1 00:00:00,080 --> 00:00:03,120 Speaker 1: With us as Nikolaulus, the Finance Minister Nikolalo. 2 00:00:03,600 --> 00:00:06,800 Speaker 2: Hello and welcome back, Heather back on your show. 3 00:00:06,840 --> 00:00:08,920 Speaker 1: Lovely to be back and lovely to be chatting to you. 4 00:00:08,960 --> 00:00:10,880 Speaker 1: I want to know, by the way, seeing this is 5 00:00:10,880 --> 00:00:13,119 Speaker 1: obviously the thing that everybody's talking about. Where are we 6 00:00:13,160 --> 00:00:16,200 Speaker 1: at with these tariffs from Trump? Are we getting FaceTime 7 00:00:16,239 --> 00:00:17,040 Speaker 1: with the White House on this? 8 00:00:18,239 --> 00:00:21,720 Speaker 2: Well, our officials are continuing to engage with their counterparts 9 00:00:21,720 --> 00:00:25,000 Speaker 2: in the US. Of course, all countries now face the 10 00:00:25,040 --> 00:00:27,520 Speaker 2: same based tariff of ten percent, which is what New 11 00:00:27,600 --> 00:00:31,040 Speaker 2: Zealand's facing, And we're continuing to press the case for 12 00:00:31,120 --> 00:00:33,960 Speaker 2: our exporters, which is we'd prefer we weren't facing that. 13 00:00:34,120 --> 00:00:36,280 Speaker 1: So are we asking them to drop the tariff all together? 14 00:00:37,040 --> 00:00:40,920 Speaker 2: Well, we're pointing out that our tariff regime is very 15 00:00:40,960 --> 00:00:43,800 Speaker 2: limited towards the US, less than two percent, that we 16 00:00:43,880 --> 00:00:47,120 Speaker 2: have very few non trade barriers, and that as far 17 00:00:47,200 --> 00:00:49,559 Speaker 2: as possible, we'd like to grow the trade between our 18 00:00:49,600 --> 00:00:52,000 Speaker 2: two countries, so we'd prefer no tariff. 19 00:00:52,520 --> 00:00:54,160 Speaker 1: And are we getting any headway with us? 20 00:00:55,440 --> 00:00:57,520 Speaker 2: Well, I think there's quite a queue of people having 21 00:00:57,520 --> 00:01:01,360 Speaker 2: a chat Heather, So we are one of literally dozens 22 00:01:01,400 --> 00:01:04,800 Speaker 2: of countries around the world are probably pressing a similar case, 23 00:01:05,600 --> 00:01:07,560 Speaker 2: and I think it's too soon to say where all 24 00:01:07,560 --> 00:01:10,560 Speaker 2: of this will land, so cool heads need to prevail. 25 00:01:10,600 --> 00:01:12,199 Speaker 1: Are they actually taking our phone calls? 26 00:01:13,640 --> 00:01:17,440 Speaker 2: Well, yes they are, because the Prime Minister and the 27 00:01:17,440 --> 00:01:20,759 Speaker 2: Foreign Minister and other ministers have established relationships with their 28 00:01:20,760 --> 00:01:24,199 Speaker 2: counterparts around the world and they're speaking with them about 29 00:01:24,200 --> 00:01:27,039 Speaker 2: how they're saying seeing the tariff for regime unfold and 30 00:01:27,080 --> 00:01:31,000 Speaker 2: what it means. And in the US we have relationships 31 00:01:31,000 --> 00:01:34,080 Speaker 2: at officials level which continue to function no matter what's happening. 32 00:01:34,160 --> 00:01:36,440 Speaker 1: So how far up, Like, who's the most senior person 33 00:01:36,480 --> 00:01:38,960 Speaker 1: who's taken a phone call since these tariffs were announced? 34 00:01:39,560 --> 00:01:43,240 Speaker 2: I couldn't answer that, but I do know that now. 35 00:01:43,400 --> 00:01:45,080 Speaker 1: Just getting the receptionist, Are we. 36 00:01:46,080 --> 00:01:49,040 Speaker 2: No, I don't think so. We've got obviously an entire 37 00:01:49,080 --> 00:01:52,400 Speaker 2: embassy in Washington with senior people who speak to their 38 00:01:52,440 --> 00:01:53,480 Speaker 2: senior counterparts. 39 00:01:53,640 --> 00:01:55,760 Speaker 1: Marco Rubio taking a phone call from Winston. 40 00:01:56,840 --> 00:01:58,920 Speaker 2: I don't think they've had a discussion as yet. 41 00:01:59,080 --> 00:02:00,960 Speaker 1: So what is Winston told you? Has he told you 42 00:02:00,960 --> 00:02:02,600 Speaker 1: that he's got anybody seeing here on the phone? 43 00:02:04,360 --> 00:02:08,359 Speaker 2: Winston has told me that he is continuing to engage 44 00:02:08,440 --> 00:02:11,080 Speaker 2: via our diplomats and that that's the appropriate way to 45 00:02:11,120 --> 00:02:11,880 Speaker 2: do it right now. 46 00:02:12,040 --> 00:02:14,520 Speaker 1: Yeah, okay, So it's not sounding all that hopeful on 47 00:02:14,560 --> 00:02:16,760 Speaker 1: that front. Then do you think, based on the fact 48 00:02:16,760 --> 00:02:19,959 Speaker 1: that Trump announced these exemptions for smartphones and laptops today, 49 00:02:20,040 --> 00:02:21,720 Speaker 1: are you taking any heart from that? Does it look 50 00:02:21,760 --> 00:02:22,760 Speaker 1: to you like he's going to cave? 51 00:02:24,040 --> 00:02:26,520 Speaker 2: Well, it looks to me that there's quite a lot 52 00:02:26,560 --> 00:02:29,960 Speaker 2: of water to flow under the bridge yet. And what 53 00:02:30,040 --> 00:02:33,040 Speaker 2: President Trump has said is that he's only put a 54 00:02:33,160 --> 00:02:37,480 Speaker 2: ninety day pause on the other higher tariffs, that he 55 00:02:37,680 --> 00:02:41,359 Speaker 2: is continuing to observe the way that different countries are 56 00:02:41,360 --> 00:02:44,280 Speaker 2: retaliating with tariffs, and that all of that is being 57 00:02:44,320 --> 00:02:47,560 Speaker 2: taken into account. So I don't have a crystal ball 58 00:02:47,760 --> 00:02:50,040 Speaker 2: about where this will all land. I think anyone who 59 00:02:50,080 --> 00:02:52,880 Speaker 2: claims that they know exactly where it's all landing is 60 00:02:52,919 --> 00:02:58,440 Speaker 2: probably fibbing, because ultimately, the US administration is making decisions 61 00:02:58,480 --> 00:03:02,840 Speaker 2: in real time, decisions that we don't know the results of. 62 00:03:02,919 --> 00:03:05,440 Speaker 1: You what is Winston so worried about read what the 63 00:03:05,480 --> 00:03:08,360 Speaker 1: prime ministers said publicly, Well. 64 00:03:08,200 --> 00:03:11,440 Speaker 2: I think that they're actually saying very similar things, which 65 00:03:11,520 --> 00:03:15,640 Speaker 2: is this is a time for pragmatic dialogue. Between countries. 66 00:03:15,800 --> 00:03:18,240 Speaker 2: No one benefits when we get into tit for tat 67 00:03:18,520 --> 00:03:23,800 Speaker 2: retaliation wars that it's actually hugely beneficial to the world 68 00:03:23,880 --> 00:03:26,919 Speaker 2: as a whole and to individual countries to have free 69 00:03:26,960 --> 00:03:28,560 Speaker 2: trade flowing between borders. 70 00:03:28,760 --> 00:03:31,240 Speaker 1: Yeah, and that people should be talking points. But Winston 71 00:03:31,320 --> 00:03:33,239 Speaker 1: did say that he was hoping that the Prime Minister 72 00:03:33,280 --> 00:03:35,520 Speaker 1: would take his check his messages and take his phone 73 00:03:35,520 --> 00:03:37,400 Speaker 1: calls next time before he sees anything. That's a bit 74 00:03:37,400 --> 00:03:39,280 Speaker 1: of an admonishment. What's he so worried about. 75 00:03:39,680 --> 00:03:41,600 Speaker 2: Well, I think that he just wants to be talking 76 00:03:41,640 --> 00:03:44,400 Speaker 2: with the Prime Minister regularly at a time where clearly 77 00:03:44,920 --> 00:03:47,560 Speaker 2: trade in the world is influx. Come on, that will 78 00:03:47,560 --> 00:03:48,040 Speaker 2: be the case. 79 00:03:48,120 --> 00:03:50,440 Speaker 1: He wouldn't want it. He wouldn't have wanted those messages 80 00:03:50,520 --> 00:03:52,400 Speaker 1: checked unless he had something to say. What is he 81 00:03:52,480 --> 00:03:55,120 Speaker 1: worried about? I mean, did theist say something that he's 82 00:03:55,160 --> 00:03:55,720 Speaker 1: freaked him out. 83 00:03:56,760 --> 00:03:59,000 Speaker 2: I think you'd have to ask Winston. But what I 84 00:03:59,040 --> 00:04:01,000 Speaker 2: can tell you is that he and the Prime mini 85 00:04:01,040 --> 00:04:03,280 Speaker 2: is to have a very strong relationship and they're very 86 00:04:03,360 --> 00:04:06,200 Speaker 2: aligned in the fact that New Zealand benefits from the 87 00:04:06,200 --> 00:04:10,040 Speaker 2: free trade settings that we've pursued over multiple governments and 88 00:04:10,080 --> 00:04:12,240 Speaker 2: that we will continue to pursue Nikola. 89 00:04:12,320 --> 00:04:14,760 Speaker 1: Why are we really dropping that final test for the 90 00:04:14,760 --> 00:04:15,920 Speaker 1: full license. 91 00:04:16,680 --> 00:04:20,120 Speaker 2: Because it just adds cost and pain for people and 92 00:04:20,160 --> 00:04:23,039 Speaker 2: doesn't make anyone safer. You already have to do a 93 00:04:23,040 --> 00:04:26,200 Speaker 2: practical test when you sit you're restricted, having to do 94 00:04:26,240 --> 00:04:29,800 Speaker 2: it again for the final test. Actually, there's pretty good 95 00:04:29,800 --> 00:04:32,120 Speaker 2: evidence that it stops some people ever getting their full 96 00:04:32,200 --> 00:04:35,640 Speaker 2: driver's license because they get there restricted, they're free to 97 00:04:35,640 --> 00:04:37,120 Speaker 2: be on the road and they think are doing the 98 00:04:37,200 --> 00:04:39,479 Speaker 2: next ones are pain and actually, we want people to 99 00:04:39,480 --> 00:04:43,160 Speaker 2: have their full driver's license. We want people to not 100 00:04:43,279 --> 00:04:46,880 Speaker 2: face problems with the police when they're stopped because they 101 00:04:46,920 --> 00:04:48,760 Speaker 2: don't have the full license. So we want to make 102 00:04:48,800 --> 00:04:51,800 Speaker 2: that achievable. And the practical test for the restricted ticks 103 00:04:51,839 --> 00:04:52,680 Speaker 2: the right box. 104 00:04:52,560 --> 00:04:54,279 Speaker 1: Right, so we see it as an obstacle, like this 105 00:04:54,360 --> 00:04:57,200 Speaker 1: is legitimate. You guys said, as legitimately an obstacle to 106 00:04:57,200 --> 00:04:58,880 Speaker 1: people getting their full and so if you take it away, 107 00:04:58,920 --> 00:05:00,680 Speaker 1: people will walk squ we're up with the law. 108 00:05:00,720 --> 00:05:04,080 Speaker 2: Basically, yeah, they're more likely too, and it just reduces 109 00:05:04,120 --> 00:05:07,200 Speaker 2: another cost. It's quite stressful sitting that test. It comes 110 00:05:07,279 --> 00:05:08,920 Speaker 2: with a cost. It's something you have to book in. 111 00:05:09,320 --> 00:05:11,960 Speaker 2: And if we've already done it at the restricted stage, 112 00:05:12,040 --> 00:05:14,680 Speaker 2: then why repeat it in general? If we can reduce 113 00:05:14,720 --> 00:05:16,600 Speaker 2: the cost of living for people, if we can make 114 00:05:16,680 --> 00:05:17,919 Speaker 2: things easier, we want to. 115 00:05:18,600 --> 00:05:20,760 Speaker 1: Now, are you guys considering doing a U turn on 116 00:05:20,800 --> 00:05:22,159 Speaker 1: those infant formula rules? 117 00:05:23,160 --> 00:05:27,040 Speaker 2: Well no, so just a remind you of the situation. Essentially, 118 00:05:27,720 --> 00:05:31,680 Speaker 2: the New Zealand Australia Standard on labeling provisions would have 119 00:05:31,800 --> 00:05:35,119 Speaker 2: restricted how some of our infant formula companies were able 120 00:05:35,160 --> 00:05:38,720 Speaker 2: to market their products. Since then we said, well, if 121 00:05:38,720 --> 00:05:41,640 Speaker 2: we can't work this through, we'll withdraw. I understand that 122 00:05:41,680 --> 00:05:45,200 Speaker 2: there have now been discussions about how we could align 123 00:05:45,240 --> 00:05:47,760 Speaker 2: our interests. We want to stay in the joint food 124 00:05:47,760 --> 00:05:51,400 Speaker 2: system with Australia that has very good benefits. So this 125 00:05:51,600 --> 00:05:55,200 Speaker 2: is just a small issue relating to labeling. So if 126 00:05:55,200 --> 00:05:57,479 Speaker 2: that can be resolved and then we can stay in 127 00:05:57,480 --> 00:05:59,400 Speaker 2: the New Zealand standard, that's what we want to do. 128 00:05:59,440 --> 00:06:02,919 Speaker 2: And I understand that the Minister has been advancing discussions 129 00:06:02,920 --> 00:06:05,960 Speaker 2: on that basis. He hasn't brought recommendations to Cabinet yet, 130 00:06:05,960 --> 00:06:07,599 Speaker 2: so I wouldn't want to get ahead of him. But 131 00:06:07,640 --> 00:06:09,719 Speaker 2: if we can resolve the labeling issue and stay in 132 00:06:09,800 --> 00:06:11,280 Speaker 2: the standard, that's ideal. 133 00:06:11,360 --> 00:06:13,440 Speaker 1: So are we asking them Okay, we sign up to 134 00:06:13,480 --> 00:06:15,880 Speaker 1: the standard, but they have to change the labeling rules 135 00:06:15,880 --> 00:06:17,919 Speaker 1: to suit us. Is that essentially what we're wanting to. 136 00:06:17,920 --> 00:06:20,119 Speaker 2: Well, it may but yeah, it may be that we 137 00:06:20,360 --> 00:06:23,160 Speaker 2: stay in the standard, but then we allow for some 138 00:06:23,200 --> 00:06:26,400 Speaker 2: slightly different labeling for some of our products without having 139 00:06:26,400 --> 00:06:27,839 Speaker 2: any food safety issues. 140 00:06:27,560 --> 00:06:30,360 Speaker 1: And we don't start pulling infant formula special infant formula 141 00:06:30,360 --> 00:06:32,120 Speaker 1: off shelves and giving it to pharmacies to sell and 142 00:06:32,120 --> 00:06:33,039 Speaker 1: all that kind of nonsense. 143 00:06:33,400 --> 00:06:36,440 Speaker 2: Well, what we want to avoid is anything that restricts 144 00:06:36,520 --> 00:06:40,640 Speaker 2: the ability of our food infant formula providers to be 145 00:06:40,680 --> 00:06:43,080 Speaker 2: able to market their products effectively. So that's those are 146 00:06:43,080 --> 00:06:44,599 Speaker 2: the issues that we've been working through. 147 00:06:45,160 --> 00:06:47,800 Speaker 1: Nicola. Do you think that these rules about requiring the 148 00:06:47,800 --> 00:06:50,280 Speaker 1: public servants to use wool are really a good idea? 149 00:06:51,279 --> 00:06:54,520 Speaker 2: Yes, I do, because wool is a great product. It's 150 00:06:54,560 --> 00:07:00,320 Speaker 2: been underrated, undervalued, has lots of uses and buying to 151 00:07:00,360 --> 00:07:03,440 Speaker 2: the public agencies. Hey, look, consider wall when you're doing 152 00:07:03,480 --> 00:07:07,760 Speaker 2: your procurement. It has really good sustainability benefits. It's actually 153 00:07:07,839 --> 00:07:10,200 Speaker 2: much better value for money than any of you think, 154 00:07:10,600 --> 00:07:13,040 Speaker 2: and it has good whole of life costs By giving 155 00:07:13,240 --> 00:07:17,000 Speaker 2: agencies that nudge, We're pretty sure some very good bids 156 00:07:17,040 --> 00:07:20,080 Speaker 2: will come forward for woolen products and buildings that will 157 00:07:20,080 --> 00:07:23,680 Speaker 2: stack up on their own merits. So that creates value 158 00:07:23,680 --> 00:07:26,240 Speaker 2: for the New Zealand economy as a whole, and it 159 00:07:26,280 --> 00:07:27,760 Speaker 2: creates great products and goals. 160 00:07:27,800 --> 00:07:30,360 Speaker 1: So it's not going to it's going to work out 161 00:07:30,360 --> 00:07:32,160 Speaker 1: at the same price as a synthetic carpet. 162 00:07:33,520 --> 00:07:36,680 Speaker 2: Well, you have to take into account a number of factors. 163 00:07:36,840 --> 00:07:39,480 Speaker 2: Whole of life cost, you have to take into account, 164 00:07:39,800 --> 00:07:43,400 Speaker 2: the sustainability, you have to take into account, the health outcomes. 165 00:07:43,680 --> 00:07:47,280 Speaker 2: And we're asking our government agencies when they're doing procurement 166 00:07:47,360 --> 00:07:49,720 Speaker 2: not just to write off will write from the start, 167 00:07:49,760 --> 00:07:53,000 Speaker 2: but to consider all of those factors when they're putting 168 00:07:53,080 --> 00:07:54,760 Speaker 2: together their procurement. 169 00:07:55,720 --> 00:07:57,400 Speaker 1: Isn't it I mean it feels like the kind of 170 00:07:57,480 --> 00:07:59,680 Speaker 1: dumb rules that Muldoon would have issued in order to 171 00:07:59,680 --> 00:08:01,200 Speaker 1: proper in an industry. 172 00:08:02,240 --> 00:08:04,960 Speaker 2: Well, no, because will is a great product and it's 173 00:08:04,960 --> 00:08:06,680 Speaker 2: come a long way. It can now be used not 174 00:08:06,760 --> 00:08:10,200 Speaker 2: just for carpet, but for insulation, for acoustic panics. But 175 00:08:10,920 --> 00:08:14,880 Speaker 2: story well not always not when you take into account 176 00:08:14,920 --> 00:08:17,480 Speaker 2: the value that you're creating. And this is a principle 177 00:08:17,800 --> 00:08:20,960 Speaker 2: that I want in our procurement rules more generally, which 178 00:08:21,040 --> 00:08:24,200 Speaker 2: is we shouldn't just be saying that one's twenty cents 179 00:08:24,240 --> 00:08:26,880 Speaker 2: more expensive per meter than that one. We should be saying, 180 00:08:26,880 --> 00:08:29,920 Speaker 2: what's the value we get as a country from spending 181 00:08:29,960 --> 00:08:33,320 Speaker 2: millions of dollars on this contract? And the truth is 182 00:08:33,760 --> 00:08:37,800 Speaker 2: when it's creating a industry, when it's supporting an industry 183 00:08:38,040 --> 00:08:40,800 Speaker 2: on the margin, that can create greater value for New Zealand. 184 00:08:40,920 --> 00:08:42,439 Speaker 2: Of course we should take that into account. 185 00:08:42,600 --> 00:08:43,880 Speaker 1: Did you buy Winston a present? 186 00:08:45,240 --> 00:08:45,560 Speaker 2: Yes? 187 00:08:47,240 --> 00:08:48,160 Speaker 1: What did you buy him? 188 00:08:49,559 --> 00:08:53,200 Speaker 2: Well? I respect that he's a private person, and so 189 00:08:53,360 --> 00:08:55,320 Speaker 2: the gift that I've bought him, I will leave it 190 00:08:55,320 --> 00:08:58,319 Speaker 2: to him. Whiskey he would wish to reveal it. It 191 00:08:58,400 --> 00:09:00,280 Speaker 2: was not. I was a little more cree. Eight of 192 00:09:00,320 --> 00:09:05,400 Speaker 2: the next links. I paid tribute to his love of 193 00:09:05,520 --> 00:09:08,000 Speaker 2: rail and a form which I will lead him to 194 00:09:08,120 --> 00:09:09,160 Speaker 2: discuss should he wish to. 195 00:09:09,320 --> 00:09:11,880 Speaker 1: Okay, but you just okay, so it's got it's rail related. 196 00:09:12,000 --> 00:09:14,720 Speaker 1: Just a final question, was it a toy set or 197 00:09:14,840 --> 00:09:15,679 Speaker 1: was it a ticket on? 198 00:09:16,679 --> 00:09:21,880 Speaker 2: It was neither of those things. Series No, well those 199 00:09:21,920 --> 00:09:23,559 Speaker 2: were not Those were not a gift, because of course 200 00:09:23,559 --> 00:09:25,920 Speaker 2: they're funded by the New Zealand text path. So not 201 00:09:26,040 --> 00:09:27,560 Speaker 2: on my gift to give Nicola. 202 00:09:27,559 --> 00:09:29,120 Speaker 1: Thank you very much for your time, lovely to shat you. 203 00:09:29,120 --> 00:09:32,480 Speaker 1: That's Nicola Willis, the Finance Minister a trains. I would 204 00:09:32,520 --> 00:09:34,400 Speaker 1: have gone straight for a single malt, wouldn't you know? 205 00:09:34,440 --> 00:09:36,120 Speaker 1: That's just the simplest thing and you know bring him 206 00:09:36,120 --> 00:09:38,760 Speaker 1: a lot of joy. But you also know gone in 207 00:09:38,760 --> 00:09:42,680 Speaker 1: one night. For more from Hither Duplessy Alan Drive, listen 208 00:09:42,760 --> 00:09:45,800 Speaker 1: live to news talks it'd be from four pm weekdays, 209 00:09:45,920 --> 00:09:48,120 Speaker 1: or follow the podcast on iHeartRadio.