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Speaker 1: On the huddle this evening. Tris Shurson from Sherson, Willis

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Speaker 1: pr and former Auckland mayor, former Labour leader, former Foreign

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Speaker 1: Minister Phil golfkild accord.

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Speaker 2: To he Hello, Jack Hallo, fell to be very great

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Speaker 2: to be with the both of you.

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Speaker 1: Fell I'm going to start with you because Donald Trump

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Speaker 1: has said that NATO troops stayed back, stayed a little back,

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Speaker 1: a little off the front lines in Afghanistan, and you

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Speaker 1: have put forward a pretty strongly argued peace saying that

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Speaker 1: New Zealand's government needs to speak out against his comments.

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Speaker 3: Why so, oh absolutely, Look, Trump is absolutely wrong. It's

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Speaker 3: either he's hugely ignorant or it's a self serving lie

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Speaker 3: to just diminish the sacrifice of a third of those

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Speaker 3: who died in Afghanistan who were non American people serving

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Speaker 3: with ISAF. Look, he cheapens the sacrifice that our and

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Speaker 3: other countries made. Ten of our soldiers died there. And

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Speaker 3: imagine that the hurt and the insult felt by the

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Speaker 3: families of those vets. One of the people that died

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Speaker 3: there was my nephew. And you know, for Trump to say,

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Speaker 3: and I went to the funerals of a number of

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Speaker 3: people at Litton and Burnham. To say that our people

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Speaker 3: were in the back and they weren't in the front

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Speaker 3: line is just an outright lie. It's outrageous. Other leaders

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Speaker 3: have called them out, including Starmer, who said that it

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Speaker 3: was deeply insulting what he said. And our people have

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Speaker 3: not issued a word of criticism and that shows how

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Speaker 3: hard I think our government is trying to ingratiate themselves

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Speaker 3: to Trump and not having the guts to stand up

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Speaker 3: and speak on behalf of our veterans who gave up

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Speaker 3: so much.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, I think many many people will agree that his

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Speaker 1: comments were deeply insulting, especially to those who were on

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Speaker 1: the front lines. To be a total neitpicker though, fell

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Speaker 1: I mean he did say NATO troops right, So New

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Speaker 1: Zealander was.

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Speaker 3: Not a part no, no, but we were part of

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Speaker 3: the NATO led group, the International Secure Assistance Force. He

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Speaker 3: wasn't singling out just those countries that were part of NATO,

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Speaker 3: but that were part of the ISAF forces, so there's

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Speaker 3: no Look, he wasn't saying the Britz lacked guts, but

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Speaker 3: the New Zealanders they were great. He was putting everybody

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Speaker 3: that were non American into one bag and saying you

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Speaker 3: weren't American, you weren't really that important, your sacrifice wasn't

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Speaker 3: that great, and you didn't show much courage. But then,

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Speaker 3: you know, this was the guy that called John McCain,

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Speaker 3: who was shot down over Vietnam, had two fractured arms,

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Speaker 3: a fractured leg, and he was captured after nearly drowning

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Speaker 3: when he parachuted into a lake, called him he wasn't

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Speaker 3: a hero because he'd allowed himself to be captured. The

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Speaker 3: man that dodged the draft five times, once again insulting veterans.

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Speaker 1: So trish, what have you made of the New Zealand

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Speaker 1: response here? Does it make sense for the government to

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Speaker 1: put its head above the power of it and criticize

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Speaker 1: Donald Trump's comments?

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Speaker 2: Well, it seems to me that this is a continuation

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Speaker 2: of New Zealand's appeasements strategy for Trump. But my hope

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Speaker 2: is what we saw at Davos last week starting to happen.

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Speaker 2: And don't forget these comments of Trump's were part of

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Speaker 2: what some have called the sort of monstrous Trump show

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Speaker 2: that rolled into Davos last week. You know, gave a

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Speaker 2: long and rambling speech which was all raally about alliance corrosion.

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Speaker 2: But what you started to see at Davos was, you know,

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Speaker 2: led by Canadian Prime Minister Mark Carney, some starting to

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Speaker 2: really stand up to Trump. And I felt that the

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Speaker 2: strength of Sukia Starma from Britain, his comments around pushing

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Speaker 2: back on this and others people are starting, I think,

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Speaker 2: to show a little bit more spine around Trump. But

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Speaker 2: the bigger question is whether or not we are finally

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Speaker 2: going to see leaders in the Western Alliance actually come

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Speaker 2: together and start to make joint statements and still have

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Speaker 2: a much more informed view on this than me as

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Speaker 2: a former foreign minister. But you know Trump is he

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Speaker 2: runs the presidency like a reality TV show. He likes

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Speaker 2: to end every sort of episode of his show, I e.

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Speaker 2: At Davos with these shocking remarks that everyone spends the

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Speaker 2: next two weeks reacting to but what we are, and

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Speaker 2: he loves the fact that everyone is fractured and everyone

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Speaker 2: is handwringing saying should we react or not? You know,

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Speaker 2: there are now mounting calls for increasing cohesiveness from Western

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Speaker 2: leaders to actually call out these kind of comments.

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Speaker 1: So do you think we've sent a shift? If you

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Speaker 1: consider the way in which European company countries responded to

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Speaker 1: Greenland over the last couple of weeks. You think about

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Speaker 1: some of those comments from the likes of Karne at Davos,

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Speaker 1: the likes of Sekia Starma. Do you think that some

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Speaker 1: of the other countries in the so called Western Alliance

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Speaker 1: might be changing their strategy when it comes to dealing

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Speaker 1: with Trump.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, yeah, I think there has been a shift. And

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Speaker 3: you know what the Europeans have realized is that when

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Speaker 3: you appease a playground bully, you don't stop them bullying.

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Speaker 3: You're just encouraging, encourage them to keep on doing it.

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Speaker 3: They were outraged first of all at the idea that

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Speaker 3: Trump did not initially dismiss that he would invade Greenland,

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Speaker 3: which is part of the Kingdom of Denmark, one of

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Speaker 3: his allies in the country that suffered the highest per

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Speaker 3: capita losses in Afghanistan, by the way. And then they

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Speaker 3: were even more outraged that if they issued a word

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Speaker 3: of criticism, he was going to slap big tariffs on them. Now,

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Speaker 3: this is just unacceptable, narcissistic megalomania, bullying by a guy

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Speaker 3: that doesn't deserve to be the head of the world's

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Speaker 3: most powerful country. And the Europeans have figured it out.

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Speaker 3: If you stand up against him, he'll back off, and

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Speaker 3: he did, and Mark Carney led the way. And what

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Speaker 3: I'm saying is, wouldn't it be fantastic if New Zealand

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Speaker 3: pill leaders in government actually did the same thing and

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Speaker 3: showed a bit of spine so trash.

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Speaker 1: New Zealand Rugby has announced its prerequisites for the next

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Speaker 1: Allbacks coach. They've got to be a New Zealander and

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Speaker 1: they have to have international coaching experience. What do you reckon?

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Speaker 2: Well, I'm look, I'm not as knee deep in rugby

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Speaker 2: as I might have been ten years ago, Jack, But

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Speaker 2: I do think this is an interesting twist. I think

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Speaker 2: there's a couple of things. First of all, the composition

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Speaker 2: of the panel who are selecting their new coaches is

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Speaker 2: a tell because through the last few years there have

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Speaker 2: been issues with at New Zealand Rugby, not just with

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Speaker 2: governance but also team performance and having that player voice,

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Speaker 2: and I think the panel composition tells you they're trying

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Speaker 2: to balance all of those. The international experience, to me,

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Speaker 2: seems like a good idea because the All Blacks don't

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Speaker 2: need to learn how to play rugby, but they do

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Speaker 2: need to win in increasingly tough environments where a lot

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Speaker 2: of our main competitors are stronger than us, so you

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Speaker 2: need a coach who can bring back that knowledge. I

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Speaker 2: think the New Zealand passport rule is interesting and maybe

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Speaker 2: that's more about the culture of the team and you

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Speaker 2: know what everyone now calls the all Blacks environment in quotes.

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Speaker 2: But I do think that we have to be careful

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Speaker 2: that we don't miss good talent because of that. And also,

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Speaker 2: don't forget it's not just about the coach in the

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Speaker 2: All Blacks. It's about the assistant stack that sits you know,

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Speaker 2: below and alongside the coach, and that is equally, if

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Speaker 2: not more more important.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, Phil, what do you think?

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Speaker 3: Yeah? Look, I tend to agree with all of what

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Speaker 3: Trish said there. Obviously, you've got to have international coaching experience.

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Speaker 3: If you don't have that, you're at a real disc advantage,

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Speaker 3: and you'd have to ask the question, if you're a

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Speaker 3: really good coach, how come you'd never been given the

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Speaker 3: chance to coach at an international level. I'd much prefer

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Speaker 3: it to be a New Zealander. But if you had

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Speaker 3: somebody really superb that wasn't a New Zealander, but was

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Speaker 3: the best person for the job. I'd still tend to

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Speaker 3: take the best person for the job, you know, I

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Speaker 3: often wonder obviously you'd think that Scott Robertson with his

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Speaker 3: track record with the Crusaders was an obvious person and

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Speaker 3: the huge success rate in super rugby, but he didn't

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Speaker 3: have international experience. But more importantly, he didn't have the

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Speaker 3: ability to motivate and bring that team together. So there's

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Speaker 3: got to be those you know, Okay, most of these

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Speaker 3: coaches are going to be former All Blacks and would

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Speaker 3: be players, but you've got to have that way. Your

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Speaker 3: coach is there to motivate and to unify and to

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Speaker 3: strategically plan for the team, and they have to have

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Speaker 3: those skills now, you know, I can understand why Scott

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Speaker 3: Robinson was replaced, even with the seventy six percent track

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Speaker 3: record of winning. But they need to make sure that

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Speaker 3: we have somebody really superb that can take us back

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Speaker 3: to a situation where we can win the next Rugby

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Speaker 3: World Cup next year.

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Speaker 1: And do it fast. I think that's the key as well.

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Speaker 1: Thanks so much for your time this evening, guys. That's

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Speaker 1: former Auckland mea former labor leader Phil Goff and tros

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Speaker 1: Shurson from Sherston Williams PR huddle this evening.

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