: time that the is really unhealthy competition between the curs 12 00:00:34,400 --> 00:00:38,080 Speaker 2: because they kind of have commercial requirements to make money 13 00:00:38,159 --> 00:00:40,559 Speaker 2: and they have some mobile apps, so they've been competing 14 00:00:40,600 --> 00:00:44,680 Speaker 2: for resources. So I think this will be beneficial in disregard. However, 15 00:00:45,000 --> 00:00:47,839 Speaker 2: without knowing you know, quite a lot more detail, this 16 00:00:47,880 --> 00:00:51,800 Speaker 2: could just end up being shuffling the deckcha on the Titanic, 17 00:00:51,840 --> 00:00:53,760 Speaker 2: given the state the science system is currently in. 18 00:00:54,240 --> 00:00:57,720 Speaker 1: Right, so potentially bitter value for money, but we're not 19 00:00:57,920 --> 00:01:00,840 Speaker 1: entirely sure what you might get out of it. 20 00:01:01,800 --> 00:01:04,200 Speaker 2: Well, that is the funny thing I want to focus on, 21 00:01:04,240 --> 00:01:06,280 Speaker 2: because that's something that came up a lot in the 22 00:01:06,319 --> 00:01:10,240 Speaker 2: government's announcement, but the reality is and so Peter Blackman's 23 00:01:10,240 --> 00:01:13,759 Speaker 2: report that was released yesterday emphasizes this. Our science system 24 00:01:13,840 --> 00:01:17,560 Speaker 2: has been desperately underfunded for thirty or forty years now. 25 00:01:17,880 --> 00:01:19,720 Speaker 2: So the idea that we're going to have sort of 26 00:01:19,840 --> 00:01:22,520 Speaker 2: champagne science on to be a budget by just you know, 27 00:01:22,640 --> 00:01:25,560 Speaker 2: merging some organizations to get better value for money is 28 00:01:25,600 --> 00:01:26,839 Speaker 2: not particularly realistic. 29 00:01:28,080 --> 00:01:30,920 Speaker 1: What were these seven institutes doing that were so valuable? 30 00:01:32,000 --> 00:01:35,040 Speaker 2: So these seven and students do a range of science. 31 00:01:35,800 --> 00:01:38,759 Speaker 2: You've got Genius for example, does earth science, so they're 32 00:01:38,800 --> 00:01:42,920 Speaker 2: studying things like you know, earthquakes and tsunamis. You've got 33 00:01:42,959 --> 00:01:49,920 Speaker 2: kneewhere doing marine science. Scion look at forestry, ag research 34 00:01:49,960 --> 00:01:53,559 Speaker 2: and plant and food are both looking at sort of productions, 35 00:01:53,560 --> 00:01:56,000 Speaker 2: so a research and more focused on pastoral and clime 36 00:01:56,080 --> 00:01:59,080 Speaker 2: and food and more focused on you know, plants and foods, 37 00:01:59,160 --> 00:02:01,920 Speaker 2: aut culture and that all of them are doing a 38 00:02:02,000 --> 00:02:06,160 Speaker 2: range of science between stuff that's commercial, you know, commercially 39 00:02:06,200 --> 00:02:09,000 Speaker 2: valuable for industries we have in New Zealand and also 40 00:02:09,120 --> 00:02:12,720 Speaker 2: public good science. So that's science where you know it 41 00:02:12,800 --> 00:02:16,400 Speaker 2: doesn't necessarily creative products you can sell, but we still 42 00:02:16,520 --> 00:02:20,079 Speaker 2: need to do it for the benefit of our country. 43 00:02:20,400 --> 00:02:23,480 Speaker 2: So if you think particularly about stuff like natural disasters, 44 00:02:24,120 --> 00:02:28,000 Speaker 2: studying natural disasters doesn't necessarily create a product you can sell, 45 00:02:28,280 --> 00:02:31,520 Speaker 2: but it gives this information that's really important in reducing 46 00:02:31,520 --> 00:02:34,079 Speaker 2: our risks so that when there is a natural disaster 47 00:02:34,680 --> 00:02:36,640 Speaker 2: there's less damage and less loss of life. 48 00:02:36,720 --> 00:02:39,120 Speaker 1: So, Lucy, you're concerned that there's too much of a 49 00:02:39,760 --> 00:02:43,280 Speaker 1: sort of a focus on the commercial benefits and the 50 00:02:43,320 --> 00:02:47,200 Speaker 1: commercializations of science and technology rather than that you know, 51 00:02:47,280 --> 00:02:49,760 Speaker 1: providing good public public goods science. 52 00:02:50,960 --> 00:02:52,800 Speaker 2: Yeah, you have to have a balance. So I think 53 00:02:52,840 --> 00:02:55,200 Speaker 2: Sir Peter Gleigman's report is that, you know, it's really 54 00:02:55,200 --> 00:02:58,280 Speaker 2: well considered and it kind of establishes there's four different 55 00:02:58,720 --> 00:03:03,440 Speaker 2: main areas of government funded science. There's public good science, 56 00:03:03,480 --> 00:03:07,880 Speaker 2: like we'll discuss, there's science that you know, just generates knowledge, 57 00:03:08,280 --> 00:03:11,080 Speaker 2: and that science where we don't you know, really know 58 00:03:11,120 --> 00:03:15,080 Speaker 2: what it's going to do, but having that knowledge leads 59 00:03:15,080 --> 00:03:18,920 Speaker 2: to ideas that turn into public good science or commercial 60 00:03:18,919 --> 00:03:21,840 Speaker 2: science down the line. And you also have science which 61 00:03:21,880 --> 00:03:24,760 Speaker 2: is directly informing policy. So that's when the government kind 62 00:03:24,760 --> 00:03:27,720 Speaker 2: of knows things that's doing and they need they need 63 00:03:27,760 --> 00:03:31,840 Speaker 2: work done to support the policy work they're doing. So 64 00:03:31,880 --> 00:03:36,520 Speaker 2: that's four different areas of science, and this announcement focuses 65 00:03:36,720 --> 00:03:40,120 Speaker 2: entirely on the last one, the commercial or is the 66 00:03:40,240 --> 00:03:43,400 Speaker 2: report called it exploitable science, and it really feels like 67 00:03:43,480 --> 00:03:45,560 Speaker 2: it's at the expense of the other three. But they're 68 00:03:45,600 --> 00:03:46,880 Speaker 2: all important and valuable. 69 00:03:47,080 --> 00:03:50,520 Speaker 1: Okay, so will we still produce quality science this way? 70 00:03:51,640 --> 00:03:54,440 Speaker 2: We will produce quality science this way if we are 71 00:03:54,480 --> 00:03:58,520 Speaker 2: focused on growing a well funded science system that supports 72 00:03:58,800 --> 00:04:02,120 Speaker 2: good scientists to do their work. And what we know 73 00:04:02,360 --> 00:04:04,760 Speaker 2: is that over the last year we've lost around five 74 00:04:04,840 --> 00:04:08,280 Speaker 2: hundred jobs from the government science system. So really I'm 75 00:04:08,320 --> 00:04:11,480 Speaker 2: kind of really surprised to see the government in this announcement. 76 00:04:11,520 --> 00:04:14,160 Speaker 2: They're saying things like, you want to attract skilled people 77 00:04:14,200 --> 00:04:16,800 Speaker 2: to New Zealand. Well, if we could stop making skilled 78 00:04:16,800 --> 00:04:19,359 Speaker 2: people redundant and having them leave New Zealand first, that 79 00:04:19,400 --> 00:04:20,760 Speaker 2: would be a fantastic start. 80 00:04:21,720 --> 00:04:24,680 Speaker 1: Doctor Lucy Stewart, thanks for your thoughts this moment. For 81 00:04:24,760 --> 00:04:27,760 Speaker 1: more from Early Edition with Ryan Bridge, listen live to 82 00:04:27,880 --> 00:04:31,039 Speaker 1: News Talks at b from five am weekdays, or follow 83 00:04:31,080 --> 00:04:32,680 Speaker 1: the podcast on iHeartRadio.