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Speaker 1: You're listening to a podcast from news talks It b

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Speaker 1: follow this and our wide range of podcasts now on iHeartRadio.

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Speaker 1: It's time for all the attitude, all the opinion, all

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Speaker 1: the information, all the debates of the now the Leyton

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Speaker 1: Smith podcast powered by news talks It.

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Speaker 2: Be Welcome to podcasts three hundred and seventeen for twenty

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Speaker 2: five February twenty twenty six. Well seems the world is

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Speaker 2: falling apart. That's according to some sources that arrive in

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Speaker 2: my mailbox, some of them sent by some of you.

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Speaker 2: It's certainly, though, a grand time for speculation, and one

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Speaker 2: could draw up a long list, but no, I've only

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Speaker 2: got a short one. Let's just start with the Well,

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Speaker 2: what we might call today's feature, and that is that

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Speaker 2: for some considerable time, in countries with judicial systems like

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Speaker 2: New Zealand, Australia, Canada and the US, the senior courts

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Speaker 2: have been expanding their are A Professor Jim Allen was

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Speaker 2: commissioned to write an appraisal of a new six hundred

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Speaker 2: page book, actually six hundred plus pages for a US

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Speaker 2: law journal. In summary, he concluded, what one Supreme court

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Speaker 2: has been doing is bonkers, flat out judicial supremacy, but

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Speaker 2: a book for anyone interested in the law and politics.

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Speaker 2: We also share comment on a range of current troublesome issues.

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Speaker 2: But now I'm suffering from a little frustration. It's one

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Speaker 2: of those days when things go wrong, not accidentally by intent,

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Speaker 2: but there's no correlation between the intenders and the my reaction.

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Speaker 2: What I'm talking about, of course, is the State of

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Speaker 2: the Union address that by the time you hear this

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Speaker 2: will undoubtedly be over. This podcast tries to maintain a

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Speaker 2: regular time that it's released, and some get it early,

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Speaker 2: if others because it goes out in stages. But nevertheless,

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Speaker 2: the State of the Union speech is a very very

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Speaker 2: important one. Usually it is so Trump's State of the Union.

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Speaker 2: Here are five things to watch. You'll be able to

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Speaker 2: double back on them and see after the event whether

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Speaker 2: or not this is correct. But what does he say

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Speaker 2: about Iran? Obviously, Iran is the most obvious topic on

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Speaker 2: which Trump could make seismic news. Second one is how

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Speaker 2: bad will tariff tensions be with Scotus justices. He's been

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Speaker 2: openly furious about last week's Supreme Court ruling on Tariff's

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Speaker 2: and He's Entitled to Me, which invalidated levies that he

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Speaker 2: had imposed under the International Emergency Economic Powers Act. Then

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Speaker 2: how fervently does he defend ice. That'll be interesting to watch.

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Speaker 2: My guess is that he's going to soft peddle it.

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Speaker 2: And I guess, so what is the midterm message? There

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Speaker 2: have been rumblings of discontent, even in the conservative world

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Speaker 2: about the degree in which Trump's stranger fixations distract him

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Speaker 2: from the more pressing concerns. For example, even many Republicans

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Speaker 2: are skeptical that the question of whether the US controls

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Speaker 2: Greenland will be uppermost invoters' mines in November. So one

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Speaker 2: key question is whether Trump can deliver a pithy campaign message. Then, finally,

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Speaker 2: what do the Democrats do in response? This year, the

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Speaker 2: newly elected Virginia Governor, Abigail Spanburger will give the official rebuttal.

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Speaker 2: That will be interesting because already she's in trouble financially

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Speaker 2: and taxing all and sundry, raising taxes, all in sundry

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Speaker 2: about all and sundry things, So that will be intriguing.

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Speaker 2: I find them boring usually, and OLICHA know next week

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Speaker 2: how I felt about this one. Now before we proceed,

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Speaker 2: just one more thing. It's a very local thing, but

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Speaker 2: I think most people around the country would understand it,

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Speaker 2: if not having experienced, they can certainly imagine that is

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Speaker 2: the goings on about the rough sleepers. Now, it doesn't

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Speaker 2: matter whether it's down Queen Street in Auckland in front

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Speaker 2: of all the billion dollar shops, or whether it's a

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Speaker 2: park in the suburbs or anywhere in between. But all

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Speaker 2: of a sudden things have changed. There is and we

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Speaker 2: know this, there is a very large increase in those

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Speaker 2: sleeping in sleeping bags, sleeping in cars, sleeping in buses.

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Speaker 2: Guess who has one outside their house frequently And it

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Speaker 2: is not to be tolerated. And anybody who makes an

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Speaker 2: excuse for it is probably guilty of the reason that's

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Speaker 2: happening in the first place, because there should not be

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Speaker 2: any reason why these people are where they are. The

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Speaker 2: question is who's responsible for it? Now? After the discussion

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Speaker 2: to follow, it's the mail room as always, and at

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Speaker 2: the back end of podcasts three one seven there's a

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Speaker 2: lengthy contribution from the anonymous but known to me, the

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Speaker 2: anonymous former National Party MP, and it's a little bit fiery.

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Speaker 2: But next it's Professor Allen Buccolan is a natural oral

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Speaker 2: vaccine in a tablet form called bacterial nicate. It'll boost

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Speaker 2: your natural protection against bacterial infections in your chest and throat.

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Speaker 2: A three day course of seven Buckland tablets will help

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Speaker 2: your body build up to three months of immunity against

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Speaker 2: bugs which cause bacterial cold symptoms. So who can take

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Speaker 2: buccolan well, the whole family From two years of age

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Speaker 2: and upwards. A course of Buckelan tablets offers cost effective

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Speaker 2: and safe protection from colds and chills. Protection becomes effective

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Speaker 2: a few days after you take buccolan and lasts for

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Speaker 2: up to three months following the three day course. Buccolan

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Speaker 2: can be taken throughout the cold season, over winter or

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Speaker 2: all the year round. And remember Buckelan is not intended

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Speaker 2: as an alternative to influenza vaccination, but may be used

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Speaker 2: along with the flu vaccination for added protection. And keep

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Speaker 2: in mind that millions of doses have been taken by

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Speaker 2: Kiwi's for over fifty years. Only available from your pharmacist.

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Speaker 2: Always read the label and users directed and see your

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Speaker 2: doctor if systems persist. Farmer Broker Auckland Layton Smith Professa

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Speaker 2: James Allen holds the oldest named chair of the University

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Speaker 2: of Queensland before arriving in Australia in February of two

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Speaker 2: thousand and five. He spent eleven years teaching law in

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Speaker 2: New Zealand at the University of Otago, and before that

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Speaker 2: lectured law in Hong Kong. Professor Allen is a native

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Speaker 2: born Canadian who practiced law in a large Toronto firm

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Speaker 2: and then at the bar in London before shifting to

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Speaker 2: teaching law. He's published widely in the areas of legal

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Speaker 2: philosophy and constitutional law, including in all the top English

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Speaker 2: language legal philosophy journals in the US, the UK, Canada

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Speaker 2: and Australia. It's great to have you back. If you've

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Speaker 2: written for all those journals, you must have been working

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Speaker 2: very hard.

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Speaker 3: Well, it depends what you mean. If you mean working

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Speaker 3: hard by academic standards, maybe, but compared to being a lawyer.

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Speaker 3: Don't let any academic tell you they work hard. So

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Speaker 3: I can say, you know, nothing was worse than the

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Speaker 3: six minute time slights of a big firm where you're

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Speaker 3: trying to hit and I think it's like twenty one

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Speaker 3: hundred billible hours a year. It just wasn't really possible,

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Speaker 3: and it was brutal so that was hard work this year,

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Speaker 3: actually doing something that occasionally you're interested in. And so no,

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Speaker 3: I don't think I don't think any academic really works

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Speaker 3: out hard.

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Speaker 2: So this conversation I wouldn't have had you on quite

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Speaker 2: this early, because we replayed your last one in the

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Speaker 2: holiday period over Christmas, and I would have left it

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Speaker 2: a little longer. Now, I say that with justification because

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Speaker 2: there I was on January twenty four, just having touchdown

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Speaker 2: at Kingsford Smith Airport in Sydney, and we hadn't we

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Speaker 2: hadn't even pulled up properly when I turned the phone on,

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Speaker 2: and it went straight to a text that had just

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Speaker 2: the right what I had derived right then from you

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Speaker 2: with regard to a book that you were writing an

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Speaker 2: appraisal of, and you were writing it for an American

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Speaker 2: crowd called it's a US law journal called Constitutional Commentary.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, it's the big US constitutional law publication.

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Speaker 2: Yes, well, I got a question to ask you about

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Speaker 2: that in the second But as it happened, it was

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Speaker 2: a very short conversation. You were leaving for Jamaica in

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Speaker 2: a couple of days. I was in Sydney for two weeks,

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Speaker 2: and so we got together a few days ago, and

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Speaker 2: the organized what we're going to talk about in just

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Speaker 2: a second. This book six hundred pages. Long before we

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Speaker 2: announce the name of it, Can I just ask you

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Speaker 2: how long it took you to read this book?

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Speaker 3: Well, I was reading it on and off for maybe

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Speaker 3: two weeks. I'd read a chapter or two and then

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Speaker 3: leave it for day, and then another chapter two. It's

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Speaker 3: just an excellent book. It's depressing but mesmerizing.

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Speaker 2: Well, it's also very closely printed, so the six hundred

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Speaker 2: pages would probably turn out to be I reckon about

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Speaker 2: one thousand if it was in normal space print. However,

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Speaker 2: the book is called Rogue Justice, The Rise of Judicial

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Speaker 2: Supremacy in Israel by one Jonathan Green, and it is

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Speaker 2: for anybody who's not interested in Israel or the Middle East,

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Speaker 2: or law or shall we say corruption and the things

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Speaker 2: that go on behind the scenes. You're not interested in it,

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Speaker 2: see you later, because this book is fascinating and Jim

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Speaker 2: has done an extremely good job of writing a nineteen

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Speaker 2: page appraisal which is probably going to be published any

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Speaker 2: day now. So let's start at the back. Shall we

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Speaker 2: just tell us what we're going to find out in

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Speaker 2: the next little while, and why it's important.

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Speaker 3: Okay, so then some context. I might have mentioned this

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Speaker 3: in the past, but over the last thirty or forty years,

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Speaker 3: judges around the common law world. It's a little different

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Speaker 3: in civilian Roman law systems, but around the common law world,

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Speaker 3: and this is pretty much without exceptions save for the Americans,

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Speaker 3: the very special case. We have seen an ever increasing

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Speaker 3: willingness by unelected judges to second guests or game say,

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Speaker 3: the elected legislature of the elected government. And they do

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Speaker 3: it in various ways. They adopt what I would say

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Speaker 3: are completely implausibleroach approaches to interpreting the legal text. If

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Speaker 3: they have an entrenched bill of rights the way Canada does,

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Speaker 3: they just will invalidate statutes. If they have a statutory

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Speaker 3: bill of rights the way Britain or New Zealand does,

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Speaker 3: then they read the reading down provision to basically deliver

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Speaker 3: interpretive outcomes that are that no one intended except for

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Speaker 3: the judges. So this sort of inflation of judicial power

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Speaker 3: is going on everywhere in the commonwaw world. You saw

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Speaker 3: it in New Zealand loads that case where the judges

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Speaker 3: just tortured every known method of interpretation to say that

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Speaker 3: sixteen year olds could vote was laughable. But what this

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Speaker 3: book does is to show that the Israeli judges are

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Speaker 3: the worst or if you like, if you don't like

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Speaker 3: democracy and you like elite judges deciding things, and the

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Speaker 3: Israeli judges are the best for you. But he just

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Speaker 3: runs through how the Israeli judges took a jurisdiction which

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Speaker 3: is effective, which was effectively like New Zealand, it had

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Speaker 3: no written constitution, it had inherited the British parliamentary sovereignty

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Speaker 3: set up, so again no written constitution, no document that

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Speaker 3: the judges could use to hold legislation up against the

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Speaker 3: way they do in the US or Canada and say,

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Speaker 3: you know, the statute breach is one of the constitutional

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Speaker 3: provisions that have any of that. And over the course

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Speaker 3: of twenty or thirty years, the judges just gave themselves

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Speaker 3: the power to override and strike down and invalidate the

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Speaker 3: statutes of the Knesset based on what based on their

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Speaker 3: own sense of what's morally and politically proper, and then

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Speaker 3: it just keeps getting worse and worse. They have engineered

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Speaker 3: a system where they have an effective veto on who

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Speaker 3: the government can appoint to the Supreme Court. I mean,

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Speaker 3: the book just goes through, detailed by detail, all the

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Speaker 3: ways in which you've effectively, in slow motion, over thirty years,

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Speaker 3: had this judicial coup. And I need to say for listeners,

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Speaker 3: if we leave aside the judiciary in Israel. I am

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Speaker 3: an open and proud supporter of Israel. I am no

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Speaker 3: critic of the Israelis. I see them as a small

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Speaker 3: island of democracy surrounded by countries and people that want

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Speaker 3: to eradicate them from the face of the earth. I

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Speaker 3: think they have been far more restrained dealing with being

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Speaker 3: attacked than say Britain and the US and the Allies, Canada,

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Speaker 3: New Zealand Australia in the Second World War. You know,

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Speaker 3: as as Douglas Murray says, starting wars have consequences, and

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Speaker 3: one of the consequences in World War Two is that

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Speaker 3: Winston Churchill leveled Dresden to the ground and the Americans

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Speaker 3: drop two nuclear bombs on Japan. Israel is meticulous and

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Speaker 3: trying to make sure that they're not bombing schools and hospitals.

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Speaker 3: Sometimes they do, but largely always that's because you know,

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Speaker 3: Hamas has people stationed there sending out rocket They are

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Speaker 3: much more careful than the West ever was when the

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Speaker 3: West was threatened. And I admire Israel. I like their patriotism.

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Speaker 3: I like their sense of you know, trying to make

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Speaker 3: a go of it in a hostile area. And you know,

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Speaker 3: they have have been a remarkable success. They have twenty

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Speaker 3: percent of their population or Arabs who don't want to

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Speaker 3: leave because they have a more liberal rights respecting So

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Speaker 3: I'm not I'm not just the prefaces. I'm not someone

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Speaker 3: who comes out and tries to find criticisms of Israel everywhere.

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Speaker 3: But their top judiciary is completely out of control. And

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Speaker 3: this is in the context where you know New Zealand's

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Speaker 3: is out of control, but not like Israel. The only

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Speaker 3: in the world that gives Israel run for its money

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Speaker 3: in terms of out of control whose grouping judges is India.

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Speaker 3: So you know, that would be a different discussion. You

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Speaker 3: could argue which is worth I think Israel's is worst,

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Speaker 3: but they've put the government in a position where it's

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Speaker 3: impossible to reply. They can't even try to fix the

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Speaker 3: problem by judges will take a you know, the book

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Speaker 3: starts with The book starts in the first chapter with

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Speaker 3: the story of a woman who was one of the

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Speaker 3: most credentialed legal academics and lawyers, and she was a

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Speaker 3: skeptic of how far the judges had gone. And then

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Speaker 3: the main judge, the sort of Robin Cook of Israel,

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Speaker 3: heard Baraq. He just he and the Supreme Court just

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Speaker 3: blocked her from being put on the court. Now can

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Speaker 3: you imagine in the US if the judges could tell

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Speaker 3: a president and the Senate who's going to be on

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Speaker 3: the court, or even in Britain or in Australia. It's

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Speaker 3: flatly outrageous. And so the book, I mean, we want

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Speaker 3: have time to cover all the ways in which and

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Speaker 3: it's not just the judges, of course, in Israel, it's

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Speaker 3: the lawyerly cast because overwhelmingly lawyers prefer judges to be

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Speaker 3: making the social policy decisions. They yeah, I mean this

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Speaker 3: sounds weird, but I think as a bland, as a

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Speaker 3: sort of gross generalization, the lawyerally caste has sort of

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Speaker 3: lost faith in majoritarian democracy. And the way they drive

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Speaker 3: this involves a number I think, one of which is

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Speaker 3: they they take the phrase that we all sort of

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Speaker 3: emotively are attracted to the rule of law and they

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Speaker 3: sort of turn it into anything. The judge says is

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Speaker 3: the equivalent to the rule of law. They turn the

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Speaker 3: rule of law into effectively rule by judges. They make

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Speaker 3: it impossible for you to say, well, what those judges

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Speaker 3: did is such a such an egregious misreading of the

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Speaker 3: statute that you know, it's it's an outrage no. And

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Speaker 3: then they also do it, you know, they play this

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Speaker 3: exact same Penn and Teller type ga what does it

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Speaker 3: mean to call a jurist democracy? And for most of

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Speaker 3: history democracy was a majoritarian, procedural sort of idea where

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Speaker 3: you have ruled by the people, where you count everyone

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Speaker 3: equally and it's you know, more beats fewer. It's a

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Speaker 3: it's a sort of letting the numbers count type set up.

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Speaker 3: And they they infuse the idea of demollis moral substantive outcomes,

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Speaker 3: so that if you don't deliver outcomes that are morally

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Speaker 3: acceptable to the judges, they deem you not to be

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Speaker 3: a democracy. And so you know, nine judges can overrule

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Speaker 3: an entire country because they say, well, you know, the

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Speaker 3: moral that it doesn't count as democracy, and that that

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Speaker 3: game is being played by the way in all sorts

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Speaker 3: of other jurisdictions. They just haven't taken it to the

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Speaker 3: extent that they haven't. There's but there's plenty of there's

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Speaker 3: one or two well known writers in New Zealand who

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Speaker 3: play the let's let's you know, make all these concepts

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Speaker 3: morally pregnant. And then so you take a procedural understanding

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Speaker 3: of the rule of law or the procedure understand the markety,

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Speaker 3: and you stuff it with every moral outcome you like,

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Speaker 3: and those outcomes already achieved, you just start showed in

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Speaker 3: from the rooftop. It's not the rule of what It's garbage,

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Speaker 3: by the way, But that's what they've done in Israel.

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Speaker 2: All right. So there's one obvious question that comes to mind,

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Speaker 2: that is the judges have taken over the elected governments.

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Speaker 2: I don't know, you're going to tell me in a moment.

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Speaker 2: I'm sure how they deal with this one way or

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Speaker 2: the other. But doesn't the elected prime minister have al

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Speaker 2: mighty power over just about everything else. And when judges

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Speaker 2: run a mock and go astray, what is stopping the government,

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Speaker 2: the cabinet, the prime minister from ordering the military to

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Speaker 2: go and take care of things?

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Speaker 3: Well, I guess, I guess if you're saying, could they

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Speaker 3: order the military to go and arrest the judges that

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Speaker 3: I guess, I mean, nobody wants to go down that road.

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Speaker 3: I haven't mentioned that the Israeli top judges have also

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Speaker 3: given themselves a veto over who gets the top civil

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Speaker 3: service appointments, even to the Secret Service, if they don't

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Speaker 3: like a government appointee. And basically what they don't seem

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Speaker 3: to like is anyone who's a skeptic of judicial power.

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Speaker 3: They just don't let that person become appointed. And you know,

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Speaker 3: so it's easy to say, what, we'll elect the government

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Speaker 3: now the net and Yahoo government, and you know, I

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Speaker 3: understand that a lot of people don't like Benjamin Nett

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Speaker 3: and Yahoo, but he did try to organize. So one

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Speaker 3: of the things they did is they just took these

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Speaker 3: statutes in the nineteen seventies have been called basic laws,

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Speaker 3: although they were just regularly past statutes.

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Speaker 2: You're rising ahead of me, okay.

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Speaker 3: So a few years back in twenty twenty four, the

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Speaker 3: government tried to pass a basic law saying or we're

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Speaker 3: changing all of this, and the judges struck that statue

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Speaker 3: down having said that these basic laws, which you know

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Speaker 3: it had been a false draps operation. So the government

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Speaker 3: played the judges game past one of those and said, okay,

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Speaker 3: we're using one of these to wind you judges back

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Speaker 3: a bit, and the judges invalidated that statute. So I

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Speaker 3: don't know what recourse they have who tried to organize

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Speaker 3: a sort of I mean, I don't know what you do.

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Speaker 3: I suppose you could call a referendum. What they're going

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Speaker 3: to need to do is to start calling out the

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Speaker 3: judges as undemocratic and sort of elitist philosopher kings. But again,

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Speaker 3: you have the same problem in Israeli you have everywhere else.

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Speaker 3: You have sort of This isn't going to surprise everyone.

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Speaker 3: The outcomes that the judges are imposing are left of

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Speaker 3: center outcomes. He goes through that in the book too.

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Speaker 3: The left wing establishment, the public broadcasters, the civil service,

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Speaker 3: they are a majority, they are a minority of the population.

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Speaker 3: They are losing elections, but with the judiciary, they are

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Speaker 3: winning the outcomes. Because you know, when you know who

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Speaker 3: tried to do something about this, you had all of

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Speaker 3: the organs of sort of elitist establishment power come out

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Speaker 3: against him. Very hard to deal with that.

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Speaker 2: Can I can I just quite something? This is out

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Speaker 2: of came out of a springer. The Swiss publisher out

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Speaker 2: of that stable. Israel has no written constitution, but it

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Speaker 2: does have extended constitutional arrangements, namely the basic laws, constitutional

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Speaker 2: rulings of the Supreme Court, and the binding norms that

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Speaker 2: have evolved over the years. Therefore, a working in quotes,

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Speaker 2: working constitution exists in the material in Brackett's essential sense,

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Speaker 2: that is, arrangements that derive from the existing social and

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Speaker 2: political reality. And if Israel does have such a constitution,

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Speaker 2: why has it not contributed more to the stability of

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Speaker 2: the political system, the rule of law, or at least

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Speaker 2: the legality of the government itself. Debates continues concerning the

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Speaker 2: status of the basic laws, constitutional areas not covered by them,

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Speaker 2: such as human rights and religious affairs, and the constitutional

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Speaker 2: status of the Supreme Court. Would a formal constitutional structure

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Speaker 2: contribute to strengthening democracy in Israel? Question Mark, you say.

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Speaker 3: Well, I mean, I think, first off, it's wrong at

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Speaker 3: the What Jonitan Green does is he goes back and

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Speaker 3: looks at some of the original basic laws. They were

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Speaker 3: passed in the exact ordinary way of a statute. They

358
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Speaker 3: didn't get a supermajority the way you normally bring in

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Speaker 3: a written constitution. Some of them dealt with the most

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Speaker 3: pedestrian things. I can't remember, but you know, like bylaws

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Speaker 3: type stuffy, the basic laws. It was just a phrase

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Speaker 3: they used for some laws. It didn't indicate anything that

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Speaker 3: they were dealing with, you know, really important rates, respecting matters.

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Speaker 3: And that went on for decades, and then Baroque, the

365
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Speaker 3: sort of king of the activist judges started claiming that

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Speaker 3: because they had the label basic laws, the judges could

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Speaker 3: use some of those to affect their interpretation of other statutes.

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Speaker 3: And again the way Green goes through it, no one

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Speaker 3: intended it. The kinds of basic laws don't support that,

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Speaker 3: but they did this, and over time they just started

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Speaker 3: striking down all sorts of statutes. But they had never

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Speaker 3: struck down a basic law, so that up until two

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Speaker 3: years ago, it was always sort of an underlying assumption that, well,

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Speaker 3: if the government was to they can just call something

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Speaker 3: a basic law, play the game the judges have created,

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Speaker 3: and just by calling it a basic law, the judge.

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Speaker 3: Since the judges had used these so called basic laws

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Speaker 3: to give themselves all this power. And of course, in

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Speaker 3: twenty twenty four, I think it was a nine to

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Speaker 3: eight decision, the Israeli Supreme Court struck down a basic

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Speaker 3: law based on what again, there's no written constitution. They

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Speaker 3: had created this bogus edifice by pointing to these things,

383
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Speaker 3: and then when the government used one of them, so

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Speaker 3: they effectively have invalidated a law based on their own

385
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Speaker 3: sense of what is appropriate, which is the very definition

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Speaker 3: of not a democracy. And remember when these judges say

387
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Speaker 3: they don't like, you know, letting the numbers count, they

388
00:24:48,973 --> 00:24:52,813
Speaker 3: don't like majoritarianism. There's more to the world than majoritarianism.

389
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Speaker 3: Every judicial decision is the most majoritarian thing ever. Nine

390
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Speaker 3: votes beat eight, five beats four, three beats two. It

391
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Speaker 3: doesn't matter about the quality of your judgment, it doesn't

392
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Speaker 3: matter about who has written the more convincing argument. Numbers

393
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Speaker 3: are all that matter when it comes to higher courts.

394
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Speaker 3: And you know, so they are the most majority in institutions,

395
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Speaker 3: majoritarian institutions in the world. And yet they point to

396
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Speaker 3: the elected legislature and they say, oh, well, there's a

397
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Speaker 3: lot more into the world than just, you know, letting

398
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Speaker 3: the numbers count. I disagree right at the first I'm

399
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Speaker 3: a majoritaire and I don't think it's perfect, but there's

400
00:25:32,053 --> 00:25:35,733
Speaker 3: no better system than just counting everyone equally in voting.

401
00:25:35,733 --> 00:25:37,373
Speaker 3: It's going to get it wrong a lot of times,

402
00:25:37,813 --> 00:25:40,173
Speaker 3: but it's going to get it right more than any

403
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Speaker 3: other system. And you always have recourse and you have accountability,

404
00:25:44,173 --> 00:25:47,533
Speaker 3: and you have no accountability to judges. And they, you know,

405
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Speaker 3: they I've lived my life in this sort of milieu,

406
00:25:51,813 --> 00:25:54,973
Speaker 3: and these the thing about being a top judge in

407
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Speaker 3: New Zealand or Australia or they are setted as though

408
00:26:00,573 --> 00:26:03,373
Speaker 3: they were minor royalty because all of the people with

409
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Speaker 3: whom they associate, the barristers, they earn their living appearing

410
00:26:06,413 --> 00:26:10,573
Speaker 3: in front of these people. Thought, tell someone what you

411
00:26:10,693 --> 00:26:13,893
Speaker 3: honestly think of their views if the next day you'll

412
00:26:13,933 --> 00:26:16,253
Speaker 3: have a million dollar case in front of them. So

413
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Speaker 3: they are the worst sort of Uriah heap flattery and

414
00:26:22,613 --> 00:26:25,173
Speaker 3: then for many of them it goes to their head. Now,

415
00:26:25,173 --> 00:26:27,493
Speaker 3: you know, there's the odd judge who realizes this is

416
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Speaker 3: all just garbage. They're treating me like this because they

417
00:26:29,613 --> 00:26:33,493
Speaker 3: have to professionally. So these people become so inflated with

418
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Speaker 3: their own worth, their own you know, and they lose

419
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Speaker 3: track of the fact that they ought not to be

420
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Speaker 3: making these decisions. And nobody would take moral advice from

421
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Speaker 3: a lawyer. I mean, let's be honest. Now, not to

422
00:26:47,933 --> 00:26:50,893
Speaker 3: say there aren't some great lawyers out there, but on average,

423
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Speaker 3: why would anyone think that a plumber is any less

424
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Speaker 3: morally worthy than a lawyer. And there's no answer to that.

425
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Speaker 3: So there's the problem is they lose connection with their

426
00:27:03,093 --> 00:27:06,973
Speaker 3: own fallibility, I think, and I'm generalizing their exceptions. Now,

427
00:27:06,973 --> 00:27:11,373
Speaker 3: antonin Scalia was always making it plain that his more

428
00:27:11,453 --> 00:27:13,773
Speaker 3: he didn't think his moral views were any better than

429
00:27:13,773 --> 00:27:16,093
Speaker 3: anyone else's. But a lot of judges if he catched

430
00:27:16,093 --> 00:27:18,933
Speaker 3: them over drinks, or top lawyers the head of the bar,

431
00:27:18,973 --> 00:27:22,293
Speaker 3: associated catch them over drinks when no one's around, and

432
00:27:22,333 --> 00:27:24,693
Speaker 3: they just have contempt for the average lawyer or the

433
00:27:24,733 --> 00:27:27,493
Speaker 3: average order. That's nice.

434
00:27:28,253 --> 00:27:32,653
Speaker 2: Yeah, Chapters one and the final chapter are the two

435
00:27:32,693 --> 00:27:35,053
Speaker 2: most important in the book. You could you could actually

436
00:27:35,093 --> 00:27:37,333
Speaker 2: skip a lot of the middle stuff if you wanted.

437
00:27:38,333 --> 00:27:42,693
Speaker 2: But the introduction, and I should add here that I

438
00:27:42,813 --> 00:27:47,413
Speaker 2: ordered the book on Monday of last week and there

439
00:27:47,493 --> 00:27:50,293
Speaker 2: was due on Friday, didn't come on Friday, come on Thursday,

440
00:27:50,373 --> 00:27:54,813
Speaker 2: which isn't bad. Pretty good, and it's not a cheap book,

441
00:27:55,013 --> 00:27:58,333
Speaker 2: but it's it's one that hooks you. And the introduction

442
00:27:58,453 --> 00:28:03,973
Speaker 2: itself did exactly that, and that's where the author opens

443
00:28:04,053 --> 00:28:07,693
Speaker 2: up with the story. I'm tempted to read it now,

444
00:28:07,933 --> 00:28:11,973
Speaker 2: but I'm leave it till after we've finished and included later.

445
00:28:12,293 --> 00:28:14,573
Speaker 2: But it stuts like this. On a Sunday September morning

446
00:28:14,573 --> 00:28:17,613
Speaker 2: in the fall of twenty twenty three, fifteen justices of

447
00:28:17,653 --> 00:28:20,493
Speaker 2: the Supreme Court of Israel filed into the Court's main chambers.

448
00:28:21,253 --> 00:28:24,093
Speaker 2: The stakes were as high as they had ever been.

449
00:28:24,813 --> 00:28:28,053
Speaker 2: The drama and tension in the room was palpable against

450
00:28:28,133 --> 00:28:31,133
Speaker 2: the backdrop of a government led effort at reforming the

451
00:28:31,173 --> 00:28:35,373
Speaker 2: Israeli judiciary and of a parallel and unprecedented mass protest

452
00:28:35,453 --> 00:28:39,333
Speaker 2: movement against the proposed reform measures. The court would now

453
00:28:39,413 --> 00:28:43,453
Speaker 2: hear oral arguments. This is quite stunning. Would hear oral

454
00:28:43,653 --> 00:28:47,933
Speaker 2: arguments challenging or defending the constitutionality of an amendment to

455
00:28:48,093 --> 00:28:50,573
Speaker 2: Israel's basic law the judiciary.

456
00:28:51,133 --> 00:28:53,333
Speaker 3: It was a pretty moderate winding back of what the

457
00:28:53,373 --> 00:28:55,413
Speaker 3: judges had done, too. It wasn't trying to take them

458
00:28:55,453 --> 00:28:58,093
Speaker 3: back in nineteen seventy the way I would, I would

459
00:28:58,173 --> 00:29:00,933
Speaker 3: be trying to go back to parliamentary sovereignty. I wasn't

460
00:29:00,933 --> 00:29:04,773
Speaker 3: even trying to do that, And of course, you find

461
00:29:04,773 --> 00:29:07,573
Speaker 3: out at the end that the judges struck this down.

462
00:29:08,453 --> 00:29:12,213
Speaker 3: The interesting things talking to a couple of American buddies

463
00:29:12,253 --> 00:29:17,253
Speaker 3: who are law professors and Jewish, you have the left

464
00:29:17,333 --> 00:29:21,293
Speaker 3: right political problem in Israel as one overlay, and these

465
00:29:21,373 --> 00:29:24,933
Speaker 3: judges are overwhelmably left leaning. But you also have a

466
00:29:24,973 --> 00:29:27,413
Speaker 3: second thing that the author of this book is careful

467
00:29:27,453 --> 00:29:30,653
Speaker 3: not to go into. But my friends in the US

468
00:29:30,693 --> 00:29:33,973
Speaker 3: say this is also going on, which is that you

469
00:29:34,053 --> 00:29:36,893
Speaker 3: have the Ashkenazi Jews, mostly coming out of Europe, and

470
00:29:36,933 --> 00:29:40,453
Speaker 3: you have the Sephardic Jews mostly coming out of Africa.

471
00:29:41,053 --> 00:29:44,373
Speaker 3: And for all of the early years of Israel from

472
00:29:44,413 --> 00:29:47,493
Speaker 3: independence and what was it forty nine, I forget nineteen

473
00:29:47,533 --> 00:29:50,693
Speaker 3: forty eight or nineteen forty nine, even though they have

474
00:29:50,973 --> 00:29:56,133
Speaker 3: an incredibly proportional voting system, the Labor Party, which was

475
00:29:56,173 --> 00:29:59,493
Speaker 3: the party of the sort of Ashkenazi Jews who had

476
00:29:59,493 --> 00:30:01,973
Speaker 3: fled out of Europe, they won all the elections. They

477
00:30:02,013 --> 00:30:05,533
Speaker 3: didn't win them by themselves, but they won them vast preponderance.

478
00:30:05,573 --> 00:30:09,053
Speaker 3: Of this they won the plurality of the seats, and

479
00:30:09,093 --> 00:30:11,173
Speaker 3: then the couple of little parties would keep them in power,

480
00:30:11,813 --> 00:30:15,013
Speaker 3: and for decades the sort of Labor Party, which was

481
00:30:15,053 --> 00:30:18,653
Speaker 3: the party of these Ashkenazi Jews. All the Kibbutz's were

482
00:30:18,693 --> 00:30:23,213
Speaker 3: left wing. They would win. And then enough Sephardic Jews

483
00:30:23,213 --> 00:30:26,693
Speaker 3: came into Israel that they started winning elections. And so

484
00:30:26,813 --> 00:30:29,333
Speaker 3: another way you can understand what's happening in Israel. This

485
00:30:29,373 --> 00:30:32,173
Speaker 3: isn't in the book, let me remind you, but according

486
00:30:32,173 --> 00:30:35,933
Speaker 3: to my American friends, is that it's sort of a

487
00:30:36,013 --> 00:30:41,533
Speaker 3: rear guard action by the sort of the powerful elites

488
00:30:41,613 --> 00:30:49,413
Speaker 3: of the Ashkenazi sort of world against the growing democratic

489
00:30:50,013 --> 00:30:53,093
Speaker 3: or majoritarian power of the Sephardic Jews, a lot of

490
00:30:53,093 --> 00:30:59,013
Speaker 3: whom are Orthodox Jews. They have big families. The Ashkenazis

491
00:30:59,013 --> 00:31:01,533
Speaker 3: have small families, and you know, they're looking at the

492
00:31:01,573 --> 00:31:04,773
Speaker 3: way things are and they see no prospect of winning elections.

493
00:31:05,733 --> 00:31:09,773
Speaker 3: You know, nat Yahoo wins large on the Sephardic and

494
00:31:09,853 --> 00:31:12,053
Speaker 3: other you know, Russian vote and things like that. Now,

495
00:31:12,093 --> 00:31:14,693
Speaker 3: I don't know that is Green doesn't talk about that

496
00:31:14,733 --> 00:31:16,973
Speaker 3: in this book, but that's another overlay. You've got the

497
00:31:17,533 --> 00:31:20,533
Speaker 3: left right overlay where the judge is overwhelmingly or in

498
00:31:20,573 --> 00:31:24,653
Speaker 3: the left wing political camp I don't like, uh, you know,

499
00:31:24,813 --> 00:31:29,093
Speaker 3: and then you have this Ashkenazi the fartic to sort

500
00:31:29,093 --> 00:31:33,653
Speaker 3: of split. So all that's interesting, but whatever the actual

501
00:31:35,253 --> 00:31:39,453
Speaker 3: contributing causes are the fact that unelected judges would just

502
00:31:39,453 --> 00:31:42,013
Speaker 3: start striking down statutes and they can't point to a

503
00:31:42,093 --> 00:31:46,493
Speaker 3: legal text. You know that this is incredible. The Canadian

504
00:31:46,573 --> 00:31:50,773
Speaker 3: judges can point to the Canadian Constitution and the Charter.

505
00:31:50,933 --> 00:31:54,133
Speaker 3: Now I think often their reading of the Charter is

506
00:31:54,293 --> 00:31:56,653
Speaker 3: a deliberate law in effect, and they know that the

507
00:31:56,733 --> 00:31:58,813
Speaker 3: Charter doesn't give it, but at least there's something they

508
00:31:58,813 --> 00:32:01,653
Speaker 3: can point to and say, this is the source of

509
00:32:01,693 --> 00:32:06,653
Speaker 3: my legitimacy for invalidating the statute. It's like they are

510
00:32:06,653 --> 00:32:10,053
Speaker 3: living in an unwritten constitution and will set up. There

511
00:32:10,133 --> 00:32:13,853
Speaker 3: is absolutely no written text that's purporting in any way

512
00:32:13,853 --> 00:32:15,773
Speaker 3: to give them these powers, and they're doing it anyway,

513
00:32:16,053 --> 00:32:19,053
Speaker 3: I mean, And so what can you say other than

514
00:32:19,893 --> 00:32:23,253
Speaker 3: you know, what ought we to do? And then when

515
00:32:23,653 --> 00:32:28,013
Speaker 3: unity tries to do anything, the forces of the elite establishment,

516
00:32:28,173 --> 00:32:30,373
Speaker 3: you know, right out onto the streets.

517
00:32:31,173 --> 00:32:33,413
Speaker 2: Well after what you said about the secret service and

518
00:32:34,093 --> 00:32:37,933
Speaker 2: et cetera. And the judges themselves are making the appointments

519
00:32:37,933 --> 00:32:38,733
Speaker 2: at the top.

520
00:32:39,213 --> 00:32:42,253
Speaker 3: Well they don't make the appointment they veto any appointment

521
00:32:42,293 --> 00:32:44,053
Speaker 3: they don't like, which are most of the same thing?

522
00:32:44,773 --> 00:32:46,653
Speaker 3: You keep appointing untill they like one of them.

523
00:32:46,933 --> 00:32:52,853
Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, So let's put Israel and New Zealand side

524
00:32:52,853 --> 00:32:58,093
Speaker 2: by side. What's the difference and what is they're stopping

525
00:32:58,733 --> 00:33:02,933
Speaker 2: the judiciary here from following a similar part.

526
00:33:05,213 --> 00:33:07,893
Speaker 3: I just think the culture is one that they wouldn't

527
00:33:07,933 --> 00:33:11,373
Speaker 3: do it. I mean, I'm not a big jet I

528
00:33:11,413 --> 00:33:14,893
Speaker 3: think they're activists, but in the face of a blunt

529
00:33:14,893 --> 00:33:19,333
Speaker 3: statute by the legislature, I don't believe. I mean, if

530
00:33:19,373 --> 00:33:21,573
Speaker 3: it were ever going to happen in New Zealand, it

531
00:33:21,933 --> 00:33:27,133
Speaker 3: would be done through the vehicle of making claims about

532
00:33:27,133 --> 00:33:29,573
Speaker 3: what the Treaty of Whitangy requires. They would all be

533
00:33:29,693 --> 00:33:32,813
Speaker 3: fake and obviously false claims, but they would point to

534
00:33:32,893 --> 00:33:37,853
Speaker 3: some text like the Treaty of Waitangy. Now, I just

535
00:33:37,893 --> 00:33:42,333
Speaker 3: think the legal culture in New Zealand wouldn't allow it.

536
00:33:42,333 --> 00:33:45,093
Speaker 3: It certainly wouldn't allow it in Britain. And those are

537
00:33:45,133 --> 00:33:47,933
Speaker 3: the you know, we're talking about the three countries that

538
00:33:48,053 --> 00:33:54,893
Speaker 3: have the unwritten constitutional legacy. And then let's be honest,

539
00:33:54,973 --> 00:33:58,613
Speaker 3: if you look at the world's constitutional setups in the

540
00:33:58,613 --> 00:34:06,133
Speaker 3: democratic world, the two stellar longstanding constitutional arrangements that have

541
00:34:06,173 --> 00:34:08,333
Speaker 3: stood the test of time, that have been incredibly success

542
00:34:08,413 --> 00:34:13,813
Speaker 3: US will are a the British unwritten constitutional setup, where

543
00:34:14,373 --> 00:34:17,653
Speaker 3: parliamentary sovereignty and letting people vote lies at the heart

544
00:34:17,653 --> 00:34:21,493
Speaker 3: of the setup, and in theory there is no law

545
00:34:21,573 --> 00:34:24,973
Speaker 3: that the elected legislature could not pass, and your recourse

546
00:34:25,053 --> 00:34:29,053
Speaker 3: is always political and a reliance on the core shared

547
00:34:29,133 --> 00:34:33,973
Speaker 3: moral values of the elected politicians, which of course is

548
00:34:33,973 --> 00:34:37,893
Speaker 3: in contrast to the other great constitutional structure that the

549
00:34:38,333 --> 00:34:40,093
Speaker 3: time are coming up to two hundred and fifty years

550
00:34:40,093 --> 00:34:45,853
Speaker 3: for it, which is the Madisonian American checks and balances constitution.

551
00:34:45,933 --> 00:34:48,053
Speaker 3: It's often called the separation of powers, but I don't

552
00:34:48,053 --> 00:34:49,933
Speaker 3: think that's right. There's lots of ways in which there's

553
00:34:49,973 --> 00:34:53,693
Speaker 3: no separation of powers in the US. But Madison designed

554
00:34:53,693 --> 00:34:59,573
Speaker 3: a checks and balances of strong federalism. You have an

555
00:34:59,613 --> 00:35:04,813
Speaker 3: incredible powerful upper House, so they have strong biicameraism that

556
00:35:04,893 --> 00:35:08,293
Speaker 3: no other democracy really copied except for Australia. I mean,

557
00:35:08,453 --> 00:35:10,413
Speaker 3: nobody in the US wants to get elected to the

558
00:35:10,413 --> 00:35:12,933
Speaker 3: House of Representatives if they can get elected to the Senate.

559
00:35:12,973 --> 00:35:16,933
Speaker 3: So imagine preferring to be in the upper house where

560
00:35:17,453 --> 00:35:20,333
Speaker 3: you know the democratic legitimacy of the US Senate doesn't

561
00:35:20,333 --> 00:35:23,053
Speaker 3: look the House is you divide the whole country up

562
00:35:23,053 --> 00:35:26,853
Speaker 3: and each each district, each constituency has roughly the same

563
00:35:26,933 --> 00:35:32,053
Speaker 3: number of voters. The Senate. There's two senators from each state.

564
00:35:32,173 --> 00:35:35,093
Speaker 3: So if you're a Senator from the most populous state

565
00:35:35,093 --> 00:35:38,453
Speaker 3: of California, you're you know, your voters vote is worth

566
00:35:38,453 --> 00:35:40,893
Speaker 3: about one, I don't know, seventy sixth of what it

567
00:35:40,973 --> 00:35:43,733
Speaker 3: is in the least populous Wyoming. You know, the Senate

568
00:35:43,773 --> 00:35:46,853
Speaker 3: does not have very good democratic credentials compared to the House.

569
00:35:47,613 --> 00:35:49,813
Speaker 3: But nobody really copied that except for Australia.

570
00:35:50,413 --> 00:35:55,253
Speaker 2: So if I might point out, Astrada is still copying

571
00:35:56,013 --> 00:36:02,093
Speaker 2: because that California and Victoria are suffering from the same

572
00:36:02,213 --> 00:36:04,413
Speaker 2: sorts of punishment for their stupidity.

573
00:36:05,733 --> 00:36:09,333
Speaker 3: Yes, except that California pays the price. And and you know,

574
00:36:09,573 --> 00:36:12,933
Speaker 3: John Howard, for his many good things, was hopeless on federalism.

575
00:36:12,973 --> 00:36:17,213
Speaker 3: He was the most centralizing of the coalition Prime minister,

576
00:36:17,453 --> 00:36:20,813
Speaker 3: so he brought in work choices, which he says, so

577
00:36:20,893 --> 00:36:25,533
Speaker 3: effectively we have a nominally American version of federalism. But

578
00:36:25,893 --> 00:36:28,453
Speaker 3: over since about nineteen twenty, the High Court of Australia

579
00:36:28,493 --> 00:36:32,213
Speaker 3: has and I'm exaggerating slightly, but basically on every single

580
00:36:32,253 --> 00:36:34,973
Speaker 3: important case they side with the center. And so we

581
00:36:35,573 --> 00:36:37,933
Speaker 3: have the only states in the federalist world where the

582
00:36:37,973 --> 00:36:43,253
Speaker 3: states in effect have no income tax power all of

583
00:36:43,293 --> 00:36:45,813
Speaker 3: the if you enter into a treaty as the federal

584
00:36:45,893 --> 00:36:48,693
Speaker 3: government and just about any topic that becomes a federal

585
00:36:48,733 --> 00:36:51,573
Speaker 3: head of power. I mean, so we have the world's

586
00:36:51,573 --> 00:36:54,093
Speaker 3: worst vertical fiscal and balance. So the states are in

587
00:36:54,173 --> 00:36:57,653
Speaker 3: charge of education and health, but they can't raise any money.

588
00:36:57,933 --> 00:37:01,453
Speaker 3: So I mean, it's a disaster what has happened. And

589
00:37:02,013 --> 00:37:04,413
Speaker 3: Howard made it worse, and the GSTA made it worse,

590
00:37:04,973 --> 00:37:07,853
Speaker 3: and he brought in the GST, which gives money to

591
00:37:07,893 --> 00:37:12,013
Speaker 3: the state. But they use this basically marked formula. So

592
00:37:12,173 --> 00:37:16,813
Speaker 3: Victoria doesn't allow fracking. They are a complete basket case.

593
00:37:16,893 --> 00:37:19,893
Speaker 3: But at the end of every sort of cycle, you

594
00:37:19,933 --> 00:37:23,053
Speaker 3: sit down with all the GST money and you effectively

595
00:37:23,253 --> 00:37:29,333
Speaker 3: equalize the states. So Queensland allows cracking. It's entrepreneurial and

596
00:37:29,373 --> 00:37:32,133
Speaker 3: they have to give money, so that Victoria ends up

597
00:37:32,133 --> 00:37:34,933
Speaker 3: in more or less the same spot that doesn't happen

598
00:37:35,013 --> 00:37:38,093
Speaker 3: in the US, so Victoria doesn't really pay the cost

599
00:37:38,173 --> 00:37:40,213
Speaker 3: of having an insane lockdown pot and now they do

600
00:37:40,253 --> 00:37:43,293
Speaker 3: pay it a little I'm exaggerating slightly, but in the

601
00:37:43,413 --> 00:37:46,573
Speaker 3: US you have a massive outflow of people from California,

602
00:37:46,693 --> 00:37:50,133
Speaker 3: from New York, from Illinois, and they're all moving into

603
00:37:50,253 --> 00:37:54,773
Speaker 3: red states where there's low taxes. Well, in Australia, the

604
00:37:54,813 --> 00:37:57,333
Speaker 3: states can't set income tax, so there's no difference in

605
00:37:57,373 --> 00:38:01,173
Speaker 3: your tax rate. There's no competitional and sort of entrepreneurial

606
00:38:01,213 --> 00:38:06,453
Speaker 3: small government thing. So we not we the highest judges

607
00:38:06,453 --> 00:38:09,013
Speaker 3: in Australia have destroyed federalism, which the help of all

608
00:38:09,053 --> 00:38:12,813
Speaker 3: the central politicians. And the main job in a federal

609
00:38:12,853 --> 00:38:15,653
Speaker 3: system is for the judges to police the federal distribution

610
00:38:15,733 --> 00:38:19,173
Speaker 3: and powers, which they've done in Canada. I'm no fan

611
00:38:19,253 --> 00:38:23,413
Speaker 3: of Canadian judges, but on federalism, you know, provinces have

612
00:38:23,493 --> 00:38:27,813
Speaker 3: kept powers and for one hundred and five years in Australia,

613
00:38:27,853 --> 00:38:31,533
Speaker 3: since nineteen twenty, the states have been gutted so that

614
00:38:32,373 --> 00:38:34,013
Speaker 3: we have the worst of both worlds. We have a

615
00:38:34,053 --> 00:38:37,933
Speaker 3: centralized system with all these extra layers in government.

616
00:38:38,173 --> 00:38:40,213
Speaker 2: Well, if you've got the if you've got the worst

617
00:38:40,253 --> 00:38:42,933
Speaker 2: of the world, where would you put New Zealand.

618
00:38:44,493 --> 00:38:45,813
Speaker 3: Well, it depends what the question is.

619
00:38:46,693 --> 00:38:52,853
Speaker 2: The question is how does New Zealand's governance, how well

620
00:38:52,893 --> 00:38:57,173
Speaker 2: does it work by comparison with what it might might

621
00:38:57,413 --> 00:38:58,093
Speaker 2: otherwise be.

622
00:38:59,253 --> 00:39:01,653
Speaker 3: Okay, So you know, not every country is going to

623
00:39:01,693 --> 00:39:05,013
Speaker 3: be a federal system pretty much. You're looking at countries

624
00:39:05,053 --> 00:39:09,333
Speaker 3: that are geographically big. So when I size Australia, I'm

625
00:39:09,373 --> 00:39:13,093
Speaker 3: criticizing how federalism has gone. Other things have been quite good.

626
00:39:14,133 --> 00:39:19,973
Speaker 3: New Zealand is just you know, captured the essence of

627
00:39:20,333 --> 00:39:25,813
Speaker 3: British parliamentary sovereignty. It is unicam well, let's be honest.

628
00:39:25,853 --> 00:39:29,653
Speaker 3: Since the early nineteen hundred, its nineteen eleven anyway, Britain

629
00:39:29,653 --> 00:39:32,613
Speaker 3: has effectively been unicamera. They have an upper House, it's appointed.

630
00:39:32,653 --> 00:39:34,573
Speaker 3: They don't really do anything. They can slow laws down,

631
00:39:34,573 --> 00:39:37,893
Speaker 3: but they never they never block them really, whereas in

632
00:39:37,933 --> 00:39:40,173
Speaker 3: Australia the Upper House blocks laws all the time, and

633
00:39:40,213 --> 00:39:43,173
Speaker 3: they particularly block laws if it's passed by a right

634
00:39:43,213 --> 00:39:49,253
Speaker 3: of center conservative government. So what you see with a

635
00:39:49,333 --> 00:39:52,733
Speaker 3: setup like New Zealand's is you get swings. You get swings.

636
00:39:53,053 --> 00:39:55,453
Speaker 3: You know, when the conservatives are in they'll do stuff,

637
00:39:55,613 --> 00:39:57,813
Speaker 3: and then when the lefties get in they'll do stuff,

638
00:39:57,853 --> 00:39:59,413
Speaker 3: and the right hes do stuff in the lefties and

639
00:39:59,413 --> 00:40:02,933
Speaker 3: you get to sort of back and forth. In the US,

640
00:40:02,973 --> 00:40:05,493
Speaker 3: it's really hard to pass laws. It's hard, really even

641
00:40:05,533 --> 00:40:08,173
Speaker 3: to pass a budget, because not only do you have

642
00:40:08,573 --> 00:40:14,653
Speaker 3: an unbelievably powerful upper House that is elected not on

643
00:40:14,693 --> 00:40:18,293
Speaker 3: a sort of majoritarian basis, or at least it's a

644
00:40:18,453 --> 00:40:22,493
Speaker 3: watered down majoritarian basis that helps the little smaller states,

645
00:40:23,053 --> 00:40:25,773
Speaker 3: and the president's elected through an electoral college. Again it's

646
00:40:25,813 --> 00:40:29,733
Speaker 3: not a French you know, who got the most of

647
00:40:29,773 --> 00:40:34,213
Speaker 3: the popular vote system. So that is all designed to

648
00:40:35,733 --> 00:40:38,573
Speaker 3: make it hard to do things. That was the intent,

649
00:40:38,773 --> 00:40:42,333
Speaker 3: That was you know, James Madison's goal, and it has

650
00:40:42,333 --> 00:40:44,653
Speaker 3: stood the test of time. Now both systems sort of work.

651
00:40:45,413 --> 00:40:48,613
Speaker 3: In New Zealand Britain, you're expecting swings between the left

652
00:40:48,613 --> 00:40:50,333
Speaker 3: and the right, and the left and the right, and

653
00:40:50,453 --> 00:40:53,013
Speaker 3: the swings go around a sort of medium that runs

654
00:40:53,013 --> 00:40:57,333
Speaker 3: through the middle. And the American system just makes it

655
00:40:57,373 --> 00:41:00,013
Speaker 3: hard to do stuff period. And I should add in

656
00:41:00,013 --> 00:41:03,173
Speaker 3: the US, not only do you have incredibly difficult to

657
00:41:03,173 --> 00:41:05,253
Speaker 3: get things for the Senate, the Senate has been also

658
00:41:05,333 --> 00:41:07,973
Speaker 3: and this isn't in the constitution, but they've sort of

659
00:41:08,373 --> 00:41:12,773
Speaker 3: evolved or just made up this filibuster thing, so you know,

660
00:41:12,853 --> 00:41:14,853
Speaker 3: you have two senators from each state, but if you

661
00:41:14,893 --> 00:41:16,853
Speaker 3: get fifty one senators to vote for a bill, that's

662
00:41:16,893 --> 00:41:20,413
Speaker 3: not enough now because they run filibusters, which now require

663
00:41:20,533 --> 00:41:25,093
Speaker 3: sixty senators. So you have a incredibly high super majoritarian

664
00:41:25,253 --> 00:41:29,093
Speaker 3: bar to getting anything done now. Of course, the Republicans

665
00:41:29,133 --> 00:41:32,213
Speaker 3: tend to cave in to the Democrats and and you know,

666
00:41:32,333 --> 00:41:35,613
Speaker 3: vote for things that the other party passes, whereas you know,

667
00:41:35,653 --> 00:41:38,773
Speaker 3: the Democrats never cave into anything the Republicans are trying

668
00:41:38,773 --> 00:41:41,373
Speaker 3: to do. Right now, looking at the US, it's incredible

669
00:41:41,453 --> 00:41:45,653
Speaker 3: that the Republican Senate will not pass a law to

670
00:41:45,733 --> 00:41:50,093
Speaker 3: make you have ID to vote. It's nuts, it's nuts,

671
00:41:50,173 --> 00:41:54,173
Speaker 3: and you know this is the Republican sort of establishment.

672
00:41:54,293 --> 00:41:58,693
Speaker 3: Senators won't do it, and it's incredible if it were

673
00:41:58,693 --> 00:42:01,413
Speaker 3: the Democrats. They do without even blinking it on. And

674
00:42:01,453 --> 00:42:03,933
Speaker 3: they're not even asking them to remove the filibuster. They're

675
00:42:03,973 --> 00:42:07,013
Speaker 3: just asking them to make You know, the old evolved

676
00:42:07,213 --> 00:42:09,693
Speaker 3: basis of a philibuster, you had to stand up and speak,

677
00:42:10,053 --> 00:42:11,573
Speaker 3: and you had to keep speaking, and the minute you

678
00:42:11,573 --> 00:42:14,693
Speaker 3: stop speaking, the bill would pass. And they've turned that

679
00:42:14,813 --> 00:42:17,213
Speaker 3: into a pro forma thing where you just say this

680
00:42:17,333 --> 00:42:19,733
Speaker 3: is a filibuster, and then you can't you can't pass

681
00:42:19,813 --> 00:42:22,493
Speaker 3: the law. So all people are asking is that you

682
00:42:22,533 --> 00:42:24,453
Speaker 3: go back to the practice they had back in the

683
00:42:24,573 --> 00:42:26,573
Speaker 3: nineteen you know, I think it was as recently as

684
00:42:26,653 --> 00:42:29,693
Speaker 3: nineteen sixties or seventies where you actually have to speak

685
00:42:30,253 --> 00:42:32,933
Speaker 3: because at some point the philibuster collapses. They just can't

686
00:42:33,013 --> 00:42:37,573
Speaker 3: keep talking long enough. So, you know. But my overall

687
00:42:37,613 --> 00:42:40,613
Speaker 3: point is the American system is one where you just

688
00:42:40,653 --> 00:42:44,933
Speaker 3: don't expect anything to get done, including passing budgets, whereas

689
00:42:44,973 --> 00:42:47,573
Speaker 3: New Zealand things get done and then the new you

690
00:42:47,573 --> 00:42:49,813
Speaker 3: have an election and you get a massive swing the

691
00:42:49,853 --> 00:42:54,813
Speaker 3: other way. And this was more true before the nineteen

692
00:42:54,893 --> 00:42:57,893
Speaker 3: ninety six election that brought an MMP. I've never liked MMP.

693
00:42:59,213 --> 00:43:03,413
Speaker 3: I still don't like MMP, but you have to admit

694
00:43:03,453 --> 00:43:05,533
Speaker 3: that under first pass the post you got even wilder

695
00:43:05,573 --> 00:43:08,973
Speaker 3: swings because now you get a little dipstick, little parties

696
00:43:09,013 --> 00:43:13,973
Speaker 3: that can block things that the majority party of the

697
00:43:13,973 --> 00:43:16,733
Speaker 3: coalition wants to do. That may that may well have

698
00:43:16,773 --> 00:43:18,773
Speaker 3: been one of the reasons some people voted for m MP.

699
00:43:18,893 --> 00:43:21,613
Speaker 2: I don't know this not about it for m MP

700
00:43:21,853 --> 00:43:25,693
Speaker 2: because they am sorry. They wanted to bring politicians to heal.

701
00:43:26,013 --> 00:43:27,413
Speaker 2: That's really really what it was.

702
00:43:28,253 --> 00:43:30,653
Speaker 3: They just that's because they didn't understand that with m MP.

703
00:43:30,733 --> 00:43:32,333
Speaker 2: They didn't have a clue.

704
00:43:32,813 --> 00:43:35,293
Speaker 3: Power they have more, but they make the lists. Half

705
00:43:35,333 --> 00:43:37,853
Speaker 3: the people get into almost half the people get into parliament.

706
00:43:37,853 --> 00:43:40,093
Speaker 3: You've never voted for them, it's just the party leader

707
00:43:40,213 --> 00:43:43,413
Speaker 3: likes them. And you know, if anything, MMP has made

708
00:43:43,893 --> 00:43:48,093
Speaker 3: the lives of politicians easier and given them more power.

709
00:43:48,813 --> 00:43:51,373
Speaker 3: So you know, the thing I liked about first past

710
00:43:51,373 --> 00:43:55,693
Speaker 3: the post is and this was the philosopher of science,

711
00:43:55,813 --> 00:43:59,293
Speaker 3: Carl Popper, who always said, the thing about first past

712
00:43:59,333 --> 00:44:01,773
Speaker 3: the post is that it allows you to throw the

713
00:44:01,813 --> 00:44:07,693
Speaker 3: bums out. Whereas proportional voting systems A they don't make

714
00:44:07,733 --> 00:44:09,853
Speaker 3: it easy to The party leaders never lose because they

715
00:44:09,893 --> 00:44:11,933
Speaker 3: put themselves at the top of the party lists, so

716
00:44:11,973 --> 00:44:15,213
Speaker 3: they never lose. And all of the bargaining happens after

717
00:44:15,253 --> 00:44:19,613
Speaker 3: the election. You know, it doesn't matter what manifesto or

718
00:44:19,653 --> 00:44:22,173
Speaker 3: what set of promises that political parties go to the

719
00:44:22,253 --> 00:44:25,333
Speaker 3: voters with, because nobody will win the majority and everyone

720
00:44:25,413 --> 00:44:28,773
Speaker 3: knows that, and then they have their all their negotiating

721
00:44:28,853 --> 00:44:32,253
Speaker 3: happens away from the voters. After the election and it's

722
00:44:32,333 --> 00:44:35,613
Speaker 3: just a stitch up by the politicians. So again, you know,

723
00:44:35,933 --> 00:44:40,453
Speaker 3: every in life, we are all choosing the least bad option,

724
00:44:41,093 --> 00:44:43,373
Speaker 3: from your partner, to your job, to the kind of

725
00:44:43,453 --> 00:44:46,213
Speaker 3: voting system you like. So of course there are problems

726
00:44:46,253 --> 00:44:49,293
Speaker 3: will first past the post. There are problems with Australia's

727
00:44:49,333 --> 00:44:53,453
Speaker 3: preferential voting, but there are more problems with I think

728
00:44:53,493 --> 00:44:58,413
Speaker 3: proportional systems. They favor an inside or elitist cast, and

729
00:44:58,533 --> 00:45:02,493
Speaker 3: they come up with answers after the voters have spoken,

730
00:45:02,493 --> 00:45:04,413
Speaker 3: and there's really nothing the voters can do about it

731
00:45:04,453 --> 00:45:07,933
Speaker 3: because the politicians just say, well, you know, to get

732
00:45:07,973 --> 00:45:12,093
Speaker 3: this co together, I had to sacrifice the first four promises.

733
00:45:12,093 --> 00:45:15,213
Speaker 3: I made all of your story guys, and you know

734
00:45:15,253 --> 00:45:18,853
Speaker 3: you know that's going to happen going in. I would

735
00:45:18,893 --> 00:45:21,013
Speaker 3: like to see the little parties in Australia hold the

736
00:45:21,093 --> 00:45:23,973
Speaker 3: National Party a bit more, hold their feet to the fire,

737
00:45:23,813 --> 00:45:26,293
Speaker 3: are a bit more on all the.

738
00:45:26,413 --> 00:45:29,533
Speaker 2: All right, well we're going to come to that the

739
00:45:29,573 --> 00:45:32,613
Speaker 2: Liberal Party in a minute. But we've got this far.

740
00:45:32,973 --> 00:45:37,453
Speaker 2: But I don't believe we've mentioned reasonable law.

741
00:45:38,293 --> 00:45:42,813
Speaker 3: Well again, that's one of the many tools you're referring to.

742
00:45:42,853 --> 00:45:47,333
Speaker 3: One of the ways in which the Israeli Top Court

743
00:45:47,893 --> 00:45:53,333
Speaker 3: has decided that they will rewrite legislation or invalidate. They

744
00:45:53,373 --> 00:45:58,813
Speaker 3: bring this this sort of administrative law type standard to

745
00:45:58,853 --> 00:46:03,213
Speaker 3: the table and ask themselves if some statutory provision is

746
00:46:03,373 --> 00:46:07,693
Speaker 3: you know, extremely unreasonable or is it reasonable enough? And

747
00:46:07,733 --> 00:46:10,893
Speaker 3: you ask, you know, reasonable according to what?

748
00:46:11,973 --> 00:46:15,533
Speaker 2: And well, according to the judges, well, of.

749
00:46:15,493 --> 00:46:18,693
Speaker 3: Course, I mean, it's like the test in torte law.

750
00:46:18,733 --> 00:46:20,653
Speaker 3: They always when you hear a loss, if any of

751
00:46:20,773 --> 00:46:23,933
Speaker 3: people listening are lawyers or law students, when you when

752
00:46:23,973 --> 00:46:26,333
Speaker 3: you first start law school and you take tort law

753
00:46:26,373 --> 00:46:28,253
Speaker 3: and now it's different in New Zealand these days because

754
00:46:28,253 --> 00:46:32,293
Speaker 3: you got rid of negligence. But the normal test in

755
00:46:32,373 --> 00:46:34,773
Speaker 3: tort law is you ask what the reasonable person on

756
00:46:34,813 --> 00:46:38,653
Speaker 3: the it's the suburban lendon i sad knee something on

757
00:46:38,893 --> 00:46:41,173
Speaker 3: the bus. What would the average person on the bus think?

758
00:46:41,213 --> 00:46:44,733
Speaker 3: What's reasonable? And the problem with anybody who points to

759
00:46:44,773 --> 00:46:48,013
Speaker 3: a test of reasonableness is there is a spectrum of

760
00:46:48,093 --> 00:46:51,013
Speaker 3: reasonable outcomes. You know, if you think of all of

761
00:46:51,013 --> 00:46:53,693
Speaker 3: the possible answers on a spectrum, there's going to be

762
00:46:53,693 --> 00:46:56,973
Speaker 3: a huge number of them towards that are that we

763
00:46:57,013 --> 00:46:58,933
Speaker 3: would say well, that's a reasonable one. I don't agree

764
00:46:58,973 --> 00:47:02,253
Speaker 3: with it, but it's reasonable. And so the test for

765
00:47:02,413 --> 00:47:08,213
Speaker 3: reasonableness always collapses into the test for you know, the

766
00:47:08,453 --> 00:47:12,173
Speaker 3: answer that the person who's deciding the case would go with,

767
00:47:12,293 --> 00:47:15,373
Speaker 3: because we all, all of us think that our own

768
00:47:15,413 --> 00:47:18,373
Speaker 3: answers are the most reasonable answers. It's it's by definition.

769
00:47:18,893 --> 00:47:23,053
Speaker 3: And so the problem with the judges bringing a test

770
00:47:23,093 --> 00:47:27,013
Speaker 3: to bearer that's not linked to any law or any

771
00:47:27,053 --> 00:47:30,813
Speaker 3: statutory text or any legal text at all. It's just

772
00:47:30,813 --> 00:47:33,693
Speaker 3: a sort of free floating what do I think is reasonable?

773
00:47:33,693 --> 00:47:36,213
Speaker 3: You know, I've sort of licked my finger and stuck

774
00:47:36,213 --> 00:47:37,813
Speaker 3: it up in the air to see which way I

775
00:47:37,853 --> 00:47:41,053
Speaker 3: think that. You know, the wind's blowing. Well aa, judges

776
00:47:41,053 --> 00:47:43,653
Speaker 3: aren't very good at that. B They always think their

777
00:47:43,693 --> 00:47:46,253
Speaker 3: own views are the most reasonable. See, they don't have

778
00:47:46,333 --> 00:47:50,413
Speaker 3: access to information. I mean, there are institutional problems. Judges

779
00:47:50,453 --> 00:47:53,733
Speaker 3: decide cases based on the two parties in front of them.

780
00:47:54,253 --> 00:47:58,253
Speaker 3: Legislatures have massive resources. They you know, they do green papers,

781
00:47:58,253 --> 00:48:00,893
Speaker 3: white papers, people come in and testify. They have access

782
00:48:00,933 --> 00:48:03,973
Speaker 3: to information, they know. You know, the problem with running

783
00:48:04,973 --> 00:48:08,293
Speaker 3: social policy making through the courts, especially on big ticket

784
00:48:08,493 --> 00:48:12,173
Speaker 3: public or constitutional cases, is that there's lots of points

785
00:48:12,173 --> 00:48:14,373
Speaker 3: of view that aren't in front of the court. If

786
00:48:14,373 --> 00:48:16,973
Speaker 3: you want to think of it in a non constitutional context,

787
00:48:17,133 --> 00:48:21,493
Speaker 3: imagine someone who's a quadriplegic who fell off a school

788
00:48:21,573 --> 00:48:26,413
Speaker 3: playground and you know, and the school did everything they properly,

789
00:48:26,453 --> 00:48:29,053
Speaker 3: the kids snuck in after school and fell and so

790
00:48:29,133 --> 00:48:34,333
Speaker 3: you're suing some multinational insurance company. And the only way

791
00:48:34,493 --> 00:48:36,933
Speaker 3: that this kid can win is that you have to

792
00:48:36,933 --> 00:48:40,613
Speaker 3: say the school, you know, was negligent, they weren't reasonable,

793
00:48:40,653 --> 00:48:42,733
Speaker 3: and the steps they took to look after the playground

794
00:48:42,773 --> 00:48:46,693
Speaker 3: something like that. Well, everyone knows the school was reasonable.

795
00:48:46,773 --> 00:48:48,973
Speaker 3: But on the same at the same time, you've only

796
00:48:49,013 --> 00:48:50,693
Speaker 3: got two parties in front of you. What kind of

797
00:48:50,733 --> 00:48:54,453
Speaker 3: a heartless have to be not to want this poor,

798
00:48:54,493 --> 00:48:56,293
Speaker 3: you know, twelve year old kid to get lots of

799
00:48:56,293 --> 00:49:00,293
Speaker 3: money because he's quadriplegic. And is a bad way to

800
00:49:00,373 --> 00:49:04,613
Speaker 3: make social policy decisions, because all of the kids who

801
00:49:04,653 --> 00:49:06,693
Speaker 3: won't be able to play on school playgrounds because you're

802
00:49:06,693 --> 00:49:08,813
Speaker 3: going to have to close them down because you can't

803
00:49:08,853 --> 00:49:11,173
Speaker 3: allow schools have to pay so much money, they can't

804
00:49:11,173 --> 00:49:14,013
Speaker 3: allow any risk taking. In the end, we're all worse off.

805
00:49:14,613 --> 00:49:17,093
Speaker 3: But if all you have, are the two parties in

806
00:49:17,093 --> 00:49:20,253
Speaker 3: front of you, Well, you can totally understand why judges

807
00:49:20,333 --> 00:49:24,413
Speaker 3: make bad decisions. So there's not only are there democratic

808
00:49:24,453 --> 00:49:27,333
Speaker 3: problems with what they're doing, and not only are there

809
00:49:27,373 --> 00:49:30,213
Speaker 3: problems with they don't have a clue what the average

810
00:49:30,253 --> 00:49:33,373
Speaker 3: person thinks about anything, because they're a cocooned bunch of

811
00:49:33,413 --> 00:49:37,813
Speaker 3: elitists surrounded by bootlicking your eye heat types. And I'm

812
00:49:37,813 --> 00:49:41,333
Speaker 3: putting that strongly gist of it. There's also an institutional

813
00:49:41,373 --> 00:49:44,693
Speaker 3: competence problem, which is that they don't get access to

814
00:49:44,773 --> 00:49:48,533
Speaker 3: very much information. Now sure they allow third parties to

815
00:49:48,933 --> 00:49:51,773
Speaker 3: sort of send in briefs, but nobody's cross examining them

816
00:49:51,853 --> 00:49:54,533
Speaker 3: on that. And if you go back in the US,

817
00:49:54,573 --> 00:49:56,533
Speaker 3: they call them brandeis brief. If you go back and

818
00:49:56,533 --> 00:50:00,853
Speaker 3: look at the sort of sociological evidence that they used

819
00:50:00,853 --> 00:50:03,573
Speaker 3: to put into court in the US in the nineteen fifties,

820
00:50:03,573 --> 00:50:06,973
Speaker 3: it's laughable. It is laughable. The last thing we want

821
00:50:07,053 --> 00:50:11,613
Speaker 3: is some NGO or doing activist group putting in evidence

822
00:50:11,613 --> 00:50:15,333
Speaker 3: which the judges treat as true. It's almost always not true.

823
00:50:16,333 --> 00:50:19,053
Speaker 3: So there's all sorts of problems and the Israeli judges

824
00:50:19,093 --> 00:50:21,933
Speaker 3: what they have done is they've just invented this. We

825
00:50:21,973 --> 00:50:25,213
Speaker 3: will ask ourselves what we think is reasonable, and we'll

826
00:50:25,293 --> 00:50:29,093
Speaker 3: use that to invalidate laws. I mean, if you made

827
00:50:29,093 --> 00:50:31,613
Speaker 3: it up, no one would believe it. So in a

828
00:50:31,653 --> 00:50:34,933
Speaker 3: way you have to warren reader or listeners that this

829
00:50:35,493 --> 00:50:39,813
Speaker 3: Jonitan Green book is not a work affection. It's hard

830
00:50:39,853 --> 00:50:40,933
Speaker 3: to is it is?

831
00:50:41,573 --> 00:50:44,413
Speaker 2: It really is? It really is difficult to believe it.

832
00:50:44,413 --> 00:50:45,453
Speaker 3: It is hard to believe.

833
00:50:45,613 --> 00:50:49,613
Speaker 2: Now there's some there's a similarity between the system in

834
00:50:49,693 --> 00:50:53,013
Speaker 2: Iran and the system in Israel. Similarity.

835
00:50:54,853 --> 00:50:57,933
Speaker 3: Well, well, he starts one of the chapters Joniton Green

836
00:50:58,013 --> 00:50:59,973
Speaker 3: by citing I can't remember, I haven't got the book

837
00:50:59,973 --> 00:51:03,853
Speaker 3: in front of body, but he cites either a retired

838
00:51:03,973 --> 00:51:08,213
Speaker 3: judge or retired law professor who says, what the Israeli

839
00:51:08,373 --> 00:51:11,333
Speaker 3: judges have done is create a system that doesn't look

840
00:51:11,373 --> 00:51:14,533
Speaker 3: a million miles different to what you see in Iran.

841
00:51:14,573 --> 00:51:16,493
Speaker 3: And he means that as a biting criticism. But you

842
00:51:16,533 --> 00:51:20,813
Speaker 3: have a group of unaccountable people who purport to have

843
00:51:20,893 --> 00:51:25,813
Speaker 3: their you know, a direct pipeline to God on moral issues.

844
00:51:25,893 --> 00:51:30,093
Speaker 3: You know, have to have moral antennae that vibrate at

845
00:51:30,133 --> 00:51:34,933
Speaker 3: some godly frequency, and they will override every other institution

846
00:51:35,373 --> 00:51:39,173
Speaker 3: in the country. And you know, it's a biting criticism,

847
00:51:39,453 --> 00:51:42,293
Speaker 3: and he means it to be biting. And of course

848
00:51:42,333 --> 00:51:46,253
Speaker 3: there are differences between Iran and Israel, obviously, but in

849
00:51:46,373 --> 00:51:51,333
Speaker 3: terms of the way these Israeli judges have positioned themselves,

850
00:51:53,213 --> 00:51:55,413
Speaker 3: there is an analogy to what you what, I can't

851
00:51:55,413 --> 00:51:58,893
Speaker 3: even remember. They call them in Iran the Guardian, the

852
00:51:58,933 --> 00:52:04,453
Speaker 3: Guardian Council. That's right, and so it's not Jonitton greens claim.

853
00:52:04,533 --> 00:52:08,053
Speaker 3: He just cites a one of the skeptics. I think

854
00:52:08,093 --> 00:52:11,493
Speaker 3: it was a retired top charge, but it might have

855
00:52:11,533 --> 00:52:15,173
Speaker 3: been a professor law professor and you know that if

856
00:52:15,213 --> 00:52:20,293
Speaker 3: you read that, you surely think out out. But yeah, no,

857
00:52:20,413 --> 00:52:22,933
Speaker 3: that was that was quite a that starts one of

858
00:52:22,973 --> 00:52:24,333
Speaker 3: the chapters, and it's very biting.

859
00:52:24,893 --> 00:52:28,253
Speaker 2: Well, you've used quite a bit of colorful language describing

860
00:52:28,253 --> 00:52:32,453
Speaker 2: what's going on in in Israel, well with the with

861
00:52:32,533 --> 00:52:37,373
Speaker 2: the Supreme Court, I mean colorful. But there's one there's

862
00:52:37,373 --> 00:52:40,133
Speaker 2: one word that that you didn't use, and I'm going

863
00:52:40,133 --> 00:52:43,093
Speaker 2: to inject it, and that is, how do you describe

864
00:52:43,093 --> 00:52:50,493
Speaker 2: the the judicial supremacy of the Israeli Supreme Court? Incestuous?

865
00:52:50,573 --> 00:52:51,173
Speaker 2: Is the answer?

866
00:52:52,413 --> 00:52:55,333
Speaker 3: Yeah? Yeah, So you know, if you're not an Arkansas,

867
00:52:55,373 --> 00:53:00,573
Speaker 3: that's not a good thing. Being facetious. Yeah, so it

868
00:53:00,613 --> 00:53:04,613
Speaker 3: is because they're picking their own successors. They've given immense power.

869
00:53:05,333 --> 00:53:11,013
Speaker 3: And you know, the US has more experienced with very

870
00:53:11,053 --> 00:53:15,853
Speaker 3: powerful judges and any democratic country on earth until you know,

871
00:53:15,893 --> 00:53:18,453
Speaker 3: the nineteen fifties sixties, there are only two countries in

872
00:53:18,493 --> 00:53:20,973
Speaker 3: the democratic rule that had a bill of rights France

873
00:53:21,013 --> 00:53:23,733
Speaker 3: and the US, and the French one you couldn't strike

874
00:53:23,773 --> 00:53:26,413
Speaker 3: down laws. So we you know, for most of democratic

875
00:53:26,493 --> 00:53:32,253
Speaker 3: history it's only been the Americans, and so the American

876
00:53:32,333 --> 00:53:37,173
Speaker 3: judge have always been seen as political actors. Nobody thinks

877
00:53:37,213 --> 00:53:43,413
Speaker 3: that they are articulating uncontestable moral truth. And they are

878
00:53:43,453 --> 00:53:47,293
Speaker 3: appointed in an openly political way. The winning president picks

879
00:53:47,333 --> 00:53:53,373
Speaker 3: the top judges with the caveat that his The president's

880
00:53:53,933 --> 00:53:57,333
Speaker 3: nominee has to get voted up or down by the

881
00:53:57,413 --> 00:54:00,213
Speaker 3: US Senate, and sometimes the Senate is controlled by a

882
00:54:00,253 --> 00:54:03,213
Speaker 3: party that's different to the president, and the Senate will

883
00:54:03,253 --> 00:54:06,013
Speaker 3: just say no, and that has happened many times. And

884
00:54:06,053 --> 00:54:09,573
Speaker 3: so but it's an openly political you know, the president

885
00:54:09,653 --> 00:54:12,173
Speaker 3: is trying to pick people who are good lawyers. They

886
00:54:12,213 --> 00:54:15,413
Speaker 3: always want people are good lawyers, but he also wants

887
00:54:15,413 --> 00:54:18,253
Speaker 3: to pick someone who brings to the table since they

888
00:54:18,253 --> 00:54:21,973
Speaker 3: are basically deciding political and moral issues. I mean, those

889
00:54:22,013 --> 00:54:25,293
Speaker 3: of rights are not legal documents, really, they're moral documents,

890
00:54:25,733 --> 00:54:27,893
Speaker 3: and you want to pick someone who more or less

891
00:54:27,933 --> 00:54:31,773
Speaker 3: shares your worldview. And you know that is also true

892
00:54:31,773 --> 00:54:35,853
Speaker 3: in Britain and New Zealand. It's just that they are

893
00:54:35,893 --> 00:54:40,053
Speaker 3: relying on all of all of the pre Bill of

894
00:54:40,173 --> 00:54:44,133
Speaker 3: Rights world when the judges weren't making big ticket political decisions,

895
00:54:44,573 --> 00:54:47,733
Speaker 3: that was what the legislator we saw them as highly independent.

896
00:54:48,173 --> 00:54:50,253
Speaker 3: Well they're trading off that, and they did that in

897
00:54:50,293 --> 00:54:53,293
Speaker 3: Canada for you know, the first thirty years of the

898
00:54:53,373 --> 00:54:55,693
Speaker 3: Charter of Rights. But no one in Canada now thinks

899
00:54:55,693 --> 00:55:01,413
Speaker 3: of the judges as sort of impartial a political actors,

900
00:55:01,493 --> 00:55:04,173
Speaker 3: because when they start deciding who can get married, and

901
00:55:04,173 --> 00:55:06,973
Speaker 3: who can have abortions, and whether you're going to have

902
00:55:07,173 --> 00:55:09,973
Speaker 3: an asia and you know what kind of speech is allowable,

903
00:55:10,053 --> 00:55:13,653
Speaker 3: everyone sees these aren't really legal questions. And when on

904
00:55:13,733 --> 00:55:18,453
Speaker 3: court starts going off on some ridiculous tangent about how

905
00:55:18,773 --> 00:55:20,933
Speaker 3: if you don't let sixteen year olds vote, you're not

906
00:55:21,013 --> 00:55:25,293
Speaker 3: rights respect based on another statute even more laughably. Well,

907
00:55:25,413 --> 00:55:28,373
Speaker 3: you know, this is not a legal argument that they're making.

908
00:55:28,453 --> 00:55:30,853
Speaker 3: It's just here's our view of the world. We would

909
00:55:30,893 --> 00:55:33,213
Speaker 3: prefer to let sixteen year old vote, to which the

910
00:55:33,253 --> 00:55:37,733
Speaker 3: answer is, who gives a darn? I could be more colorful,

911
00:55:37,773 --> 00:55:41,933
Speaker 3: but I won't be who gives a darn? What judges

912
00:55:41,973 --> 00:55:45,053
Speaker 3: think is the best age to let people vote? Nobody cares.

913
00:55:45,773 --> 00:55:49,093
Speaker 3: That's not a legal question. You have no extra expertise

914
00:55:49,133 --> 00:55:51,933
Speaker 3: on those issues, and so you should really shut up.

915
00:55:52,453 --> 00:55:55,573
Speaker 3: And so that's the sort of world we live in now.

916
00:55:55,773 --> 00:55:59,053
Speaker 3: I mean, I'm hoping that we're going to soon hit

917
00:55:59,053 --> 00:56:02,893
Speaker 3: the point where the political class starts pushing back against

918
00:56:02,893 --> 00:56:06,413
Speaker 3: the sort of incredible rise in judicial power over the

919
00:56:06,453 --> 00:56:07,733
Speaker 3: last thirty or forty years.

920
00:56:08,733 --> 00:56:13,053
Speaker 2: Let me ask you a couple of quick questions before

921
00:56:13,053 --> 00:56:14,733
Speaker 2: we run out of There's not such a thing as

922
00:56:14,813 --> 00:56:17,573
Speaker 2: running out of time, but there's a there is a limit.

923
00:56:18,253 --> 00:56:19,813
Speaker 3: Well, there is in my kitchen.

924
00:56:19,893 --> 00:56:20,053
Speaker 4: Late.

925
00:56:20,653 --> 00:56:23,933
Speaker 3: I'm sorry, you can run out of time in my kitchen.

926
00:56:23,973 --> 00:56:25,653
Speaker 3: But it's a different spelling.

927
00:56:27,933 --> 00:56:34,813
Speaker 2: Out of all the Anglo countries at Britain, America, Canada, Australia,

928
00:56:34,973 --> 00:56:38,973
Speaker 2: New Zealand, maybe one country that is doing really really.

929
00:56:38,973 --> 00:56:45,213
Speaker 3: Well, well, it depends are we talking economically socially judges

930
00:56:45,253 --> 00:56:48,253
Speaker 3: who are still a bit deferential to the legislature. In

931
00:56:48,333 --> 00:56:52,893
Speaker 3: terms of judges who still are a little bit deferential

932
00:56:52,933 --> 00:56:55,493
Speaker 3: to the politicians, well, that would be the Australian High Court.

933
00:56:55,573 --> 00:56:58,373
Speaker 3: I mean, they have made a mess of federalism, but

934
00:56:58,493 --> 00:57:03,173
Speaker 3: at least with federalism you're deciding between two elected legislatures.

935
00:57:03,173 --> 00:57:06,373
Speaker 3: So you know, the judges when they're deciding federalists cases

936
00:57:06,413 --> 00:57:10,453
Speaker 3: aren't imposing their own views, or at least not directly.

937
00:57:10,493 --> 00:57:13,373
Speaker 3: They might. They're just picking between two legislatures, the central

938
00:57:13,413 --> 00:57:17,933
Speaker 3: one or the state one. And on the rates related stuff, well,

939
00:57:18,133 --> 00:57:20,893
Speaker 3: sure in Australia they have made up and implied freedom,

940
00:57:20,893 --> 00:57:23,053
Speaker 3: but they've only ever struck down laws I think about

941
00:57:23,133 --> 00:57:23,893
Speaker 3: nine times.

942
00:57:24,853 --> 00:57:30,733
Speaker 2: That's not great, But extend extend it to everything, the

943
00:57:30,773 --> 00:57:32,933
Speaker 2: state of the country, the state of the people, et cetera.

944
00:57:35,573 --> 00:57:37,333
Speaker 2: Or I'll pose you the question if you like, and

945
00:57:37,373 --> 00:57:41,493
Speaker 2: that is basically, why are all of those countries, with

946
00:57:41,573 --> 00:57:45,453
Speaker 2: the possible exception of America for the moment, why are

947
00:57:45,453 --> 00:57:48,413
Speaker 2: all those countries really in trouble?

948
00:57:49,413 --> 00:57:51,373
Speaker 3: Yeah, well they're in trouble, and it's obvious that if

949
00:57:51,373 --> 00:57:53,893
Speaker 3: you want any optimism as a sort of right of

950
00:57:54,013 --> 00:57:57,013
Speaker 3: center person, then that optimism is coming to you from

951
00:57:57,053 --> 00:58:00,733
Speaker 3: the US. No, there are many people in New Zealand,

952
00:58:00,733 --> 00:58:04,053
Speaker 3: Austraia who are completely deranged about Trump. But you know,

953
00:58:04,093 --> 00:58:08,893
Speaker 3: he finished his first year in office with what four growth,

954
00:58:08,933 --> 00:58:11,733
Speaker 3: inflation down to two point four believe it or not.

955
00:58:11,813 --> 00:58:15,093
Speaker 3: The murder rate is now the lowest about nineteen hundreds,

956
00:58:15,133 --> 00:58:17,013
Speaker 3: so one hundred and twenty five years ago, and that's

957
00:58:17,013 --> 00:58:21,773
Speaker 3: because about three million illegals have been pushed out of

958
00:58:21,773 --> 00:58:24,733
Speaker 3: the country, either they've voluntarily left or they've been deported,

959
00:58:25,253 --> 00:58:29,693
Speaker 3: and he sent the National Guard into these crazily dangerous

960
00:58:29,693 --> 00:58:34,653
Speaker 3: Democrat run cities like Memphis, like Washington, DC, all time

961
00:58:34,733 --> 00:58:38,533
Speaker 3: high stock market, the most secure of the US border

962
00:58:38,533 --> 00:58:41,533
Speaker 3: has ever been. But what I really like is in

963
00:58:41,613 --> 00:58:44,973
Speaker 3: the latest jobs reports. I don't know how many, like

964
00:58:45,093 --> 00:58:47,573
Speaker 3: tens of thousands of government jobs have been lost in

965
00:58:47,573 --> 00:58:51,773
Speaker 3: the eighty thousand, but private sector jobs have gone way up.

966
00:58:51,813 --> 00:58:53,533
Speaker 3: I don't know a couple hundred thousand. This is off

967
00:58:53,613 --> 00:58:55,573
Speaker 3: top of my head, I can't really remember. And so

968
00:58:55,733 --> 00:58:58,173
Speaker 3: you have in the US you have a private sector

969
00:58:58,293 --> 00:59:02,933
Speaker 3: led recovery, and of course the Kings and economists, which

970
00:59:03,133 --> 00:59:07,333
Speaker 3: I think Kings has made many mistakes. One of them

971
00:59:07,373 --> 00:59:09,453
Speaker 3: is that you see the world in terms of gross

972
00:59:09,453 --> 00:59:13,613
Speaker 3: domestic product, which is one of the factors that goes

973
00:59:13,653 --> 00:59:16,533
Speaker 3: into that is how much government spending there is. And

974
00:59:16,973 --> 00:59:19,253
Speaker 3: the more people you import into your country, the more

975
00:59:19,293 --> 00:59:22,893
Speaker 3: GDP goes up. Australia has had what seven of the

976
00:59:22,973 --> 00:59:26,133
Speaker 3: last nine quarters or nine of the last twelve, I forget,

977
00:59:26,413 --> 00:59:30,493
Speaker 3: have shown GDP per person decline. We're all getting we're

978
00:59:30,533 --> 00:59:34,693
Speaker 3: all getting poorer at the individual level, but the economy,

979
00:59:34,733 --> 00:59:38,333
Speaker 3: this fictional thing they call the economy, has gotten bigger,

980
00:59:38,453 --> 00:59:43,413
Speaker 3: well sure gotten bigger because we've imported a record number

981
00:59:43,413 --> 00:59:47,213
Speaker 3: of people who are you know, the transportation system can't

982
00:59:47,213 --> 00:59:50,813
Speaker 3: handle them, the housing can't handle them, and and you know,

983
00:59:50,973 --> 00:59:54,253
Speaker 3: so GDP is a terrible measure. And the idea that

984
00:59:55,813 --> 00:59:58,533
Speaker 3: government spending in and of itself is a good thing

985
00:59:58,613 --> 01:00:03,373
Speaker 3: it completely bonkers. So the Americans have GDP per person

986
01:00:03,533 --> 01:00:06,453
Speaker 3: going up at the same time as they have net

987
01:00:06,533 --> 01:00:11,373
Speaker 3: negative migration. I think if you're an American as in

988
01:00:11,413 --> 01:00:13,333
Speaker 3: you know, let's say you were born in America or

989
01:00:13,373 --> 01:00:15,533
Speaker 3: you've been there for a while and becoming you are

990
01:00:15,573 --> 01:00:19,933
Speaker 3: getting much wealthier. The average American has seen their paypacket

991
01:00:19,933 --> 01:00:22,773
Speaker 3: go up two percent, and under Biden it went down

992
01:00:22,813 --> 01:00:24,613
Speaker 3: for it. And Trump has done that in the face

993
01:00:24,773 --> 01:00:28,533
Speaker 3: of the most costle legacy media that anyone has seen

994
01:00:28,613 --> 01:00:33,533
Speaker 3: since maybe the closing years of Richard Nixon. Maybe, I mean,

995
01:00:33,613 --> 01:00:37,373
Speaker 3: so you struggle to find I mean that the legacy

996
01:00:37,413 --> 01:00:41,013
Speaker 3: media hates the man. They've done studies at a Yale

997
01:00:41,053 --> 01:00:43,893
Speaker 3: showing that he gets ninety five ninety six percent negative

998
01:00:43,893 --> 01:00:48,853
Speaker 3: coverage on the legacy outside of Fox. I mean literally,

999
01:00:49,333 --> 01:00:53,173
Speaker 3: Kim Jung whatever the current Kim Jung is, Kim Jong un,

1000
01:00:53,253 --> 01:00:56,173
Speaker 3: kenjun el I forget in North Korea, he gets better coverage,

1001
01:00:56,893 --> 01:01:00,973
Speaker 3: and that has actually hurt them because now at least

1002
01:01:00,973 --> 01:01:03,893
Speaker 3: half of Americans just paying no attention to the legacy media.

1003
01:01:04,013 --> 01:01:07,973
Speaker 3: CNN has lost what two thirds of its audience just

1004
01:01:08,053 --> 01:01:10,413
Speaker 3: because Trump, because you know, why would you watch CNN?

1005
01:01:10,493 --> 01:01:12,453
Speaker 3: They never wrote a good story about him, no matter what,

1006
01:01:12,693 --> 01:01:16,813
Speaker 3: nobody remotely thinks they're balanced. Even rents have gone down

1007
01:01:16,853 --> 01:01:19,573
Speaker 3: in the US, so every so, if you're just an

1008
01:01:19,613 --> 01:01:23,333
Speaker 3: average working class person, you know, call it the working

1009
01:01:23,333 --> 01:01:25,413
Speaker 3: class if you want. Trump has done more for them

1010
01:01:25,453 --> 01:01:28,333
Speaker 3: than any left wing politician and the rest of the anglosphere.

1011
01:01:28,813 --> 01:01:31,853
Speaker 3: And the answer is just, well, he's uncouth, he's boris,

1012
01:01:31,853 --> 01:01:37,613
Speaker 3: he's got an insane sort of sense of massive ego.

1013
01:01:37,853 --> 01:01:42,373
Speaker 3: Who cares. I'm a results guy. I've got lots of

1014
01:01:42,373 --> 01:01:45,213
Speaker 3: friends who are sort of you know, right wing, but

1015
01:01:45,293 --> 01:01:48,493
Speaker 3: I think they're deranged about Trump and they all like

1016
01:01:48,613 --> 01:01:50,733
Speaker 3: the outcomes. But they go yeah, but you know, I

1017
01:01:50,733 --> 01:01:54,973
Speaker 3: can't stand the man. Something wrong.

1018
01:01:55,613 --> 01:02:01,573
Speaker 2: Yes, there is Angus Taylor. Just quickly, can Angus Tyler

1019
01:02:01,653 --> 01:02:05,653
Speaker 2: free Australia of the green energy nightmare? It's it's amazing

1020
01:02:05,653 --> 01:02:08,253
Speaker 2: at the moment to see the headlines and the stories

1021
01:02:08,373 --> 01:02:12,093
Speaker 2: from all over the Western world about the collapse of

1022
01:02:12,453 --> 01:02:15,773
Speaker 2: the attitude toward green energy.

1023
01:02:16,493 --> 01:02:20,173
Speaker 3: Well, let's put it this way. For New Zealand listeners,

1024
01:02:20,933 --> 01:02:25,173
Speaker 3: they just got rid of the incredibly left wing, woke

1025
01:02:26,373 --> 01:02:28,653
Speaker 3: Susan Lee who had been leading what was supposed to

1026
01:02:28,733 --> 01:02:32,533
Speaker 3: be a right of center Liberal Party in coalition with

1027
01:02:32,573 --> 01:02:37,493
Speaker 3: the National Party. And the real problems in Australia probably

1028
01:02:37,493 --> 01:02:41,373
Speaker 3: go back to twenty fifteen when the Liberal Party room

1029
01:02:41,413 --> 01:02:44,973
Speaker 3: the caucus and in Australia they still have the power

1030
01:02:45,013 --> 01:02:48,053
Speaker 3: to pick the leader. They ditched Tony Abbott for Malcolm Turnbull.

1031
01:02:48,693 --> 01:02:52,653
Speaker 3: And since then the party has been split down the middle.

1032
01:02:52,973 --> 01:02:56,533
Speaker 3: The so called wets they call themselves moderates, but it

1033
01:02:56,573 --> 01:02:59,013
Speaker 3: would be more accurate to call them labor light types.

1034
01:02:59,613 --> 01:03:06,013
Speaker 3: They completely buy into the whole net zero climate catastrophism

1035
01:03:06,813 --> 01:03:10,613
Speaker 3: and so you know they it's a bit like the

1036
01:03:10,693 --> 01:03:13,973
Speaker 3: Tories in Britain who were in office for fourteen years

1037
01:03:13,973 --> 01:03:17,893
Speaker 3: and you know they just delivered a labor set of outcomes.

1038
01:03:17,893 --> 01:03:19,773
Speaker 3: So that's why they're in so much trouble with the

1039
01:03:19,853 --> 01:03:23,733
Speaker 3: Reform Party. Well, this is happening in Australia. I mean

1040
01:03:23,733 --> 01:03:28,453
Speaker 3: the nine years of coalition government. The university's got woker.

1041
01:03:28,773 --> 01:03:32,413
Speaker 3: It was Scott Morrison, a Liberal Prime minister, who committed

1042
01:03:32,453 --> 01:03:35,453
Speaker 3: Austria to net zero, even though he'd gone to the

1043
01:03:35,573 --> 01:03:38,813
Speaker 3: previous election saying he wouldn't do it. And so what

1044
01:03:38,853 --> 01:03:41,413
Speaker 3: has happened is they've just sold their voting base over

1045
01:03:41,453 --> 01:03:43,613
Speaker 3: here in Australia the same way that the Tories did.

1046
01:03:44,133 --> 01:03:47,053
Speaker 3: And what's happened is that this tiny little protest party

1047
01:03:47,093 --> 01:03:50,813
Speaker 3: called One Nation started lacking a sort of Nigel Farage pigger.

1048
01:03:51,693 --> 01:03:56,733
Speaker 3: In the last three months it's gone by rocketed in

1049
01:03:56,733 --> 01:03:58,853
Speaker 3: the polls. It's ahead of the Liberal Party, it's ahead

1050
01:03:58,893 --> 01:04:03,053
Speaker 3: of coalition, it's leading in the polls in the state

1051
01:04:03,093 --> 01:04:07,093
Speaker 3: of Victoria. This is the Pauline Hanson Party. And that

1052
01:04:07,293 --> 01:04:11,813
Speaker 3: scared the Beji Jesus out of the Federal Liberal Party

1053
01:04:11,813 --> 01:04:13,293
Speaker 3: and they got rid of Susan Lee and they brought

1054
01:04:13,293 --> 01:04:16,333
Speaker 3: in Angus Taylor. Now Angus Taylor, Rhodes scholar, smart guy.

1055
01:04:17,333 --> 01:04:19,933
Speaker 3: I wouldn't say he was particularly brave. I mean during

1056
01:04:20,013 --> 01:04:25,293
Speaker 3: the thuggish coalition lockdowns, he didn't resign and say I

1057
01:04:25,413 --> 01:04:28,813
Speaker 3: want to be a part of this illiberal thuggishness. But

1058
01:04:28,853 --> 01:04:32,173
Speaker 3: then neither did anyone else. So you have to pick someone.

1059
01:04:32,653 --> 01:04:36,293
Speaker 3: And they have been voting under Susan Lee. They voted

1060
01:04:36,373 --> 01:04:40,293
Speaker 3: for some but I think are terrible speech inhibiting laws

1061
01:04:40,333 --> 01:04:43,013
Speaker 3: and the you know often the laws were designed by

1062
01:04:43,053 --> 01:04:45,453
Speaker 3: the Liberal Party. So that has also driven voters to

1063
01:04:45,533 --> 01:04:48,693
Speaker 3: the One Nation Party. But Taylor is going to be

1064
01:04:48,813 --> 01:04:50,373
Speaker 3: good on renewable energy.

1065
01:04:50,733 --> 01:04:54,173
Speaker 2: I mean he's already he's already stucky Styke in the

1066
01:04:54,173 --> 01:04:54,653
Speaker 2: ground on that.

1067
01:04:55,293 --> 01:04:57,813
Speaker 3: Yeah. But the problem is over half of the party

1068
01:04:57,853 --> 01:05:01,613
Speaker 3: room and they picked the leader. Over half of the

1069
01:05:01,613 --> 01:05:04,853
Speaker 3: party room are moderate and they are people who like

1070
01:05:05,013 --> 01:05:09,693
Speaker 3: the They like the sort of renewable energy subsidies, They

1071
01:05:09,813 --> 01:05:12,493
Speaker 3: like all this stuff. So the real question is can

1072
01:05:12,533 --> 01:05:16,133
Speaker 3: Angus Taylor impose his will on them? And you know,

1073
01:05:16,173 --> 01:05:18,173
Speaker 3: as long as one nation's high up in the polls,

1074
01:05:18,213 --> 01:05:21,293
Speaker 3: maybe because they're scared. I mean on the present poll

1075
01:05:21,333 --> 01:05:24,413
Speaker 3: in South Australia, they're coming up to a state election.

1076
01:05:24,973 --> 01:05:27,173
Speaker 3: The Liberal Party will not have a single seat in

1077
01:05:27,213 --> 01:05:30,693
Speaker 3: the legislature. So with those kind of polling numbers, maybe,

1078
01:05:31,693 --> 01:05:33,693
Speaker 3: But again, you know the problem is he can say

1079
01:05:33,733 --> 01:05:38,613
Speaker 3: one thing, but if his own party refuses to do

1080
01:05:38,693 --> 01:05:40,853
Speaker 3: it after the election, and this is what happened to Abbott.

1081
01:05:40,853 --> 01:05:43,253
Speaker 3: He said he would repeal the horrible hate speech flaws

1082
01:05:43,373 --> 01:05:46,533
Speaker 3: and his own party balked and then they removed him.

1083
01:05:47,013 --> 01:05:50,453
Speaker 3: And so he's going to have to convince voters that. Now.

1084
01:05:50,573 --> 01:05:52,933
Speaker 3: You know, again you can show there's some weakness because

1085
01:05:53,093 --> 01:05:57,133
Speaker 3: when he reshuffled the shadow cabinet, he put in Andrew

1086
01:05:57,213 --> 01:06:01,413
Speaker 3: Bragg as the Environment shadow Minister, the man who said

1087
01:06:01,453 --> 01:06:05,573
Speaker 3: under Susan Lee that he'd quit her shadow cabinet if

1088
01:06:05,613 --> 01:06:09,493
Speaker 3: she pulled out of that zero. So you know, he's

1089
01:06:09,493 --> 01:06:13,293
Speaker 3: a he's a climate alarmist. Now maybe that's a compromise

1090
01:06:13,333 --> 01:06:15,573
Speaker 3: Taylor had to make. Now I think Taylor's own instincts

1091
01:06:15,573 --> 01:06:19,133
Speaker 3: are good. He's a you know, he's a he's an

1092
01:06:19,133 --> 01:06:22,093
Speaker 3: ex Mackenzie's kind of guy, and he sees the world

1093
01:06:22,213 --> 01:06:28,253
Speaker 3: like consultants do, so smart. I wouldn't characterize anybody in

1094
01:06:28,333 --> 01:06:33,053
Speaker 3: the current coalition ranks as brave except for Alexantik very

1095
01:06:33,093 --> 01:06:36,213
Speaker 3: brave and Matt Cannevan, neither of whom are in the

1096
01:06:36,213 --> 01:06:41,093
Speaker 3: shadow cabinet. So yeah, I mean, Taylor's obviously better than

1097
01:06:41,133 --> 01:06:43,973
Speaker 3: Susan Lee, and I think he's obviously better than anyone

1098
01:06:44,053 --> 01:06:44,613
Speaker 3: we've had.

1099
01:06:46,493 --> 01:06:50,373
Speaker 2: Well, whether it doesn't mean he can get anything done,

1100
01:06:50,613 --> 01:06:53,373
Speaker 2: Whether whether he succeeds or not depends on one thing.

1101
01:06:55,693 --> 01:06:59,093
Speaker 2: What's that Whether or not he listens to his wife.

1102
01:07:00,533 --> 01:07:02,853
Speaker 3: Yes, she's good, although you know, by my standard she's

1103
01:07:03,253 --> 01:07:05,333
Speaker 3: she's a bit soft on a few things. But I know,

1104
01:07:05,613 --> 01:07:08,053
Speaker 3: I know, I know Louise, and she's she is smart,

1105
01:07:08,093 --> 01:07:13,493
Speaker 3: and she's good and she's conservative, and uh, you know

1106
01:07:13,533 --> 01:07:16,133
Speaker 3: that's my I want to I want to coin something

1107
01:07:16,173 --> 01:07:18,813
Speaker 3: called Allen's law, which is that you know, any male

1108
01:07:18,893 --> 01:07:22,853
Speaker 3: politician or judge who has a guardian reading wife will

1109
01:07:22,893 --> 01:07:27,293
Speaker 3: move left. And Louise is not a guardian reading wife

1110
01:07:27,773 --> 01:07:30,573
Speaker 3: because you know, it's it's not one hundred percent rule,

1111
01:07:30,613 --> 01:07:32,573
Speaker 3: but it's pretty close to one hundred percent rule. That

1112
01:07:33,253 --> 01:07:36,813
Speaker 3: these male politicians, male judges who have wives, who are

1113
01:07:37,853 --> 01:07:41,653
Speaker 3: you know, pretty left wing, they don't seem to hold

1114
01:07:41,653 --> 01:07:42,453
Speaker 3: the line on anything.

1115
01:07:42,733 --> 01:07:46,173
Speaker 2: It's true, it's true. It's true the world, it's true.

1116
01:07:46,173 --> 01:07:49,613
Speaker 3: The whereas you know, Louise is good, I mean, Angsteel

1117
01:07:49,653 --> 01:07:53,973
Speaker 3: is good. The question is the party so broken and

1118
01:07:54,013 --> 01:07:57,533
Speaker 3: that doesn't have so many sort of rhino left the

1119
01:07:57,653 --> 01:08:01,013
Speaker 3: Conservative really and name only people who have been elected

1120
01:08:01,013 --> 01:08:03,733
Speaker 3: as MP's and they control the faction in New South Wales.

1121
01:08:03,933 --> 01:08:07,013
Speaker 3: What can he do about that? I don't know. We'll

1122
01:08:07,053 --> 01:08:09,733
Speaker 3: see at least there's hope. But I think the real

1123
01:08:09,813 --> 01:08:12,493
Speaker 3: problem right now is that Susan Lee retired. She resigned

1124
01:08:12,533 --> 01:08:16,333
Speaker 3: immediately in a fit of peak, and there's a by

1125
01:08:16,413 --> 01:08:19,893
Speaker 3: election and she's got a sort of suburban rural constituency.

1126
01:08:20,653 --> 01:08:24,053
Speaker 3: It's quite possible that one Nation could win her seat

1127
01:08:25,133 --> 01:08:28,973
Speaker 3: in the by election, which would be, you know, not

1128
01:08:29,053 --> 01:08:31,293
Speaker 3: the way that Tangus Taylor wants to start his time.

1129
01:08:31,653 --> 01:08:36,453
Speaker 2: No, but he'd have to deal with it. On that note,

1130
01:08:37,053 --> 01:08:39,533
Speaker 2: I want, I do want you to just do one

1131
01:08:39,573 --> 01:08:43,213
Speaker 2: more thing for me. Rogue Justice The Rise of Judicial

1132
01:08:43,213 --> 01:08:50,453
Speaker 2: Supremacy in Israel by Jonatan Green Who who would appreciate

1133
01:08:50,493 --> 01:08:52,333
Speaker 2: that book? What sort of people?

1134
01:08:52,853 --> 01:08:56,573
Speaker 3: Anybody who's interested in law or politics. So not everybody,

1135
01:08:56,893 --> 01:08:58,653
Speaker 3: but if you're interested in law in policy, do you

1136
01:08:58,693 --> 01:09:01,053
Speaker 3: want to see how off the Rail's judges can go

1137
01:09:01,173 --> 01:09:05,053
Speaker 3: by becoming convinced of their own moral self worth, a

1138
01:09:05,133 --> 01:09:08,613
Speaker 3: sort of you know, reveling in their own sanctimony, to

1139
01:09:08,653 --> 01:09:12,733
Speaker 3: the point where they don't even require you know, they

1140
01:09:12,733 --> 01:09:16,413
Speaker 3: don't require a legal text. They just you know, I'm

1141
01:09:16,413 --> 01:09:18,773
Speaker 3: being a little fist, but they basically point to the

1142
01:09:18,813 --> 01:09:22,853
Speaker 3: writings of Emmanuel coun or something like that, and uh,

1143
01:09:23,853 --> 01:09:29,093
Speaker 3: and they honestly seem to believe that they can do

1144
01:09:29,133 --> 01:09:31,573
Speaker 3: a better job than the elected polity, even though they're

1145
01:09:31,573 --> 01:09:35,093
Speaker 3: completely unaccountable. If you don't like decisions they make, there's

1146
01:09:35,093 --> 01:09:37,453
Speaker 3: nothing you can do about it. If you don't like

1147
01:09:37,533 --> 01:09:40,333
Speaker 3: what politicians do and they make lots of bad decisions,

1148
01:09:40,333 --> 01:09:44,213
Speaker 3: you vote them out. And so I mean, and it's

1149
01:09:44,253 --> 01:09:49,373
Speaker 3: it's it's of course, there are some dissident lawyers and judges,

1150
01:09:49,413 --> 01:09:52,253
Speaker 3: and ISRA point this out, but you know, the Bar

1151
01:09:52,373 --> 01:09:55,373
Speaker 3: Association and the Law society, they're all on board with this,

1152
01:09:55,653 --> 01:09:57,293
Speaker 3: just the way they would be in New Zealand. We

1153
01:09:57,373 --> 01:10:00,373
Speaker 3: know they are, and so that's a problem. And you know,

1154
01:10:00,373 --> 01:10:02,093
Speaker 3: it goes right back to this I've said many times,

1155
01:10:02,173 --> 01:10:04,373
Speaker 3: goes right back to the universities and the law schools,

1156
01:10:04,373 --> 01:10:07,213
Speaker 3: which are the most left wing places you'll ever visit

1157
01:10:07,253 --> 01:10:08,493
Speaker 3: in your life.

1158
01:10:08,853 --> 01:10:09,333
Speaker 2: Indeed.

1159
01:10:09,773 --> 01:10:12,013
Speaker 3: But I would buy the fuck. I mean, he's I

1160
01:10:12,573 --> 01:10:16,093
Speaker 3: sent my review to him. He seems like an interesting guy.

1161
01:10:16,093 --> 01:10:18,813
Speaker 3: He's actually working at President in the US, I think

1162
01:10:18,853 --> 01:10:23,333
Speaker 3: at Georgetown Law School. You want it's in green, I

1163
01:10:23,373 --> 01:10:25,093
Speaker 3: asked him. I asked him in an email, would be

1164
01:10:25,093 --> 01:10:27,253
Speaker 3: allowed to go back to Israel? And he just laughed.

1165
01:10:30,093 --> 01:10:33,453
Speaker 2: I get it all right. Listen on that note, we

1166
01:10:33,453 --> 01:10:39,493
Speaker 2: we've excelled. Uh, you've excelled anyway, and we appreciate it.

1167
01:10:40,333 --> 01:10:44,253
Speaker 2: And I can only say thank you again. And we're

1168
01:10:44,253 --> 01:10:45,453
Speaker 2: going to get to Brisbane this year.

1169
01:10:45,933 --> 01:10:46,493
Speaker 3: Yes, she did that.

1170
01:10:46,613 --> 01:10:49,413
Speaker 2: Let me know we will go for coming. It's in

1171
01:10:49,453 --> 01:10:52,973
Speaker 2: the it's in the pipeline. So thank you, thank you,

1172
01:10:53,133 --> 01:10:56,493
Speaker 2: and we'll see we'll talk to you again sometime in

1173
01:10:56,573 --> 01:10:58,333
Speaker 2: the not too far away.

1174
01:10:58,733 --> 01:11:13,653
Speaker 4: Bye bye.

1175
01:11:14,893 --> 01:11:18,133
Speaker 2: I went to the mail room for podcast three hundred

1176
01:11:18,213 --> 01:11:21,893
Speaker 2: and seventeen. This is producer. You're looking well today.

1177
01:11:21,853 --> 01:11:24,293
Speaker 5: Three hundred and seventeen, isn't that crazy?

1178
01:11:24,413 --> 01:11:24,733
Speaker 3: Latent?

1179
01:11:25,333 --> 01:11:26,893
Speaker 5: Have these years gone?

1180
01:11:27,093 --> 01:11:30,733
Speaker 2: Everything is crazy, everything is start. I've even got an

1181
01:11:30,733 --> 01:11:34,133
Speaker 2: email here somewhere. I think that indicates that the world

1182
01:11:34,213 --> 01:11:35,013
Speaker 2: is crazy.

1183
01:11:35,733 --> 01:11:37,893
Speaker 5: Oh. I think you have those every week, don't you?

1184
01:11:37,933 --> 01:11:41,213
Speaker 5: Either that or you're writing them yourself. I've never thought

1185
01:11:41,213 --> 01:11:45,173
Speaker 5: of that, you know, Oh, I bet you have. This

1186
01:11:45,253 --> 01:11:48,773
Speaker 5: is from Gary in January twenty twenty six. The whole

1187
01:11:48,853 --> 01:11:53,853
Speaker 5: geopolitical world rapidly changed and moved forward when US President

1188
01:11:53,933 --> 01:11:58,253
Speaker 5: Donald Trump made in order to invade and capture Dictator Maduro.

1189
01:11:58,893 --> 01:12:01,653
Speaker 5: What fascinates me is not about Donald Trump. It is

1190
01:12:01,733 --> 01:12:04,733
Speaker 5: about New Zealand's citizen, the level of the lack of

1191
01:12:04,813 --> 01:12:09,893
Speaker 5: understanding they have for the whole geopolitical issue. They believe

1192
01:12:09,893 --> 01:12:13,453
Speaker 5: the US is mainly for oil. Is it true? Maybe?

1193
01:12:13,493 --> 01:12:16,653
Speaker 5: But also China and Russia building up potential threats to

1194
01:12:16,693 --> 01:12:20,053
Speaker 5: the USA backyard, and that's also a major concern for

1195
01:12:20,093 --> 01:12:25,253
Speaker 5: the Trump administration. China has funded Venezuela to the tune

1196
01:12:25,253 --> 01:12:29,013
Speaker 5: of six hundred billion US dollars to build their infrastructure.

1197
01:12:29,333 --> 01:12:32,413
Speaker 5: As this corrupted government will result in ninety percent of

1198
01:12:32,413 --> 01:12:35,573
Speaker 5: the oil being imported to China, paying off as paid

1199
01:12:35,613 --> 01:12:39,493
Speaker 5: off the debt. Russia has planned to build a weapons

1200
01:12:39,573 --> 01:12:42,653
Speaker 5: facility in this South American country. So if you are

1201
01:12:42,733 --> 01:12:46,573
Speaker 5: the US president, if somebody puts a knife to your backyard,

1202
01:12:46,613 --> 01:12:50,933
Speaker 5: what would you do? Our fellow kiwis need to understand

1203
01:12:51,133 --> 01:12:55,053
Speaker 5: that this is a Cold War II scenario and it's

1204
01:12:55,093 --> 01:12:59,173
Speaker 5: already started since Trump was elected. The battle between China

1205
01:12:59,213 --> 01:13:01,253
Speaker 5: and the USA to see who is the leader of

1206
01:13:01,293 --> 01:13:04,693
Speaker 5: the world. Yes, it's all about money and power.

1207
01:13:04,973 --> 01:13:11,773
Speaker 2: That's from Gary, Gary observant The Internet is a wash.

1208
01:13:11,853 --> 01:13:16,653
Speaker 2: With testimony from medical practitioners of the efficacy of ivermecton

1209
01:13:16,933 --> 01:13:21,333
Speaker 2: in the early treatment of COVID nineteen, then underlined doctor

1210
01:13:21,493 --> 01:13:26,533
Speaker 2: found guilty of misconduct over prescribing ivermectin, but says Graham,

1211
01:13:26,973 --> 01:13:31,973
Speaker 2: ivermectin is a long standing, safe and inexpensive medication. There's

1212
01:13:31,973 --> 01:13:35,253
Speaker 2: no money unit for big farmer. There's huge money for

1213
01:13:35,293 --> 01:13:39,253
Speaker 2: big farmer, however, in the exclusive use of vaccines to

1214
01:13:39,333 --> 01:13:43,893
Speaker 2: treat a pandemic, and big money for politicians who do

1215
01:13:43,973 --> 01:13:45,173
Speaker 2: big Farmer's bidding.

1216
01:13:45,933 --> 01:13:50,013
Speaker 5: Leyton Tony says, a good interview with a very interesting man,

1217
01:13:50,053 --> 01:13:52,653
Speaker 5: and he talks about Mike Schmidt. He said, I thought

1218
01:13:52,693 --> 01:13:55,533
Speaker 5: his dismissal of Luxeon as a leader was damning.

1219
01:13:55,973 --> 01:13:59,693
Speaker 2: Well, we're all entitled to our interpretations, of course, and

1220
01:13:59,733 --> 01:14:06,253
Speaker 2: it's intriguing the reaction that has appeared after that discussion. Tony.

1221
01:14:06,293 --> 01:14:11,813
Speaker 2: Thank you. Now there's still a number of congratulations that

1222
01:14:11,893 --> 01:14:15,733
Speaker 2: haven't been recognized, and I don't think we're going to

1223
01:14:15,773 --> 01:14:18,813
Speaker 2: be able to go through them all. But here's one

1224
01:14:18,853 --> 01:14:21,733
Speaker 2: that is a cover all if you like, just a

1225
01:14:21,813 --> 01:14:23,733
Speaker 2: quick word to wish you a massive and well deserved

1226
01:14:23,733 --> 01:14:27,373
Speaker 2: congratulations for the appointment of the New Zealand Order of Merit.

1227
01:14:27,733 --> 01:14:31,573
Speaker 2: That was from James in Neilson. There was another one

1228
01:14:31,653 --> 01:14:36,413
Speaker 2: that I thought I should make comment on run across

1229
01:14:36,453 --> 01:14:39,973
Speaker 2: the Tasman. I wish to congratulate you on your m

1230
01:14:40,133 --> 01:14:43,173
Speaker 2: n z M award. It reflects well on your work

1231
01:14:43,293 --> 01:14:47,813
Speaker 2: and your influence in the community over the years. Appreciate that.

1232
01:14:48,253 --> 01:14:51,573
Speaker 2: I'm very kind of you, and I just wonder if

1233
01:14:51,613 --> 01:14:53,173
Speaker 2: it's not an exaggeration.

1234
01:14:55,093 --> 01:15:00,013
Speaker 5: And relating to the same topic, Rayven says, I took

1235
01:15:00,053 --> 01:15:03,013
Speaker 5: a much break from technology over the silly season. I'm

1236
01:15:03,333 --> 01:15:06,613
Speaker 5: embarrassed to say that I had absolutely no idea of

1237
01:15:06,653 --> 01:15:10,413
Speaker 5: your recent recognition and over the new year. I generally

1238
01:15:10,453 --> 01:15:13,013
Speaker 5: take no notice of these awards because of the people

1239
01:15:13,053 --> 01:15:16,613
Speaker 5: they generally nominate, particularly over the last couple of years.

1240
01:15:17,093 --> 01:15:20,093
Speaker 5: What surprises me is that you've never received one before.

1241
01:15:20,733 --> 01:15:23,893
Speaker 5: How amiss that they have taken this long to recognize

1242
01:15:23,933 --> 01:15:28,453
Speaker 5: your work and intelligence. And there's more, But Raymond, thank

1243
01:15:28,493 --> 01:15:30,613
Speaker 5: you so much, really appreciate it.

1244
01:15:31,173 --> 01:15:33,853
Speaker 2: Now. This one is a little more involved related. Congrats

1245
01:15:33,893 --> 01:15:37,453
Speaker 2: on your well deserved honor. An anxious year ahead, I've

1246
01:15:37,493 --> 01:15:41,053
Speaker 2: indicated to friends that if the unthinkable occurs, with an

1247
01:15:41,093 --> 01:15:45,333
Speaker 2: incoming labor Greens government inflicted on this long suffering little country,

1248
01:15:46,053 --> 01:15:49,813
Speaker 2: I shall sell up and move to Noosa or somewhere similar.

1249
01:15:50,613 --> 01:15:54,533
Speaker 2: At the age of eighty five, I could not endure

1250
01:15:54,613 --> 01:15:58,293
Speaker 2: the daily agony of three years of mismanagement ruining my

1251
01:15:58,413 --> 01:16:03,653
Speaker 2: remaining declining years. What a miserable prospect. Indeed, reading the

1252
01:16:03,693 --> 01:16:06,853
Speaker 2: Herald Daily is bad enough, with generally negative or slarted

1253
01:16:06,853 --> 01:16:12,293
Speaker 2: inputs toward the cold. Attached are just two recent examples.

1254
01:16:12,293 --> 01:16:16,773
Speaker 2: Bruce Cottrell's article was a welcome respite, but the editorial

1255
01:16:16,813 --> 01:16:22,573
Speaker 2: clowns have almost immediately highlighted a lefty reader's supposed rebuttal.

1256
01:16:23,493 --> 01:16:27,733
Speaker 2: Mister Kenny's attempted defense of Hipkins and Adrian Or is

1257
01:16:27,893 --> 01:16:30,693
Speaker 2: wrong on so many fronts Now. I haven't seen this.

1258
01:16:30,773 --> 01:16:33,333
Speaker 2: I don't know, but I could only say this should

1259
01:16:33,333 --> 01:16:36,653
Speaker 2: be no great surprise. The cartoons are particularly biased. I

1260
01:16:36,693 --> 01:16:39,733
Speaker 2: recalled one of your contributions. I recall one of your

1261
01:16:39,773 --> 01:16:45,653
Speaker 2: contributors recently referred to Herald's communist cartoonists are pretty justified.

1262
01:16:45,733 --> 01:16:51,253
Speaker 2: Emerson is vicious in depicting pleasant faced Winston grotesquely as

1263
01:16:51,293 --> 01:16:54,773
Speaker 2: an evil looking fellow. A cartoon in Sunday Herald two

1264
01:16:54,773 --> 01:16:58,253
Speaker 2: weeks ago was one I meant to save and sends

1265
01:16:58,253 --> 01:17:03,093
Speaker 2: you as illustrative. I don't like that word. Illustrative. Letters

1266
01:17:03,133 --> 01:17:06,733
Speaker 2: from climate catastrophists are almost daily. I wish someone with

1267
01:17:06,853 --> 01:17:10,853
Speaker 2: credentials would respond, oh, well, we opponents of the unthinkable

1268
01:17:10,933 --> 01:17:14,213
Speaker 2: just need to battle on. Well that's a better attitude

1269
01:17:14,213 --> 01:17:18,013
Speaker 2: at the end, battling on than surrendering and scarpering off

1270
01:17:18,053 --> 01:17:22,253
Speaker 2: the NUSA. Although, while you're looking around, see if you

1271
01:17:22,253 --> 01:17:23,733
Speaker 2: can find someplace for me.

1272
01:17:25,293 --> 01:17:29,133
Speaker 5: That didn't go down well. Leidon Nadia says, I saw

1273
01:17:29,133 --> 01:17:31,053
Speaker 5: in the Herald today that you've received the Order of

1274
01:17:31,173 --> 01:17:35,093
Speaker 5: Merit award for services to broadcasting. I'm sure, I'm one

1275
01:17:35,093 --> 01:17:37,853
Speaker 5: of many many people saying this, but I genuinely believe

1276
01:17:37,893 --> 01:17:40,853
Speaker 5: this is well deserved. I listen to your podcast when

1277
01:17:40,893 --> 01:17:43,053
Speaker 5: I go for a longer run each week. I look

1278
01:17:43,133 --> 01:17:46,293
Speaker 5: forward to it. I value the many different perspectives and

1279
01:17:46,373 --> 01:17:49,933
Speaker 5: think as you bring, and not just around climate, the economy,

1280
01:17:50,013 --> 01:17:53,733
Speaker 5: and COVID related but even topics like gold. So thank

1281
01:17:53,773 --> 01:17:57,613
Speaker 5: you for your time and efforts. It's genuinely appreciated. That's

1282
01:17:57,613 --> 01:17:58,253
Speaker 5: from Nadia.

1283
01:17:58,413 --> 01:18:03,253
Speaker 2: Nadia, that is genuinely appreciated. Now, I'm just looking for

1284
01:18:03,853 --> 01:18:07,093
Speaker 2: one last one that I thought I would include. I

1285
01:18:07,373 --> 01:18:11,693
Speaker 2: pondered it. Now this is one comment with a difference,

1286
01:18:12,053 --> 01:18:14,293
Speaker 2: but there is one line in it that I wanted

1287
01:18:14,333 --> 01:18:17,933
Speaker 2: to include. It toward us, the last one Leo. I

1288
01:18:17,973 --> 01:18:21,613
Speaker 2: noted today's gospel account of Jesus encountered with Satan during

1289
01:18:21,613 --> 01:18:25,013
Speaker 2: his forty days in the desert, his prototype of our Lent.

1290
01:18:25,773 --> 01:18:29,173
Speaker 2: I particularly noted the devil's temptation of Jesus with material

1291
01:18:29,253 --> 01:18:33,333
Speaker 2: wealth and power. Satan showed Jesus the principalities of the

1292
01:18:33,373 --> 01:18:38,533
Speaker 2: world over which he claimed control and which control authority

1293
01:18:38,733 --> 01:18:42,933
Speaker 2: power he offered Jesus if Jesus would worship him. I'm

1294
01:18:42,933 --> 01:18:46,173
Speaker 2: familiar with the forty days in the desert, but I'm

1295
01:18:46,853 --> 01:18:50,693
Speaker 2: unfamiliar with so much detail. On one hand, it's unlikely

1296
01:18:50,733 --> 01:18:53,333
Speaker 2: the devil would claim in the face of Jesus that

1297
01:18:53,413 --> 01:18:56,373
Speaker 2: he had control of all the worldly powers if it

1298
01:18:56,373 --> 01:18:59,773
Speaker 2: were not so. On the other hand, Jesus did not

1299
01:18:59,933 --> 01:19:04,573
Speaker 2: challenge that claim. Simply Jesus told Satan to shove off

1300
01:19:05,373 --> 01:19:08,293
Speaker 2: on the basis that we must worship only the law

1301
01:19:08,413 --> 01:19:13,893
Speaker 2: our God. So Satan had control over nations approximately two

1302
01:19:14,013 --> 01:19:19,293
Speaker 2: thousand years ago. He comes to the line, is there

1303
01:19:19,333 --> 01:19:23,253
Speaker 2: any reason to think that's changed? And my interpretation is

1304
01:19:23,653 --> 01:19:25,013
Speaker 2: that the world's been a mess for a hell of

1305
01:19:25,053 --> 01:19:29,053
Speaker 2: a long time and it's still messing up. So you know,

1306
01:19:29,253 --> 01:19:35,213
Speaker 2: nothing's nothing's changed. That's all this is, Producer, Thank you,

1307
01:19:35,533 --> 01:19:38,253
Speaker 2: thank you so much for being here. I look forward

1308
01:19:38,293 --> 01:19:44,213
Speaker 2: to seeing you again next week now, missus producer. Having

1309
01:19:44,373 --> 01:19:48,533
Speaker 2: just slipped out, this is the second of two at

1310
01:19:48,613 --> 01:19:51,533
Speaker 2: least two emails that we got during the week with

1311
01:19:51,693 --> 01:19:57,373
Speaker 2: regard to the doctor being convicted, Alan writes, after listening

1312
01:19:57,373 --> 01:20:01,173
Speaker 2: to your podcast with doctor Pier Corey and now reading

1313
01:20:01,213 --> 01:20:04,853
Speaker 2: his book The War on Ivermecton, I was very disturbed

1314
01:20:04,853 --> 01:20:07,453
Speaker 2: to read this article in the Nelson mail on eighteen

1315
01:20:07,573 --> 01:20:12,693
Speaker 2: February this year. I think doctor Caroline Wheeler needs some

1316
01:20:12,813 --> 01:20:17,613
Speaker 2: assistance in dealing with the misconduct charge and her legal team.

1317
01:20:17,693 --> 01:20:22,253
Speaker 2: Given the facts, the facts surrounding the efficacy of ivermecton

1318
01:20:22,693 --> 01:20:26,613
Speaker 2: and the background to its use during the COVID nineteen pandemic,

1319
01:20:26,733 --> 01:20:31,853
Speaker 2: what do you think? Well, my response can only go

1320
01:20:31,933 --> 01:20:36,133
Speaker 2: this way. I don't have enough information. And what I

1321
01:20:36,173 --> 01:20:41,493
Speaker 2: mean by that is that the report pointed out some things,

1322
01:20:41,613 --> 01:20:44,693
Speaker 2: or at least she was charged convicted whatever of some

1323
01:20:45,413 --> 01:20:48,453
Speaker 2: things like not writing a proper prescription or something like

1324
01:20:48,493 --> 01:20:51,613
Speaker 2: that and not doing this or not doing that, rather

1325
01:20:51,653 --> 01:20:56,413
Speaker 2: than there were backups really for the prosecution so that

1326
01:20:56,413 --> 01:20:58,813
Speaker 2: it wasn't just one charge on ivermecton. Because if that

1327
01:20:58,893 --> 01:21:02,093
Speaker 2: was the case, I have a feeling that she wouldn't

1328
01:21:02,093 --> 01:21:05,013
Speaker 2: have been convicted. Could be wrong. I'm only guessing. But

1329
01:21:05,053 --> 01:21:09,173
Speaker 2: when you add these other little things in, you see, well, okay,

1330
01:21:09,253 --> 01:21:14,893
Speaker 2: so she's okay to prescribe the ivermectin because of what

1331
01:21:15,013 --> 01:21:20,213
Speaker 2: we know now, but she didn't follow the routine in

1332
01:21:20,573 --> 01:21:23,013
Speaker 2: doing it properly, et cetera, so therefore guilty.

1333
01:21:23,533 --> 01:21:23,733
Speaker 3: Now.

1334
01:21:23,853 --> 01:21:27,613
Speaker 2: I might have been fancifying there a little bit, but

1335
01:21:28,173 --> 01:21:31,093
Speaker 2: I think there needs to be a bit more information.

1336
01:21:31,173 --> 01:21:32,853
Speaker 2: I think there should be a retrial, to be honest,

1337
01:21:33,333 --> 01:21:36,653
Speaker 2: but I don't know how that would come about at

1338
01:21:36,653 --> 01:21:40,733
Speaker 2: this point anyway. So to the author, Alan, thank you

1339
01:21:40,933 --> 01:21:44,813
Speaker 2: appreciate it, and we covered it off as best we could.

1340
01:21:45,453 --> 01:21:47,613
Speaker 2: Now in a moment, we'll have a very lengthy submission

1341
01:21:47,813 --> 01:22:05,653
Speaker 2: with regard to politics, and so too the contribution of

1342
01:22:05,773 --> 01:22:10,173
Speaker 2: the former National Party who is known to me but

1343
01:22:10,733 --> 01:22:14,973
Speaker 2: as retaining anonymity, And this is the lengthiest that that

1344
01:22:15,413 --> 01:22:20,053
Speaker 2: individual has submitted. And it goes like this, very thought

1345
01:22:20,093 --> 01:22:22,733
Speaker 2: inspiring guests for your first two podcasts of the year.

1346
01:22:23,373 --> 01:22:28,573
Speaker 2: There was an intriguing juxtaposition between Shane Jones, the somewhat

1347
01:22:28,613 --> 01:22:33,533
Speaker 2: mercurial understudy to Winston Peters, and doctor Mike Schmidt, who

1348
01:22:33,693 --> 01:22:37,653
Speaker 2: skillfully characterized the self serving nature of the bureaucracy and

1349
01:22:37,693 --> 01:22:41,813
Speaker 2: the relationship they hold with their political masters. Both guests

1350
01:22:41,933 --> 01:22:45,053
Speaker 2: set out some of the cornerstone issues that have caused

1351
01:22:45,133 --> 01:22:48,853
Speaker 2: increasing political paralysis in New Zealand over the past quarter

1352
01:22:48,933 --> 01:22:53,693
Speaker 2: century or so. The question I would oppose, somewhat rhetorically,

1353
01:22:54,373 --> 01:22:58,693
Speaker 2: is whether the combination of three year terms MMP and

1354
01:22:58,813 --> 01:23:02,693
Speaker 2: the apparent self fulfilling prophecies of the bureaucracy has become

1355
01:23:02,733 --> 01:23:05,853
Speaker 2: a monster that is more than the sum of its parts.

1356
01:23:06,373 --> 01:23:09,053
Speaker 2: Probably the best way to unpack my question is to

1357
01:23:09,173 --> 01:23:12,493
Speaker 2: use one of mister Jones's own examples, when he discussed

1358
01:23:12,533 --> 01:23:15,493
Speaker 2: the fact that New Zealand lacks the ability, as the

1359
01:23:15,653 --> 01:23:21,693
Speaker 2: US do, to have CEOs of government departments stand down

1360
01:23:21,773 --> 01:23:24,533
Speaker 2: at the time of a change of government, in other words,

1361
01:23:24,813 --> 01:23:29,453
Speaker 2: contracts that are contingent on terms of government. The rationale

1362
01:23:29,493 --> 01:23:33,373
Speaker 2: is something that doctor Schmidt alluded to being the nature

1363
01:23:33,413 --> 01:23:36,933
Speaker 2: of bureaucracy as a self serving, at agenda led machine,

1364
01:23:37,533 --> 01:23:42,413
Speaker 2: capable of surreptitiously surviving through appeasing governments that clash with

1365
01:23:42,573 --> 01:23:48,213
Speaker 2: their worldview while maintaining their underlying agenda, all while they

1366
01:23:48,293 --> 01:23:52,933
Speaker 2: await a more accommodating or inept replacement to take the

1367
01:23:53,013 --> 01:23:56,773
Speaker 2: reins of power. The bureaucracy doesn't care which it is.

1368
01:23:57,533 --> 01:24:01,173
Speaker 2: The point being either an agenda aligned government or one

1369
01:24:01,213 --> 01:24:05,693
Speaker 2: that is led by ministers who lack institutional knowledge and

1370
01:24:05,853 --> 01:24:10,493
Speaker 2: real world experience are equal fully malleable to a bureaucracy

1371
01:24:10,613 --> 01:24:13,733
Speaker 2: bent on driving its own agenda. So it is that

1372
01:24:13,773 --> 01:24:16,533
Speaker 2: Shane Jones, not for the first time, talks about championing

1373
01:24:16,773 --> 01:24:21,573
Speaker 2: the US model where CEOs within the bureaucracy are contracted

1374
01:24:21,613 --> 01:24:24,973
Speaker 2: for terms of government so that a new government that

1375
01:24:25,093 --> 01:24:28,453
Speaker 2: wants to change direction can appoint a chief executive that

1376
01:24:28,533 --> 01:24:31,853
Speaker 2: will drive that through the department. And this is where

1377
01:24:31,853 --> 01:24:37,053
Speaker 2: mister Jones, as an excellent exponent of MMP politics, thrives

1378
01:24:38,013 --> 01:24:41,333
Speaker 2: in the third year of the election cycle. He raises

1379
01:24:41,453 --> 01:24:46,133
Speaker 2: an eminently sensible and populist idea that he wants to champion. However,

1380
01:24:46,253 --> 01:24:49,333
Speaker 2: it won't be lost on your listeners that mister Jones

1381
01:24:49,333 --> 01:24:52,053
Speaker 2: has been a minister in both New Zealand First and

1382
01:24:52,213 --> 01:24:55,573
Speaker 2: Labor governments on a number of occasions. No one can

1383
01:24:55,693 --> 01:24:59,413
Speaker 2: seriously think that it's only now that he's decided that

1384
01:24:59,493 --> 01:25:02,333
Speaker 2: this is something we need to do to control the

1385
01:25:02,333 --> 01:25:06,453
Speaker 2: bureaucracy more effectively. Of course not, He has mentioned it

1386
01:25:06,493 --> 01:25:09,213
Speaker 2: a number of times over the years. This is a

1387
01:25:09,253 --> 01:25:13,013
Speaker 2: perfect working example of how MMP politicians play the game,

1388
01:25:13,773 --> 01:25:17,733
Speaker 2: the game being to get re elected, not to change

1389
01:25:17,733 --> 01:25:21,413
Speaker 2: the fundamentals of the machine that provides their power. What

1390
01:25:21,533 --> 01:25:24,573
Speaker 2: mister Jones was doing was deflecting to the bureaucracy as

1391
01:25:24,613 --> 01:25:29,613
Speaker 2: the encumbrance on policy outcomes and progress, despite the fact

1392
01:25:29,653 --> 01:25:32,253
Speaker 2: that he has on many occasions been in a position

1393
01:25:32,333 --> 01:25:35,533
Speaker 2: to do the very thing that he wants again, Champions.

1394
01:25:36,493 --> 01:25:41,053
Speaker 2: But why you ask, well, as because all savvy politicians

1395
01:25:41,453 --> 01:25:43,413
Speaker 2: what to be able to point the finger of blame

1396
01:25:43,533 --> 01:25:47,173
Speaker 2: elsewhere when progress in their own policy agenda is invariably

1397
01:25:47,213 --> 01:25:50,133
Speaker 2: slower than they would want, or as the price they

1398
01:25:50,173 --> 01:25:52,893
Speaker 2: pay for talking about the problem rather than fixing it,

1399
01:25:53,373 --> 01:25:58,653
Speaker 2: which often comes with inherent challenges and risks. Its counterintuitive,

1400
01:25:59,213 --> 01:26:03,653
Speaker 2: but removing the impediments they're essentially pointing to with a

1401
01:26:03,653 --> 01:26:07,293
Speaker 2: policy idea like this would give them nothing to deflect

1402
01:26:07,413 --> 01:26:10,733
Speaker 2: to that on its own is not the sole pawn

1403
01:26:10,773 --> 01:26:13,893
Speaker 2: in the game. However, the other key strategy within our

1404
01:26:13,973 --> 01:26:18,253
Speaker 2: current political paradigm is the need for differentiation for the

1405
01:26:18,293 --> 01:26:22,053
Speaker 2: minor parties. For one year out of every three when

1406
01:26:22,053 --> 01:26:25,293
Speaker 2: they're in power. New Zealand First has been crushed time

1407
01:26:25,333 --> 01:26:28,573
Speaker 2: and time again when it shares the government benches and

1408
01:26:28,973 --> 01:26:32,893
Speaker 2: seeks a second term of government. They must differentiate themselves

1409
01:26:32,893 --> 01:26:37,053
Speaker 2: to avoid this again and survive. They must blame their

1410
01:26:37,093 --> 01:26:41,653
Speaker 2: partners for not achieving their election promised policy agenda. This

1411
01:26:41,813 --> 01:26:44,573
Speaker 2: is why Winston Peters fought so hard and of course

1412
01:26:44,653 --> 01:26:48,173
Speaker 2: won to have his stint as Deputy PM in the

1413
01:26:48,173 --> 01:26:51,133
Speaker 2: first half of this term so that he could start

1414
01:26:51,173 --> 01:26:55,173
Speaker 2: pointing out all the faults and weaknesses of his coalition

1415
01:26:55,293 --> 01:26:59,493
Speaker 2: partners in government, which brings us to the next pawn

1416
01:26:59,693 --> 01:27:03,413
Speaker 2: in the re election game, the so called concessions that

1417
01:27:03,493 --> 01:27:08,973
Speaker 2: coalition parties make during coalition negotiations. Evidence of this is

1418
01:27:09,133 --> 01:27:12,613
Speaker 2: already appearing with all three leaders as they espouse a

1419
01:27:12,773 --> 01:27:17,293
Speaker 2: foe vexed frustration how they couldn't achieve policy A or

1420
01:27:17,413 --> 01:27:21,933
Speaker 2: objective B because they have to compromise as part of

1421
01:27:22,213 --> 01:27:27,013
Speaker 2: forming a coalition. That's how our democracy works. Quite they

1422
01:27:27,093 --> 01:27:30,733
Speaker 2: keep telling us with a gas lighting tone in their voice.

1423
01:27:30,893 --> 01:27:34,733
Speaker 2: In other words, they have another default, primer facie justification

1424
01:27:35,493 --> 01:27:38,893
Speaker 2: for not achieving their bold promises that they campaigned on.

1425
01:27:39,733 --> 01:27:43,533
Speaker 2: All three governing parties have a perpetual hamster wheel of

1426
01:27:43,693 --> 01:27:47,853
Speaker 2: justification to anchor their failure to get their big bold

1427
01:27:47,973 --> 01:27:52,533
Speaker 2: promises over the line. Now, this isn't an exclusive domain

1428
01:27:52,613 --> 01:27:55,493
Speaker 2: of New Zealand. First of course actor doing the same

1429
01:27:55,613 --> 01:27:58,533
Speaker 2: right now, Albeit David Seymour will be more stifled in

1430
01:27:58,573 --> 01:28:02,333
Speaker 2: his efforts as it's not becoming of the Deputy PM

1431
01:28:02,733 --> 01:28:06,133
Speaker 2: to criticize the government he is leading. I'd only insert

1432
01:28:06,173 --> 01:28:09,413
Speaker 2: here at this point that that apply or as applicable.

1433
01:28:09,413 --> 01:28:14,413
Speaker 2: As mister Jones pointed out, I believe up to the

1434
01:28:14,613 --> 01:28:19,493
Speaker 2: time that the campaign gets official, and then all the

1435
01:28:19,573 --> 01:28:24,293
Speaker 2: harnesses are off. The author goes on. Winston, Winston and Jonesy,

1436
01:28:24,413 --> 01:28:27,613
Speaker 2: on the other hand, will be unrelenting and I'm picking

1437
01:28:27,693 --> 01:28:31,173
Speaker 2: ruthless in their finger pointing, matched only by their bold

1438
01:28:31,213 --> 01:28:34,213
Speaker 2: promises of what they will bring to the Huskings this election.

1439
01:28:35,013 --> 01:28:38,333
Speaker 2: For example, Winston has already trotted out the abolition of

1440
01:28:38,373 --> 01:28:41,693
Speaker 2: the Mary seats. This is something he has already blamed

1441
01:28:42,213 --> 01:28:45,733
Speaker 2: the National Party in this term for not achieving the

1442
01:28:45,773 --> 01:28:48,613
Speaker 2: same thing he did with the Labor Party from his

1443
01:28:48,733 --> 01:28:53,693
Speaker 2: previous stint in government. Does that all sound familiar? Does

1444
01:28:53,733 --> 01:28:58,093
Speaker 2: that all sound familiar? What's easier and arguably better than

1445
01:28:58,133 --> 01:29:00,373
Speaker 2: having to do the hard things that you promise as

1446
01:29:00,413 --> 01:29:04,173
Speaker 2: part of your midfull power Blaming the parties you want

1447
01:29:04,213 --> 01:29:07,493
Speaker 2: to differentiate yourself from in order to take their party

1448
01:29:07,573 --> 01:29:10,853
Speaker 2: vote for hindering your ability to deliver it in the

1449
01:29:10,853 --> 01:29:15,133
Speaker 2: first place. It's politics one oh one in its purest form.

1450
01:29:15,453 --> 01:29:18,813
Speaker 2: What would disrupt this perennial process of finger pointing at

1451
01:29:18,813 --> 01:29:21,853
Speaker 2: the bureaucracy and coalition partners for not getting your big

1452
01:29:21,893 --> 01:29:27,293
Speaker 2: ticket promises over the line longer parliamentary terms. So is

1453
01:29:27,333 --> 01:29:30,653
Speaker 2: it any wonder that all three governing parties and labor

1454
01:29:30,693 --> 01:29:33,293
Speaker 2: for that matter, have all championed the idea of four

1455
01:29:33,373 --> 01:29:37,053
Speaker 2: year terms, yet no one has actually put a referendum

1456
01:29:37,053 --> 01:29:40,413
Speaker 2: together or simply put the legislation forward to do it.

1457
01:29:41,133 --> 01:29:43,853
Speaker 2: Turkeys are never going to vote for Christmas, are they?

1458
01:29:44,253 --> 01:29:47,573
Speaker 2: So what are we to make of the nexus between

1459
01:29:47,813 --> 01:29:52,853
Speaker 2: MMP three year terms and growth and growth of bureaucratic

1460
01:29:53,013 --> 01:29:56,893
Speaker 2: power and overreach, all of which I believe, says the

1461
01:29:56,933 --> 01:30:00,213
Speaker 2: author are slowly grinding the gears of our country's engine

1462
01:30:00,213 --> 01:30:02,853
Speaker 2: to a halt. In my view, it's akin to a

1463
01:30:02,853 --> 01:30:07,093
Speaker 2: political Munchausen by proxy parasitic relationship between government parties and

1464
01:30:07,133 --> 01:30:10,813
Speaker 2: the bureaucratic system that is supposed to serve them. This

1465
01:30:10,973 --> 01:30:13,613
Speaker 2: is glued in place by the three year terms. At

1466
01:30:13,653 --> 01:30:18,573
Speaker 2: its origin and ongoing existence can be sheeted home to MMP.

1467
01:30:19,693 --> 01:30:23,733
Speaker 2: They are inextricably linked to one another and each draws

1468
01:30:23,813 --> 01:30:27,693
Speaker 2: life and survival from each other. I'm confident that we

1469
01:30:27,733 --> 01:30:30,333
Speaker 2: will see this paradigm play out in the lead up

1470
01:30:30,333 --> 01:30:34,453
Speaker 2: to November's election, and more bold and ambitious promises will

1471
01:30:34,453 --> 01:30:37,613
Speaker 2: be made, and more finger pointing will occur. But the

1472
01:30:37,653 --> 01:30:41,533
Speaker 2: sad reality is that parasitic behavior comes at the cost

1473
01:30:41,693 --> 01:30:45,533
Speaker 2: of its host, in other words, our nation and us

1474
01:30:45,653 --> 01:30:50,093
Speaker 2: as its citizens. While it makes for interesting political theater,

1475
01:30:50,613 --> 01:30:53,853
Speaker 2: it is our future and prosperity that is slowly decaying

1476
01:30:53,973 --> 01:30:57,253
Speaker 2: as a result, sadly in the absence of real political

1477
01:30:57,333 --> 01:31:02,293
Speaker 2: leadership that could and would transcend our very own political swamp.

1478
01:31:02,653 --> 01:31:06,853
Speaker 2: Our vote as the one piece of power we can

1479
01:31:06,893 --> 01:31:11,613
Speaker 2: exercise in a free and democratic society, in many ways

1480
01:31:11,653 --> 01:31:15,173
Speaker 2: fuels the fire that could ultimately burn us as a

1481
01:31:15,213 --> 01:31:18,853
Speaker 2: country to the ground the end. Now, as I say,

1482
01:31:18,973 --> 01:31:23,093
Speaker 2: I've read numerous comments from this former National Party MP

1483
01:31:23,533 --> 01:31:28,013
Speaker 2: who shall remain anonymous. Now, having said all that and

1484
01:31:28,093 --> 01:31:30,813
Speaker 2: read that very long quote, if you're a politician and

1485
01:31:30,853 --> 01:31:33,413
Speaker 2: you would like to have your own say, then go

1486
01:31:33,493 --> 01:31:37,173
Speaker 2: for your life. Will I will share it? Not something

1487
01:31:37,253 --> 01:31:39,933
Speaker 2: we normally do, but this being an election year, had

1488
01:31:39,973 --> 01:31:44,133
Speaker 2: a very very important election year, I think it's appropriate to,

1489
01:31:44,373 --> 01:31:49,733
Speaker 2: shall we say, open the email and utilize it wherever

1490
01:31:49,813 --> 01:31:54,133
Speaker 2: we can. So again, if you want to comment, as say,

1491
01:31:54,173 --> 01:31:57,053
Speaker 2: put pen to paper might be difficult, sit down at

1492
01:31:57,053 --> 01:32:00,773
Speaker 2: the keyboard and bash away and let's have ab it

1493
01:32:01,293 --> 01:32:04,373
Speaker 2: as the saying goes. So that will take us out

1494
01:32:04,533 --> 01:32:07,853
Speaker 2: for podcasts three one seven. If you would like to correspond,

1495
01:32:08,013 --> 01:32:10,093
Speaker 2: late at Newstalks at be dot co dot and z

1496
01:32:10,293 --> 01:32:12,613
Speaker 2: or Carolyn at Newstalks at beat dot co dot n Z.

1497
01:32:14,013 --> 01:32:16,653
Speaker 2: We love your male, whether we agree with it or not.

1498
01:32:17,213 --> 01:32:19,373
Speaker 2: Go for your life back in a few days with

1499
01:32:20,053 --> 01:32:22,573
Speaker 2: three one ete. Until then, as always, thank you for

1500
01:32:22,653 --> 01:32:25,013
Speaker 2: listening and we will talk soon.

1501
01:32:33,013 --> 01:32:36,933
Speaker 1: Thank you for more from News Talks B Listen live

1502
01:32:37,133 --> 01:32:39,853
Speaker 1: on air or online, and keep our shows with you

1503
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