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Speaker 1: So Benjamin Doyle has been at Parliament explaining themselves over

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Speaker 1: the bussy question. The Instagram post you will know all

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Speaker 1: about this. Here's what they had to say.

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Speaker 2: The words I used in my private account historically were

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Speaker 2: not sexual words. They were nicknames and references to myself.

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Speaker 2: I recognize that a lot of people won't know the

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Speaker 2: word bussy and so they'll be hearing about it for

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Speaker 2: the first time now, and that some people don't use

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Speaker 2: or like it or have a particular definition. Every time

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Speaker 2: I have ever used that term, it has been a

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Speaker 2: reference to me and my nicknames. It's a nickname or

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Speaker 2: like a drag persona, it's a caricature of myself.

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Speaker 1: So that's the reasoning the rationale. Take from that what

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Speaker 1: you will, and I'm assuming both sides of this will

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Speaker 1: take from that what they will. Ten minutes after four

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Speaker 1: now we're going to a story with a headline that

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Speaker 1: probably doesn't get much worse. I don't think this is

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Speaker 1: a one news story from last night. National Mpmush Campbell

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Speaker 1: is part of a secretive religious group that's being investigated

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Speaker 1: for alleged child abuse here and abroad. The group has

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Speaker 1: no official name, but has been called the Two by

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Speaker 1: Twos and the Truth. Hamish told one News in this

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Speaker 1: story that he's got no knowledge of any abuse.

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Speaker 2: Look, I think kind of for any any accusations I've had,

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Speaker 2: I think the best place for that is the police.

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Speaker 1: Peter Linen was in the story. He's massive university religious

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Speaker 1: expert with us this afternoon.

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Speaker 3: Hi, Peter, how are you going round?

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Speaker 1: You good? Thank you? How did you you obviously saw

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Speaker 1: that piece last night. How did you think? Because to

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Speaker 1: put someone's name in there, and you know, in the

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Speaker 1: headline with child abuse, it's pretty pretty serious stuff. I mean,

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Speaker 1: are you confident that there's enough information around this to

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Speaker 1: be doing that.

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Speaker 3: I think there's probably a misunderstanding in the way that

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Speaker 3: the one story seemed to stack up. Yes, Hamish Campbell

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Speaker 3: is a member. It would appear of the two X

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Speaker 3: twos or whatever we will call them. Every book I've

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Speaker 3: got on the subject, I've got seven books named them

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Speaker 3: with a different name. So it's a bit hard to

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Speaker 3: be sure. But you see, the abuse is by specific people,

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Speaker 3: which is alleged against them. In the church, they had

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Speaker 3: these two They had these missionaries who go out in

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Speaker 3: pairs and they're usually almost always single males, one older

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Speaker 3: and one younger, and there have been allegations that some

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Speaker 3: of the missionaries have been involved in abuse. And the

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Speaker 3: only aspect that is concerning for people in the group

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Speaker 3: is this that because it's so secretive, it's sort of

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Speaker 3: created and because the two by two preachers, the go

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Speaker 3: preachers are held in such respect that probably an abused

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Speaker 3: person's story would not be believed. And I think that's

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Speaker 3: what's been happening. That's certainly true of the FBI stories.

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Speaker 1: Right, So it's not I mean, to your knowledge, there's

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Speaker 1: nothing you would just ask questions about this particular group

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Speaker 1: rather than about this national MP themselves. So you're talking

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Speaker 1: about the group itself. Do we know? So are they

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Speaker 1: definitely being investigated by a police? Are they here in

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Speaker 1: New Zealand?

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Speaker 3: Specific there have been specific complaints against specific people. Some

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Speaker 3: of them are historic. I believe at least one of

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Speaker 3: them is dead. So it's going back. The group's been

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Speaker 3: around in New Zealand, remember, for more than one hundred years,

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Speaker 3: and people have because it's now become an atmosphere after

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Speaker 3: the Royal Commission where you can talk about sex abuse

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Speaker 3: for the first time, they come forward with their stories

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Speaker 3: and that's been just what has made the police very interested.

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Speaker 3: There are other issues, of course with the group. I

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Speaker 3: mean I've met various survivors of the group. Some come

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Speaker 3: out pretty well, some came out spectacularly well. There was

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Speaker 3: some very well known names involved with the group at times,

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Speaker 3: but some have struggled with suicide, with other traumas in

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Speaker 3: their life and have just had their lives ended up

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Speaker 3: a wreck. It's very hard to escape from a closed

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Speaker 3: group like this.

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Speaker 1: Interesting, Peter, I appreciate your time. Thanks very much for

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Speaker 1: coming on the program. Peter Lineham, Who's Massy University Religious Experts.

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