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Speaker 1: The radical policy shifts under Donald Trump's second administration, marked

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Speaker 1: by aggressive tariffs, the regulatory agendas and geopolitical tensions have

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Speaker 1: intensified global concerns about an over reliance on US tech.

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Speaker 1: Countries like New Zealand, let's face it, are dependent on

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Speaker 1: Silicon Valley's innovations. We now face heightened risks of economic coercion,

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Speaker 1: data sovereignty vulnerabilities, and supply chain instability.

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Speaker 2: This week on the.

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Speaker 1: Business of Tech, powered by two Degrees Business, I'm asking

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Speaker 1: the question, can we still trust US tech with Trump

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Speaker 1: in the White House?

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Speaker 2: After all?

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Speaker 1: European nations are exploring how to reduce reliance on US

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Speaker 1: cloud providers like AWS and Google Cloud so as to

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Speaker 1: avoid surveillance risk and fears that US laws like the

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Speaker 1: Cloud Act will be used to access data stored by

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Speaker 1: American firms over Like in the European Union, the Trump administration,

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Speaker 1: let's face it, has weaponized tarifs to retaliate against foreign

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Speaker 1: regulations targeting US tech firms. If, for instance, we were

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Speaker 1: to put a tax on streaming platforms like Netflix and

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Speaker 1: Amazon Prime to claw back some of the digital ad

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Speaker 1: dollars disappearing offshore to big tech platforms we could be

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Speaker 1: accused of extorting his tech giants. Trump wants the US

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Speaker 1: to win an artificial intelligence not just against China, but

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Speaker 1: he wants to beat everybody. Heavy dependence on US AI

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Speaker 1: platforms could stifle innovation and amplify geopolitical leverage. Does this

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Speaker 1: all sound a little bit paranoid to you? Well, maybe,

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Speaker 1: but look I don't think so. I'm hearing more and

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Speaker 1: more about digital sovereignty from people in the New Zealand

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Speaker 1: tech sector. They're worried about what is coming Guess this week.

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Speaker 1: Paris Marks, the Canadian journalist and author off the fantastic

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Speaker 1: Disconnect substack and an associated podcast, Tech Won't Save Us,

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Speaker 1: has been thinking about this a lot. He's also done

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Speaker 1: a fantastic podcast series in recent months called Data Vampires,

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Speaker 1: looking at the flurry of data center construction going on

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Speaker 1: around the world to.

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Speaker 2: Feed the AI boom.

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Speaker 1: I sat down with Paris and Wellington recently when he

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Speaker 1: was back in the country to do some talks on

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Speaker 1: the issue of digital sovereignty. Is it too late to

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Speaker 1: wean ourselves off the US tech stack? Can we steer

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Speaker 1: our own path on AI? Given the dominance, particularly of

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Speaker 1: generative AI systems built and sold by US companies like Microsoft,

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Speaker 1: OpenAI and Google. I delve into all of that and

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Speaker 1: more on episode ninety six of the Business of Tech,

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Speaker 1: and it's Paris's second appearance on the show as well.

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Speaker 1: So here he is Paris Marx on the Business of Tech,

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Speaker 1: Paris Marks, Welcome back to the Business of Tech. Great

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Speaker 1: to see you in person here in New Zealand.

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Speaker 2: Absolutely great to join you.

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Speaker 1: So you've been to New Zealand a few times in

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Speaker 1: recent years. What's the reason for this trip? You know,

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Speaker 1: I often come back.

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Speaker 3: I try to come back once a year, you know,

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Speaker 3: when it's more your summer in our winter, given that

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Speaker 3: I'm from Canada, because it's a good reason to do that.

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Speaker 3: And yeah, I just had a you know, I had

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Speaker 3: a little window I could take advantage of to come

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Speaker 3: down and so, you know, doing some interviews, doing an

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Speaker 3: event up in Auckland.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, and you know, just enjoying New Zealand for a

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Speaker 2: couple of weeks.

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Speaker 1: And that event is about the topic of digital sovereignty,

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Speaker 1: which I'll get you to define in a minute, but

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Speaker 1: very topical issue at the moment, particularly since the election

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Speaker 1: in the US, the rise again off Donald Trump and

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Speaker 1: what that means for sovereign in general, but it has

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Speaker 1: a take angle to it as well, so we'll talk

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Speaker 1: about that. So you actually were looking at studying in

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Speaker 1: New Zealand at one point as well.

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Speaker 2: What happened there? Yeah, that's right.

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Speaker 3: You know, I did a master's degree in Montreal, uh,

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Speaker 3: you know, looking at transportation and things like that, and

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Speaker 3: then because I had lived in Wellington, I looked at

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Speaker 3: potentially coming back down to Auckland. You know, I enrolled

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Speaker 3: at the University of Auckland, got a scholarship to do

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Speaker 3: a PhD all that sort of stuff. But unfortunately, at

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Speaker 3: least at the time, I don't know if it's still

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Speaker 3: the case on the student visa, you weren't allowed to

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Speaker 3: be self employed, and you know I write and make

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Speaker 3: podcasts and all this kind of stuff, and so you know,

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Speaker 3: after some discussions with immigration advisors accountants, it just seemed

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Speaker 3: that it'd be you know, too difficult to get around

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Speaker 3: that to come down. So yeah, I put those plans,

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Speaker 3: while I canceled those plans and you know, did something

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Speaker 3: else instead.

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Speaker 1: Right, And more recently, you've you've you've got the Disconnect blog,

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Speaker 1: You've got what Weekly podcast, and you've done a very

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Speaker 1: interesting series called Data Vampires, which is looking at the

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Speaker 1: proliferation of data centers around the world, and we'll put

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Speaker 1: a link to some of those episodes. That's been a

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Speaker 1: fantastic series, and we're going to talk about data centers,

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Speaker 1: but let's start with this idea of digital sovereignty. It

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Speaker 1: seems like it's becoming increasingly important to countries, to the

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Speaker 1: extent that I've had several conversations in recent weeks with

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Speaker 1: senior people in the New Zealand tech community who have

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Speaker 1: been saying something they've never said to me before. We

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Speaker 1: really need to think about whether we can trust American

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Speaker 1: technology platforms and having all of our data and applications

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Speaker 1: on them. And I'm like, wow, is it really in

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Speaker 1: the space of a couple of months. Is that how

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Speaker 1: people are thinking now? And they're looking at obviously the

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Speaker 1: tariff stuff, the weaponization off tariffs against countries that Trump

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Speaker 1: Fields are going after Big Tich, particularly in the European Union,

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Speaker 1: but Canada as well, and it won't be long before

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Speaker 1: New Zealand and Australia are on that list as well.

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Speaker 1: If we do things like a digital news Bargaining bill,

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Speaker 1: there will be repercussions so digital sovereignty is now on

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Speaker 1: the tip of everyone's tongue.

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Speaker 2: But what is it? How would you define digital sovereignty?

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Speaker 3: Yeah, it's a good question, right, and even down here,

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Speaker 3: you know, obviously not New Zealand, but Australia. When Trump

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Speaker 3: did his like Liberation Day reciprocal tariffs. One of the

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Speaker 3: justifications given for you know, the level that was applied

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Speaker 3: to Australia was the news bargaining code that they brought

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Speaker 3: in you know over there, right that that affect that

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Speaker 3: the tech companies, and the tech companies didn't like, you know,

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Speaker 3: Facebook and Google in particular, but we've seen that, you know,

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Speaker 3: they have targeted in particular these measures that have gone

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Speaker 3: after the US tech industry in Canada, in Europe, and

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Speaker 3: you know that's not going to stop, right, and they're

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Speaker 3: not going to end at the tech industry. But you know,

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Speaker 3: with what I do, that's you know, the thing that

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Speaker 3: I pay the most attention to. And so I think

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Speaker 3: it's really interesting that you say that about the kinds

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Speaker 3: of conversations that you've been having in New Zealand with

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Speaker 3: people down here, because I think that we see that

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Speaker 3: as well in Canada, in parts of Europe, in I

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Speaker 3: would say many other countries as well, right where it

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Speaker 3: has long been accepted that okay, we are using this

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Speaker 3: American technology, where using these American platforms, that is completely okay.

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Speaker 3: This is just you know, how using the internet works,

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Speaker 3: This is how you know, digital technology and you know,

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Speaker 3: what we're doing in the twenty first century.

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Speaker 2: Kind of is.

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Speaker 3: And you know, people like me have been kind of

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Speaker 3: questioning that for quite a while. Even back in the

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Speaker 3: end of last year, I co wrote a white paper

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Speaker 3: with some colleagues of mine in Europe and Latin America

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Speaker 3: kind of trying to forward this idea of digital sovereignty.

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Speaker 3: And so, you know, to actually answer your question directly,

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Speaker 3: I would say that digital sovereignty is ensuring that countries

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Speaker 3: have a better you know, control over what happens with

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Speaker 3: the technologies within their borders. And I think that one

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Speaker 3: of the things that I've been most concerned about, especially

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Speaker 3: as we have seen this shift toward, you know, further

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Speaker 3: trying to regulate what happens, you know, on these platforms

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Speaker 3: with American tech companies, is this push pack that we

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Speaker 3: have been experiencing to that those efforts at regulation and

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Speaker 3: to those efforts at just expecting that these American tech companies,

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Speaker 3: you know, align with the rules and norms and expectations

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Speaker 3: that we have for how they should operate in our countries,

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Speaker 3: and how they have been pushing back against that. And so,

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Speaker 3: you know, when it comes to digital sovereignty, the question is, okay, one,

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Speaker 3: how do we make sure that these companies, you know,

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Speaker 3: align with these rules and the values that we have

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Speaker 3: if they are not exactly in line with say the

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Speaker 3: United States and what's expected there. But then beyond that,

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Speaker 3: you know, does it actually make sense for so much

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Speaker 3: of our digital infrastructures, for so much of the services

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Speaker 3: that we rely on, for so many of the platforms

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Speaker 3: that we rely on, to be owned and controlled and

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Speaker 3: run by American companies. And you know, it's great to

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Speaker 3: start to see a broader acceptance of this because of

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Speaker 3: what Trump has been doing. But I think even without

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Speaker 3: you know, Donald Trump as a figure, this should be

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Speaker 3: a conversation that we, you know, should be having because

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Speaker 3: I think it makes a lot of sense to start

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Speaker 3: thinking about having a greater control over the infrastructures and

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Speaker 3: technologies that we use, you know, in our day to

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Speaker 3: day lives, in business, in whatever, because you know, ultimately

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Speaker 3: there's a lot of power that comes with the control

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Speaker 3: over those things.

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Speaker 1: Absolutely, and if you look at small countrylike New Zealand,

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Speaker 1: many would argue that we are a technology taker and

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Speaker 1: it's inefficient to do anything otherwise. We can't replicate that

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Speaker 1: infrastructure locally. But we're getting to the point now where

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Speaker 1: you know, our government is basically based on Microsoft Azure

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Speaker 1: and Amazon a WS. Is that a great position to

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Speaker 1: be in, particularly if Trump directs those companies to do things,

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Speaker 1: We're very vulnerable. But we are seeing pushback from governments.

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Speaker 1: You've written about this, you know, and it's it's in

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Speaker 1: things like the you know, the case of Pavel d'uov

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Speaker 1: from Telegram you've you've written about. He was arrested in

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Speaker 1: France because the French government claimed he was not complying

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Speaker 1: with efforts to police his own platform address child exploitation,

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Speaker 1: material and terrorism sort of discussion and stuff like that

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Speaker 1: on the platform. Brazil's ban on X another example of that.

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Speaker 1: The European Union in general slapping digital taxes on big

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Speaker 1: tech companies, leveraging big fines against tech companies. So we

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Speaker 1: are starting to see individual nations and blocks of nations

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Speaker 1: actually saying enough is enough.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, and I think that's key, right.

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Speaker 3: And one are the things that has been very clear

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Speaker 3: in Canada even before the Trump administration is how much

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Speaker 3: the American government has been opposed to this.

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Speaker 2: Right.

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Speaker 3: Obviously, we know that the tech companies don't want to

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Speaker 3: be regulated in tax This is quite clear, right, They're

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Speaker 3: very open about that. But what we've experienced in Canada

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Speaker 3: as well is, you know, we have one of these

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Speaker 3: digital services taxes. We have a news bargaining code like

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Speaker 3: what Australia has, you know, slightly different but similar sort

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Speaker 3: of a thing. You know, we brought forward regulations on

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Speaker 3: streaming platforms to make sure that more of the content

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Speaker 3: on there is Canadian content, or at least that you know,

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Speaker 3: the platforms are showing people more Canadian content to give

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Speaker 3: them that option, right and to kind of elevate it,

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Speaker 3: and to make sure that they are investing in creating

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Speaker 3: Canadian content to put on their platforms, and which each

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Speaker 3: with each of those things, we not only saw the

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Speaker 3: pushback from the tech companies themselves, but often from the

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Speaker 3: diplomats and the embassy in threatening Canada for saying that,

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Speaker 3: you know, we're discriminating against their companies and things like that,

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Speaker 3: and with the digital services tax in particular, it was

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Speaker 3: the Biden administration that actually brought us to like an

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Speaker 3: international tribunal to try to stop that from happening. Right,

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Speaker 3: So again it's you know, I don't want us to

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Speaker 3: think that it's just a Trump thing, and if Trump

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Speaker 3: wasn't there, it would be something we shouldn't have to

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Speaker 3: worry about, because I think more broadly, we see this

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Speaker 3: approach from the American government and trying to protect its

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Speaker 3: tech companies because the American government does benefit immensely from

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Speaker 3: the fact that we all depend on technologies made by

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Speaker 3: companies based in the United States.

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Speaker 1: Absolutely, I mean the digital services, which recently, when Trump

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Speaker 1: had Liberation Day, it was all about you know, cars

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Speaker 1: and steel and beef, and you know, the focus was

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Speaker 1: very much he didn't say anything about digital services because

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Speaker 1: the US exports something like seven hundred billion dollars worth

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Speaker 1: of digital services every year. That includes financial services as well,

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Speaker 1: that's a big component of it. But you know, they

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Speaker 1: are net exporters to literally every country and it still

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Speaker 1: likes of Netflix, subscriptions, aws bills, all of that adds

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Speaker 1: up to that. So there's no discussion of tariffs on that.

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Speaker 1: But yeah, Nevertheless, you know a lot of a lot

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Speaker 1: of countries are attempting to have a more equitable relationship

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Speaker 1: with US tech companies. For a small country like New Zealand,

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Speaker 1: I mean, it seems sort of any chance of having

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Speaker 1: any sort of digital news bargaining bill or a content

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Speaker 1: quota saying to Netflix you have to have a certain

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Speaker 1: number of hours of New Zealand content and Disney, it

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Speaker 1: seems like the political appetite for that has completely died

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Speaker 1: because the retribution that will come in the form of

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Speaker 1: some sort of tariff activity.

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Speaker 2: Yeah.

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Speaker 3: And you know, I think we see that in a

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Speaker 3: lot of places unfortunately, right and I think in Canada

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Speaker 3: in particular, we haven't really had a choice in that. So,

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Speaker 3: you know, we have we were targeted right from.

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Speaker 2: The beginning from the trumpet news.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, you know, and so any idea or any notion

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Speaker 3: of trying to avoid the blow black the blow was

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Speaker 3: gone right away, right. It was like, okay, we are

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Speaker 3: in the cross airs. How are we responding to this?

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Speaker 3: And so you know, we have taken a very kind

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Speaker 3: of forceful, you know, approach in order to to try

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Speaker 3: to respond to that with reciprocal tariffs, you know, with

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Speaker 3: kind of obviously recognizing that there's going to be a very.

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Speaker 2: Changed relationship with the United States.

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Speaker 3: But I think what I would say, you know, on

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Speaker 3: that broader notion, especially when you think of like a

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Speaker 3: smaller country, you know, addressing this and Canada shore is

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Speaker 3: a country of forty million people, but it's still not

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Speaker 3: a country of three hundred plus million like the United States. Right,

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Speaker 3: So there's a certain degree of capacity there that's greater

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Speaker 3: than what New Zealand might have, but it's also far

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Speaker 3: less than what the United States would have or a block.

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Speaker 2: Like the European Union for example, Right.

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Speaker 3: And so even in that case, when we think about,

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Speaker 3: you know, what digital sovereignty might look like in that context,

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Speaker 3: for me, one are the things that is key of

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Speaker 3: you know, any type of effort in order to like

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Speaker 3: build a a kind of digital sovereignty is not to

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Speaker 3: do it kind of you know, one country on its own, right,

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Speaker 3: Canada needs to build its own digital sovereignty or New

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Speaker 3: Zealand needs to build its own digital sovereignty. It's about

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Speaker 3: saying we need to work together if we are really

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Speaker 3: going to achieve this, so that we can pool our resources.

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Speaker 3: So yes, you know, Canada is going to need to

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Speaker 3: control its own infrastructures within its own borders. But we

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Speaker 3: can work with New Zealand, we can work with Australia,

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Speaker 3: we can work with Brazil, we can work with European

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Speaker 3: countries on building platforms and services and you know, the

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Speaker 3: types of things that are going to be much more

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Speaker 3: international than physical infrastructure, and that is where I see opportunity.

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Speaker 3: But a key piece of that as well, especially if

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Speaker 3: you're thinking about, like you know, international alliances and working together,

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Speaker 3: is also a recognition that maybe the model that these

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Speaker 3: Silicon Valley services and companies were built on is also

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Speaker 3: flawed in a way that we don't want to replicate. There,

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Speaker 3: you know, a very kind of financialized model technological development

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Speaker 3: that I think we can all recognize has led to

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Speaker 3: particular drawbacks in the type of technology.

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Speaker 2: That gets created through that model.

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Speaker 3: And if we're thinking about technology that ultimately serves the

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Speaker 3: public good and the broader society, yeah, obviously there's going

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Speaker 3: to be a role for private companies and stuff in

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Speaker 3: doing that. But also is that particular model that has

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Speaker 3: been the one that has been dominant for the past

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Speaker 3: three decades really the one that we want to continue

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Speaker 3: with If we're thinking about this kind of fundamental break

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Speaker 3: from what we have right now.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, you've written that cyberlibertarianism must die if there's to

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Speaker 1: be any hope of a better future for the Internet.

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Speaker 1: And I sort of looked at term up to see

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Speaker 1: what it means, and I sort of think probably twenty

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Speaker 1: years ago, I was probably a cyber libertarian, you know,

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Speaker 1: in the early days of the Internet, very ideological about

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Speaker 1: what the Internet was, this sort of thing that sure

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Speaker 1: controlled by America, came out of American ipernet and all that,

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Speaker 1: but a best effort attempt to do something good for

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Speaker 1: the world, and there was a lot of good people

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Speaker 1: involved in it, and a lot of great stuff happened.

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Speaker 1: Then we had the sort of the Web two revolution

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Speaker 1: where all of that was monetized to death and a

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Speaker 1: lot of bad stuff happened. But we do have the

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Speaker 1: likes of Mirk Andres and the venture capitalist billionaire Silicon

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Speaker 1: Valley has written a lot about this, Peter Thiel and others,

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Speaker 1: which is basically, if we want to solve the big

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Speaker 1: problems in the world, stay out of far away, don't

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Speaker 1: regulate us. Technology will solve some of these problems. Look

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Speaker 1: at Europe, they regulated themselves to death, they don't have

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Speaker 1: any unicorns. Even the Europeans are saying, we did it

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Speaker 1: the wrong way. We want to catch up with America.

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Speaker 1: So there is some something attractive to a lot of

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Speaker 1: people in that argument permissionless innovation. But what we are seeing,

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Speaker 1: and I guess what you're advocating, is we governments need

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Speaker 1: to take it a more hands on approach to steering

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Speaker 1: their own destiny because the digital economy is now so.

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Speaker 2: Big, exactly.

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Speaker 3: And you know, I think the thing I would say

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Speaker 3: about that as well is that the US government wasn't

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Speaker 3: really like totally hands off, right. They were in there

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Speaker 3: the whole time in trying to direct what was happening

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Speaker 3: with their own tech industry and also to try to

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Speaker 3: aid that.

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Speaker 2: Kind of global growth.

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Speaker 3: And I think when I think of that kind of

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Speaker 3: cyber libertarianism, part of that is this notion that, you know,

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Speaker 3: this kind of belief that has been pushed from some

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Speaker 3: in the tech industry and supporters of the tech industry,

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Speaker 3: that you know, the governments to just leave the tech

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Speaker 3: industry alone, let it do what it wants to do,

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Speaker 3: and that the government is inherently like not just a

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Speaker 3: threat to what these companies want to do but to

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Speaker 3: freedom of speech and civil liberties and all this kind

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Speaker 3: of stuff, when actually I would say that, you know,

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Speaker 3: if we live in democratic countries, that is often not

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Speaker 3: the way that we perceive our government role that it plays. Yeah,

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Speaker 3: we have plenty of criticisms of the government and what

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Speaker 3: it actually is and what it does. But if we

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Speaker 3: live in democracies, we at least, I would hope, you know,

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Speaker 3: have the ability to try to shape what government does

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Speaker 3: to make sure it acts in a way that you know,

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Speaker 3: is more beneficial to the broader society. And you know,

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Speaker 3: if we think about countries like say Canada or New Zealand,

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Speaker 3: we have histories of public broadcasting and you know, recognizing

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Speaker 3: that there is certainly a role for private companies to

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Speaker 3: be involved in many parts of the economy, but there's

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Speaker 3: also times when we need kind of non market pieces

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Speaker 3: of the economy too, and that is beneficial. You know,

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Speaker 3: It's not about always taking away, you know, the opportunity

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Speaker 3: for profit, but recognizing that sometimes you know, the private

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Speaker 3: market won't deliver certain things and we need to have

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Speaker 3: the government step in to provide some of those you know,

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Speaker 3: some of those outcomes or some of those benefits that

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Speaker 3: we want to see from communications technologies or media or

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Speaker 3: what have you. Right, And so, you know, digital sovereignty,

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Speaker 3: I think is a recognition that we have been governed

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Speaker 3: by this American model for the past several decades, that

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Speaker 3: there have been a lot of sacrifices that we have

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Speaker 3: made as a result of that.

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Speaker 2: And you know, over the.

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Speaker 3: Past few years, over the past five years or so,

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Speaker 3: I think there has been a growing recognition of many

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Speaker 3: of the harms that have come of the platforms that

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Speaker 3: were allowed to be created, the fact that they were

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Speaker 3: not effectively rained in. And so then the question is,

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Speaker 3: you know, do we allow that to continue, or as

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Speaker 3: we pivot to something else, or as we think about

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Speaker 3: pivoting to something else, how do we ensure that you know,

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Speaker 3: we do that in a better way than what was

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Speaker 3: done in the past, but also that we ensure that,

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Speaker 3: you know, whatever this kind of technological infrastructure is going

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Speaker 3: to be, that it better aligns with our expectations kind

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Speaker 3: of you know, in our societies for how these you know,

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Speaker 3: tech platforms or services or what have you should work, right.

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Speaker 1: And that white paper you co authored on digital sovereignty,

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Speaker 1: you outline a third option rather than just accepting US

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Speaker 1: technology being a technology taker, or maybe the alternative is

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Speaker 1: Chinese technology, and there are problems with that as well.

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Speaker 1: So what would that alternative path look like in practice.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, it's a great question, and I think ultimately it

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Speaker 3: could take many different forms and it will require experimentation, right,

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Speaker 3: and I think that is actually something to be excited about. Right,

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Speaker 3: we can try something new, we can try to develop

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Speaker 3: these things in a different way. Some of those efforts

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Speaker 3: might fail, but you know, we can probably you know,

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Speaker 3: get somewhere better at the end of that process. And

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Speaker 3: so if we're getting to the things that are more tangible,

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Speaker 3: I would say I think a big kind of fundamental

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Speaker 3: piece of that is a public cloud right to make

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Speaker 3: sure that cloud infrastructure, that there is an option for

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Speaker 3: that that is at least funded by government in order

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Speaker 3: to be set up, but potentially controlled by government as well,

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Speaker 3: right in the sense that you know, we have public

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Speaker 3: postal services, we have you know, public broadcasters. As I

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Speaker 3: was saying, maybe cloud infrastructure is something that should be

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Speaker 3: in the public domain and that you know, can then

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Speaker 3: be provided by government or at least is you know,

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Speaker 3: kind of serving its own needs through that, and that

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Speaker 3: we can think about whether that expands to you know,

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Speaker 3: other potential providers.

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Speaker 2: Right.

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Speaker 3: But then I think on top of that as well,

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Speaker 3: is recognizing that technological development can be something that the

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Speaker 3: public sector has a role in.

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Speaker 2: Right.

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Speaker 3: It's not something that is that is purely in the

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Speaker 3: private domain or you know, just done in these kind

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Speaker 3: of university laboratories. But there's a lot of governments now

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Speaker 3: that have you know, digital services that are you know,

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Speaker 3: oriented toward kind of having these tech workers within government

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Speaker 3: to better deliver services to the public, you know, developing

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Speaker 3: platforms and services and things like that. But what if

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Speaker 3: we thought about how that can be expanded to such

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Speaker 3: a scale where it's not just developing technology for government

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Speaker 3: in order to you know, make it easier for the

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Speaker 3: public to access government services, but to actually start to

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Speaker 3: develop platforms or services that are used by the public

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Speaker 3: but are not necessarily in the private domain, you know,

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Speaker 3: whether those are streaming services or office platforms or things

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Speaker 3: like that.

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Speaker 2: And I think it's in that region where I start to.

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Speaker 3: Say that you know, a country like New Zealand or

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Speaker 3: a country like Canada can probably not do that on

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Speaker 3: its own, but working together, you know, through some kind

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Speaker 3: of alliance to put those resources together is potentially where

439
00:23:18,960 --> 00:23:21,680
Speaker 3: we're going to see, you know, something come to.

440
00:23:21,640 --> 00:23:25,720
Speaker 1: Fruition there, and artificial intelligence could be an example of that.

441
00:23:25,760 --> 00:23:28,560
Speaker 1: New Zealand can't build its own large language models and

442
00:23:28,640 --> 00:23:32,240
Speaker 1: train them. It's too expensive, but maybe if we collaborated

443
00:23:32,359 --> 00:23:35,160
Speaker 1: with countries that might be doable. I guess a lot

444
00:23:35,160 --> 00:23:36,960
Speaker 1: of critics will go, well, that's just going to be

445
00:23:36,960 --> 00:23:41,720
Speaker 1: an infrastructure for surveillance, big brother. It's going to be

446
00:23:41,760 --> 00:23:45,200
Speaker 1: much easier for even Western countries to sort of team

447
00:23:45,280 --> 00:23:48,119
Speaker 1: up and police their people to a greater degree in

448
00:23:48,160 --> 00:23:48,960
Speaker 1: the digital world.

449
00:23:49,600 --> 00:23:52,880
Speaker 3: Yeah, Like, it is an argument that can be made, right,

450
00:23:52,880 --> 00:23:55,720
Speaker 3: But I think my counter argument would be, what is

451
00:23:55,760 --> 00:23:59,160
Speaker 3: the most effective surveillance apparatus that has been built in

452
00:23:59,320 --> 00:24:01,800
Speaker 3: the history of humanity? And I would argue it has

453
00:24:01,840 --> 00:24:07,720
Speaker 3: probably been built by the private sector, you know, exactly right, Yeah,

454
00:24:08,200 --> 00:24:12,240
Speaker 3: And you know, these are private infrastructures that have been

455
00:24:12,240 --> 00:24:14,440
Speaker 3: set up that have been sold to the public through

456
00:24:15,359 --> 00:24:18,480
Speaker 3: you know, narratives of convenience and things like that, but

457
00:24:18,760 --> 00:24:22,840
Speaker 3: actually have enabled surveillance to a degree that we could

458
00:24:22,880 --> 00:24:25,919
Speaker 3: have never imagined a few decades ago. And that is

459
00:24:25,960 --> 00:24:29,320
Speaker 3: not just something that you know, private companies take advantage

460
00:24:29,359 --> 00:24:32,679
Speaker 3: of but government's right on that infrastructure all the time.

461
00:24:32,960 --> 00:24:35,199
Speaker 3: And I used to find it really interesting when in

462
00:24:35,240 --> 00:24:38,160
Speaker 3: the United States they were having these debates about banning TikTok,

463
00:24:38,200 --> 00:24:41,720
Speaker 3: you know, something that is ongoing, of course, and often

464
00:24:41,760 --> 00:24:44,240
Speaker 3: the argument would be, but if we allow TikTok to

465
00:24:44,280 --> 00:24:47,480
Speaker 3: operate here, the Chinese government, the CCP is going to

466
00:24:47,520 --> 00:24:50,639
Speaker 3: have access to all this data on Americans. And if

467
00:24:50,680 --> 00:24:52,760
Speaker 3: you speak to someone who actually understands how any of

468
00:24:52,800 --> 00:24:55,400
Speaker 3: that works, they'll tell you the CCP does not need

469
00:24:55,440 --> 00:24:57,800
Speaker 3: TikTok to get access to all that data. They can

470
00:24:57,840 --> 00:25:00,439
Speaker 3: buy it from data brokers, they can get it from where, right,

471
00:25:01,119 --> 00:25:04,120
Speaker 3: Because you know, all of this data just flows so freely.

472
00:25:04,359 --> 00:25:06,840
Speaker 3: The United States doesn't even have a federal Privacy Act

473
00:25:07,240 --> 00:25:09,040
Speaker 3: to kind of regulate the flow of data.

474
00:25:09,119 --> 00:25:13,040
Speaker 2: Right. So, like, I recognize that there are.

475
00:25:13,200 --> 00:25:16,919
Speaker 3: Potential issues that would come with government and the public

476
00:25:16,960 --> 00:25:21,120
Speaker 3: sector having a greater role in the technology that we use, right,

477
00:25:21,160 --> 00:25:23,960
Speaker 3: there's no question about that. But I would also argue

478
00:25:24,080 --> 00:25:26,720
Speaker 3: that in democracies we tend to have checks and balances

479
00:25:26,760 --> 00:25:29,639
Speaker 3: for those sorts of things, and that there's no reason

480
00:25:29,720 --> 00:25:31,720
Speaker 3: to think that we wouldn't be able to develop checks

481
00:25:31,720 --> 00:25:35,240
Speaker 3: and balances for this kind of and infrastructure to make

482
00:25:35,240 --> 00:25:38,000
Speaker 3: sure that it is used properly. And if we can't

483
00:25:38,000 --> 00:25:40,080
Speaker 3: imagine that, then I think that we need to look

484
00:25:40,119 --> 00:25:42,600
Speaker 3: more closely at our democracies actually and to see if

485
00:25:42,600 --> 00:25:45,199
Speaker 3: they're working properly. I would say the problem then is

486
00:25:45,200 --> 00:25:47,879
Speaker 3: not the technology but our political system.

487
00:25:48,040 --> 00:25:48,240
Speaker 2: Yeah.

488
00:25:48,440 --> 00:25:52,840
Speaker 1: Yeah, I mentioned that Data Vampire series that you did.

489
00:25:53,160 --> 00:25:56,560
Speaker 1: Fascinating stuff. Experts from all around the world, from Ireland

490
00:25:56,600 --> 00:26:01,600
Speaker 1: to South America you talk to about the data center industry,

491
00:26:02,200 --> 00:26:04,000
Speaker 1: and I guess you know here in New Zealand this

492
00:26:04,119 --> 00:26:07,960
Speaker 1: is topical because we've just had Microsoft open it's Azure

493
00:26:08,359 --> 00:26:10,840
Speaker 1: Northern region. They've sunk a lot of money into that,

494
00:26:10,840 --> 00:26:14,359
Speaker 1: they're very proud of it. AWS will be not far behind,

495
00:26:14,400 --> 00:26:17,119
Speaker 1: and potentially Google as well. So we're talking about billions

496
00:26:17,119 --> 00:26:19,920
Speaker 1: of dollars, which in a recessary environment in New Zealand,

497
00:26:20,160 --> 00:26:22,440
Speaker 1: I think a lot of people are feeling grateful for

498
00:26:24,000 --> 00:26:29,240
Speaker 1: the payoff. Presumably is great a productivity. Our small businesses

499
00:26:29,280 --> 00:26:35,080
Speaker 1: can access the cloud more quickly, more cost effectively. But

500
00:26:35,920 --> 00:26:39,720
Speaker 1: you saw a lot of the downsides of data centers,

501
00:26:39,760 --> 00:26:44,640
Speaker 1: from sustainability issues to control of data, the power that

502
00:26:44,680 --> 00:26:48,760
Speaker 1: these companies have negotiating with government. How would you sort

503
00:26:48,760 --> 00:26:52,080
Speaker 1: of sum up what you've learned from all of these discussions.

504
00:26:52,440 --> 00:26:54,639
Speaker 3: Yeah, it's a good question, right, And I think I

505
00:26:54,640 --> 00:26:58,840
Speaker 3: would say that it's not about opposing data centers wholesale. Right,

506
00:26:59,080 --> 00:27:01,680
Speaker 3: We're always going to need data centers to a certain degree,

507
00:27:01,760 --> 00:27:04,160
Speaker 3: if you know, we are operating in the twenty first

508
00:27:04,160 --> 00:27:07,320
Speaker 3: century using these technologies. But I think the question is

509
00:27:07,600 --> 00:27:10,480
Speaker 3: how much computation do we actually need? How much storage

510
00:27:10,520 --> 00:27:12,800
Speaker 3: do we actually need? Do we need as much as

511
00:27:12,840 --> 00:27:15,879
Speaker 3: these cloud companies are trying to sell us on because

512
00:27:15,960 --> 00:27:18,840
Speaker 3: ultimately it's in their kind of business interest in order

513
00:27:18,880 --> 00:27:22,480
Speaker 3: to continue growing the amount of computation we collectively use. Right,

514
00:27:22,800 --> 00:27:25,080
Speaker 3: And so when we look at the push to build

515
00:27:25,119 --> 00:27:27,240
Speaker 3: so many more data centers around the world, and in

516
00:27:27,280 --> 00:27:30,919
Speaker 3: particular these hyperscale data centers that get larger and larger

517
00:27:30,920 --> 00:27:33,960
Speaker 3: and larger with every passing year, it is on the

518
00:27:34,000 --> 00:27:37,760
Speaker 3: one hand, you know the amount of material that actually

519
00:27:37,760 --> 00:27:40,040
Speaker 3: goes into one of these facilities. You think about the

520
00:27:40,440 --> 00:27:42,840
Speaker 3: thousands or tens of thousands of servers and chips and

521
00:27:42,880 --> 00:27:43,640
Speaker 3: things like that that.

522
00:27:43,560 --> 00:27:44,160
Speaker 2: Go into them.

523
00:27:44,400 --> 00:27:46,760
Speaker 3: That requires a lot of mining and production in order

524
00:27:46,800 --> 00:27:48,719
Speaker 3: to make all that stuff, right, which I think we

525
00:27:48,760 --> 00:27:52,080
Speaker 3: can easily forget. But then when the facility is actually built,

526
00:27:52,240 --> 00:27:54,480
Speaker 3: you also tend to need a lot of water and

527
00:27:54,560 --> 00:27:57,159
Speaker 3: electricity to run them and to cool them. And you know,

528
00:27:57,200 --> 00:28:00,320
Speaker 3: the actual distribution depends on the way the data center

529
00:28:00,400 --> 00:28:02,480
Speaker 3: is built, where it's built, the type of cooling that's

530
00:28:02,520 --> 00:28:05,719
Speaker 3: being used. But what I found in doing that series

531
00:28:05,840 --> 00:28:07,840
Speaker 3: is that as they build more and more of these

532
00:28:07,880 --> 00:28:10,399
Speaker 3: infrastructures in more and more parts of the world, the

533
00:28:10,600 --> 00:28:13,199
Speaker 3: number of communities that are pushing back on that is

534
00:28:13,240 --> 00:28:16,879
Speaker 3: growing because the demands that those facilities are actually making

535
00:28:16,880 --> 00:28:19,960
Speaker 3: on those communities are becoming unsustainable to a degree, or

536
00:28:20,000 --> 00:28:22,439
Speaker 3: at least getting to a point where those communities are

537
00:28:22,440 --> 00:28:24,920
Speaker 3: concerned about it. Whether it's people in Chile who are

538
00:28:24,920 --> 00:28:28,160
Speaker 3: concerned about their access to running water into their homes,

539
00:28:28,480 --> 00:28:31,560
Speaker 3: or say people in Ireland where twenty one percent of

540
00:28:31,600 --> 00:28:34,679
Speaker 3: all the electricity now goes to data centers and in

541
00:28:34,720 --> 00:28:37,920
Speaker 3: the winter, they're concerned that they might have power outages

542
00:28:37,960 --> 00:28:40,959
Speaker 3: because of the amount of electricity draw that's happening.

543
00:28:41,160 --> 00:28:43,200
Speaker 2: Yeah, and that is a real valid concern.

544
00:28:43,680 --> 00:28:46,280
Speaker 1: As we sit here, we've got drought in parts of

545
00:28:46,320 --> 00:28:49,120
Speaker 1: the country, the lake levels are low, there's concern that

546
00:28:49,240 --> 00:28:52,760
Speaker 1: over the winter, if we don't have significant rain, that

547
00:28:52,960 --> 00:28:56,320
Speaker 1: we might see brownouts and the price of electricity will spike.

548
00:28:56,520 --> 00:28:59,080
Speaker 1: Last year we saw paper mills and that have to

549
00:28:59,480 --> 00:29:02,640
Speaker 1: shut down. So that is a real valid concern if

550
00:29:03,080 --> 00:29:07,840
Speaker 1: data seeners are competing with other general industrial or residential

551
00:29:07,960 --> 00:29:09,680
Speaker 1: usage in trouble.

552
00:29:09,920 --> 00:29:11,440
Speaker 3: Yeah, And I think the one thing I would add

553
00:29:11,480 --> 00:29:13,160
Speaker 3: there as well is one thing that we're seeing in

554
00:29:13,200 --> 00:29:15,240
Speaker 3: the United States in particular, but other parts of the

555
00:29:15,240 --> 00:29:17,480
Speaker 3: world too, whether it's Ireland or other places where a

556
00:29:17,520 --> 00:29:19,600
Speaker 3: lot of these data centers is being set up, is

557
00:29:19,920 --> 00:29:23,960
Speaker 3: you know, obviously we're recognizing that climate change is an issue,

558
00:29:24,040 --> 00:29:25,880
Speaker 3: or at least, you know, I hope we still are.

559
00:29:25,960 --> 00:29:28,920
Speaker 3: What we're seeing in the United States, maybe not so much,

560
00:29:30,280 --> 00:29:35,040
Speaker 3: but the growth of the energy demand, in part because

561
00:29:35,080 --> 00:29:38,320
Speaker 3: of these massive data centers and the demands that they're

562
00:29:38,360 --> 00:29:38,800
Speaker 3: making on.

563
00:29:38,760 --> 00:29:40,840
Speaker 2: The grid, is making it so that.

564
00:29:42,440 --> 00:29:44,840
Speaker 3: In some parts of the United States and the world,

565
00:29:45,800 --> 00:29:49,200
Speaker 3: you know, fossil fuel energy generation is being kept online

566
00:29:49,560 --> 00:29:52,640
Speaker 3: longer because of the increased energy demands and because it's

567
00:29:52,640 --> 00:29:56,120
Speaker 3: increasing so much quicker than they expected. And we're seeing

568
00:29:56,120 --> 00:29:58,440
Speaker 3: in the United States as well that the investment in

569
00:29:58,480 --> 00:30:01,360
Speaker 3: new fossil fuel infrastructure is actually at levels they haven't

570
00:30:01,400 --> 00:30:04,760
Speaker 3: seen in years to keep up with this growing demand,

571
00:30:05,040 --> 00:30:07,640
Speaker 3: often from the data centers and you know what has

572
00:30:07,680 --> 00:30:10,880
Speaker 3: been built recently to power AI. You know, of course

573
00:30:10,880 --> 00:30:12,840
Speaker 3: we're seeing that in Ireland as well. You know, any

574
00:30:12,920 --> 00:30:16,040
Speaker 3: jurisdiction where there is this big growth in data centers,

575
00:30:16,720 --> 00:30:19,440
Speaker 3: we're seeing that. Yeah, they're building more renewables, but it's

576
00:30:19,520 --> 00:30:22,560
Speaker 3: not keeping up with the increase in demand, so you're

577
00:30:22,600 --> 00:30:25,720
Speaker 3: not seeing emissions fall as much as would have been

578
00:30:25,960 --> 00:30:26,920
Speaker 3: expected previously.

579
00:30:27,000 --> 00:30:29,880
Speaker 1: Right, what about modular nuclear A lot of hype around

580
00:30:29,880 --> 00:30:32,960
Speaker 1: that basically in twenty twenty four and twenty twenty five.

581
00:30:33,160 --> 00:30:36,080
Speaker 1: Have you looked into that is their scope for that

582
00:30:36,240 --> 00:30:38,240
Speaker 1: to come in and save the tech companies?

583
00:30:38,920 --> 00:30:41,080
Speaker 2: Yeah, I think hype is the keyword. Right.

584
00:30:41,680 --> 00:30:43,680
Speaker 3: There's certainly been a lot of talk about it. Certainly

585
00:30:43,680 --> 00:30:47,040
Speaker 3: we've seen Microsoft talk about, you know, reviving three Mile

586
00:30:47,160 --> 00:30:49,560
Speaker 3: Island in the United States, but also a lot of

587
00:30:49,600 --> 00:30:53,200
Speaker 3: the other tech companies talk about investing in nuclear projects.

588
00:30:54,080 --> 00:30:57,400
Speaker 3: You know, I have some personal reservations about the use

589
00:30:57,440 --> 00:31:00,880
Speaker 3: of nuclear for environmental reasons and other but even if

590
00:31:00,880 --> 00:31:03,240
Speaker 3: we were accepting that that is you know that there's

591
00:31:03,280 --> 00:31:05,440
Speaker 3: no issues with it that it's a way to address this.

592
00:31:06,360 --> 00:31:09,360
Speaker 3: Even then, if we're thinking about new investment in nuclear,

593
00:31:10,080 --> 00:31:12,840
Speaker 3: that is often like about a ten year time horizon,

594
00:31:12,920 --> 00:31:17,160
Speaker 3: if not longer. Meanwhile, they're building the data centers now,

595
00:31:17,280 --> 00:31:19,720
Speaker 3: right and they want them to come online in the

596
00:31:19,840 --> 00:31:23,880
Speaker 3: very near future. And so okay, yes, if they're investing

597
00:31:23,920 --> 00:31:26,880
Speaker 3: in nuclear and that's going to power it, and we're

598
00:31:26,920 --> 00:31:31,160
Speaker 3: assuming that's okay, that's great, But what's powering it in

599
00:31:31,200 --> 00:31:33,360
Speaker 3: that in that ten years or in that five years

600
00:31:33,440 --> 00:31:37,000
Speaker 3: until that nuclear actually comes online. The small modular modular

601
00:31:37,000 --> 00:31:39,280
Speaker 3: reactors in particular, you know, we've heard about those for

602
00:31:39,320 --> 00:31:42,240
Speaker 3: a long time, but we haven't seen them actually, you know,

603
00:31:42,320 --> 00:31:44,560
Speaker 3: be adopted at scale or anything like that. And I

604
00:31:44,560 --> 00:31:46,959
Speaker 3: think the idea that they are all of a sudden

605
00:31:47,000 --> 00:31:49,720
Speaker 3: going to start working and rolling out everywhere, I don't

606
00:31:49,840 --> 00:31:52,880
Speaker 3: entirely believe. And I think it sounds like something that

607
00:31:52,880 --> 00:31:55,520
Speaker 3: the tech industry likes to talk about to make it

608
00:31:55,560 --> 00:31:57,400
Speaker 3: so that we don't pay too much attention to the

609
00:31:57,400 --> 00:31:58,640
Speaker 3: climate impact.

610
00:31:58,240 --> 00:32:00,000
Speaker 2: Of you know, all that they're doing right now.

611
00:32:00,040 --> 00:32:02,280
Speaker 1: And it's You've been very critical of the lacks of

612
00:32:02,320 --> 00:32:07,480
Speaker 1: Bill Gates, who is big on modular and nuclear and that,

613
00:32:07,560 --> 00:32:15,480
Speaker 1: but and as arguably doing quite a lot in terms

614
00:32:15,520 --> 00:32:19,640
Speaker 1: of investing in climate mitigation stuff, you know, carbon capture

615
00:32:19,640 --> 00:32:22,960
Speaker 1: and storage, sucking carbon out of the atmosphere and turning

616
00:32:22,960 --> 00:32:29,320
Speaker 1: it into products or whatever. But you're pretty skeptical off

617
00:32:29,560 --> 00:32:31,680
Speaker 1: his intentions and the impact that he's having.

618
00:32:31,920 --> 00:32:36,520
Speaker 3: Absolutely, you know, I don't inherently have a problem with

619
00:32:36,680 --> 00:32:40,280
Speaker 3: investing in carbon capture and storage, direct or capture, all

620
00:32:40,280 --> 00:32:42,320
Speaker 3: those sorts of things. I'm sure that we will need

621
00:32:42,360 --> 00:32:45,360
Speaker 3: to use those technologies to a certain degree. My concern

622
00:32:45,520 --> 00:32:47,400
Speaker 3: is more that I feel like the Bill Gates of

623
00:32:47,400 --> 00:32:50,360
Speaker 3: the world, when they talk about addressing climate change, they

624
00:32:50,400 --> 00:32:54,440
Speaker 3: talk more about we don't need to change, you know, anything.

625
00:32:54,320 --> 00:32:56,040
Speaker 2: Serious about how society works.

626
00:32:56,240 --> 00:32:59,080
Speaker 3: We just need to switch over the energy that we're

627
00:32:59,160 --> 00:33:01,360
Speaker 3: using to electric and then kind of try to pull

628
00:33:01,400 --> 00:33:03,480
Speaker 3: down all the carbon. And I would say that I

629
00:33:03,480 --> 00:33:06,320
Speaker 3: think we see time and again that these solutions don't

630
00:33:06,400 --> 00:33:09,000
Speaker 3: tend to arrive on the timeline that you know, people

631
00:33:09,040 --> 00:33:11,440
Speaker 3: like Bill Gates promise, and then when they do arrive,

632
00:33:11,520 --> 00:33:14,640
Speaker 3: they don't actually deliver the size of the benefits that

633
00:33:14,640 --> 00:33:16,720
Speaker 3: they tend to claim. And the one other thing I

634
00:33:16,760 --> 00:33:18,680
Speaker 3: would say about Gates is I feel like we have

635
00:33:18,720 --> 00:33:21,640
Speaker 3: also seen him kind of pivot over the last few months,

636
00:33:22,400 --> 00:33:25,760
Speaker 3: you know, in response to the Trump administration, and even then,

637
00:33:25,840 --> 00:33:27,840
Speaker 3: like we've seen with a lot of these tech billionaires,

638
00:33:28,000 --> 00:33:30,800
Speaker 3: the kind of ambition that he seems to be you know,

639
00:33:30,880 --> 00:33:34,640
Speaker 3: willing to talk about has really diminished, and you know,

640
00:33:34,680 --> 00:33:38,560
Speaker 3: I think that that causes even further concern about, you know,

641
00:33:38,600 --> 00:33:41,600
Speaker 3: the type of way of addressing climate change that a

642
00:33:41,600 --> 00:33:44,080
Speaker 3: lot of these tech billionaires like to talk about that

643
00:33:44,320 --> 00:33:46,480
Speaker 3: I don't think are ultimately going to deliver, at least

644
00:33:46,520 --> 00:33:49,240
Speaker 3: on the time scales that we're really talking about if

645
00:33:49,240 --> 00:33:51,560
Speaker 3: we want to avoid two degrees of warming, which you

646
00:33:51,560 --> 00:33:53,240
Speaker 3: know we're already getting very close to.

647
00:33:53,440 --> 00:33:53,520
Speaker 2: Right.

648
00:33:53,680 --> 00:33:56,240
Speaker 1: Yeah, that's been incredible and obviously Elon Musk is the

649
00:33:56,240 --> 00:34:00,360
Speaker 1: most visible example offer that shift from ba behind the

650
00:34:00,400 --> 00:34:05,320
Speaker 1: scenes influence to public political engagement, and we're seeing it

651
00:34:05,360 --> 00:34:09,319
Speaker 1: with Zuckerberg to some extent as well. Obviously, Peter Thiel,

652
00:34:09,719 --> 00:34:13,640
Speaker 1: a New Zealander, he has a New Zealand passport, doesn't

653
00:34:13,760 --> 00:34:15,919
Speaker 1: have much else to do with New Zealand anymore since

654
00:34:15,960 --> 00:34:21,000
Speaker 1: his underground bunker slash resort proposal was knocked back in

655
00:34:21,080 --> 00:34:22,120
Speaker 1: the South Island.

656
00:34:22,360 --> 00:34:25,840
Speaker 2: See. He even sold off a lot of his remaining Yeah.

657
00:34:25,920 --> 00:34:30,040
Speaker 1: But miffed, I think with New Zealand. But that's been incredible,

658
00:34:30,040 --> 00:34:32,959
Speaker 1: hasn't it? And I wonder it's obviously hurting Elon Musk

659
00:34:33,719 --> 00:34:37,200
Speaker 1: his business interests. You know, the liberals who supported him

660
00:34:38,200 --> 00:34:41,920
Speaker 1: wanted to reduce their carbon footprints are now taking a

661
00:34:42,000 --> 00:34:44,480
Speaker 1: hit on the value off the Tesla's and people are

662
00:34:44,480 --> 00:34:48,239
Speaker 1: not buying Tesla's. Is this going to fizzle out?

663
00:34:48,239 --> 00:34:48,680
Speaker 2: Do you think?

664
00:34:48,920 --> 00:34:51,960
Speaker 1: Or as long as I guess Trump is in power

665
00:34:52,000 --> 00:34:55,920
Speaker 1: and his acolytes and his successors, it's going to embolden

666
00:34:56,320 --> 00:35:00,359
Speaker 1: the cyber libertarians to actually want to get involved more

667
00:35:00,360 --> 00:35:01,080
Speaker 1: in politics.

668
00:35:01,360 --> 00:35:03,080
Speaker 2: Oh yeah, I definitely think that's the case.

669
00:35:03,160 --> 00:35:06,640
Speaker 3: I think I think a Musk, I think that he

670
00:35:06,680 --> 00:35:10,919
Speaker 3: has so tarnished the reputation that he spent years cultivating

671
00:35:11,200 --> 00:35:13,080
Speaker 3: that it will be really difficult for him to come

672
00:35:13,120 --> 00:35:15,320
Speaker 3: back from this, especially when you look at more of

673
00:35:15,360 --> 00:35:19,319
Speaker 3: a consumer facing business like Tesla, right, and especially when

674
00:35:19,600 --> 00:35:22,799
Speaker 3: you know your primary kind of customer base is going

675
00:35:22,840 --> 00:35:26,960
Speaker 3: to be environmentally conscious liberals as it was, right and

676
00:35:27,000 --> 00:35:28,919
Speaker 3: now he is kind of turning all those people off.

677
00:35:29,120 --> 00:35:31,319
Speaker 3: He might get some conservatives to buy a cyber truck.

678
00:35:31,360 --> 00:35:33,000
Speaker 3: But that's really not going to make up for the

679
00:35:33,040 --> 00:35:36,240
Speaker 3: people that he's losing, especially when you know, the market

680
00:35:36,280 --> 00:35:38,719
Speaker 3: for electric vehicles right now is such that you have

681
00:35:38,760 --> 00:35:41,759
Speaker 3: plenty of other options. If you feel that buying an

682
00:35:41,760 --> 00:35:44,840
Speaker 3: electric vehicle is you know, a kind of moral choice

683
00:35:44,840 --> 00:35:46,360
Speaker 3: that you want to make, right, you don't need to

684
00:35:46,360 --> 00:35:47,040
Speaker 3: buy a Tesla.

685
00:35:47,320 --> 00:35:49,920
Speaker 2: You can buy you know, any number of other vehicles.

686
00:35:50,160 --> 00:35:52,480
Speaker 3: And then I think the other piece of that too

687
00:35:52,800 --> 00:35:56,200
Speaker 3: is we're also seeing that, say, for example, Starlink, which

688
00:35:56,239 --> 00:35:59,360
Speaker 3: is another one of his big businesses in SpaceX, you know,

689
00:35:59,440 --> 00:36:02,000
Speaker 3: that is more focused on government, though there is a

690
00:36:02,000 --> 00:36:05,959
Speaker 3: consumer side of it, certainly with selling starlink. But even

691
00:36:06,000 --> 00:36:08,560
Speaker 3: then we're seeing, you know, as we were talking about

692
00:36:08,560 --> 00:36:11,360
Speaker 3: with digital sovereignty, a lot of other countries around the

693
00:36:11,360 --> 00:36:14,839
Speaker 3: world saying we really can't be reliant on starlink as

694
00:36:14,840 --> 00:36:19,120
Speaker 3: an infrastructure on SpaceX. We need to accelerate efforts to

695
00:36:19,440 --> 00:36:23,440
Speaker 3: have our own kind of alternative to this, especially in Europe.

696
00:36:23,520 --> 00:36:26,200
Speaker 3: And so you know, I think that that not in

697
00:36:26,239 --> 00:36:28,319
Speaker 3: the short term, but in the medium term, is going

698
00:36:28,360 --> 00:36:31,080
Speaker 3: to hit that business as well. And then if we

699
00:36:31,120 --> 00:36:33,960
Speaker 3: look at kind of more broadly within the tech industry,

700
00:36:34,760 --> 00:36:38,319
Speaker 3: I think that We're only seeing their ambition increase, and

701
00:36:38,560 --> 00:36:40,040
Speaker 3: they are going to try to get as much as

702
00:36:40,040 --> 00:36:43,840
Speaker 3: they can from the Trump administration while it lasts for

703
00:36:43,920 --> 00:36:47,839
Speaker 3: some of those that's reduced regulation, that's reduced taxation, and

704
00:36:48,000 --> 00:36:51,480
Speaker 3: using the power of the American government to try to

705
00:36:51,520 --> 00:36:54,840
Speaker 3: bully these other countries not to do regulations and taxes

706
00:36:54,880 --> 00:36:56,920
Speaker 3: of their own right, which we're already seeing. But I

707
00:36:56,920 --> 00:36:59,160
Speaker 3: think the other piece of this that maybe isn't getting

708
00:36:59,440 --> 00:37:02,719
Speaker 3: the attention that it deserves is what is this big

709
00:37:02,760 --> 00:37:06,719
Speaker 3: push that's coming from say, Palenteer and and orill and

710
00:37:06,880 --> 00:37:09,759
Speaker 3: you know, these kind of new tech defense companies that

711
00:37:09,880 --> 00:37:13,240
Speaker 3: are trying to really change how the United States does

712
00:37:13,560 --> 00:37:17,080
Speaker 3: aerospace and military contracting to make sure that a lot

713
00:37:17,120 --> 00:37:19,759
Speaker 3: more of that money instead of going to Boeing and

714
00:37:19,840 --> 00:37:23,360
Speaker 3: Lockey and Northrop Grumman, these traditional you know, kind of

715
00:37:23,400 --> 00:37:27,560
Speaker 3: weapons arms manufacturers, aerospace companies, is instead going to these

716
00:37:27,600 --> 00:37:30,600
Speaker 3: newer startups. And they are often pointing to SpaceX and

717
00:37:30,600 --> 00:37:33,520
Speaker 3: Starlink as the examples of they went in there, they

718
00:37:33,640 --> 00:37:36,600
Speaker 3: kind of shook everything up in you know, the rocket space,

719
00:37:36,640 --> 00:37:38,719
Speaker 3: in the space you know space.

720
00:37:38,480 --> 00:37:39,879
Speaker 2: Space, if we want to put it that way.

721
00:37:40,960 --> 00:37:43,360
Speaker 3: And you know, now we are coming in to have

722
00:37:43,480 --> 00:37:48,759
Speaker 3: these AI you know, implementations for military, these new kind

723
00:37:48,800 --> 00:37:53,319
Speaker 3: of drones and other kind of military hardware, and the

724
00:37:53,440 --> 00:37:54,640
Speaker 3: US government.

725
00:37:54,320 --> 00:37:56,719
Speaker 2: Will save a lot of money by allowing.

726
00:37:56,440 --> 00:37:58,520
Speaker 3: Us to do it more efficiently if they kind of

727
00:37:58,560 --> 00:38:01,480
Speaker 3: turn their money spigot much more in our direction.

728
00:38:01,719 --> 00:38:02,720
Speaker 2: And that is what they're.

729
00:38:02,560 --> 00:38:04,960
Speaker 3: Really trying to capture there as well, and I think

730
00:38:04,960 --> 00:38:06,880
Speaker 3: we're going to start seeing a lot more of that.

731
00:38:07,080 --> 00:38:12,040
Speaker 1: Wow. So just finally, I mean, as a small nation,

732
00:38:12,960 --> 00:38:17,720
Speaker 1: limited resources, very much already the tech stack we rely

733
00:38:17,840 --> 00:38:21,719
Speaker 1: on as US centric, We've got the majority of our

734
00:38:21,760 --> 00:38:24,359
Speaker 1: infrastructure in terms of the applications we run. The whole

735
00:38:24,560 --> 00:38:27,920
Speaker 1: New Zealand government runs on Microsoft essentially a little bit

736
00:38:27,960 --> 00:38:31,360
Speaker 1: of a WUS and that to avoid sort of sleep

737
00:38:31,360 --> 00:38:34,000
Speaker 1: walking through this whole situation, we do have a right

738
00:38:34,080 --> 00:38:39,759
Speaker 1: leaning government that is very keen on low regulation, has

739
00:38:39,800 --> 00:38:43,240
Speaker 1: introduced no regulation around AI, basically wants the light touch,

740
00:38:43,680 --> 00:38:48,040
Speaker 1: proportionate and risk based approach to AI. What should we

741
00:38:48,200 --> 00:38:50,319
Speaker 1: be doing, if not this government, the next one or

742
00:38:50,719 --> 00:38:54,480
Speaker 1: policymakers people in government, what should they be thinking about

743
00:38:54,600 --> 00:38:56,680
Speaker 1: when it comes to digital sovereignty?

744
00:38:56,840 --> 00:38:59,239
Speaker 3: Yeah, it's a really great question, right, And as I

745
00:38:59,320 --> 00:39:01,440
Speaker 3: was saying I think that there's many different approaches that

746
00:39:01,480 --> 00:39:03,680
Speaker 3: they can potentially take right what is kind of the

747
00:39:03,719 --> 00:39:06,240
Speaker 3: low hanging fruit or the easier thing for New Zealand

748
00:39:06,320 --> 00:39:06,800
Speaker 3: to try.

749
00:39:06,640 --> 00:39:08,520
Speaker 2: To do to start to advance some of this.

750
00:39:08,680 --> 00:39:10,799
Speaker 3: But for me, the thing that I would say is,

751
00:39:10,840 --> 00:39:13,160
Speaker 3: I think that we're seeing a lot of countries that

752
00:39:13,320 --> 00:39:17,319
Speaker 3: are traditional allies of the United States are saying we

753
00:39:17,440 --> 00:39:19,640
Speaker 3: really can't rely on the United States in the way

754
00:39:19,680 --> 00:39:21,600
Speaker 3: that we thought right in the way that we used to.

755
00:39:22,040 --> 00:39:25,279
Speaker 3: And already in the military dimension, I think that we're

756
00:39:25,280 --> 00:39:27,680
Speaker 3: seeing that change, at least in Canada and Europe. We're

757
00:39:27,719 --> 00:39:30,839
Speaker 3: talking a lot more about what kind of military alliances

758
00:39:30,920 --> 00:39:33,319
Speaker 3: look like that are not so dependent and reliant on

759
00:39:33,360 --> 00:39:36,760
Speaker 3: the United States that can't take it as a reliable ally.

760
00:39:37,160 --> 00:39:38,879
Speaker 3: But I think that we should also be looking at

761
00:39:38,880 --> 00:39:41,600
Speaker 3: that through the lens of technology and saying, how can

762
00:39:41,680 --> 00:39:44,200
Speaker 3: we work with these countries who you know, we know

763
00:39:44,239 --> 00:39:46,520
Speaker 3: are going to be with us, you know that we're

764
00:39:46,600 --> 00:39:48,959
Speaker 3: we know we're not going to have to question whether

765
00:39:49,040 --> 00:39:52,080
Speaker 3: they are our friends, and how can we kind of

766
00:39:52,080 --> 00:39:55,680
Speaker 3: strengthen those bonds, strengthen those relationships, not just in the

767
00:39:55,719 --> 00:40:01,720
Speaker 3: military sphere, but you know, culturally, socially, politically, technologically as well,

768
00:40:02,040 --> 00:40:04,960
Speaker 3: to work much more strongly with them and on the

769
00:40:05,000 --> 00:40:07,719
Speaker 3: technological sphere, you know, to start thinking about what it

770
00:40:07,760 --> 00:40:10,480
Speaker 3: looks like to have these infrastructures, to have these platforms

771
00:40:10,480 --> 00:40:13,160
Speaker 3: and digital services that are not coming from the United

772
00:40:13,200 --> 00:40:16,200
Speaker 3: States that maybe are developed on a different model, that

773
00:40:16,239 --> 00:40:19,280
Speaker 3: are more focused on the public benefit rather than increasing

774
00:40:19,320 --> 00:40:21,759
Speaker 3: share price and all that kind of stuff. So that's

775
00:40:21,800 --> 00:40:23,919
Speaker 3: where I would really hope that we, you know, start

776
00:40:23,920 --> 00:40:27,399
Speaker 3: to think seriously about doing something differently and to really

777
00:40:27,400 --> 00:40:29,520
Speaker 3: take advantage of this Trump moment that's going to have

778
00:40:29,560 --> 00:40:32,759
Speaker 3: a lot of negative consequences to get something positive that

779
00:40:32,800 --> 00:40:33,520
Speaker 3: could come out of it.

780
00:40:33,800 --> 00:40:35,560
Speaker 2: Yeah, and this is an opportunity.

781
00:40:35,680 --> 00:40:39,400
Speaker 1: I mean, if we're going to get whacked with tariffs

782
00:40:39,880 --> 00:40:43,480
Speaker 1: on trade with the US, maybe we do more with Canada,

783
00:40:43,560 --> 00:40:46,880
Speaker 1: do more with our traditional allies like the UK and Australia,

784
00:40:46,920 --> 00:40:49,080
Speaker 1: and maybe even China. We have a free trade agreement

785
00:40:49,120 --> 00:40:52,120
Speaker 1: with China. Why not buy more take from them totally.

786
00:40:52,200 --> 00:40:55,520
Speaker 3: You know, I'm not sure I would necessarily advocate just

787
00:40:55,960 --> 00:40:59,280
Speaker 3: switching from dependence on the US the dependence on tride

788
00:40:59,320 --> 00:41:00,960
Speaker 3: sird way exactly.

789
00:41:01,160 --> 00:41:02,839
Speaker 2: Yeah, Yeah, but you know.

790
00:41:02,960 --> 00:41:05,080
Speaker 3: I think that there's a lot of opportunity there, and

791
00:41:05,440 --> 00:41:07,880
Speaker 3: coming from Canada, I often say, you know, I know

792
00:41:07,880 --> 00:41:10,359
Speaker 3: they're smaller markets and stuff, but like, you know, why

793
00:41:10,360 --> 00:41:12,960
Speaker 3: are we not dealing with them working with Australia and

794
00:41:13,040 --> 00:41:15,040
Speaker 3: New Zealand more often? You know, why are we not

795
00:41:15,160 --> 00:41:17,960
Speaker 3: looking at Europe more? Why are we not looking at

796
00:41:17,960 --> 00:41:21,520
Speaker 3: our friends in South America more? Obviously, you know, geography

797
00:41:21,600 --> 00:41:23,600
Speaker 3: is part of that because we've been so close to

798
00:41:23,640 --> 00:41:27,280
Speaker 3: the United States, we've been so kind of economically integrated

799
00:41:27,320 --> 00:41:30,160
Speaker 3: as a result of that. But I think now as

800
00:41:30,160 --> 00:41:32,239
Speaker 3: a moment to step back, not just for Canada, but

801
00:41:32,280 --> 00:41:34,399
Speaker 3: for you know, these other countries as well, and start

802
00:41:34,440 --> 00:41:37,040
Speaker 3: to say, how can we work together, you know, in

803
00:41:37,080 --> 00:41:40,319
Speaker 3: a more concerted way to have these mutual benefits and

804
00:41:40,360 --> 00:41:42,200
Speaker 3: to recognize that we all don't just have to be

805
00:41:42,239 --> 00:41:45,560
Speaker 3: so focused on the United States, but can start working

806
00:41:45,600 --> 00:41:48,680
Speaker 3: with our with each other alongside of that, and maybe

807
00:41:48,719 --> 00:41:51,200
Speaker 3: kind of decenter the role of the United States in

808
00:41:51,239 --> 00:41:53,799
Speaker 3: this kind of you know, Western alliance that that we've

809
00:41:53,800 --> 00:41:54,799
Speaker 3: traditionally relied on.

810
00:42:03,120 --> 00:42:05,879
Speaker 1: So I see a lot to like there in Paris's

811
00:42:06,160 --> 00:42:09,480
Speaker 1: third Way, which could involve New Zealand partnering with countries

812
00:42:09,560 --> 00:42:13,560
Speaker 1: other than the US and China in pooling our resources,

813
00:42:13,960 --> 00:42:18,280
Speaker 1: developing alternative platforms and services that serve the public good

814
00:42:18,440 --> 00:42:21,319
Speaker 1: rather than just private profit. We can and should be

815
00:42:21,360 --> 00:42:25,200
Speaker 1: pursuing this sort of thing with Australia, the UK, the EU, Canada,

816
00:42:25,280 --> 00:42:28,359
Speaker 1: Japan and other nations. We sort of have to if

817
00:42:28,400 --> 00:42:31,400
Speaker 1: we accept the fact that the US may no longer

818
00:42:31,520 --> 00:42:36,200
Speaker 1: be the guaranteed or reliable partner for digital infrastructure that

819
00:42:36,280 --> 00:42:39,440
Speaker 1: we always expected it to be. So interesting stuff there.

820
00:42:39,480 --> 00:42:42,600
Speaker 1: Thanks to Paris for a thought provoking conversation. I really

821
00:42:42,640 --> 00:42:45,480
Speaker 1: want to know what you think. Email me on Peter

822
00:42:45,560 --> 00:42:48,319
Speaker 1: at Peter Griffin dot co dot in zad or leave

823
00:42:48,360 --> 00:42:51,840
Speaker 1: a comment on the podcast post I put up on LinkedIn.

824
00:42:52,280 --> 00:42:54,960
Speaker 1: Show notes are in the podcast section at Business deesk

825
00:42:55,040 --> 00:42:57,239
Speaker 1: dot co dot in za and don't forget you can

826
00:42:57,280 --> 00:43:01,840
Speaker 1: stream the podcast at iHeartRadio or your favorite podcast platform

827
00:43:01,840 --> 00:43:05,000
Speaker 1: of choice. Thanks for tuning in. Next week, we catch

828
00:43:05,080 --> 00:43:08,759
Speaker 1: up with Reuben Davidson, Labour's a new spokesperson on all

829
00:43:08,800 --> 00:43:13,560
Speaker 1: things science, innovation and technology, to see if his political

830
00:43:13,560 --> 00:43:17,440
Speaker 1: party has anything promising to offer policy wise as an

831
00:43:17,440 --> 00:43:21,040
Speaker 1: alternative to what the coalition government is pushing through at

832
00:43:21,080 --> 00:43:23,920
Speaker 1: the moment. That's next Thursday, and i'll catch you then