1 00:00:06,707 --> 00:00:10,467 Speaker 1: You're listening to the Weekend Sport podcast with Jason Vine 2 00:00:10,747 --> 00:00:11,907 Speaker 1: from Newstalk ZEDB. 3 00:00:13,027 --> 00:00:16,267 Speaker 2: The fifteen man code is front and center of our 4 00:00:16,347 --> 00:00:20,427 Speaker 2: consciousness right now. Let's get an English viewpoint on this 5 00:00:20,507 --> 00:00:24,347 Speaker 2: evening's Test match. Daniel Schofield rights for the Telegraph and 6 00:00:24,427 --> 00:00:26,427 Speaker 2: as in New Zealand to cover this series. It joins 7 00:00:26,467 --> 00:00:29,627 Speaker 2: us now on Weekend Sport. Daniel, thanks for taking the time. 8 00:00:30,107 --> 00:00:35,227 Speaker 2: How optimistic are you of England winning one or even 9 00:00:35,267 --> 00:00:37,107 Speaker 2: both of these Test matches? 10 00:00:38,427 --> 00:00:42,387 Speaker 3: More optimistic than I think any England team has been 11 00:00:42,707 --> 00:00:46,187 Speaker 3: coming here probably since two thousand and three, and that 12 00:00:46,307 --> 00:00:48,907 Speaker 3: two thousand and three lots some of them actually rate 13 00:00:49,187 --> 00:00:52,867 Speaker 3: winning in Wellington as highly as they did. 14 00:00:54,427 --> 00:00:58,347 Speaker 4: Winning the World Cup that year in two thousand and eight. 15 00:00:58,387 --> 00:01:02,667 Speaker 3: I believe it was in twenty fourteen England already knew 16 00:01:02,707 --> 00:01:05,427 Speaker 3: they were beaten coming on the plane. That there are 17 00:01:05,507 --> 00:01:09,467 Speaker 3: various sorts of factors back in England, that lack of 18 00:01:09,507 --> 00:01:15,067 Speaker 3: preparation time, certain players joining late. But I guess moreover, 19 00:01:15,347 --> 00:01:19,627 Speaker 3: the All Blacks were seen as pretty invincible, particularly in 20 00:01:19,707 --> 00:01:24,227 Speaker 3: that twenty fourteen era, and I just think it's such 21 00:01:24,227 --> 00:01:26,827 Speaker 3: a different scenario this time around. England are coming out 22 00:01:26,867 --> 00:01:29,947 Speaker 3: with quite a bit of momentum from the way they 23 00:01:29,947 --> 00:01:35,387 Speaker 3: finished the Six Nations the reasonably well in Japan. They've 24 00:01:35,387 --> 00:01:40,867 Speaker 3: got settled combinations and a quiet confidence and obviously arriving 25 00:01:40,867 --> 00:01:43,667 Speaker 3: at a time when the All Blacks are in transition 26 00:01:43,787 --> 00:01:50,387 Speaker 3: with a new coach, new captain, new halfbacks, that there's 27 00:01:51,427 --> 00:01:54,507 Speaker 3: a real sense that this is probably England's best chance 28 00:01:54,547 --> 00:01:57,467 Speaker 3: since so free and could be their best chance again 29 00:01:57,547 --> 00:02:00,027 Speaker 3: for another twenty thirty years. We don't know how the 30 00:02:00,107 --> 00:02:02,307 Speaker 3: sort of tours are going to work out in future 31 00:02:02,347 --> 00:02:07,507 Speaker 3: with the Nation's championship, but you won't find Steve Borthwick 32 00:02:07,627 --> 00:02:10,147 Speaker 3: or anyone making sort of loud proclamations about this. 33 00:02:10,227 --> 00:02:13,387 Speaker 4: But there's a real quiet confidence that. 34 00:02:15,107 --> 00:02:17,787 Speaker 3: England can can go and yeah win for the first 35 00:02:17,827 --> 00:02:20,427 Speaker 3: time in New Zealand in twenty one years. 36 00:02:20,867 --> 00:02:22,987 Speaker 2: What did you make of the side named by Steve 37 00:02:23,027 --> 00:02:24,747 Speaker 2: Borthwick for this first Test? 38 00:02:27,307 --> 00:02:32,147 Speaker 3: Pretty much as advertised that they he's He's made a 39 00:02:32,227 --> 00:02:39,987 Speaker 3: real point almost since he came on board after Eddie Jones, 40 00:02:40,027 --> 00:02:44,787 Speaker 3: that the most successful sides are built on cohesion and continuity. 41 00:02:45,427 --> 00:02:47,827 Speaker 4: Now you can't always control that. 42 00:02:47,707 --> 00:02:51,307 Speaker 3: With like injuries and suspensions, but he have a sort 43 00:02:51,347 --> 00:02:54,067 Speaker 3: of flag that there were going to be minimal changes 44 00:02:54,067 --> 00:02:56,067 Speaker 3: from Japan and. 45 00:02:57,467 --> 00:02:59,747 Speaker 4: Something like Marcus Smith he wanted to start. 46 00:03:01,347 --> 00:03:05,147 Speaker 3: Throughout the Six Nations, but again circumstance meant that he 47 00:03:05,267 --> 00:03:09,907 Speaker 3: injured his calf in a warm weather training camp in Drona, so. 48 00:03:11,347 --> 00:03:12,387 Speaker 4: There weren't many surprises. 49 00:03:12,427 --> 00:03:16,947 Speaker 3: They've obviously changed the props and I think he's wherey, 50 00:03:17,187 --> 00:03:20,347 Speaker 3: particularly after what happened in the World Cup semifinal against 51 00:03:20,347 --> 00:03:23,307 Speaker 3: South Africa where he sort of frontloaded his best scrummagers 52 00:03:23,827 --> 00:03:27,307 Speaker 3: that you don't necessarily start Cole and Mahler together, that 53 00:03:27,907 --> 00:03:33,547 Speaker 3: they works better in a combination. So no real surprises 54 00:03:33,587 --> 00:03:36,467 Speaker 3: and fairly there's obviously it will be a few faces 55 00:03:36,507 --> 00:03:40,587 Speaker 3: that maybe New Zealand listeners will be unaware of, like 56 00:03:40,667 --> 00:03:46,547 Speaker 3: fair Boso and Freeman on the wings, but they're relatively settled. 57 00:03:48,107 --> 00:03:50,107 Speaker 2: These two tests come at the end of a very 58 00:03:50,187 --> 00:03:52,467 Speaker 2: very busy few months, don't the if we go back 59 00:03:52,467 --> 00:03:55,587 Speaker 2: to the World Cup and in England coming within one 60 00:03:55,627 --> 00:03:57,867 Speaker 2: point of beating South Africa and making the World Cup 61 00:03:57,907 --> 00:04:02,027 Speaker 2: final the Six Nations which was very fiercely fought, will 62 00:04:02,107 --> 00:04:05,107 Speaker 2: the timing of these two test matches apply it all 63 00:04:05,147 --> 00:04:07,387 Speaker 2: into New Zealand's favor. I guess another way of asking 64 00:04:07,387 --> 00:04:09,547 Speaker 2: that question is will England be a bit fatigued? 65 00:04:11,347 --> 00:04:13,827 Speaker 3: Yeah, I mean you can definitely see it like that. 66 00:04:14,507 --> 00:04:19,507 Speaker 3: I would say that the England team has been fairly 67 00:04:19,547 --> 00:04:23,307 Speaker 3: refreshed since the World Cup. You've obviously lost a lot 68 00:04:23,307 --> 00:04:27,187 Speaker 3: of experienced people like Owen Farrell, Courtney Laws, manituur Lagi 69 00:04:27,307 --> 00:04:35,347 Speaker 3: and someone like many fail Boso wasn't involved at the 70 00:04:35,387 --> 00:04:38,147 Speaker 3: World Cup and in fact, yeah, he was playing sort 71 00:04:38,187 --> 00:04:41,587 Speaker 3: of club rugby a little more than sort of eighteen 72 00:04:41,587 --> 00:04:48,987 Speaker 3: months ago, so yeah, and someone like Maritose he technically 73 00:04:49,267 --> 00:04:50,627 Speaker 3: shouldn't really be on this tour. 74 00:04:50,667 --> 00:04:53,707 Speaker 4: There's a limit with the Rugby. 75 00:04:53,387 --> 00:04:56,947 Speaker 3: Players Association that you shouldn't play more than thirty four 76 00:04:56,987 --> 00:05:00,267 Speaker 3: game equivalents, so the equivalent of twenty four hundred minutes. 77 00:05:00,307 --> 00:05:03,787 Speaker 3: So he's going to go over this limit on this tour. 78 00:05:04,347 --> 00:05:06,907 Speaker 3: But I think he's the only one, and the they've 79 00:05:06,907 --> 00:05:09,587 Speaker 3: obviously manufacturer. 80 00:05:08,987 --> 00:05:11,507 Speaker 4: Loophole in order for him to do that. 81 00:05:12,187 --> 00:05:16,387 Speaker 3: I don't think fatigue would be cited as an excuse 82 00:05:16,427 --> 00:05:20,867 Speaker 3: if they lose, but I'm sure I could be proved 83 00:05:20,907 --> 00:05:21,467 Speaker 3: wrong on that. 84 00:05:22,267 --> 00:05:24,947 Speaker 2: Do you get a sense that the All Blacks might 85 00:05:24,987 --> 00:05:29,947 Speaker 2: be vulnerable under a new coach, a new captain, you know, 86 00:05:30,587 --> 00:05:33,627 Speaker 2: a bunch of pretty experienced players having now departed. Do 87 00:05:33,707 --> 00:05:35,467 Speaker 2: you get a sense that the All Blacks may be 88 00:05:35,587 --> 00:05:36,787 Speaker 2: vulnerable tonight? 89 00:05:38,467 --> 00:05:38,987 Speaker 4: Definitely. 90 00:05:40,187 --> 00:05:43,267 Speaker 3: I'm not not necessarily saying that England are red hot 91 00:05:43,307 --> 00:05:47,827 Speaker 3: favorites or anything like that, but there are at a 92 00:05:47,827 --> 00:05:51,187 Speaker 3: crossroads with a new coach and new captain. No one 93 00:05:51,227 --> 00:05:54,147 Speaker 3: really knows what to expect. I guess that another way 94 00:05:54,227 --> 00:05:56,747 Speaker 3: to put it is that when they came England came 95 00:05:56,747 --> 00:06:02,547 Speaker 3: here in twenty fourteen, the team was absolutely stacked with 96 00:06:03,227 --> 00:06:06,627 Speaker 3: world class players. Now you put someone like Ardis in 97 00:06:06,627 --> 00:06:13,547 Speaker 3: that category, but don't quite have the players like Carter Smith, 98 00:06:14,067 --> 00:06:19,987 Speaker 3: Non Neukano, Retallic etc. Who were probably struck a little 99 00:06:19,987 --> 00:06:22,867 Speaker 3: bit of fear into England back then. I don't think 100 00:06:22,987 --> 00:06:26,827 Speaker 3: this All Blacks team necessarily has the same fear factor 101 00:06:27,267 --> 00:06:28,707 Speaker 3: of that its predecessors. 102 00:06:28,707 --> 00:06:31,827 Speaker 2: Did you spend a bit of time and then around 103 00:06:31,827 --> 00:06:34,827 Speaker 2: the All Blacks at the start of the week where 104 00:06:34,907 --> 00:06:37,307 Speaker 2: you were in Wellington and and got a bit of 105 00:06:37,307 --> 00:06:40,867 Speaker 2: a sense of what they're about? What did you make 106 00:06:40,947 --> 00:06:42,987 Speaker 2: of the All Blacks? What sense did you get from 107 00:06:43,027 --> 00:06:45,427 Speaker 2: them with regard to the challenge the whole face from 108 00:06:45,427 --> 00:06:47,507 Speaker 2: England and how they're approaching that. 109 00:06:49,467 --> 00:06:51,547 Speaker 3: So I should I should say it's my first time 110 00:06:51,747 --> 00:06:56,147 Speaker 3: in New Zealand. So I was in little surprised that 111 00:06:56,947 --> 00:07:00,787 Speaker 3: that seemed to be a sense of general nervousness. That 112 00:07:00,947 --> 00:07:04,187 Speaker 3: the perception I've had is that the kiwis always very 113 00:07:04,227 --> 00:07:08,547 Speaker 3: cockshaw and that's probably a compliment that, you know, they've 114 00:07:08,587 --> 00:07:11,067 Speaker 3: had such a successful team for so many years that 115 00:07:11,587 --> 00:07:16,787 Speaker 3: victories has taken for granted. I didn't get that sense 116 00:07:16,827 --> 00:07:22,427 Speaker 3: at all. I wrote a piece that effectively like the 117 00:07:22,467 --> 00:07:25,107 Speaker 3: All Blacks were killing England with kindness, sort of going 118 00:07:25,187 --> 00:07:28,787 Speaker 3: overboard with how nice they were and were really sort 119 00:07:28,827 --> 00:07:34,627 Speaker 3: of flashing their teeth, which I completely understand the position 120 00:07:34,667 --> 00:07:37,587 Speaker 3: they're in that they can't necessarily be sort of thumping 121 00:07:37,667 --> 00:07:38,547 Speaker 3: their chests like. 122 00:07:39,387 --> 00:07:43,387 Speaker 4: Razi Erasmus does for South Africa. 123 00:07:43,427 --> 00:07:47,547 Speaker 3: But yeah, I was surprised a little bit the sense 124 00:07:47,587 --> 00:07:50,267 Speaker 3: of nervousness. And you know, a colleague was at the 125 00:07:51,987 --> 00:07:55,467 Speaker 3: squad announcement and said, like Scott Robson looked really, really 126 00:07:55,507 --> 00:08:01,307 Speaker 3: nervous in that situation. So obviously it would be a 127 00:08:01,347 --> 00:08:03,747 Speaker 3: frightening experience for anyone to sort of talk in front 128 00:08:03,787 --> 00:08:07,267 Speaker 3: of lots of cameras and feel that way of the 129 00:08:07,387 --> 00:08:12,107 Speaker 3: nation on his shoulders. But even yesterday he didn't look 130 00:08:12,227 --> 00:08:13,947 Speaker 3: all that comfortable in that environment. 131 00:08:14,827 --> 00:08:17,627 Speaker 2: Yeah, I read the piece actually, and yeah you picked 132 00:08:17,707 --> 00:08:20,267 Speaker 2: up on Scott Hanson, one of the assistant coaches, calling 133 00:08:20,307 --> 00:08:23,947 Speaker 2: England beautiful. The fact that compared to ten years ago, 134 00:08:24,667 --> 00:08:26,747 Speaker 2: you know, when the All Blacks didn't really know too 135 00:08:26,747 --> 00:08:30,027 Speaker 2: many of the England players, there's been a greater amount 136 00:08:30,107 --> 00:08:32,827 Speaker 2: of detail this time around. If England are to win 137 00:08:32,867 --> 00:08:35,667 Speaker 2: tonight or to win next weekend or both, what do 138 00:08:35,787 --> 00:08:37,667 Speaker 2: they have to do particularly well? 139 00:08:39,787 --> 00:08:44,427 Speaker 3: I think I'll probably list off of a load of 140 00:08:44,427 --> 00:08:47,267 Speaker 3: cliches here, but whether in the early storm, I think 141 00:08:47,347 --> 00:08:51,267 Speaker 3: England have sort of know that the All Blacks are 142 00:08:51,267 --> 00:08:53,707 Speaker 3: going to come out firing, and they know it's going 143 00:08:53,747 --> 00:08:57,347 Speaker 3: to be really loud in the the Sithebar Stadium tonight 144 00:08:58,347 --> 00:09:01,147 Speaker 3: and that the conditions are going to be tricky. If 145 00:09:01,187 --> 00:09:06,027 Speaker 3: they can weather that early storm, then I think it'll 146 00:09:06,067 --> 00:09:10,067 Speaker 3: be a tight game. And whether that sort of weight 147 00:09:10,107 --> 00:09:13,347 Speaker 3: of expectation and the nerves would start to play on 148 00:09:13,387 --> 00:09:20,307 Speaker 3: your Black shoulders. As much as England's game attacking game 149 00:09:20,307 --> 00:09:24,507 Speaker 3: has evolved over the course of six Nations, that the 150 00:09:24,547 --> 00:09:29,547 Speaker 3: fundamentals are always to set piece and particularly under Steve Borthwick, 151 00:09:29,747 --> 00:09:33,107 Speaker 3: line out and scrum which have improved. But obviously the 152 00:09:33,107 --> 00:09:37,707 Speaker 3: All Blacks have made great strides since the sort of 153 00:09:37,707 --> 00:09:42,307 Speaker 3: new coaching staff have comeing in that area as well. Yeah, 154 00:09:42,947 --> 00:09:45,347 Speaker 3: I think I don't think it's going to be a 155 00:09:45,387 --> 00:09:49,707 Speaker 3: trifest I think it's going to be more more excided 156 00:09:49,747 --> 00:09:55,827 Speaker 3: by the probably the goalkickers than necessarily the wingers out wide. 157 00:09:56,507 --> 00:09:58,107 Speaker 2: And just to finish Shill, we just zoom out a 158 00:09:58,107 --> 00:10:01,147 Speaker 2: bit from from from tonight's game and this tear series. 159 00:10:01,427 --> 00:10:03,307 Speaker 2: As I say, England third and the six Nations, but 160 00:10:03,347 --> 00:10:05,667 Speaker 2: they bete Ireland and only lost to France by just 161 00:10:05,707 --> 00:10:08,627 Speaker 2: the two points, you know, close, as I said before, 162 00:10:08,667 --> 00:10:10,987 Speaker 2: to a World Cup final at the back end of 163 00:10:11,067 --> 00:10:13,827 Speaker 2: last year. Where do you assist Daniel. We're England rugby 164 00:10:14,027 --> 00:10:15,147 Speaker 2: is right now. 165 00:10:18,827 --> 00:10:22,307 Speaker 3: We're definitely not in the sort of elite category by 166 00:10:22,307 --> 00:10:28,547 Speaker 3: any means, but it's probably been You'd have to go 167 00:10:28,667 --> 00:10:32,747 Speaker 3: back to twenty nineteen and the World Cup semi final 168 00:10:32,787 --> 00:10:37,307 Speaker 3: which against New Zealand, which is still used as the 169 00:10:37,347 --> 00:10:39,987 Speaker 3: sort of high watermark for English rugby recent years, but 170 00:10:40,587 --> 00:10:43,827 Speaker 3: really there hasn't been a lot of optimism since. 171 00:10:43,587 --> 00:10:47,027 Speaker 4: Then after that World Cup. 172 00:10:48,747 --> 00:10:53,747 Speaker 3: Under Eddie sort of the wheels fell off slowly. They 173 00:10:53,787 --> 00:10:58,027 Speaker 3: were winning but badly in twenty twenty and then losing 174 00:10:58,107 --> 00:11:01,347 Speaker 3: a lot in twenty one and twenty to Steve Worfwick 175 00:11:01,467 --> 00:11:07,747 Speaker 3: came in with a limittedly very limited game plan that 176 00:11:08,267 --> 00:11:12,387 Speaker 3: was incredibly effective in getting England to World Cup semi 177 00:11:12,387 --> 00:11:17,107 Speaker 3: final within a point of the spring box and then 178 00:11:18,067 --> 00:11:23,187 Speaker 3: coming into this Six Nations it was again fairly limited 179 00:11:23,227 --> 00:11:26,027 Speaker 3: to begin with, but then between the Scotland and the 180 00:11:26,067 --> 00:11:29,867 Speaker 3: Island Games has been a huge transformation in the way 181 00:11:29,947 --> 00:11:34,907 Speaker 3: England have been attacking and the freedom and ambition they've shown, 182 00:11:34,907 --> 00:11:38,067 Speaker 3: which they yeah, you would have to go back five years. 183 00:11:38,587 --> 00:11:44,347 Speaker 3: So even though England certainly aren't sort of beating their 184 00:11:44,427 --> 00:11:48,027 Speaker 3: chest and pretending they're sort of world number ones, yeah 185 00:11:48,627 --> 00:11:51,427 Speaker 3: they're on. It feels like they've turned a corner. I mean, 186 00:11:51,587 --> 00:11:53,907 Speaker 3: it could all obviously come crashing down the next couple 187 00:11:53,907 --> 00:11:58,387 Speaker 3: of weeks, but there's a sense of optimism and if 188 00:11:58,387 --> 00:12:01,987 Speaker 3: you speak to most English sporting fans, the thing they 189 00:12:02,027 --> 00:12:03,667 Speaker 3: want more than anything else as a bit of hope. 190 00:12:04,507 --> 00:12:06,547 Speaker 2: Daniel, great to get your insight. Thank you so much, 191 00:12:06,587 --> 00:12:09,347 Speaker 2: Hope you're enjoying your stay here in New Zealand. Look 192 00:12:09,347 --> 00:12:12,387 Speaker 2: forward to catching up perhaps post match tonight. Thanks for 193 00:12:12,387 --> 00:12:13,547 Speaker 2: your time this afternoon. 194 00:12:13,227 --> 00:12:14,347 Speaker 4: Though, that'd be great. 195 00:12:14,747 --> 00:12:17,667 Speaker 2: Okay, thank you, no, thank you, Daniel, Daniel Scofield there, 196 00:12:17,747 --> 00:12:20,467 Speaker 2: read them in the Telegraph here as part of quite 197 00:12:20,507 --> 00:12:26,227 Speaker 2: a decent English rugby media. Actually I would say there 198 00:12:26,227 --> 00:12:28,467 Speaker 2: would be at least a dozen of them here. Had 199 00:12:28,507 --> 00:12:30,307 Speaker 2: the chance to meet and chat to a few of 200 00:12:30,347 --> 00:12:33,387 Speaker 2: them last night here and Duneda there and enjoying themselves 201 00:12:34,547 --> 00:12:38,267 Speaker 2: as traveling rugby junos tend to do, and looking forward 202 00:12:38,267 --> 00:12:41,787 Speaker 2: to tonight. Look he seemed fairly confident, didn't he. Daniel 203 00:12:41,907 --> 00:12:44,427 Speaker 2: Schofield of an England upset. 204 00:12:45,187 --> 00:12:48,387 Speaker 1: For more from Weekend Sport with Jason Fine, listen live 205 00:12:48,507 --> 00:12:51,787 Speaker 1: to News Talk sed B weekends from midday, or follow 206 00:12:51,827 --> 00:12:53,427 Speaker 1: the podcast on iHeartRadio