Speaker 1: You're listening to the Weekend Collective podcast from News talks'b
Speaker 1: So yeah.
Speaker 2: The Prime Minister Christopher Luxen. He is on his way
Speaker 2: to China this week to meet with Jijinping. New Zealand's
Speaker 2: relationship with China has been a bit of a hot
Speaker 2: topic recently. Where is it not a hot topic? I
Speaker 2: guess many people saying we need to stop cozying up
Speaker 2: with the US. This past week, prominent New Zealand leaders
Speaker 2: signed an open letter to express concern about our closeness
Speaker 2: with the States and how it could impact our relationship
Speaker 2: with China. One of them was a former Prime Minister
Speaker 2: and co signer of the letter, of course, Helen Clark,
Speaker 2: and she joins me now, Helen, Good afternoon.
Speaker 3: Good afternoon.
Speaker 2: What would success look like for New Zealand on this trip.
Speaker 3: It's a very important trip and it's good that it's happening.
Speaker 3: When I was PM, I went to China for a
Speaker 3: bilateral visit once every three years, so it has to happen.
Speaker 3: It's such a major trade partner. But the visit can't
Speaker 3: just be about trade. Important as that is, it's also
Speaker 3: a chance to talk with the most senior Chinese leadership
Speaker 3: about how they're seeing the world, to make some points
Speaker 3: about how New Zealand seeing the world, and have an
Speaker 3: all round exchange as the country with which we have
Speaker 3: a complex and strategic relationship.
Speaker 2: Who drives the agenda and the conversations that had between
Speaker 2: prime ministers and premiers.
Speaker 3: Pretty much you get to say what you want to say.
Speaker 3: I've sat down a number of these formal bilaterals, including
Speaker 3: in Beijing. In essence, they will welcome you, they will
Speaker 3: make an opening statement of some kind. The meetings with
Speaker 3: the President and with the Premier are quite different. The
Speaker 3: premier meeting is very much a working meeting, so he
Speaker 3: will welcome and then you pretty much get to set
Speaker 3: out your whole outline of what you want to say,
Speaker 3: and then he will come back and he will answer
Speaker 3: point by point. With the President more formal, he will
Speaker 3: probably make a more full statement at the beginning. Then
Speaker 3: make your statement, which needs to be at quite a
Speaker 3: high level, and then there will be probably a shorter exchange.
Speaker 3: But they are very important meetings and you need to
Speaker 3: go in, you know, totally on top of the brief,
Speaker 3: when well prepared.
Speaker 2: Yes to that. Actually, how much time did you used
Speaker 2: to spend preparing for such a meeting yourself.
Speaker 3: When you did it, oh, you would swat over the
Speaker 3: brief all the way up on the plane really and
Speaker 3: make sure you were across every nuance, and you would
Speaker 3: meet with the officials beforehand, and you know, just check
Speaker 3: check the points you're going to make and what to expect.
Speaker 3: So you go in you know, very well briefed.
Speaker 2: What do you think Jijunping and the Chinese are likely
Speaker 2: expecting from our visit.
Speaker 3: I think what they would be hoping is to hear
Speaker 3: something a little more balanced about New Zealand foreign policy
Speaker 3: than the signals which have been coming through. It's no
Speaker 3: surprise to anyone to hear me say that there has
Speaker 3: been a lot of moving back towards the US military
Speaker 3: alliance that New Zealand abandoned decades ago in under the
Speaker 3: current government, and that will be of concerns the Chinese
Speaker 3: because they've seen New Zealand as an independent player in
Speaker 3: foreign policy matters now. I think our Prime Minister goes
Speaker 3: very aware that US foreign policy and defense policy itself
Speaker 3: is somewhat erratic these days, so one can only be
Speaker 3: hopeful that he will, you know, sort of carefully calibrate
Speaker 3: the messages to China because it's a very important relationship
Speaker 3: to US. Doesn't mean that we're, you know, a puppet
Speaker 3: for them. We're not. We must never be, but we
Speaker 3: mustn't be a puppet for anybody, including the US.
Speaker 2: I get does that sort of point towards what we
Speaker 2: might guess that Luxon may say look as you know,
Speaker 2: we might say, look at the United States is an ally,
Speaker 2: but he will be wanting to find a way of
Speaker 2: emphasizing that we are not told how to react on
Speaker 2: any international issue. We are the masters of our own
Speaker 2: destiny and that and our independence.
Speaker 3: I think he needs to emphasize that, but he also
Speaker 3: needs to, in my view, send a signal that New
Speaker 3: Zealand is not going full throated into military alliances aimed
Speaker 3: at China. Why would you go into military alliances aimed
Speaker 3: at your key trading partner. So it's a bit hard
Speaker 3: to explain why the current governor's signing up to some
Speaker 3: of the things that's signing up to the US, because
Speaker 3: they do tend to point in one direction, and that's
Speaker 3: at China.
Speaker 2: The open letter that you signed, there's one thing to
Speaker 2: sort of talk amongst colleagues and former colleagues and other leaders.
Speaker 2: What prompted you to what was the straw that broke
Speaker 2: the camel's back In terms of right, we're going to
Speaker 2: write an open letter and sign it and present it.
Speaker 3: Concerns in the letter we've been expressing for some time.
Speaker 3: But I think we also see the opportunity of the
Speaker 3: Prime Minister's visit to put the relationship with China back
Speaker 3: on a better footing than it's been for the last
Speaker 3: eighteen months, when there's been a lot of pop shots
Speaker 3: from New Zealand aimed at at China. And look, we
Speaker 3: have our differences with China as a country, for sure,
Speaker 3: but we've also got a very important relationship, and diplomacy
Speaker 3: is about how you manage relationships. I guess our message
Speaker 3: is that this visit is very critical and that we
Speaker 3: would like to see the good and careful balance New
Speaker 3: Zealand foreign policy has had for decades maintained.
Speaker 2: Can we still be independent yet have our eyes I mean,
Speaker 2: giving back to that point of it raised earlier. Can't
Speaker 2: we be close to Washington without alienating Beijing.
Speaker 3: I don't think we can carry on down the course
Speaker 3: that the current government's on without doing damage to the
Speaker 3: China relationship because we're seeing New Zealand sign up to
Speaker 3: more and more military agreements with the US. I think
Speaker 3: that that will come at a cost to US. I
Speaker 3: would say Tai Ho on all that we need both countries.
Speaker 3: Both are important markets, right and the US with traditionally
Speaker 3: had more political values in common with although I must
Speaker 3: say that's pretty much in doubt at the moment when
Speaker 3: we see what's happening in the United States of America.
Speaker 3: So we need to keep our head. This is a
Speaker 3: very difficult time internationally, and New Zealand must maintain the
Speaker 3: total freedom to make its own calls.
Speaker 2: I mean, there would be people who listened to this
Speaker 2: who were seeing how China conducted those exercises, yes, and
Speaker 2: open waters and not breaching any laws. But there are
Speaker 2: many people would say, well, that's China with an active
Speaker 2: intimidation and would respond to your letter in saying that
Speaker 2: it smacks of appeasement. What's what do you reckon?
Speaker 3: Oh, I didn't think anyone would think that. I think
Speaker 3: you know, in the New Zealand community, there's a lot
Speaker 3: of people who have been to China, have done business
Speaker 3: with China, and who are concerned. If you've got a
Speaker 3: lot of exposure to China economically as a kiwi exporter
Speaker 3: or tourism provider. You have concerns right now, and I
Speaker 3: think our expression of concern for wanting a more balanced
Speaker 3: foreign policy to reassert itself will find quite an echo
Speaker 3: in New Zealand.
Speaker 2: Are you worried about potential changes in China's attitude towards
Speaker 2: peace and aggression? I mean, with the world feels a
Speaker 2: little bit more tumultuous right now, doesn't it. We've got Ukraine,
Speaker 2: We've seen what's going on in the Middle East, China's
Speaker 2: always tilting towards Taiwan. Are you concerned about a change
Speaker 2: in attitude from China.
Speaker 3: I think we need to continue to engage China, which
Speaker 3: can play an important role in also helping resolve some
Speaker 3: of the world's conflicts. Look for example, at the moment
Speaker 3: with the all the issues around Iran. Now China does
Speaker 3: keep a strategic relationship with Iran, so you know you
Speaker 3: need China as a player. China actually has played a
Speaker 3: role in recent times in a rapproshmon of some kind
Speaker 3: between Saudi Arabia and Iran. So it can be a
Speaker 3: player and it needs to be brought into these conversations
Speaker 3: to try in the search for pieces it.
Speaker 2: Were, Do you think that that's going to be part
Speaker 2: of what Luxein's aiming for and has chats with the Chinese.
Speaker 3: Well, if I sort of put myself in Luclean's position
Speaker 3: and think of what would be on my radar going
Speaker 3: into that meeting, I would be very interested to know
Speaker 3: what the Chinese are thinking about how to pull the
Speaker 3: Middle East back from the brink of outright war. Their
Speaker 3: views would be very important. You know, what cards can
Speaker 3: they play? What are they saying to the Saudis, What
Speaker 3: are they saying to the Iranians? What are they saying
Speaker 3: to the US? Because China is a major power, it
Speaker 3: does have voice, it does have influence. Now better that
Speaker 3: it's used for good.
Speaker 2: Actually, just when you went over trips, did you ever
Speaker 2: would you have ever accepted advice from former prime ministers
Speaker 2: on how to approach the relationship with the country.
Speaker 3: Or what I would have been very interested. I would
Speaker 3: have been very interested in their advice. I mean, take,
Speaker 3: for example, Jim Bolger, who had a solid seven years
Speaker 3: in the job and had visited China, you know, kind
Speaker 3: of rathered up the same frequency as I did. Jenny
Speaker 3: Shipley also had a good relationship with China. I've kept
Speaker 3: in touch with John Key over the years. He's done
Speaker 3: his best to position New Zealand will with China. And
Speaker 3: I'm sure Chris lux And listens to John, so I
Speaker 3: think you know we can be useful. We do, you know,
Speaker 3: have perspectives. We have done the hard yards, and certainly
Speaker 3: I do note that Chris Luxon didn't just dismiss our
Speaker 3: comments out of hand, because he does know that some
Speaker 3: of us have been around done the hard yards.
Speaker 2: And I guess the conversations you're talking about with Iran
Speaker 2: in the middle eas are those opportunities where you're not
Speaker 2: actually focused on New Zealand or China when you discuss
Speaker 2: between leaders, how can we solve this other problem? Are
Speaker 2: those are those particularly strong opportunities to build relationships.
Speaker 3: Very strong opportunities to get a readout from major player
Speaker 3: as to what they think is happening and to offer
Speaker 3: a New Zealand perspective. It's the same with all the
Speaker 3: major bilaterals. You have the Prime ministers going on to
Speaker 3: meet a lot of Western leaders at the NATO summit. Again,
Speaker 3: that's a major opportunity to touch base with many many
Speaker 3: leaders and put a New Zealand's stake in the ground,
Speaker 3: as it were, as to what our hopes are not.
Speaker 2: Wanting to end on too trivilla note, But did you
Speaker 2: tune in and check out the Trumpe's parade.
Speaker 3: I haven't had a chance yet. I've been looking at
Speaker 3: some of the social media would I've been writing say
Speaker 3: it was a bit of a damp squib. I saw
Speaker 3: a little bit of footage where there seem to be
Speaker 3: a lot of empty seats along the way. Of course,
Speaker 3: these huge crowds with the no King parades and a
Speaker 3: lot of cities across the state. Look, look, this is
Speaker 3: a sadly very divided country and no one wants to
Speaker 3: see the US like this. I'm devastated by the the
Speaker 3: killings of the Democrat legislators just just horrible. The US
Speaker 3: needs to pull itself back from the brink. This is
Speaker 3: not the way to go.
Speaker 2: Thanks Helen, I really appreciate your time this afternoon. Thanks
Speaker 2: very much. Yeah byye.
Speaker 1: For more from the weekend collective, listen live to news
Speaker 1: Talks there'd be weekends from three pm, or follow the
Speaker 1: podcast on iHeartRadio.