1 00:00:05,360 --> 00:00:05,760 Speaker 1: Kiota. 2 00:00:05,840 --> 00:00:08,960 Speaker 2: I'm Chelsea Daniels and this is the Front Page, a 3 00:00:09,039 --> 00:00:16,319 Speaker 2: daily podcast presented by the New Zealand Herald. The Cook 4 00:00:16,440 --> 00:00:20,600 Speaker 2: Island's flag has flown from more than one hundred oil 5 00:00:20,720 --> 00:00:26,520 Speaker 2: tankers implicated in illicitly trading Russian and Iranian oil. A 6 00:00:26,640 --> 00:00:32,200 Speaker 2: special Herald investigation has revealed its sparked alarm from foreign governments, 7 00:00:32,560 --> 00:00:37,000 Speaker 2: with New Zealand diplomats fielding concerns from Helsinki and London. 8 00:00:37,600 --> 00:00:41,560 Speaker 2: Our Foreign Minister Winston Peters has labeled the issue alarming 9 00:00:41,720 --> 00:00:46,959 Speaker 2: and infuriating. So what is the link between the Baltic 10 00:00:47,040 --> 00:00:50,760 Speaker 2: Sea and the Pacific and how has this been allowed 11 00:00:50,800 --> 00:00:51,360 Speaker 2: to happen? 12 00:00:52,000 --> 00:00:52,280 Speaker 3: Today? 13 00:00:52,320 --> 00:00:56,120 Speaker 2: On the Front Page ends at Herald Business Investigations reporter 14 00:00:56,280 --> 00:00:59,080 Speaker 2: Matt Nippett is with us to explain what it all 15 00:00:59,120 --> 00:01:00,639 Speaker 2: means and why. 16 00:01:00,560 --> 00:01:03,480 Speaker 3: We should care. 17 00:01:05,160 --> 00:01:09,720 Speaker 2: First off, Matt, what's the significance of flag flying on 18 00:01:09,840 --> 00:01:12,319 Speaker 2: a ship? So, you know, I assume that that's just 19 00:01:12,360 --> 00:01:14,760 Speaker 2: a requirement of the high seas. Do you have to 20 00:01:14,800 --> 00:01:16,760 Speaker 2: have a flag flying on your ship somewhere? 21 00:01:16,840 --> 00:01:21,160 Speaker 1: I guess the simple way to explain it, As you know, 22 00:01:21,280 --> 00:01:24,840 Speaker 1: cars need license plates and ships need flags. Of course, 23 00:01:24,880 --> 00:01:26,760 Speaker 1: you know when you're driving your car, you don't, particularly 24 00:01:26,760 --> 00:01:29,720 Speaker 1: in New Zealand, you don't tend to cross borders unless 25 00:01:29,720 --> 00:01:32,720 Speaker 1: you've gone a long way out into the tessmen see whoever, 26 00:01:32,760 --> 00:01:35,800 Speaker 1: ships by the very nature sort of international vessels. I'll 27 00:01:35,800 --> 00:01:38,000 Speaker 1: start off in one country in one port, and you 28 00:01:38,240 --> 00:01:40,600 Speaker 1: travel through the waters of many others and probably end 29 00:01:40,680 --> 00:01:42,959 Speaker 1: up somewhere else. So it doesn't necessarily have to be 30 00:01:43,000 --> 00:01:47,640 Speaker 1: tied to either end. Also, there is this issue of 31 00:01:47,640 --> 00:01:50,760 Speaker 1: being an international waters you know, when whose law replies 32 00:01:50,800 --> 00:01:53,600 Speaker 1: in there and turns out if you're on board a 33 00:01:53,640 --> 00:01:57,200 Speaker 1: ship and intenationia waters, the flag states laws apply. Flag 34 00:01:57,200 --> 00:01:59,600 Speaker 1: states also have a crucial role in determining like employment 35 00:01:59,600 --> 00:02:02,919 Speaker 1: conditions for stuff those of the crew aboard the vessel, 36 00:02:02,960 --> 00:02:05,920 Speaker 1: and also maintaining safety standards. So it's a bit of 37 00:02:05,920 --> 00:02:08,639 Speaker 1: a like a license plate and a waft right. 38 00:02:08,919 --> 00:02:10,920 Speaker 2: And so that's why you see, you know, sometimes if 39 00:02:10,960 --> 00:02:13,720 Speaker 2: something happens on a cruise ship, they we always see 40 00:02:13,880 --> 00:02:17,200 Speaker 2: them talking about what flag does it fly under or something, 41 00:02:17,200 --> 00:02:20,239 Speaker 2: because that constituents what laws are going to be. 42 00:02:20,440 --> 00:02:24,400 Speaker 1: Yeah, that's right, And so there's a whole a lot 43 00:02:24,440 --> 00:02:29,040 Speaker 1: of different countries offer sort of flags of flag services. 44 00:02:29,200 --> 00:02:31,040 Speaker 1: I mean, the biggest one in the world is Panama. 45 00:02:31,080 --> 00:02:33,840 Speaker 1: You know, Panamas doesn't own a lot of ships. Obviously 46 00:02:33,840 --> 00:02:35,359 Speaker 1: they've got the Panama can now and lots of ships 47 00:02:35,880 --> 00:02:40,200 Speaker 1: go through, but also outfits countries like the Marshall Island 48 00:02:40,240 --> 00:02:44,160 Speaker 1: and Palau. They sort of run some bustling little ship 49 00:02:44,200 --> 00:02:48,240 Speaker 1: registration services and have built like legal frameworks around that. 50 00:02:48,880 --> 00:02:51,680 Speaker 2: What first alerted you to the fact that there were 51 00:02:51,720 --> 00:02:55,919 Speaker 2: Cook Islands flags hanging around the Baltics. 52 00:02:55,840 --> 00:02:58,000 Speaker 1: Well, I'd sort of picked up i think on social media. 53 00:02:58,040 --> 00:03:01,960 Speaker 1: They've been the odd mention of you know, certain cock 54 00:03:02,000 --> 00:03:03,919 Speaker 1: Island's flag vessels had been sanctioned. You know, it was 55 00:03:04,360 --> 00:03:06,239 Speaker 1: one at a time, but it was That was a 56 00:03:06,320 --> 00:03:09,280 Speaker 1: case of the Eagles on Christmas Day last year, which 57 00:03:09,320 --> 00:03:12,440 Speaker 1: was an oil tanker that left left Russia in the 58 00:03:12,480 --> 00:03:16,160 Speaker 1: Baltic and was sailing down past Finland and then it 59 00:03:16,240 --> 00:03:19,960 Speaker 1: dragged its anchor and cut a very important power cable 60 00:03:19,960 --> 00:03:23,160 Speaker 1: between Estonia and Finland. The vessel was arrested and its 61 00:03:23,240 --> 00:03:27,519 Speaker 1: crew were later prosecuted for sabotage. That really raised my 62 00:03:27,560 --> 00:03:30,000 Speaker 1: eyebrows because this is where these stories seen to move 63 00:03:30,120 --> 00:03:34,880 Speaker 1: from the very sort of niche shipping industry news pages 64 00:03:35,000 --> 00:03:37,320 Speaker 1: and there had been an alarming series of reports about 65 00:03:37,320 --> 00:03:39,520 Speaker 1: the size of the Cock Island fleet by this point, 66 00:03:39,520 --> 00:03:41,120 Speaker 1: but I hadn't paid that much attention to it. But 67 00:03:41,160 --> 00:03:43,920 Speaker 1: the eglest became like an international diplomatic incident, and I 68 00:03:43,960 --> 00:03:47,640 Speaker 1: think my further reporting revealed that, you know, the authorities 69 00:03:47,640 --> 00:03:51,119 Speaker 1: in Helsinki were calling up people in Wenington saying, why 70 00:03:51,240 --> 00:03:53,839 Speaker 1: is the realm of New Zealand involved in this sort 71 00:03:53,840 --> 00:03:56,240 Speaker 1: of activity? And I think it was news to the beehive. 72 00:03:56,760 --> 00:04:00,680 Speaker 2: If the Eagles situation hadn't happened, would we have even 73 00:04:00,720 --> 00:04:03,400 Speaker 2: known about this or would they have continued with their 74 00:04:04,080 --> 00:04:07,640 Speaker 2: strong upwards trajectory of expanding its fleet. 75 00:04:07,600 --> 00:04:10,160 Speaker 1: Well By the time the Eagles incident happened that the 76 00:04:10,160 --> 00:04:14,920 Speaker 1: Cooks had been under serious pressure diplomatically. I think a 77 00:04:14,960 --> 00:04:17,280 Speaker 1: lot of this has been happening behind closed doors. It 78 00:04:17,320 --> 00:04:20,400 Speaker 1: has been raised by Wellington repeatedly with the Cocks and 79 00:04:20,520 --> 00:04:23,880 Speaker 1: the Cock Island shadow fleet operations to Peter have peaked 80 00:04:23,880 --> 00:04:25,920 Speaker 1: in sort of mid twenty twenty four, so it was 81 00:04:26,279 --> 00:04:29,680 Speaker 1: declining by this point. Would it have come what I 82 00:04:29,680 --> 00:04:32,279 Speaker 1: have looked into it, I probably wouldn't have. You know, 83 00:04:32,320 --> 00:04:35,520 Speaker 1: it was the trigger for me to start digging deeper. 84 00:04:35,880 --> 00:04:39,880 Speaker 1: But as I mentioned, it had been noticed by those 85 00:04:39,920 --> 00:04:42,479 Speaker 1: and sort of interesting industries and fields, but it wasn't 86 00:04:42,520 --> 00:04:43,720 Speaker 1: quite in the public consciousness. 87 00:04:43,880 --> 00:04:46,039 Speaker 2: So when we talk about a shadow fleet or how 88 00:04:46,080 --> 00:04:49,279 Speaker 2: they would have been able to use these flags. If 89 00:04:49,320 --> 00:04:52,480 Speaker 2: I had a ship and I wanted to run oil 90 00:04:52,560 --> 00:04:56,680 Speaker 2: from Russia to through the Baltic say and do I 91 00:04:56,760 --> 00:04:59,960 Speaker 2: look at is there like a price list of flags 92 00:05:00,080 --> 00:05:01,839 Speaker 2: that I can look up and say, Oh, the cook 93 00:05:01,880 --> 00:05:03,800 Speaker 2: Islands costs X amount. 94 00:05:03,600 --> 00:05:05,680 Speaker 3: I'll just give them that money. I can fly their flag. 95 00:05:05,880 --> 00:05:08,680 Speaker 1: Well, there is no public price list. 96 00:05:10,000 --> 00:05:12,919 Speaker 3: Yeah, I'm searching around on the dark through my comne. 97 00:05:13,560 --> 00:05:15,680 Speaker 1: The way the shadow it works, you know, you just 98 00:05:15,680 --> 00:05:17,760 Speaker 1: to talk about if you have a ship, well that's 99 00:05:17,800 --> 00:05:20,560 Speaker 1: your problem. What you'd want to do is decide you 100 00:05:20,640 --> 00:05:23,040 Speaker 1: wanted to ship oil from Russia, and you'd buy the 101 00:05:23,080 --> 00:05:25,520 Speaker 1: oldest ship you could find because it'd be the cheapest, 102 00:05:26,080 --> 00:05:28,760 Speaker 1: and then you'd find a place to register it. Sorry 103 00:05:28,760 --> 00:05:31,120 Speaker 1: to flag it cheaply. I understand the Cooks have been 104 00:05:31,600 --> 00:05:33,599 Speaker 1: they're sort of more at the budget end of the 105 00:05:34,040 --> 00:05:39,000 Speaker 1: flagging of the flag authorities. So yeah, you get it registered, 106 00:05:39,200 --> 00:05:41,039 Speaker 1: you'd try to find an insurer that would cover you, 107 00:05:41,360 --> 00:05:43,239 Speaker 1: and then I guess you'd hope you didn't get caught, 108 00:05:44,200 --> 00:05:47,520 Speaker 1: because you know, since the invasion of Ukraine, you know, 109 00:05:47,640 --> 00:05:50,480 Speaker 1: exports Russian oil have been if not outright banned, you know, 110 00:05:50,720 --> 00:05:52,839 Speaker 1: very heavily monitor I think there was a price cap 111 00:05:52,880 --> 00:05:56,040 Speaker 1: at some point, but I mean I have read some 112 00:05:57,400 --> 00:06:00,000 Speaker 1: international reports on this that the profits to be made 113 00:06:00,000 --> 00:06:02,120 Speaker 1: aid from this trade as such that you know, your 114 00:06:02,160 --> 00:06:04,080 Speaker 1: old oil tanker and it needs to make two or 115 00:06:04,080 --> 00:06:06,200 Speaker 1: three return trips and you've paid for the boat. 116 00:06:06,800 --> 00:06:10,080 Speaker 3: Oh wow, how much does a boat go for? 117 00:06:10,200 --> 00:06:12,839 Speaker 2: If I'm looking at it, I'm assuming that these boats 118 00:06:12,880 --> 00:06:14,400 Speaker 2: are like what decades old? 119 00:06:14,520 --> 00:06:16,279 Speaker 1: Yeah, we are. The most of the Shadow Fleet are 120 00:06:16,320 --> 00:06:18,360 Speaker 1: so obvious and towards the end of their lives sort 121 00:06:18,360 --> 00:06:20,920 Speaker 1: of several decades old. I mean, you know you'd be 122 00:06:20,960 --> 00:06:24,400 Speaker 1: looking at you know, fifty million enough, depending on how 123 00:06:24,480 --> 00:06:32,120 Speaker 1: see whether you wanted it, I guess. 124 00:06:31,640 --> 00:06:35,160 Speaker 2: In terms of these flags, so you've got your ship, 125 00:06:35,400 --> 00:06:38,640 Speaker 2: you've got your flag from the cooks, you've registered, and 126 00:06:38,680 --> 00:06:42,360 Speaker 2: you've got the insurance. In terms of doing all of that, 127 00:06:42,880 --> 00:06:47,479 Speaker 2: you're doing something presumably illegal anyway. So transporting Russian oil 128 00:06:47,800 --> 00:06:51,719 Speaker 2: for instance, that has heavy sanctions on it, why bother 129 00:06:51,920 --> 00:06:54,920 Speaker 2: to go the full mile and get yourself a flag. 130 00:06:55,320 --> 00:06:57,279 Speaker 1: Well, you have to have a flag to be insured, 131 00:06:57,600 --> 00:07:01,360 Speaker 1: and often ports will not let you into their waters 132 00:07:01,600 --> 00:07:03,320 Speaker 1: if you're not insured, because you know what happens if 133 00:07:03,320 --> 00:07:06,400 Speaker 1: you're ancient leaking oil tanker. You know, our Sunday springs 134 00:07:06,400 --> 00:07:09,479 Speaker 1: a leak. Someone's got to cover that and the worre 135 00:07:09,640 --> 00:07:14,560 Speaker 1: some concerns raised by m FAT to the Cooks that 136 00:07:14,680 --> 00:07:17,120 Speaker 1: are in the case of where insurance is avoided, it's 137 00:07:17,160 --> 00:07:20,280 Speaker 1: possible a claim can be taken against the flag state, 138 00:07:20,840 --> 00:07:22,800 Speaker 1: which you can imagine for the cook Olins, whether it's 139 00:07:22,840 --> 00:07:24,760 Speaker 1: you know, annual government budget of one hundred and fifty 140 00:07:24,800 --> 00:07:26,960 Speaker 1: million dollars, if you start looking at something like an 141 00:07:27,000 --> 00:07:32,040 Speaker 1: Exon Valdez type multi billion dollar oil spill would be existential, 142 00:07:32,120 --> 00:07:35,280 Speaker 1: It'll be a problem and inevitably would also be a 143 00:07:35,280 --> 00:07:36,200 Speaker 1: problem for New Zealand. 144 00:07:36,360 --> 00:07:39,360 Speaker 2: So the people and the cooks who are selling these 145 00:07:39,480 --> 00:07:41,880 Speaker 2: rights are taking a massive gamble here. 146 00:07:41,920 --> 00:07:45,320 Speaker 1: Then, ah, well, I guess you know there are they 147 00:07:46,480 --> 00:07:49,680 Speaker 1: They rely on their clientele to follow the rules and 148 00:07:49,720 --> 00:07:53,600 Speaker 1: ensure they're ensured, But to what extent do they conduct 149 00:07:53,680 --> 00:07:56,920 Speaker 1: due diligence that these people are actually undertaking these steps 150 00:07:56,920 --> 00:08:00,280 Speaker 1: and what sort of risk profile do they have is 151 00:08:00,320 --> 00:08:02,880 Speaker 1: really an open question and having a look at their 152 00:08:02,880 --> 00:08:06,720 Speaker 1: activities over the last two or three years, yeah, they 153 00:08:06,720 --> 00:08:08,160 Speaker 1: really need to answer those. 154 00:08:08,680 --> 00:08:10,480 Speaker 3: Well, let's have a look at the numbers. 155 00:08:10,600 --> 00:08:13,640 Speaker 2: How many ships have been part of the Cook Islands 156 00:08:13,680 --> 00:08:16,000 Speaker 2: flagged fleet in recent years. 157 00:08:16,320 --> 00:08:20,600 Speaker 1: Well, I was did considerable piece of analysis money looking 158 00:08:20,600 --> 00:08:23,920 Speaker 1: at their tanker fleet. So before the invasion of Ukraine 159 00:08:23,920 --> 00:08:26,120 Speaker 1: they sort of had about sexty vessels. Most of them 160 00:08:26,120 --> 00:08:31,440 Speaker 1: were small, sort of sort of more coastal trading. However, 161 00:08:31,520 --> 00:08:34,800 Speaker 1: from that period they signed up over one hundred new vessels. 162 00:08:34,800 --> 00:08:37,400 Speaker 1: Most of them are really really large oil tankers. And 163 00:08:37,480 --> 00:08:38,960 Speaker 1: you know, there's a graph of my story and you 164 00:08:38,960 --> 00:08:41,120 Speaker 1: can see it. It trebles in size in two years 165 00:08:41,559 --> 00:08:45,880 Speaker 1: and then rapidly declines as the ships get repeatedly sectioned. 166 00:08:46,840 --> 00:08:50,199 Speaker 1: So you know, when you're talking about you know, one hundred, 167 00:08:50,240 --> 00:08:53,679 Speaker 1: one hundred large oil tankers trading continguers they for several years, 168 00:08:53,800 --> 00:08:54,679 Speaker 1: that's a lot of oil. 169 00:08:55,559 --> 00:08:58,560 Speaker 3: And also tell me the flags popped up in other 170 00:08:58,640 --> 00:09:00,880 Speaker 3: situations as well recently. 171 00:09:00,960 --> 00:09:02,760 Speaker 1: Yes, so the you know, the key part of mine 172 00:09:02,760 --> 00:09:06,440 Speaker 1: elsis on sort of recent activities with Iranian and Russian 173 00:09:06,920 --> 00:09:09,600 Speaker 1: shadow fleets. But you know, there have been dubious vessels 174 00:09:09,720 --> 00:09:12,600 Speaker 1: registered to the Cooks, you know, over the last decade 175 00:09:12,679 --> 00:09:15,360 Speaker 1: and a half. In fact, during the entire period of 176 00:09:15,400 --> 00:09:19,400 Speaker 1: its operation, when I found a Russian oligarchs super yacht 177 00:09:19,440 --> 00:09:21,640 Speaker 1: was seized, you know, in one of the first waves 178 00:09:21,640 --> 00:09:23,880 Speaker 1: of sanctions that came out of the US because its 179 00:09:23,880 --> 00:09:27,680 Speaker 1: owner was closely associated with Fedomir Putin. They also found 180 00:09:27,720 --> 00:09:31,800 Speaker 1: a Swedish six trafficker who was in a Philippines prison 181 00:09:32,480 --> 00:09:36,000 Speaker 1: taking well he wasn't taking position, his British Virgin Arms 182 00:09:36,040 --> 00:09:39,400 Speaker 1: company was taking position of a million dollar yacht, you know, 183 00:09:39,440 --> 00:09:41,840 Speaker 1: also with the Cock Island's flag. And finally I also 184 00:09:41,880 --> 00:09:46,520 Speaker 1: found the Cooks were offering both flagging and licenses to 185 00:09:46,559 --> 00:09:50,960 Speaker 1: carry guns and ammunition to a Russian mercenary outfit that 186 00:09:51,360 --> 00:09:54,120 Speaker 1: you know later sort of split and became the Wagner 187 00:09:54,160 --> 00:09:56,440 Speaker 1: Group in terms of. 188 00:09:56,360 --> 00:09:58,480 Speaker 3: So these are rules highly. 189 00:09:59,720 --> 00:10:03,560 Speaker 2: Ran situations for the Cook Islands flag to be involved with. 190 00:10:04,440 --> 00:10:06,400 Speaker 3: How has this been made to happen? 191 00:10:06,480 --> 00:10:09,200 Speaker 2: So I understand that the Cook Islands military, you know, 192 00:10:09,280 --> 00:10:16,000 Speaker 2: the shipping fleet, the company that looks after that is privatized. 193 00:10:16,480 --> 00:10:20,679 Speaker 1: Yeah, so the Cooks had been running flagging services started 194 00:10:20,679 --> 00:10:22,959 Speaker 1: in the nineties. They weren't doing very well. It was 195 00:10:23,000 --> 00:10:25,960 Speaker 1: costing more money to run than they were getting into 196 00:10:26,040 --> 00:10:30,880 Speaker 1: a couple of lawyers and the Cooks, both former solicitor 197 00:10:30,960 --> 00:10:34,440 Speaker 1: generals that help write the laws that governess, they made 198 00:10:34,440 --> 00:10:37,000 Speaker 1: a bed to set up a private company and run 199 00:10:37,000 --> 00:10:40,120 Speaker 1: it and try to drive traffic that way. Yeah, and 200 00:10:41,679 --> 00:10:45,640 Speaker 1: that sort of close relationship between government and this private 201 00:10:45,720 --> 00:10:48,880 Speaker 1: entity have has continued. I mean, one of the founding 202 00:10:48,920 --> 00:10:52,640 Speaker 1: directors went back into government after founding the Shipping Register 203 00:10:52,640 --> 00:10:55,840 Speaker 1: and became Foreign Secretary. His son has taken over his 204 00:10:55,920 --> 00:10:58,840 Speaker 1: father's position in that company and he's also Foreign Secretary 205 00:10:59,320 --> 00:11:05,720 Speaker 1: of Maritime Cooklands. While also, yeah, it's a very cozy 206 00:11:05,760 --> 00:11:08,360 Speaker 1: relationship that would really raise eyebrows in New Zealand. But 207 00:11:09,040 --> 00:11:11,640 Speaker 1: I am told that, you know, things happen in the 208 00:11:11,760 --> 00:11:14,000 Speaker 1: in the Cook Islands that wouldn't happen in New Zealand. 209 00:11:14,120 --> 00:11:16,240 Speaker 2: And in terms of the money, I understand it's quite 210 00:11:16,280 --> 00:11:19,640 Speaker 2: difficult to track down what kind of figures have we 211 00:11:19,840 --> 00:11:23,240 Speaker 2: seen from potentially how much this company is making from 212 00:11:23,800 --> 00:11:24,920 Speaker 2: renting out its flag. 213 00:11:25,600 --> 00:11:27,040 Speaker 1: Well, one thing that is quite clear is the Cook 214 00:11:27,080 --> 00:11:29,600 Speaker 1: Island's government isn't getting very much out of this. I 215 00:11:29,600 --> 00:11:32,560 Speaker 1: think initially when it was set up in two thousand, 216 00:11:32,600 --> 00:11:35,920 Speaker 1: they were going to sort of split revenues sort of equally. However, 217 00:11:35,920 --> 00:11:39,040 Speaker 1: Maritime Cooklans found it pretty heavy going and there was 218 00:11:39,080 --> 00:11:41,680 Speaker 1: an agreement struck that sees just an annual fee paid 219 00:11:41,720 --> 00:11:44,320 Speaker 1: to the government and that typically has been around you know, 220 00:11:44,400 --> 00:11:47,840 Speaker 1: forty fifty thousand dollars, so not a lot in terms 221 00:11:47,840 --> 00:11:50,160 Speaker 1: of how much the Maritime Cook Garlands is making. You know, 222 00:11:50,200 --> 00:11:52,600 Speaker 1: they're a private company registered in the Cooks that I've 223 00:11:52,600 --> 00:11:56,160 Speaker 1: got no obligation to file reports, so we don't know 224 00:11:56,200 --> 00:11:58,679 Speaker 1: for sure, but i'd estimate, you know, their typical annual 225 00:11:58,720 --> 00:12:02,000 Speaker 1: revenues will be in the low million. And working out 226 00:12:02,000 --> 00:12:04,120 Speaker 1: how much was made from this recent surgeon so the 227 00:12:04,200 --> 00:12:08,120 Speaker 1: Jubius oil tanker registration, well that's a very interesting question, 228 00:12:08,200 --> 00:12:12,760 Speaker 1: but I imagine it's you know, again probably in the 229 00:12:12,800 --> 00:12:15,679 Speaker 1: low millions. So it's not a huge business story, but 230 00:12:15,800 --> 00:12:18,120 Speaker 1: you know, pretty substantial sums for place. 231 00:12:18,040 --> 00:12:21,880 Speaker 2: Like the Cooks well and especially when you've got diplomats 232 00:12:21,920 --> 00:12:25,640 Speaker 2: in Helsinki calling diplomats in Wellington being. 233 00:12:25,480 --> 00:12:28,400 Speaker 3: Like, what's this, what's this? What's going on here? 234 00:12:28,480 --> 00:12:32,840 Speaker 2: And then the embarrassment of us not having any answers. 235 00:12:33,120 --> 00:12:36,120 Speaker 1: Well, yes, we I have seen the oas and you 236 00:12:36,160 --> 00:12:38,080 Speaker 1: know there there were still in questions asked to the 237 00:12:38,080 --> 00:12:40,840 Speaker 1: Cooks saying what is going on here? And seems to 238 00:12:40,880 --> 00:12:44,760 Speaker 1: be that there was a distinct reluctance to discuss maritime 239 00:12:44,840 --> 00:12:49,360 Speaker 1: cooklands by the cook Ilans government. Yeah, huge reputational risks. 240 00:12:49,440 --> 00:12:51,480 Speaker 1: I mean the way it's been put to me by 241 00:12:51,480 --> 00:12:54,720 Speaker 1: diplomats is that New Zealand's taken an active stance on 242 00:12:54,800 --> 00:12:58,520 Speaker 1: the war in Ukraine. We are providing military training, support, 243 00:12:59,160 --> 00:13:02,480 Speaker 1: economic system it's to Ukraine, while at the same time 244 00:13:02,559 --> 00:13:06,280 Speaker 1: and also past their own sanction tact targeting Russia, while 245 00:13:06,320 --> 00:13:07,840 Speaker 1: at the same time part of the realm of New 246 00:13:07,920 --> 00:13:10,840 Speaker 1: Zealand was sort of flagging a large play the tankers 247 00:13:10,880 --> 00:13:13,439 Speaker 1: to work for Russia to allow them to raise revenues 248 00:13:13,520 --> 00:13:15,800 Speaker 1: to allow them to continue the other side of the war. 249 00:13:16,559 --> 00:13:19,400 Speaker 1: It's you know, you don't want to be funding both 250 00:13:19,440 --> 00:13:22,040 Speaker 1: sides of war unless you know you're a really dubious 251 00:13:22,160 --> 00:13:25,240 Speaker 1: arms dealer. And I think New Zealand is not hangling 252 00:13:25,280 --> 00:13:25,480 Speaker 1: for that. 253 00:13:31,400 --> 00:13:33,280 Speaker 3: If I were in a league and I'm going back 254 00:13:33,320 --> 00:13:33,600 Speaker 3: to this. 255 00:13:34,200 --> 00:13:36,720 Speaker 2: Because I don't I also don't want people thinking that 256 00:13:36,760 --> 00:13:40,120 Speaker 2: I am actually interested in becoming an illegal oil dealer 257 00:13:40,160 --> 00:13:41,000 Speaker 2: in the Baltics. 258 00:13:41,040 --> 00:13:43,000 Speaker 3: But I was trying to put myself in those shoes. 259 00:13:43,000 --> 00:13:44,439 Speaker 3: And on one hand, I'm. 260 00:13:44,240 --> 00:13:46,439 Speaker 2: Not sure if I would choose the Cook Islands flag 261 00:13:46,480 --> 00:13:49,840 Speaker 2: because it seems so out of place, right, But on 262 00:13:50,320 --> 00:13:56,840 Speaker 2: the same time, it's inocuousness. It's is what's attractive about it. 263 00:13:57,240 --> 00:14:01,720 Speaker 2: People would look at that flag and think, oh, that's interesting. 264 00:14:01,800 --> 00:14:04,400 Speaker 2: I not know where the flag has come from. 265 00:14:04,840 --> 00:14:05,720 Speaker 3: Does that make sense? 266 00:14:06,960 --> 00:14:09,040 Speaker 1: I think I get what you're saying. Yeah, but it 267 00:14:09,120 --> 00:14:11,440 Speaker 1: is worth noting that. I think, as I mentioned earlier, 268 00:14:12,080 --> 00:14:15,120 Speaker 1: a lot of small states run flagging services. So the 269 00:14:15,120 --> 00:14:18,120 Speaker 1: most common flag you'll see on boats is that of Panama. 270 00:14:18,240 --> 00:14:20,280 Speaker 3: Do we have any idea how much Panama gets? 271 00:14:20,920 --> 00:14:23,560 Speaker 1: Uh, that's a bit more. That's I think their businesses 272 00:14:24,600 --> 00:14:28,400 Speaker 1: several orders of magnitude larger than the cocks, So, I mean, 273 00:14:28,440 --> 00:14:31,080 Speaker 1: it's a proper medium sized business. 274 00:14:31,240 --> 00:14:36,080 Speaker 3: And you've spoken to Starboard Maritime Intelligence. What do they do? 275 00:14:36,680 --> 00:14:39,640 Speaker 1: Well? They were in New Zealand start up looking at 276 00:14:39,680 --> 00:14:41,800 Speaker 1: sort of just basically trying to track every ship on 277 00:14:41,840 --> 00:14:45,800 Speaker 1: the ocean at once in real time. Ships are required 278 00:14:45,800 --> 00:14:48,320 Speaker 1: to have a little transponder that's on that's supposed to 279 00:14:48,320 --> 00:14:50,280 Speaker 1: prevent collisions. That will you know, if you're close to 280 00:14:50,280 --> 00:14:54,080 Speaker 1: another vessel, particularly at night, you know you don't want 281 00:14:54,080 --> 00:14:58,200 Speaker 1: to oil tankers crashing into each other. But these transponders, 282 00:14:58,440 --> 00:15:00,840 Speaker 1: you know, they could be turned off, can be jammed, 283 00:15:01,880 --> 00:15:06,040 Speaker 1: they can be programmed to submit like false location data. 284 00:15:06,320 --> 00:15:09,720 Speaker 1: So what Starboard does is also messures that with satellite imagery. 285 00:15:10,080 --> 00:15:12,640 Speaker 1: And it's amazing to see what technology has done now 286 00:15:12,640 --> 00:15:16,920 Speaker 1: that you can get close sort of not quite real time, 287 00:15:17,200 --> 00:15:21,040 Speaker 1: but quite recent satellite imagery, and you can look at 288 00:15:21,080 --> 00:15:23,520 Speaker 1: part of an ocean where a transponder ping is coming 289 00:15:23,600 --> 00:15:26,120 Speaker 1: and you know, sometimes there's not a boat there, which 290 00:15:26,160 --> 00:15:30,560 Speaker 1: is usually good indicator that transponders have been messed with. 291 00:15:30,680 --> 00:15:33,920 Speaker 1: So what Starboard does are they fuse all the stuff 292 00:15:33,960 --> 00:15:40,160 Speaker 1: with ship ownership information, insurer information, flagging information and try 293 00:15:40,200 --> 00:15:42,480 Speaker 1: to build like a risk profile again based on sort 294 00:15:42,520 --> 00:15:44,240 Speaker 1: of the age of a vessel and where it is 295 00:15:44,320 --> 00:15:50,960 Speaker 1: and how dubious tracking information has been. And they've been 296 00:15:51,000 --> 00:15:55,920 Speaker 1: providing that data to national governments and large logistics companies 297 00:15:56,480 --> 00:15:58,280 Speaker 1: for the last couple of years. I think they just 298 00:15:58,360 --> 00:16:01,920 Speaker 1: recently raised twenty three million dollars and Series A funding, 299 00:16:02,040 --> 00:16:04,880 Speaker 1: So they're a company to keep an eye out for. 300 00:16:05,080 --> 00:16:07,000 Speaker 1: And they've done amazing work for me on this story. 301 00:16:07,000 --> 00:16:09,080 Speaker 1: They were able to build me a real time map 302 00:16:09,120 --> 00:16:12,160 Speaker 1: of the Cocolan's tanker fleet, and I've published some of 303 00:16:12,200 --> 00:16:14,880 Speaker 1: those tracks and they're pretty amazing to see just all 304 00:16:14,880 --> 00:16:17,800 Speaker 1: those really solid white lines coming out of Saint Peter's 305 00:16:17,800 --> 00:16:21,240 Speaker 1: Big in Crimea and winding their way around to China. 306 00:16:21,640 --> 00:16:23,800 Speaker 2: Yeah, and it's interesting as well how they because they're 307 00:16:23,800 --> 00:16:26,800 Speaker 2: obviously living and breathing this data and seeing where all 308 00:16:26,840 --> 00:16:30,840 Speaker 2: of these ships are going. Do you think that the 309 00:16:30,880 --> 00:16:35,440 Speaker 2: general New Zealand public would be shocked to see maybe 310 00:16:35,480 --> 00:16:37,400 Speaker 2: a map like the one that you published this morning. 311 00:16:37,720 --> 00:16:41,120 Speaker 1: Well, I think that Matt tells the story. And again, 312 00:16:41,520 --> 00:16:44,160 Speaker 1: while they've been sort of whispers and traces of this 313 00:16:44,280 --> 00:16:46,320 Speaker 1: that have come out over the last few years, when 314 00:16:46,360 --> 00:16:48,560 Speaker 1: you're able to when you ask the question, well, what 315 00:16:48,640 --> 00:16:52,920 Speaker 1: was the Cocolan inflict doing when this these dubious registrations 316 00:16:52,960 --> 00:16:56,360 Speaker 1: were at their peak, it's very clear what they were shipping. 317 00:16:56,400 --> 00:16:59,240 Speaker 1: Russian oil because you know, you don't take any do 318 00:16:59,400 --> 00:17:02,360 Speaker 1: or you know, take a full oil tanker to Russia 319 00:17:02,560 --> 00:17:05,640 Speaker 1: to offload oil. I mean, Russia's an oil exporting countries, 320 00:17:05,680 --> 00:17:09,760 Speaker 1: So there's it's very hard to sort of explain that 321 00:17:09,800 --> 00:17:12,879 Speaker 1: away as a couple of rogue operators. What looks like everything. 322 00:17:13,240 --> 00:17:17,679 Speaker 1: Almost every single tanker the Cooks had flagged was engaged 323 00:17:17,720 --> 00:17:18,400 Speaker 1: in this trade. 324 00:17:18,600 --> 00:17:20,840 Speaker 3: And the fleet's gone down though since then. 325 00:17:20,800 --> 00:17:23,800 Speaker 1: Yep, they've dramatically prone. It s actually smaller than it 326 00:17:23,880 --> 00:17:25,800 Speaker 1: was in twenty two hour. 327 00:17:26,000 --> 00:17:27,800 Speaker 3: Are they getting a bit too much attention? 328 00:17:28,040 --> 00:17:30,520 Speaker 1: Well, they were certainly getting pression from Wrllington. I think 329 00:17:31,000 --> 00:17:34,080 Speaker 1: New Zealand had signed up to an initiative from the 330 00:17:34,160 --> 00:17:37,080 Speaker 1: United Kingdom to crack down on the shadow fleet. And 331 00:17:37,680 --> 00:17:39,680 Speaker 1: someone went and checked and the Cook Island register indeed 332 00:17:39,760 --> 00:17:42,199 Speaker 1: had a bunch of sectioned vessels on it, and there 333 00:17:42,200 --> 00:17:44,119 Speaker 1: were some queries as to why they're all there, Why 334 00:17:44,160 --> 00:17:46,800 Speaker 1: they're all there, why they're still there Maritime Cook Islands, 335 00:17:46,800 --> 00:17:50,240 Speaker 1: I think in February of this year decided, you know, 336 00:17:50,280 --> 00:17:51,960 Speaker 1: the risks were too great and they were no longer 337 00:17:51,960 --> 00:17:53,879 Speaker 1: going to allow their vessels to operate at the Baltic 338 00:17:54,280 --> 00:17:57,440 Speaker 1: and by May they decided, actually any Russian oil it's 339 00:17:57,520 --> 00:18:01,160 Speaker 1: just too difficult to risk. And so you know, now 340 00:18:01,200 --> 00:18:03,359 Speaker 1: that I think the only two sanctioned vessels that remain 341 00:18:03,440 --> 00:18:06,400 Speaker 1: on the Cooks register are you know, the Ego Less 342 00:18:06,640 --> 00:18:12,359 Speaker 1: that arrested tanker suspected of sabotage, and that's at the 343 00:18:12,400 --> 00:18:16,720 Speaker 1: request of authorities in Finland, you know, who don't want 344 00:18:16,800 --> 00:18:20,879 Speaker 1: this vessel going off the books. And also the Oligat 345 00:18:21,440 --> 00:18:23,800 Speaker 1: super yacht that was seized in twenty twenty two. You know, 346 00:18:23,840 --> 00:18:26,720 Speaker 1: the FBI thought there was an absolutely great score, but 347 00:18:26,800 --> 00:18:29,600 Speaker 1: unfortunately that's got tied up in a legal dispute and 348 00:18:29,640 --> 00:18:31,280 Speaker 1: the US government is paying a million and a half 349 00:18:31,359 --> 00:18:35,040 Speaker 1: dollars just in maintenance. Here's a hot fear of viewers. 350 00:18:35,200 --> 00:18:37,080 Speaker 1: Do not buy a super yot unless you can burn 351 00:18:37,080 --> 00:18:38,120 Speaker 1: a million dollars a month. 352 00:18:38,600 --> 00:18:42,640 Speaker 2: Well yeah, well, I'll note that down for next time. 353 00:18:42,720 --> 00:18:46,520 Speaker 3: The lott of Girt's up to fifty five million. What's 354 00:18:46,520 --> 00:18:47,879 Speaker 3: Winston Peters said about all this? 355 00:18:48,680 --> 00:18:52,560 Speaker 1: He's issued some very strong commentary on this. I described 356 00:18:52,600 --> 00:18:57,360 Speaker 1: the Cockland's flagging, particularly of the Russian shadow Fleet, as 357 00:18:57,400 --> 00:19:02,120 Speaker 1: alarming and infuriating. I've seen about this predate the sort 358 00:19:02,119 --> 00:19:04,879 Speaker 1: of big China issue that blew up between New Zealand 359 00:19:04,880 --> 00:19:06,000 Speaker 1: and the Cooks earlier this year. 360 00:19:06,040 --> 00:19:07,000 Speaker 3: I think quite salty. 361 00:19:07,320 --> 00:19:10,080 Speaker 1: Oh it's beyond that. It's ended into a deep freeze now. 362 00:19:10,160 --> 00:19:11,800 Speaker 1: I mean, so there's a range of issues that New 363 00:19:11,880 --> 00:19:16,320 Speaker 1: Zealand has grown increasingly frustrated over and basically hasn't seen 364 00:19:16,359 --> 00:19:18,600 Speaker 1: any backdown at all from the Cox because I mean, 365 00:19:18,640 --> 00:19:20,919 Speaker 1: the Cook Island is left in this very awkward position 366 00:19:21,000 --> 00:19:23,320 Speaker 1: that it's not a dependency. You know, it's not run 367 00:19:23,359 --> 00:19:27,840 Speaker 1: from Wellington. It's also not independent, so it gets a 368 00:19:27,880 --> 00:19:31,639 Speaker 1: lot of local autonomy. It can run its own local 369 00:19:31,680 --> 00:19:34,920 Speaker 1: services and justice system, but foreign policy is supposed to 370 00:19:34,960 --> 00:19:37,640 Speaker 1: be sort of overseen by New Zealand, and that's been 371 00:19:37,640 --> 00:19:41,160 Speaker 1: the real tension point where you know, running its own 372 00:19:41,200 --> 00:19:44,639 Speaker 1: shipping registry is sort of in that gray area, and 373 00:19:44,760 --> 00:19:48,080 Speaker 1: signing deals with China also in that area. And so 374 00:19:48,560 --> 00:19:51,120 Speaker 1: from what I understand, the relationship between Rawatong and Wellington 375 00:19:51,400 --> 00:19:53,840 Speaker 1: is the worst it's ever been. There haven't been any 376 00:19:53,880 --> 00:19:57,720 Speaker 1: formal meetings between ministers on both sides for over a year. 377 00:19:58,920 --> 00:20:00,720 Speaker 3: Where to next, you reckon. 378 00:20:00,520 --> 00:20:05,119 Speaker 1: Yeah, well, the shipping industry, I mean they've cleaned up 379 00:20:05,119 --> 00:20:07,439 Speaker 1: there act, but huge questions remain as to how they 380 00:20:07,480 --> 00:20:12,040 Speaker 1: could allow themselves to be effectively exploited by Russia and 381 00:20:12,080 --> 00:20:15,199 Speaker 1: Iranian interest to sort of export you know, billions and 382 00:20:15,240 --> 00:20:17,040 Speaker 1: billions and billions of dollars worth of oil. 383 00:20:17,960 --> 00:20:19,879 Speaker 2: But at the same time it kind of sounds like 384 00:20:19,920 --> 00:20:25,800 Speaker 2: the Cook Islands government isn't getting enough from this privatized 385 00:20:25,840 --> 00:20:26,840 Speaker 2: company as well. 386 00:20:26,760 --> 00:20:30,720 Speaker 1: No, getting very little. They did defend themselves and said like, well, 387 00:20:30,800 --> 00:20:34,439 Speaker 1: the company does employed twenty people in Rawata, some of 388 00:20:34,440 --> 00:20:39,080 Speaker 1: them pay tax. I mean, it's yeah, I mean, it's 389 00:20:39,400 --> 00:20:43,960 Speaker 1: my own opinion at the risk sort of reward equation 390 00:20:44,119 --> 00:20:47,359 Speaker 1: here is a bit too heavy on the former in 391 00:20:47,480 --> 00:20:49,800 Speaker 1: terms of the relationship with between the Zealand and the Cooks. 392 00:20:49,840 --> 00:20:53,199 Speaker 1: I mean, there needs to be there needs to be 393 00:20:53,200 --> 00:20:56,520 Speaker 1: some dialogue down the line. But I think the Cooks 394 00:20:56,520 --> 00:20:59,960 Speaker 1: need to have a think about whether they want to 395 00:21:00,080 --> 00:21:02,480 Speaker 1: be independent or not. Because if they want to, you know, 396 00:21:02,520 --> 00:21:05,920 Speaker 1: print their own passports and become like a dodgy haven 397 00:21:06,000 --> 00:21:08,960 Speaker 1: for crypto and run their own shipping registry as they want, 398 00:21:09,040 --> 00:21:12,320 Speaker 1: then you know they can do that as an independent state, 399 00:21:12,880 --> 00:21:15,280 Speaker 1: although you know it would be quite difficult giving only 400 00:21:15,680 --> 00:21:18,920 Speaker 1: seventeen thousand people live in RaRo to sustaining that, but 401 00:21:19,040 --> 00:21:20,840 Speaker 1: you know there are some micro states out there. 402 00:21:21,600 --> 00:21:22,439 Speaker 3: Thanks for joining us. 403 00:21:22,480 --> 00:21:26,440 Speaker 1: Matt, thanks for having me, Chelsea. 404 00:21:27,560 --> 00:21:30,800 Speaker 2: That's it for this episode of the Front Page. You 405 00:21:30,840 --> 00:21:34,720 Speaker 2: can read more about today's stories and extensive news coverage 406 00:21:34,760 --> 00:21:38,840 Speaker 2: at enzadherld dot co dot nz. The Front Page is 407 00:21:38,920 --> 00:21:42,320 Speaker 2: produced by Jane Ye and Richard Martin, who is also 408 00:21:42,520 --> 00:21:47,000 Speaker 2: our editor. I'm Chelsea Daniels. Subscribe to the Front Page 409 00:21:47,040 --> 00:21:50,639 Speaker 2: on iHeartRadio or wherever you get your podcasts, and tune 410 00:21:50,680 --> 00:21:56,040 Speaker 2: in tomorrow for another look behind the headlines.