1 00:00:19,059 --> 00:00:22,139 Speaker 1: Kyota at Chelsea Daniels here, host of the Front Page. 2 00:00:22,379 --> 00:00:25,299 Speaker 1: We're taking away breakover summer, but to help build the gap, 3 00:00:25,579 --> 00:00:28,699 Speaker 1: we're re issuing some of our most significant episodes of 4 00:00:28,739 --> 00:00:32,019 Speaker 1: twenty twenty five on behalf of the Front Page team. 5 00:00:32,138 --> 00:00:34,619 Speaker 1: Thanks for listening and we look forward to being back 6 00:00:34,659 --> 00:00:44,099 Speaker 1: with you on January twelfth, twenty twenty six. Kyota, I'm 7 00:00:44,179 --> 00:00:47,459 Speaker 1: Chelsea Daniels and this is the Front Page, a daily 8 00:00:47,579 --> 00:00:54,899 Speaker 1: podcast presented by the New Zealand Herald. There are more 9 00:00:55,019 --> 00:00:59,579 Speaker 1: than nine thousand gang members in New Zealand and thousands 10 00:00:59,619 --> 00:01:03,619 Speaker 1: more associates. The Coalition government from the get go promised 11 00:01:03,659 --> 00:01:07,459 Speaker 1: a crackdown on gangs that banned gang insignior and public, 12 00:01:07,779 --> 00:01:12,859 Speaker 1: handed police greater powers, and created laws to disrupt get togethers. 13 00:01:12,938 --> 00:01:14,579 Speaker 2: But is that all enough? 14 00:01:15,459 --> 00:01:18,139 Speaker 1: Jared Savage has been a journalist at the New Zealand 15 00:01:18,179 --> 00:01:20,859 Speaker 1: Herald for a bit twenty years, with a focus on 16 00:01:21,139 --> 00:01:25,659 Speaker 1: organized crime. His latest book, Underworld, is the third in 17 00:01:25,699 --> 00:01:29,619 Speaker 1: a series he's released since twenty twenty, and the latest 18 00:01:29,658 --> 00:01:36,739 Speaker 1: installment delves deeper into our country's dark underbelly of gangs, guns, drugs, 19 00:01:36,779 --> 00:01:41,379 Speaker 1: and money, lots and lots of money. Today on the 20 00:01:41,419 --> 00:01:45,819 Speaker 1: front page, Savage joins us to discuss the rising threat of. 21 00:01:45,899 --> 00:01:48,059 Speaker 2: Organized crime in New Zealand. 22 00:01:52,779 --> 00:01:55,979 Speaker 1: So Jared, it's not a giveaway, I reckon when I 23 00:01:56,019 --> 00:02:00,459 Speaker 1: say your latest read starts by saying the situation is 24 00:02:00,779 --> 00:02:05,059 Speaker 1: now even more dangerous and the stakes are higher, and 25 00:02:05,099 --> 00:02:07,219 Speaker 1: that it's life and death out there. 26 00:02:07,419 --> 00:02:10,099 Speaker 2: Can you tell me how things have escalated? 27 00:02:10,699 --> 00:02:15,819 Speaker 3: Well, I think that comes down to, first and foremost, 28 00:02:15,979 --> 00:02:19,538 Speaker 3: the huge amounts of drugs which are coming into country. 29 00:02:19,939 --> 00:02:21,739 Speaker 3: When I first started reporting to the hero on this 30 00:02:21,859 --> 00:02:24,739 Speaker 3: sort of fifteen nine years ago, you know, one kilo 31 00:02:24,819 --> 00:02:27,539 Speaker 3: of meath was a big deal and it was a 32 00:02:27,578 --> 00:02:29,858 Speaker 3: front page story, and you know, like literally a front 33 00:02:29,899 --> 00:02:33,618 Speaker 3: page story. And these days, you know, even the smallest 34 00:02:33,659 --> 00:02:36,978 Speaker 3: of drug dealers would have far more than a kilo in. 35 00:02:36,978 --> 00:02:37,698 Speaker 4: The back of the car. 36 00:02:37,739 --> 00:02:42,859 Speaker 3: We're talking imports of four or five, six, seven hundred kilograms. 37 00:02:43,138 --> 00:02:47,698 Speaker 3: Not only we've seen those big busts happening regularly, almost routinely, 38 00:02:48,138 --> 00:02:51,898 Speaker 3: it seems to have had quite a like those big 39 00:02:51,939 --> 00:02:56,258 Speaker 3: busy having quite a negligible impact on how much drugs 40 00:02:56,258 --> 00:02:58,499 Speaker 3: are actually being consumed. And we can see that through 41 00:02:58,538 --> 00:03:01,659 Speaker 3: the wastewater testing. You know, for a long time the 42 00:03:01,698 --> 00:03:05,139 Speaker 3: wastewater test testing showed we were consuming around about fifteen 43 00:03:05,219 --> 00:03:07,698 Speaker 3: kilos of meth and phetamine per week. 44 00:03:07,978 --> 00:03:10,619 Speaker 4: Then last year sort of about from this, about this 45 00:03:10,698 --> 00:03:11,379 Speaker 4: time last. 46 00:03:11,258 --> 00:03:14,379 Speaker 3: Year, it was more than double, from about fifteen to 47 00:03:14,418 --> 00:03:17,499 Speaker 3: forty kilos per every single week, and it dropped down 48 00:03:17,538 --> 00:03:19,659 Speaker 3: a little bit by the end of the year. I 49 00:03:19,659 --> 00:03:23,099 Speaker 3: guess it shows that we've now reached a typic point 50 00:03:23,138 --> 00:03:27,418 Speaker 3: where we have we're on the map now globally for 51 00:03:27,418 --> 00:03:30,459 Speaker 3: for organized crime. Huge amounts of drugs have been sent 52 00:03:30,538 --> 00:03:33,979 Speaker 3: here regularly, and it's a real uphill battle for the 53 00:03:34,019 --> 00:03:38,219 Speaker 3: police and customs and other law enforcement agencies to really 54 00:03:38,259 --> 00:03:40,458 Speaker 3: investigate and stop these syndicates. 55 00:03:40,619 --> 00:03:43,699 Speaker 1: I guess when it comes to gangs and the underworld, 56 00:03:43,899 --> 00:03:48,139 Speaker 1: the public's general fear of gangs and stuff like that 57 00:03:48,299 --> 00:03:53,259 Speaker 1: arguably led to or contributed to a changing government. Right, 58 00:03:53,339 --> 00:03:57,778 Speaker 1: you've got national's hardline on law and order policies, you've 59 00:03:57,819 --> 00:04:00,899 Speaker 1: got the crackdown on gang crime, things like that. 60 00:04:01,419 --> 00:04:04,539 Speaker 2: Is the public right to be afraid? 61 00:04:05,299 --> 00:04:07,419 Speaker 4: I don't think the public and I think people listening 62 00:04:07,459 --> 00:04:08,499 Speaker 4: to this should. 63 00:04:08,259 --> 00:04:11,499 Speaker 3: Be afraid of going home or walking to you know, 64 00:04:11,699 --> 00:04:15,259 Speaker 3: doing going about their daily lives. In terms of the 65 00:04:15,339 --> 00:04:18,219 Speaker 3: violence and the conflict that we were seeing quite regularly 66 00:04:18,299 --> 00:04:20,498 Speaker 3: there a couple of year years ago. You know, normally 67 00:04:20,579 --> 00:04:23,099 Speaker 3: sort of gang an organized crime sort of conflict is 68 00:04:23,459 --> 00:04:25,979 Speaker 3: between is between gangs, it's not between If you're an 69 00:04:26,059 --> 00:04:27,739 Speaker 3: ncent member of the public, just go and make your 70 00:04:27,739 --> 00:04:30,339 Speaker 3: business not part of that world. I don't really think 71 00:04:30,419 --> 00:04:34,979 Speaker 3: you're in a huge immediate danger. But what what does 72 00:04:35,059 --> 00:04:37,539 Speaker 3: happen in those sort of situations, which can be quite kay, 73 00:04:37,899 --> 00:04:41,059 Speaker 3: quite fluid, is that people get caught in the crossfire. 74 00:04:41,619 --> 00:04:44,339 Speaker 3: And there have been instances of that in recent years. 75 00:04:44,619 --> 00:04:47,419 Speaker 3: I mean, there's an unsolved homicide at the moment sort 76 00:04:47,419 --> 00:04:50,259 Speaker 3: of from out sort of East Auckland Way where a 77 00:04:50,859 --> 00:04:54,499 Speaker 3: grandfather was sort of gunned down on his doorstep and 78 00:04:54,619 --> 00:04:59,579 Speaker 3: a sort of a execution style drive by targeted shooting. 79 00:04:59,619 --> 00:05:01,699 Speaker 4: Well, he wasn't the intended target of that. 80 00:05:02,459 --> 00:05:05,819 Speaker 3: Somebody else, another member of his family was, and you 81 00:05:05,859 --> 00:05:08,179 Speaker 3: know who was involved in that world. So like this 82 00:05:08,299 --> 00:05:10,899 Speaker 3: is those are the sort of the untender consequences that 83 00:05:10,979 --> 00:05:15,299 Speaker 3: can happen. But generally speaking we're not in danger of 84 00:05:16,419 --> 00:05:20,019 Speaker 3: being heard or sort of killed or oiled into the violence. 85 00:05:20,059 --> 00:05:23,699 Speaker 3: But sort of that does have an unsettling impact on 86 00:05:23,899 --> 00:05:26,339 Speaker 3: society and obviously the more drugs that are out there 87 00:05:27,499 --> 00:05:29,619 Speaker 3: that contributes to other wider social. 88 00:05:29,339 --> 00:05:34,019 Speaker 4: Issues which you know, indirectly do affect all of us. 89 00:05:34,379 --> 00:05:38,059 Speaker 1: Now. I know that people love to blame the Aussie 90 00:05:38,139 --> 00:05:42,419 Speaker 1: five ozho ones for the escalation in gang problems, right, 91 00:05:42,499 --> 00:05:46,379 Speaker 1: but New Zealand has always had a pretty narly gang land. 92 00:05:46,499 --> 00:05:49,499 Speaker 1: I mean, you've got the common cero's, the Mongols and 93 00:05:49,899 --> 00:05:53,019 Speaker 1: banditos coming in shore, but then you've got the Mongol 94 00:05:53,139 --> 00:05:56,699 Speaker 1: mob and Black Power and all those homegrown ones as well. 95 00:05:57,139 --> 00:06:03,539 Speaker 1: But how has the introduction of Aussie gangs changed the 96 00:06:03,619 --> 00:06:04,419 Speaker 1: game New. 97 00:06:04,379 --> 00:06:07,579 Speaker 3: Zealand it is always had an entrenched sort of gang 98 00:06:07,619 --> 00:06:11,739 Speaker 3: lifestyle going back to the nineteen fifties, Younger Mom and 99 00:06:11,779 --> 00:06:15,339 Speaker 3: Black Power for example, we're born out of abuse of 100 00:06:15,379 --> 00:06:18,899 Speaker 3: state here and sort of wider socioeconomic sort of problems 101 00:06:19,019 --> 00:06:24,099 Speaker 3: were happening and basically bands of young men coming together 102 00:06:24,179 --> 00:06:26,499 Speaker 3: to sort of in a rebellious way, and there was 103 00:06:26,539 --> 00:06:29,539 Speaker 3: a lot of sort of one time or disorganized crime 104 00:06:29,659 --> 00:06:31,579 Speaker 3: that came out of it. Back instid of the late 105 00:06:31,659 --> 00:06:35,259 Speaker 3: nineteen nineties and early two thousands, myth and Vetnamenon was 106 00:06:35,259 --> 00:06:37,419 Speaker 3: introduced to the country and we saw for the first 107 00:06:37,419 --> 00:06:41,178 Speaker 3: time a real organized crime element coming out of coming 108 00:06:41,179 --> 00:06:43,739 Speaker 3: out of the gangs that were already here. You know, 109 00:06:43,779 --> 00:06:46,498 Speaker 3: members of the head Hunters for example, or the House 110 00:06:46,499 --> 00:06:49,179 Speaker 3: Angels motorcycle gangs were. 111 00:06:49,099 --> 00:06:50,779 Speaker 4: Heavily involved in the myth trade. 112 00:06:51,139 --> 00:06:53,699 Speaker 3: And then we've seen in the past twenty years since 113 00:06:53,739 --> 00:06:57,739 Speaker 3: that time an evolution where you know, those gangs were 114 00:06:57,739 --> 00:07:01,339 Speaker 3: working with international partners to bring drugs into the country. 115 00:07:01,859 --> 00:07:06,099 Speaker 3: What has really changed in the past ten years, in particular, unfortunately, 116 00:07:06,299 --> 00:07:12,739 Speaker 3: is you know, members of Australian motorcycle gangs being deported 117 00:07:12,779 --> 00:07:16,019 Speaker 3: here and establishing chapters or I mean you can call 118 00:07:16,019 --> 00:07:21,099 Speaker 3: them branch offices really of genuinely true the international organized 119 00:07:21,139 --> 00:07:22,099 Speaker 3: crime groups. 120 00:07:22,099 --> 00:07:23,779 Speaker 4: And I think that's that's the difference. 121 00:07:24,379 --> 00:07:28,659 Speaker 3: They had genuine connections to supply lines overseas, not just 122 00:07:28,699 --> 00:07:32,659 Speaker 3: in Asia but sort of the South America's, Mexico, the US, 123 00:07:33,099 --> 00:07:36,019 Speaker 3: and that's really led to this influx we talked about before, 124 00:07:36,099 --> 00:07:40,219 Speaker 3: the one kilo drug bus turning into five hundred kilo 125 00:07:40,339 --> 00:07:43,339 Speaker 3: drug bus, that that that's no coincidence of that happened 126 00:07:43,379 --> 00:07:45,539 Speaker 3: around them at the same time that we started seeing 127 00:07:45,539 --> 00:07:48,219 Speaker 3: the deportees come here. They've also brought us sort of 128 00:07:48,219 --> 00:07:51,379 Speaker 3: a more sort of brazen approach, more sort of arrogant 129 00:07:51,379 --> 00:07:58,059 Speaker 3: approach to the underworld. And what that's led to, you know, 130 00:07:58,219 --> 00:08:01,339 Speaker 3: more shootings and violence, but also kind of a escalation 131 00:08:02,059 --> 00:08:04,739 Speaker 3: or a tip for tat. So the groups they were 132 00:08:04,779 --> 00:08:08,699 Speaker 3: already here have up their game in response to how 133 00:08:08,739 --> 00:08:12,499 Speaker 3: the Australian interlopers have sort of conducted their business. 134 00:08:12,579 --> 00:08:14,299 Speaker 4: So we're seeing things ratchet up. 135 00:08:14,339 --> 00:08:17,419 Speaker 3: It's not just the Aussie gangs now that are doing 136 00:08:17,459 --> 00:08:19,979 Speaker 3: these big imports, but they were the mines that sort 137 00:08:19,979 --> 00:08:21,099 Speaker 3: of kick things off. 138 00:08:24,499 --> 00:08:28,259 Speaker 5: As I've said before, gangs are not nice people. Those 139 00:08:28,299 --> 00:08:31,739 Speaker 5: opposing our gang policies often take them as very fine 140 00:08:31,739 --> 00:08:34,819 Speaker 5: community organizations. Well I say to you, they are not rotary. 141 00:08:35,259 --> 00:08:38,659 Speaker 5: They inflict serious, serious harm on our communities through peddling 142 00:08:38,699 --> 00:08:42,259 Speaker 5: illegal drugs and are responsible, frankly for a vast proportion 143 00:08:42,499 --> 00:08:44,899 Speaker 5: of our serious violence that happens on our streets. 144 00:08:45,379 --> 00:08:46,419 Speaker 4: As I say, it is. 145 00:08:46,379 --> 00:08:50,459 Speaker 5: One quarter of one percent of the Zealand's population, creating 146 00:08:50,619 --> 00:08:54,098 Speaker 5: one fifth of all of our serious violent crime and homicides, 147 00:08:54,419 --> 00:08:56,619 Speaker 5: and one quarter of all our firearm offences. 148 00:08:59,098 --> 00:09:02,739 Speaker 1: And while we're on the subject of international syndicates, I 149 00:09:02,779 --> 00:09:05,699 Speaker 1: guess when we talk about the underworld here and gangs 150 00:09:05,699 --> 00:09:07,979 Speaker 1: and stuff. We think of the patches, we think of 151 00:09:08,059 --> 00:09:12,258 Speaker 1: the bikes, we think of the lambos and the leather 152 00:09:12,498 --> 00:09:14,939 Speaker 1: and all that kind of stuff. But what I found 153 00:09:15,019 --> 00:09:18,258 Speaker 1: interesting from all of your reporting, Jared, is shining a 154 00:09:18,379 --> 00:09:22,619 Speaker 1: light on, say, the Asian syndicates that are working in 155 00:09:22,858 --> 00:09:26,578 Speaker 1: New Zealand and the history here. You mentioned that meth 156 00:09:26,779 --> 00:09:31,498 Speaker 1: really grew in popularity and really had a foothold in 157 00:09:31,539 --> 00:09:34,338 Speaker 1: New Zealand society in the early two thousands, But how 158 00:09:35,098 --> 00:09:37,139 Speaker 1: have the Asian syndicates been involved? 159 00:09:37,578 --> 00:09:40,858 Speaker 3: Yeah, and so you know, Asian organized crime has had 160 00:09:40,858 --> 00:09:43,378 Speaker 3: a foothold here again again for a long time, but 161 00:09:43,419 --> 00:09:46,899 Speaker 3: they became increasingly important back in sort of the early 162 00:09:46,899 --> 00:09:51,018 Speaker 3: two thousands, working in with the motorcycle gangs, I suppose 163 00:09:51,059 --> 00:09:53,899 Speaker 3: because a lot of the Asian organized crime groups had 164 00:09:53,978 --> 00:09:57,978 Speaker 3: access to either the ingredients for me amphetamine or finished 165 00:09:58,019 --> 00:10:01,779 Speaker 3: product themselves, either back in China or Southeast Asia. 166 00:10:01,819 --> 00:10:03,779 Speaker 4: Where so back. 167 00:10:03,858 --> 00:10:06,579 Speaker 3: Two thousand in the two thousands, they were the ones 168 00:10:06,578 --> 00:10:09,539 Speaker 3: that were able to supply and source their material and 169 00:10:09,578 --> 00:10:12,739 Speaker 3: bring it into the gangs here who then distributed amongst 170 00:10:12,779 --> 00:10:15,059 Speaker 3: the community. So it was like a business a business 171 00:10:15,098 --> 00:10:18,738 Speaker 3: relationship there and that's that's carried on to this day. 172 00:10:18,978 --> 00:10:22,339 Speaker 3: Metha feta meat production is still largely sourced out of 173 00:10:22,379 --> 00:10:26,659 Speaker 3: Southeast Asia, although Mexico and other areas as well, so 174 00:10:27,019 --> 00:10:29,299 Speaker 3: those sort of Asian organized crime groups are still a 175 00:10:29,379 --> 00:10:32,739 Speaker 3: huge player in the scene here. It's like, yes, Gang 176 00:10:33,218 --> 00:10:36,059 Speaker 3: moorcycle gangs in particular are often the sort of the 177 00:10:36,139 --> 00:10:39,098 Speaker 3: visual face of organized crime here because you know, they're 178 00:10:39,139 --> 00:10:43,659 Speaker 3: so you know, identifiable in many regards, whereas the Asian kind. 179 00:10:43,498 --> 00:10:45,018 Speaker 4: Of groups have kind of gone under the radar a 180 00:10:45,059 --> 00:10:45,458 Speaker 4: little bit. 181 00:10:45,618 --> 00:10:48,858 Speaker 3: But there's also you know a lot of strong events 182 00:10:48,858 --> 00:10:51,419 Speaker 3: and to show that Mexican cartels are seending large amount 183 00:10:51,458 --> 00:10:55,139 Speaker 3: of drunks here as another rival supplier to the Asian groups, 184 00:10:55,419 --> 00:10:58,018 Speaker 3: as well as sort of cocaine coming out of Central 185 00:10:58,019 --> 00:11:00,578 Speaker 3: and South America as well, So it's all part of 186 00:11:00,578 --> 00:11:04,819 Speaker 3: a wider ecosystem. They're all working together to make lots 187 00:11:04,858 --> 00:11:09,939 Speaker 3: of money. Largely those those big groups overseas are interested 188 00:11:09,978 --> 00:11:12,659 Speaker 3: in a small market like New Zealand because we are 189 00:11:12,738 --> 00:11:16,139 Speaker 3: a small market, but we're a very lucrative market because 190 00:11:16,139 --> 00:11:20,139 Speaker 3: of the margins that can be made even off the 191 00:11:20,179 --> 00:11:24,059 Speaker 3: smaller amounts of drugs. So it's certainly a global a 192 00:11:24,098 --> 00:11:28,459 Speaker 3: global business. You've got GAT here working with global business partners, 193 00:11:28,779 --> 00:11:30,978 Speaker 3: and in the same way the police and Customs now 194 00:11:31,059 --> 00:11:35,618 Speaker 3: work with their international partners. You know, transnational organized crime 195 00:11:35,738 --> 00:11:40,498 Speaker 3: by its definition, crosses borders quite bluidly, and in response 196 00:11:40,738 --> 00:11:43,139 Speaker 3: of the police and customs and others are sort of 197 00:11:43,139 --> 00:11:46,378 Speaker 3: having to work with their partners overseas as well because 198 00:11:46,699 --> 00:11:49,379 Speaker 3: there's no point just focusing on what's happening here. And 199 00:11:49,379 --> 00:11:51,619 Speaker 3: we're seeing a lot more co operation as well, which 200 00:11:51,659 --> 00:11:53,098 Speaker 3: is leading to some of these big drug. 201 00:11:52,939 --> 00:12:05,378 Speaker 1: Busts in terms of the tools that police and customs have. Obviously, 202 00:12:06,019 --> 00:12:08,499 Speaker 1: I've seen a couple of quotes that they're just working 203 00:12:08,539 --> 00:12:11,619 Speaker 1: against the tide, aren't they. So you get a six 204 00:12:11,779 --> 00:12:16,299 Speaker 1: hundred kilogram bust of meth over here, but over here 205 00:12:16,578 --> 00:12:18,179 Speaker 1: like what's coming through? 206 00:12:18,299 --> 00:12:22,179 Speaker 2: I mean, it just be a never ending job for them, 207 00:12:22,659 --> 00:12:23,098 Speaker 2: that's right. 208 00:12:23,139 --> 00:12:26,019 Speaker 4: I mean it's just you know, and talking to people 209 00:12:26,059 --> 00:12:27,378 Speaker 4: who are working. 210 00:12:27,179 --> 00:12:30,419 Speaker 3: In those investigations, you know, they go from job to 211 00:12:30,498 --> 00:12:33,379 Speaker 3: job to job and as soon as you might spend 212 00:12:33,659 --> 00:12:37,059 Speaker 3: months or even years in some cases investigating a particular 213 00:12:37,098 --> 00:12:39,739 Speaker 3: group whilst but you know there are multiple other groups 214 00:12:39,738 --> 00:12:41,979 Speaker 3: working at the same time doing the same thing, and 215 00:12:42,578 --> 00:12:45,419 Speaker 3: you know, it's these investigations are very time consuming, they're 216 00:12:45,498 --> 00:12:48,338 Speaker 3: very resource intensive, and not even up to the point 217 00:12:48,338 --> 00:12:50,179 Speaker 3: where their bust is made or their rests are made. 218 00:12:50,259 --> 00:12:52,699 Speaker 3: Like there's a lot of work that there happens from 219 00:12:52,858 --> 00:12:55,579 Speaker 3: the first arrest all the way through to the trial, 220 00:12:56,419 --> 00:12:59,859 Speaker 3: and so that means that those resources are not investigating 221 00:13:00,218 --> 00:13:02,699 Speaker 3: other groups, and there are many of them. 222 00:13:02,779 --> 00:13:05,218 Speaker 4: I mean, you know, literally, this is my third book 223 00:13:05,218 --> 00:13:05,739 Speaker 4: on the topic. 224 00:13:06,578 --> 00:13:10,138 Speaker 3: I think if I chose to like continue writing one 225 00:13:10,179 --> 00:13:13,099 Speaker 3: every year just about because there's so much material. And 226 00:13:13,139 --> 00:13:16,578 Speaker 3: that just shows again sort of the demand of drugs 227 00:13:16,779 --> 00:13:19,858 Speaker 3: which is driving that sort of entrenched organized crime problem 228 00:13:19,939 --> 00:13:20,939 Speaker 3: in our country. 229 00:13:21,299 --> 00:13:25,819 Speaker 1: When it comes to gang life and what is associated 230 00:13:25,858 --> 00:13:28,578 Speaker 1: with it. So you've got the outlaws, the guns, the drugs, 231 00:13:28,578 --> 00:13:31,619 Speaker 1: the violence, the money. Right on the flip side, you 232 00:13:31,738 --> 00:13:34,458 Speaker 1: do hear and I don't know whether I've been sucked 233 00:13:34,458 --> 00:13:37,458 Speaker 1: into the pr or not, but you do hear about 234 00:13:37,458 --> 00:13:43,019 Speaker 1: the camaraderie among gang members, the idea of family. Do 235 00:13:43,098 --> 00:13:46,618 Speaker 1: you think gangs are inherently evil? 236 00:13:47,299 --> 00:13:48,858 Speaker 4: I think evil's a strong word. 237 00:13:49,659 --> 00:13:51,499 Speaker 3: I think a lot of I think a lot of 238 00:13:51,699 --> 00:13:55,699 Speaker 3: activities which come out of out of gang life are terrible, 239 00:13:55,738 --> 00:13:57,779 Speaker 3: but I can see the attraction to it as well. 240 00:13:57,779 --> 00:14:01,899 Speaker 3: I mean, you know, gangs, many incidences are born out 241 00:14:01,899 --> 00:14:07,458 Speaker 3: of tough situations, tough homes, tough communities where people might 242 00:14:07,498 --> 00:14:10,139 Speaker 3: not have a loving family, or they might not have 243 00:14:10,218 --> 00:14:12,179 Speaker 3: a job, or they might not have that sense of 244 00:14:12,218 --> 00:14:15,218 Speaker 3: purpose or camaraderie or brotherhood. 245 00:14:14,978 --> 00:14:18,738 Speaker 4: That gang life can project and they can attract. And 246 00:14:19,219 --> 00:14:20,939 Speaker 4: I like a lot of a lot of. 247 00:14:20,899 --> 00:14:24,579 Speaker 3: Gang members joined out of trauma in their own line. 248 00:14:25,379 --> 00:14:27,459 Speaker 3: You know, the genesis of gangs in New Zealand comes 249 00:14:27,499 --> 00:14:29,419 Speaker 3: from abuse and stakes here. 250 00:14:29,819 --> 00:14:32,019 Speaker 4: So like I can see, there are a lot of. 251 00:14:32,059 --> 00:14:35,899 Speaker 3: Attractive things to to being in in a gang, and 252 00:14:35,939 --> 00:14:40,339 Speaker 3: that is that brotherhood, identity, camaraderie, yeah, sense of purpose. 253 00:14:40,939 --> 00:14:44,019 Speaker 3: But on the flip side, amongst amongst those groups, there's 254 00:14:44,059 --> 00:14:46,258 Speaker 3: a lot of serious cumun activity. But we can't get 255 00:14:46,259 --> 00:14:48,779 Speaker 3: away from that and whether or not individual members are 256 00:14:48,779 --> 00:14:50,819 Speaker 3: involved and that is still associated with it. 257 00:14:51,059 --> 00:14:53,299 Speaker 4: And you know, there's no there's. 258 00:14:53,139 --> 00:14:55,659 Speaker 3: No doubt at all that that gangs play a huge 259 00:14:55,699 --> 00:14:58,059 Speaker 3: part of the drug trade in New Zealand working in 260 00:14:58,099 --> 00:15:02,179 Speaker 3: with these other organized crime groups O disease and that's not. 261 00:15:02,179 --> 00:15:02,619 Speaker 4: A good thing. 262 00:15:02,859 --> 00:15:04,339 Speaker 1: Yeah, it seems to me that we're not going to 263 00:15:04,419 --> 00:15:08,419 Speaker 1: we're not ever going to get rid of gangs altogether. Right, 264 00:15:08,619 --> 00:15:13,379 Speaker 1: So let's put that idea aside. Let's think about how 265 00:15:13,459 --> 00:15:16,779 Speaker 1: we stop. So to me, it seems like it's the math, 266 00:15:17,259 --> 00:15:21,619 Speaker 1: it's the easy ish. I suppose high risk, high reward money. 267 00:15:22,499 --> 00:15:24,379 Speaker 1: How do we stop And I know you probably get 268 00:15:24,379 --> 00:15:27,339 Speaker 1: this question all the time, but how do we stop 269 00:15:27,499 --> 00:15:31,779 Speaker 1: them from A bringing in math or B do we 270 00:15:31,859 --> 00:15:34,579 Speaker 1: just give them I don't know, like other opportunities government 271 00:15:34,739 --> 00:15:37,939 Speaker 1: contracts to do the security at I don't know, events 272 00:15:38,019 --> 00:15:40,659 Speaker 1: or something another revenue stream. 273 00:15:41,099 --> 00:15:44,059 Speaker 2: So they don't they so they stop all the bad stuff. 274 00:15:44,339 --> 00:15:48,059 Speaker 3: Yeah, I mean that's a really difficult, big question to ask, 275 00:15:48,299 --> 00:15:51,099 Speaker 3: and one that I don't have all the answers too. 276 00:15:51,419 --> 00:15:53,819 Speaker 3: But what I would say is that and I don't 277 00:15:53,819 --> 00:15:56,899 Speaker 3: think there's one single answer. There's no silver bullets to 278 00:15:57,179 --> 00:16:01,699 Speaker 3: this because the will gang life is intrinsically tied into 279 00:16:01,699 --> 00:16:03,658 Speaker 3: other bigger, wider social issues that. 280 00:16:03,619 --> 00:16:05,099 Speaker 4: We have in this country. 281 00:16:05,099 --> 00:16:10,419 Speaker 3: With a that's poverty, employment or housing, lack of education, 282 00:16:10,539 --> 00:16:13,778 Speaker 3: lack of opportunity, it's all it's all tied into, it's 283 00:16:13,779 --> 00:16:18,259 Speaker 3: all tied into much bigger issues that can all be 284 00:16:18,259 --> 00:16:21,219 Speaker 3: tackled in the same kinds of ways. And I mean 285 00:16:21,739 --> 00:16:25,179 Speaker 3: one one thing that I would say about, you know, 286 00:16:25,259 --> 00:16:28,019 Speaker 3: those who are attracted into the gang world. I mean 287 00:16:28,059 --> 00:16:31,179 Speaker 3: a lot of it is intergenerational and out of communities 288 00:16:31,379 --> 00:16:32,779 Speaker 3: that getting life. 289 00:16:32,619 --> 00:16:35,259 Speaker 4: Is normalized and even idolized. 290 00:16:35,019 --> 00:16:38,619 Speaker 3: In particular and potentially so we need to be it's 291 00:16:38,659 --> 00:16:41,819 Speaker 3: at a young age. It's it's providing opportunities for. 292 00:16:41,899 --> 00:16:44,299 Speaker 4: Kids in particular, I think sport is. 293 00:16:45,939 --> 00:16:49,339 Speaker 3: It's against sports teams and things that are happening for 294 00:16:49,419 --> 00:16:51,819 Speaker 3: youth that you know, in the smaller communities where there 295 00:16:51,859 --> 00:16:56,099 Speaker 3: might not be opportunities, those sorts of things that can 296 00:16:56,939 --> 00:17:01,659 Speaker 3: provide kids with a sense of belonging, identity, and even 297 00:17:01,699 --> 00:17:04,459 Speaker 3: just as simple as providing hope, I suppose, something to 298 00:17:04,459 --> 00:17:07,259 Speaker 3: look forward to on the weekend rather than getting sucked 299 00:17:07,259 --> 00:17:09,979 Speaker 3: into a world where a lot more misery can come 300 00:17:10,019 --> 00:17:10,339 Speaker 3: from it. 301 00:17:10,459 --> 00:17:13,339 Speaker 4: And so that's that's part of those are parts of 302 00:17:13,339 --> 00:17:14,499 Speaker 4: the answers i'd say. 303 00:17:14,859 --> 00:17:17,299 Speaker 3: And in terms of the drug aspect of gang life 304 00:17:17,499 --> 00:17:19,339 Speaker 3: and the money that can be made from it, yes, 305 00:17:19,379 --> 00:17:22,059 Speaker 3: we need as much enforcement as we possibly can get, 306 00:17:22,139 --> 00:17:24,099 Speaker 3: and the police and customers do at the best shop 307 00:17:24,139 --> 00:17:26,459 Speaker 3: that they possibly can. But we certainly need to be 308 00:17:26,499 --> 00:17:32,779 Speaker 3: looking more into investment into rehabilitation and counseling opportunities for 309 00:17:32,859 --> 00:17:36,259 Speaker 3: people who are tied up in addiction, because the only 310 00:17:36,299 --> 00:17:39,099 Speaker 3: way that like the supply of drugs is going. 311 00:17:39,019 --> 00:17:41,339 Speaker 4: To dry out is if the demand of drugs rise up. 312 00:17:41,459 --> 00:17:44,099 Speaker 3: And so I think a lot more investment could be 313 00:17:45,419 --> 00:17:47,699 Speaker 3: could be made in sort of the healthy. 314 00:17:47,499 --> 00:17:49,779 Speaker 4: Aspect of the drug of the drug world. 315 00:17:49,979 --> 00:17:52,219 Speaker 3: I mean, if you're living in a small rural community 316 00:17:52,539 --> 00:17:55,019 Speaker 3: and needs to make plenty, for example, like it's very 317 00:17:55,019 --> 00:17:57,179 Speaker 3: hard to get the help that you need compared to 318 00:17:57,899 --> 00:18:00,259 Speaker 3: a much larger sort of city seem. 319 00:18:00,099 --> 00:18:03,219 Speaker 4: To like Aukland, so a lot more and you know the. 320 00:18:03,219 --> 00:18:05,699 Speaker 3: Government is thinking and looking into these kinds of areas. 321 00:18:05,779 --> 00:18:09,299 Speaker 3: But I would say that the antswers lie within communities. 322 00:18:09,739 --> 00:18:12,859 Speaker 3: In each community you know a visit or report on 323 00:18:12,899 --> 00:18:15,379 Speaker 3: in these big drug bus there's always people in there 324 00:18:15,579 --> 00:18:19,339 Speaker 3: that are doing amazing work with young people. They just 325 00:18:19,379 --> 00:18:21,939 Speaker 3: need some support basically. Yeah, I think I think the 326 00:18:21,979 --> 00:18:24,659 Speaker 3: answers lie in individual communities and the other ones that 327 00:18:24,859 --> 00:18:28,219 Speaker 3: know what would work for their for their farm and 328 00:18:28,259 --> 00:18:31,939 Speaker 3: their families, and it's a matter of empowering and supporting them. 329 00:18:32,219 --> 00:18:34,659 Speaker 2: Yeah, those real grassroots efforts. 330 00:18:34,699 --> 00:18:36,899 Speaker 1: Hey, I mean that made me think of a story 331 00:18:36,939 --> 00:18:39,419 Speaker 1: that in your book, and you've also written about it 332 00:18:40,219 --> 00:18:42,819 Speaker 1: for The Herald about Camille, tell me more about that. 333 00:18:43,379 --> 00:18:47,019 Speaker 3: Yeah, So, Commune Kit was someone who wrote about in 334 00:18:47,059 --> 00:18:50,379 Speaker 3: my last book, almost a throwaway kind of line. She 335 00:18:50,579 --> 00:18:52,899 Speaker 3: was a sort of a drug dealer for the Monger 336 00:18:53,019 --> 00:18:55,739 Speaker 3: mob and the white cattle and so she wasn't a 337 00:18:56,019 --> 00:18:58,339 Speaker 3: focus of the book. She was just a line in there, 338 00:18:58,339 --> 00:18:59,979 Speaker 3: a couple of lines in there. And then after the 339 00:18:59,979 --> 00:19:03,459 Speaker 3: book came out, she rang me and said, oh, just 340 00:19:03,899 --> 00:19:05,939 Speaker 3: you know, I way, I kind of churned my life 341 00:19:05,979 --> 00:19:09,579 Speaker 3: around and doing really well, and you know, and so 342 00:19:09,619 --> 00:19:12,299 Speaker 3: we agreed to meet up in her new home and 343 00:19:12,499 --> 00:19:15,579 Speaker 3: just talk about what she's doing now. And she's someone 344 00:19:15,619 --> 00:19:18,379 Speaker 3: who's gone from being quite a heavily involved in that 345 00:19:18,419 --> 00:19:21,539 Speaker 3: world to now working as a peer support worker. So 346 00:19:21,659 --> 00:19:24,579 Speaker 3: that's someone who walks alongside those who are in recovery 347 00:19:24,579 --> 00:19:27,659 Speaker 3: from addiction and just helping them with basic day to 348 00:19:27,739 --> 00:19:31,779 Speaker 3: day life really as a support worker. And so we 349 00:19:31,859 --> 00:19:34,099 Speaker 3: wrote that piece for The Herald and we included part 350 00:19:34,139 --> 00:19:36,779 Speaker 3: of it in the new book. Now, and you know, 351 00:19:36,939 --> 00:19:41,659 Speaker 3: she's a really inspiring story and someone that you know, 352 00:19:43,179 --> 00:19:45,419 Speaker 3: a lot of these stories are quite dark and quite depressing, 353 00:19:45,499 --> 00:19:47,179 Speaker 3: and she was a real sort of story of hope 354 00:19:47,619 --> 00:19:51,059 Speaker 3: and something that sort of was quite uplifting. So, you know, 355 00:19:51,139 --> 00:19:53,539 Speaker 3: there are success stories out there, and those are the 356 00:19:53,659 --> 00:19:55,259 Speaker 3: kinds of people that we need to be listening to 357 00:19:55,379 --> 00:19:58,059 Speaker 3: about potential solutions and the way forward. 358 00:20:00,739 --> 00:20:02,739 Speaker 6: I got to that point where I was willing and 359 00:20:02,899 --> 00:20:05,619 Speaker 6: ready to do whatever it took. I never, in my 360 00:20:06,539 --> 00:20:09,739 Speaker 6: entire life ever dreamed that I'd be where I am today. 361 00:20:09,899 --> 00:20:11,979 Speaker 6: I am a peace support worker for the South Way 362 00:20:12,059 --> 00:20:16,059 Speaker 6: ketdo Key, New Zealand. So I have a PhD in 363 00:20:16,099 --> 00:20:19,219 Speaker 6: addiction right already. I don't need to go and do 364 00:20:19,339 --> 00:20:21,259 Speaker 6: the theory and go and do all the box that 365 00:20:21,899 --> 00:20:24,779 Speaker 6: I've lived it. I've got all that knowledge. I know 366 00:20:24,939 --> 00:20:27,779 Speaker 6: the manipulation. I know what goes on up here, you know. 367 00:20:27,939 --> 00:20:29,819 Speaker 6: I know the means and ways that we have to 368 00:20:29,899 --> 00:20:33,619 Speaker 6: live to survive, you know, and it's very valuable. 369 00:20:36,099 --> 00:20:41,059 Speaker 1: And what do you believe needs to change in our 370 00:20:41,179 --> 00:20:42,539 Speaker 1: approach to gangs? 371 00:20:43,099 --> 00:20:43,658 Speaker 2: If anything? 372 00:20:43,739 --> 00:20:47,259 Speaker 1: I mean I'm thinking media wise, right, does the media 373 00:20:47,659 --> 00:20:54,859 Speaker 1: tend to glamorize gang life or does it completely villainize them? 374 00:20:55,019 --> 00:20:56,859 Speaker 1: I mean, is are there any changes to be made 375 00:20:56,859 --> 00:20:57,859 Speaker 1: about how we view them. 376 00:20:58,659 --> 00:21:02,779 Speaker 3: In terms of reporting on gangs, I mean what, I 377 00:21:02,899 --> 00:21:07,139 Speaker 3: don't think media glamorize gang life. I mean most of 378 00:21:07,179 --> 00:21:11,699 Speaker 3: the reporting done is in relation to you know, gaming 379 00:21:11,779 --> 00:21:17,019 Speaker 3: has been busted for being involved in the drug world 380 00:21:17,139 --> 00:21:21,179 Speaker 3: or something of violence. So I don't think it's glamorizing 381 00:21:21,459 --> 00:21:25,339 Speaker 3: gang life. Do gangs get demonized a little bit? Yeah, 382 00:21:25,539 --> 00:21:27,419 Speaker 3: so as there is sometimes it can feel a little 383 00:21:27,699 --> 00:21:29,899 Speaker 3: some of the gang coverage can feel overwhelming at times. 384 00:21:29,899 --> 00:21:30,979 Speaker 4: That can be so everywhere. 385 00:21:31,739 --> 00:21:34,339 Speaker 3: I think probably the biggest thing to sort of remembering 386 00:21:34,379 --> 00:21:37,419 Speaker 3: all this is that it's not just gangs evolved in 387 00:21:37,459 --> 00:21:38,019 Speaker 3: the drug world. 388 00:21:38,059 --> 00:21:38,619 Speaker 4: It's sort of this. 389 00:21:39,859 --> 00:21:42,459 Speaker 3: I try to talk about organized crime as opposed to gangs, 390 00:21:42,499 --> 00:21:45,779 Speaker 3: and we talk about that ecosystem before, about how gangs 391 00:21:45,819 --> 00:21:48,259 Speaker 3: are heavily or some gangs are heavily involved in the 392 00:21:48,819 --> 00:21:52,099 Speaker 3: in the drug trade and you know, importing it I've 393 00:21:52,139 --> 00:21:54,939 Speaker 3: never seen before rate, but they're working in with. 394 00:21:54,979 --> 00:21:57,979 Speaker 1: Other groups, you know, and the fact that they're like recognizable, 395 00:21:58,059 --> 00:22:01,139 Speaker 1: we can see them like people loved stuff that we 396 00:22:01,699 --> 00:22:04,859 Speaker 1: fear the unknown, but we love to identify and see 397 00:22:04,979 --> 00:22:07,819 Speaker 1: things and be like yeah, that's right, gang member. 398 00:22:09,099 --> 00:22:12,379 Speaker 3: Yeah, and so they become a face for that, and 399 00:22:12,459 --> 00:22:16,219 Speaker 3: obviously the Coalition government bought in sort of the gang 400 00:22:16,299 --> 00:22:19,459 Speaker 3: patch ban, and you know, I was kind of a 401 00:22:19,459 --> 00:22:22,099 Speaker 3: little bit skeptical about it at the time as to 402 00:22:22,219 --> 00:22:24,899 Speaker 3: what impact they might have, but games have been largely 403 00:22:25,019 --> 00:22:27,899 Speaker 3: compliant with that. I think there was a lot of 404 00:22:27,979 --> 00:22:30,019 Speaker 3: fears around it sort of been too hard to believe, 405 00:22:30,099 --> 00:22:33,339 Speaker 3: and I mean at this stage, yeah, most people seem 406 00:22:33,379 --> 00:22:37,299 Speaker 3: to be being on board with it simply because of 407 00:22:37,419 --> 00:22:40,219 Speaker 3: the fear of inviting trouble into their home, I suppose. 408 00:22:40,219 --> 00:22:41,859 Speaker 3: I mean, if there's one thing that people don't want, 409 00:22:41,899 --> 00:22:44,418 Speaker 3: it's the police coming in through their house looking at 410 00:22:44,499 --> 00:22:47,699 Speaker 3: you know, raiding the place. So games have been largely 411 00:22:47,779 --> 00:22:51,859 Speaker 3: compliant with that, and anecdotally, talking to the police, they 412 00:22:51,939 --> 00:22:55,939 Speaker 3: feel like the patch band has led to fewer incidents 413 00:22:56,019 --> 00:22:59,179 Speaker 3: of conflict between random game members, you know, just walking 414 00:22:59,219 --> 00:23:02,139 Speaker 3: down the street or whatever and then causing trouble. So 415 00:23:02,819 --> 00:23:06,179 Speaker 3: I think we won't see the full benefits, or we 416 00:23:06,259 --> 00:23:08,339 Speaker 3: weren't to the full consequence of the outcome of that 417 00:23:08,499 --> 00:23:14,099 Speaker 3: decision for some time yet, but certainly it's I think 418 00:23:14,619 --> 00:23:18,819 Speaker 3: being not so visible and reducing the perceived where of 419 00:23:19,019 --> 00:23:22,299 Speaker 3: games is a good thing. So that's something I'm hearing 420 00:23:22,619 --> 00:23:26,499 Speaker 3: anecdotally from getting himbers so that they no longer sort 421 00:23:26,499 --> 00:23:29,579 Speaker 3: of see the point and riding around without their colors on. 422 00:23:29,819 --> 00:23:31,979 Speaker 3: So you know, a big part of the game is 423 00:23:32,379 --> 00:23:37,619 Speaker 3: now less attractive from some from some aescects too. So yeah, 424 00:23:37,659 --> 00:23:39,979 Speaker 3: I guess some time we'll see if that has an 425 00:23:39,979 --> 00:23:43,139 Speaker 3: impact on recruitment numbers. It's too really to say. 426 00:23:43,459 --> 00:23:45,059 Speaker 2: Thanks for joining us, Jared. 427 00:23:45,019 --> 00:23:46,379 Speaker 4: No problem, Thanks so much, Chelsey. 428 00:23:49,779 --> 00:23:52,539 Speaker 2: That's set for this episode of the Front Page. 429 00:23:52,779 --> 00:23:56,259 Speaker 1: You can read more about today's stories and extensive news 430 00:23:56,379 --> 00:24:00,339 Speaker 1: coverage at enzedherld dot co dot enz. The Front Page 431 00:24:00,419 --> 00:24:03,619 Speaker 1: is produced by Ethan Sills and Richard Martin, who is 432 00:24:03,779 --> 00:24:07,979 Speaker 1: also our editor. I am Chelsea Daniels. Subscribe to The 433 00:24:08,019 --> 00:24:11,659 Speaker 1: Front Page on iHeartRadio or wherever you get your podcasts 434 00:24:12,059 --> 00:24:16,099 Speaker 2: And tune in on Monday for another look behind the headlines.