WEBVTT - Helen Clark: Christopher Luxon to meet with Xi Jinping

0:00:05.761 --> 0:00:09.681
<v Speaker 1>You're listening to the Weekend Collective podcast from News talks'b

0:00:10.161 --> 0:00:10.521
<v Speaker 1>So yeah.

0:00:10.561 --> 0:00:12.921
<v Speaker 2>The Prime Minister Christopher Luxen. He is on his way

0:00:12.921 --> 0:00:15.801
<v Speaker 2>to China this week to meet with Jijinping. New Zealand's

0:00:15.841 --> 0:00:18.361
<v Speaker 2>relationship with China has been a bit of a hot

0:00:18.361 --> 0:00:20.401
<v Speaker 2>topic recently. Where is it not a hot topic? I

0:00:20.441 --> 0:00:23.361
<v Speaker 2>guess many people saying we need to stop cozying up

0:00:23.401 --> 0:00:26.841
<v Speaker 2>with the US. This past week, prominent New Zealand leaders

0:00:26.961 --> 0:00:29.681
<v Speaker 2>signed an open letter to express concern about our closeness

0:00:29.681 --> 0:00:32.161
<v Speaker 2>with the States and how it could impact our relationship

0:00:32.161 --> 0:00:34.601
<v Speaker 2>with China. One of them was a former Prime Minister

0:00:34.641 --> 0:00:37.321
<v Speaker 2>and co signer of the letter, of course, Helen Clark,

0:00:37.361 --> 0:00:40.601
<v Speaker 2>and she joins me now, Helen, Good afternoon.

0:00:41.001 --> 0:00:41.801
<v Speaker 3>Good afternoon.

0:00:42.441 --> 0:00:46.121
<v Speaker 2>What would success look like for New Zealand on this trip.

0:00:47.961 --> 0:00:51.041
<v Speaker 3>It's a very important trip and it's good that it's happening.

0:00:51.401 --> 0:00:54.001
<v Speaker 3>When I was PM, I went to China for a

0:00:54.121 --> 0:00:58.681
<v Speaker 3>bilateral visit once every three years, so it has to happen.

0:00:58.721 --> 0:01:01.801
<v Speaker 3>It's such a major trade partner. But the visit can't

0:01:01.841 --> 0:01:04.841
<v Speaker 3>just be about trade. Important as that is, it's also

0:01:04.881 --> 0:01:07.881
<v Speaker 3>a chance to talk with the most senior Chinese leadership

0:01:07.881 --> 0:01:10.001
<v Speaker 3>about how they're seeing the world, to make some points

0:01:10.041 --> 0:01:13.281
<v Speaker 3>about how New Zealand seeing the world, and have an

0:01:13.321 --> 0:01:16.961
<v Speaker 3>all round exchange as the country with which we have

0:01:17.041 --> 0:01:20.361
<v Speaker 3>a complex and strategic relationship.

0:01:19.961 --> 0:01:23.841
<v Speaker 2>Who drives the agenda and the conversations that had between

0:01:23.881 --> 0:01:25.601
<v Speaker 2>prime ministers and premiers.

0:01:27.281 --> 0:01:29.761
<v Speaker 3>Pretty much you get to say what you want to say.

0:01:30.081 --> 0:01:34.081
<v Speaker 3>I've sat down a number of these formal bilaterals, including

0:01:34.521 --> 0:01:39.241
<v Speaker 3>in Beijing. In essence, they will welcome you, they will

0:01:40.121 --> 0:01:43.481
<v Speaker 3>make an opening statement of some kind. The meetings with

0:01:43.561 --> 0:01:46.361
<v Speaker 3>the President and with the Premier are quite different. The

0:01:46.401 --> 0:01:48.921
<v Speaker 3>premier meeting is very much a working meeting, so he

0:01:48.961 --> 0:01:51.841
<v Speaker 3>will welcome and then you pretty much get to set

0:01:51.881 --> 0:01:54.801
<v Speaker 3>out your whole outline of what you want to say,

0:01:54.921 --> 0:01:57.161
<v Speaker 3>and then he will come back and he will answer

0:01:57.201 --> 0:02:01.561
<v Speaker 3>point by point. With the President more formal, he will

0:02:01.561 --> 0:02:04.961
<v Speaker 3>probably make a more full statement at the beginning. Then

0:02:05.201 --> 0:02:08.001
<v Speaker 3>make your statement, which needs to be at quite a

0:02:08.081 --> 0:02:12.801
<v Speaker 3>high level, and then there will be probably a shorter exchange.

0:02:13.081 --> 0:02:15.521
<v Speaker 3>But they are very important meetings and you need to

0:02:15.521 --> 0:02:17.881
<v Speaker 3>go in, you know, totally on top of the brief,

0:02:18.161 --> 0:02:19.121
<v Speaker 3>when well prepared.

0:02:20.041 --> 0:02:25.241
<v Speaker 2>Yes to that. Actually, how much time did you used

0:02:25.241 --> 0:02:27.361
<v Speaker 2>to spend preparing for such a meeting yourself.

0:02:27.361 --> 0:02:30.681
<v Speaker 3>When you did it, oh, you would swat over the

0:02:30.721 --> 0:02:33.241
<v Speaker 3>brief all the way up on the plane really and

0:02:33.561 --> 0:02:36.841
<v Speaker 3>make sure you were across every nuance, and you would

0:02:36.881 --> 0:02:40.281
<v Speaker 3>meet with the officials beforehand, and you know, just check

0:02:40.841 --> 0:02:43.881
<v Speaker 3>check the points you're going to make and what to expect.

0:02:43.961 --> 0:02:46.961
<v Speaker 3>So you go in you know, very well briefed.

0:02:47.561 --> 0:02:50.801
<v Speaker 2>What do you think Jijunping and the Chinese are likely

0:02:50.841 --> 0:02:52.041
<v Speaker 2>expecting from our visit.

0:02:54.961 --> 0:02:58.641
<v Speaker 3>I think what they would be hoping is to hear

0:03:00.361 --> 0:03:03.361
<v Speaker 3>something a little more balanced about New Zealand foreign policy

0:03:03.481 --> 0:03:07.041
<v Speaker 3>than the signals which have been coming through. It's no

0:03:07.441 --> 0:03:09.761
<v Speaker 3>surprise to anyone to hear me say that there has

0:03:09.841 --> 0:03:14.281
<v Speaker 3>been a lot of moving back towards the US military

0:03:14.281 --> 0:03:19.121
<v Speaker 3>alliance that New Zealand abandoned decades ago in under the

0:03:19.121 --> 0:03:22.361
<v Speaker 3>current government, and that will be of concerns the Chinese

0:03:22.441 --> 0:03:26.201
<v Speaker 3>because they've seen New Zealand as an independent player in

0:03:26.281 --> 0:03:31.081
<v Speaker 3>foreign policy matters now. I think our Prime Minister goes

0:03:31.921 --> 0:03:36.041
<v Speaker 3>very aware that US foreign policy and defense policy itself

0:03:36.081 --> 0:03:39.881
<v Speaker 3>is somewhat erratic these days, so one can only be

0:03:40.041 --> 0:03:43.681
<v Speaker 3>hopeful that he will, you know, sort of carefully calibrate

0:03:44.801 --> 0:03:48.961
<v Speaker 3>the messages to China because it's a very important relationship

0:03:48.961 --> 0:03:51.641
<v Speaker 3>to US. Doesn't mean that we're, you know, a puppet

0:03:51.681 --> 0:03:53.881
<v Speaker 3>for them. We're not. We must never be, but we

0:03:53.961 --> 0:03:56.601
<v Speaker 3>mustn't be a puppet for anybody, including the US.

0:03:56.721 --> 0:03:59.161
<v Speaker 2>I get does that sort of point towards what we

0:03:59.281 --> 0:04:01.801
<v Speaker 2>might guess that Luxon may say look as you know,

0:04:01.881 --> 0:04:04.641
<v Speaker 2>we might say, look at the United States is an ally,

0:04:04.681 --> 0:04:07.081
<v Speaker 2>but he will be wanting to find a way of

0:04:07.161 --> 0:04:10.801
<v Speaker 2>emphasizing that we are not told how to react on

0:04:10.881 --> 0:04:13.881
<v Speaker 2>any international issue. We are the masters of our own

0:04:13.881 --> 0:04:15.481
<v Speaker 2>destiny and that and our independence.

0:04:16.641 --> 0:04:20.281
<v Speaker 3>I think he needs to emphasize that, but he also

0:04:20.481 --> 0:04:25.201
<v Speaker 3>needs to, in my view, send a signal that New

0:04:25.281 --> 0:04:32.121
<v Speaker 3>Zealand is not going full throated into military alliances aimed

0:04:32.201 --> 0:04:35.761
<v Speaker 3>at China. Why would you go into military alliances aimed

0:04:35.801 --> 0:04:38.841
<v Speaker 3>at your key trading partner. So it's a bit hard

0:04:38.881 --> 0:04:41.841
<v Speaker 3>to explain why the current governor's signing up to some

0:04:41.881 --> 0:04:44.361
<v Speaker 3>of the things that's signing up to the US, because

0:04:44.601 --> 0:04:47.241
<v Speaker 3>they do tend to point in one direction, and that's

0:04:47.361 --> 0:04:47.921
<v Speaker 3>at China.

0:04:48.601 --> 0:04:52.761
<v Speaker 2>The open letter that you signed, there's one thing to

0:04:52.761 --> 0:04:55.721
<v Speaker 2>sort of talk amongst colleagues and former colleagues and other leaders.

0:04:55.961 --> 0:04:58.641
<v Speaker 2>What prompted you to what was the straw that broke

0:04:58.721 --> 0:05:00.481
<v Speaker 2>the camel's back In terms of right, we're going to

0:05:00.481 --> 0:05:02.881
<v Speaker 2>write an open letter and sign it and present it.

0:05:05.121 --> 0:05:08.041
<v Speaker 3>Concerns in the letter we've been expressing for some time.

0:05:08.801 --> 0:05:11.361
<v Speaker 3>But I think we also see the opportunity of the

0:05:11.401 --> 0:05:15.921
<v Speaker 3>Prime Minister's visit to put the relationship with China back

0:05:15.961 --> 0:05:18.321
<v Speaker 3>on a better footing than it's been for the last

0:05:18.401 --> 0:05:20.601
<v Speaker 3>eighteen months, when there's been a lot of pop shots

0:05:20.601 --> 0:05:23.921
<v Speaker 3>from New Zealand aimed at at China. And look, we

0:05:24.001 --> 0:05:26.521
<v Speaker 3>have our differences with China as a country, for sure,

0:05:27.241 --> 0:05:30.521
<v Speaker 3>but we've also got a very important relationship, and diplomacy

0:05:30.601 --> 0:05:34.001
<v Speaker 3>is about how you manage relationships. I guess our message

0:05:34.041 --> 0:05:37.521
<v Speaker 3>is that this visit is very critical and that we

0:05:37.601 --> 0:05:41.241
<v Speaker 3>would like to see the good and careful balance New

0:05:41.361 --> 0:05:44.641
<v Speaker 3>Zealand foreign policy has had for decades maintained.

0:05:45.121 --> 0:05:47.281
<v Speaker 2>Can we still be independent yet have our eyes I mean,

0:05:47.281 --> 0:05:49.201
<v Speaker 2>giving back to that point of it raised earlier. Can't

0:05:49.201 --> 0:05:51.721
<v Speaker 2>we be close to Washington without alienating Beijing.

0:05:54.481 --> 0:05:58.801
<v Speaker 3>I don't think we can carry on down the course

0:05:59.081 --> 0:06:01.921
<v Speaker 3>that the current government's on without doing damage to the

0:06:02.001 --> 0:06:06.441
<v Speaker 3>China relationship because we're seeing New Zealand sign up to

0:06:06.481 --> 0:06:10.721
<v Speaker 3>more and more military agreements with the US. I think

0:06:10.761 --> 0:06:12.841
<v Speaker 3>that that will come at a cost to US. I

0:06:12.881 --> 0:06:17.761
<v Speaker 3>would say Tai Ho on all that we need both countries.

0:06:17.801 --> 0:06:21.321
<v Speaker 3>Both are important markets, right and the US with traditionally

0:06:21.401 --> 0:06:23.961
<v Speaker 3>had more political values in common with although I must

0:06:24.001 --> 0:06:25.921
<v Speaker 3>say that's pretty much in doubt at the moment when

0:06:25.961 --> 0:06:28.081
<v Speaker 3>we see what's happening in the United States of America.

0:06:28.841 --> 0:06:30.681
<v Speaker 3>So we need to keep our head. This is a

0:06:30.841 --> 0:06:34.761
<v Speaker 3>very difficult time internationally, and New Zealand must maintain the

0:06:34.881 --> 0:06:37.161
<v Speaker 3>total freedom to make its own calls.

0:06:38.881 --> 0:06:40.401
<v Speaker 2>I mean, there would be people who listened to this

0:06:40.441 --> 0:06:43.641
<v Speaker 2>who were seeing how China conducted those exercises, yes, and

0:06:43.681 --> 0:06:46.281
<v Speaker 2>open waters and not breaching any laws. But there are

0:06:46.281 --> 0:06:49.201
<v Speaker 2>many people would say, well, that's China with an active

0:06:49.241 --> 0:06:53.921
<v Speaker 2>intimidation and would respond to your letter in saying that

0:06:54.241 --> 0:06:57.201
<v Speaker 2>it smacks of appeasement. What's what do you reckon?

0:06:58.081 --> 0:07:00.201
<v Speaker 3>Oh, I didn't think anyone would think that. I think

0:07:00.521 --> 0:07:02.601
<v Speaker 3>you know, in the New Zealand community, there's a lot

0:07:02.641 --> 0:07:05.041
<v Speaker 3>of people who have been to China, have done business

0:07:05.241 --> 0:07:08.081
<v Speaker 3>with China, and who are concerned. If you've got a

0:07:08.081 --> 0:07:11.361
<v Speaker 3>lot of exposure to China economically as a kiwi exporter

0:07:12.401 --> 0:07:16.761
<v Speaker 3>or tourism provider. You have concerns right now, and I

0:07:16.801 --> 0:07:21.321
<v Speaker 3>think our expression of concern for wanting a more balanced

0:07:21.321 --> 0:07:24.481
<v Speaker 3>foreign policy to reassert itself will find quite an echo

0:07:24.481 --> 0:07:25.201
<v Speaker 3>in New Zealand.

0:07:25.961 --> 0:07:30.641
<v Speaker 2>Are you worried about potential changes in China's attitude towards

0:07:30.921 --> 0:07:33.321
<v Speaker 2>peace and aggression? I mean, with the world feels a

0:07:33.361 --> 0:07:35.801
<v Speaker 2>little bit more tumultuous right now, doesn't it. We've got Ukraine,

0:07:35.801 --> 0:07:38.081
<v Speaker 2>We've seen what's going on in the Middle East, China's

0:07:38.081 --> 0:07:41.481
<v Speaker 2>always tilting towards Taiwan. Are you concerned about a change

0:07:41.481 --> 0:07:43.721
<v Speaker 2>in attitude from China.

0:07:44.081 --> 0:07:47.201
<v Speaker 3>I think we need to continue to engage China, which

0:07:47.241 --> 0:07:52.201
<v Speaker 3>can play an important role in also helping resolve some

0:07:52.241 --> 0:07:55.321
<v Speaker 3>of the world's conflicts. Look for example, at the moment

0:07:55.441 --> 0:07:59.521
<v Speaker 3>with the all the issues around Iran. Now China does

0:07:59.641 --> 0:08:03.361
<v Speaker 3>keep a strategic relationship with Iran, so you know you

0:08:03.521 --> 0:08:06.841
<v Speaker 3>need China as a player. China actually has played a

0:08:06.921 --> 0:08:11.721
<v Speaker 3>role in recent times in a rapproshmon of some kind

0:08:11.761 --> 0:08:14.761
<v Speaker 3>between Saudi Arabia and Iran. So it can be a

0:08:14.761 --> 0:08:18.881
<v Speaker 3>player and it needs to be brought into these conversations

0:08:19.601 --> 0:08:21.561
<v Speaker 3>to try in the search for pieces it.

0:08:21.521 --> 0:08:23.281
<v Speaker 2>Were, Do you think that that's going to be part

0:08:23.321 --> 0:08:26.721
<v Speaker 2>of what Luxein's aiming for and has chats with the Chinese.

0:08:27.641 --> 0:08:31.961
<v Speaker 3>Well, if I sort of put myself in Luclean's position

0:08:32.081 --> 0:08:35.241
<v Speaker 3>and think of what would be on my radar going

0:08:35.281 --> 0:08:37.681
<v Speaker 3>into that meeting, I would be very interested to know

0:08:37.761 --> 0:08:41.721
<v Speaker 3>what the Chinese are thinking about how to pull the

0:08:41.721 --> 0:08:46.921
<v Speaker 3>Middle East back from the brink of outright war. Their

0:08:47.001 --> 0:08:49.481
<v Speaker 3>views would be very important. You know, what cards can

0:08:49.521 --> 0:08:51.841
<v Speaker 3>they play? What are they saying to the Saudis, What

0:08:51.921 --> 0:08:54.801
<v Speaker 3>are they saying to the Iranians? What are they saying

0:08:54.841 --> 0:08:58.841
<v Speaker 3>to the US? Because China is a major power, it

0:08:58.881 --> 0:09:01.601
<v Speaker 3>does have voice, it does have influence. Now better that

0:09:01.641 --> 0:09:02.521
<v Speaker 3>it's used for good.

0:09:03.441 --> 0:09:05.881
<v Speaker 2>Actually, just when you went over trips, did you ever

0:09:06.601 --> 0:09:09.401
<v Speaker 2>would you have ever accepted advice from former prime ministers

0:09:09.441 --> 0:09:12.441
<v Speaker 2>on how to approach the relationship with the country.

0:09:12.201 --> 0:09:15.201
<v Speaker 3>Or what I would have been very interested. I would

0:09:15.241 --> 0:09:17.841
<v Speaker 3>have been very interested in their advice. I mean, take,

0:09:18.241 --> 0:09:22.121
<v Speaker 3>for example, Jim Bolger, who had a solid seven years

0:09:22.121 --> 0:09:27.961
<v Speaker 3>in the job and had visited China, you know, kind

0:09:27.961 --> 0:09:30.601
<v Speaker 3>of rathered up the same frequency as I did. Jenny

0:09:30.601 --> 0:09:34.161
<v Speaker 3>Shipley also had a good relationship with China. I've kept

0:09:34.161 --> 0:09:36.401
<v Speaker 3>in touch with John Key over the years. He's done

0:09:36.441 --> 0:09:39.281
<v Speaker 3>his best to position New Zealand will with China. And

0:09:39.601 --> 0:09:43.321
<v Speaker 3>I'm sure Chris lux And listens to John, so I

0:09:43.361 --> 0:09:47.121
<v Speaker 3>think you know we can be useful. We do, you know,

0:09:47.281 --> 0:09:50.561
<v Speaker 3>have perspectives. We have done the hard yards, and certainly

0:09:52.281 --> 0:09:55.481
<v Speaker 3>I do note that Chris Luxon didn't just dismiss our

0:09:55.521 --> 0:09:59.401
<v Speaker 3>comments out of hand, because he does know that some

0:09:59.441 --> 0:10:01.641
<v Speaker 3>of us have been around done the hard yards.

0:10:01.881 --> 0:10:04.521
<v Speaker 2>And I guess the conversations you're talking about with Iran

0:10:04.521 --> 0:10:06.961
<v Speaker 2>in the middle eas are those opportunities where you're not

0:10:06.961 --> 0:10:10.161
<v Speaker 2>actually focused on New Zealand or China when you discuss

0:10:10.401 --> 0:10:14.521
<v Speaker 2>between leaders, how can we solve this other problem? Are

0:10:13.601 --> 0:10:20.001
<v Speaker 2>those are those particularly strong opportunities to build relationships.

0:10:19.641 --> 0:10:24.121
<v Speaker 3>Very strong opportunities to get a readout from major player

0:10:24.761 --> 0:10:26.841
<v Speaker 3>as to what they think is happening and to offer

0:10:26.841 --> 0:10:30.121
<v Speaker 3>a New Zealand perspective. It's the same with all the

0:10:30.241 --> 0:10:34.121
<v Speaker 3>major bilaterals. You have the Prime ministers going on to

0:10:34.161 --> 0:10:37.121
<v Speaker 3>meet a lot of Western leaders at the NATO summit. Again,

0:10:37.201 --> 0:10:40.921
<v Speaker 3>that's a major opportunity to touch base with many many

0:10:41.001 --> 0:10:44.561
<v Speaker 3>leaders and put a New Zealand's stake in the ground,

0:10:44.561 --> 0:10:47.921
<v Speaker 3>as it were, as to what our hopes are not.

0:10:47.841 --> 0:10:49.641
<v Speaker 2>Wanting to end on too trivilla note, But did you

0:10:49.681 --> 0:10:52.881
<v Speaker 2>tune in and check out the Trumpe's parade.

0:10:53.241 --> 0:10:56.041
<v Speaker 3>I haven't had a chance yet. I've been looking at

0:10:56.041 --> 0:10:59.481
<v Speaker 3>some of the social media would I've been writing say

0:10:59.481 --> 0:11:01.401
<v Speaker 3>it was a bit of a damp squib. I saw

0:11:01.441 --> 0:11:03.001
<v Speaker 3>a little bit of footage where there seem to be

0:11:03.001 --> 0:11:05.481
<v Speaker 3>a lot of empty seats along the way. Of course,

0:11:05.481 --> 0:11:09.721
<v Speaker 3>these huge crowds with the no King parades and a

0:11:09.761 --> 0:11:12.361
<v Speaker 3>lot of cities across the state. Look, look, this is

0:11:12.401 --> 0:11:15.121
<v Speaker 3>a sadly very divided country and no one wants to

0:11:15.121 --> 0:11:18.601
<v Speaker 3>see the US like this. I'm devastated by the the

0:11:18.761 --> 0:11:23.961
<v Speaker 3>killings of the Democrat legislators just just horrible. The US

0:11:23.961 --> 0:11:25.961
<v Speaker 3>needs to pull itself back from the brink. This is

0:11:26.001 --> 0:11:26.721
<v Speaker 3>not the way to go.

0:11:27.001 --> 0:11:30.561
<v Speaker 2>Thanks Helen, I really appreciate your time this afternoon. Thanks

0:11:30.641 --> 0:11:32.201
<v Speaker 2>very much. Yeah byye.

0:11:32.881 --> 0:11:35.641
<v Speaker 1>For more from the weekend collective, listen live to news

0:11:35.681 --> 0:11:38.801
<v Speaker 1>Talks there'd be weekends from three pm, or follow the

0:11:38.801 --> 0:11:40.361
<v Speaker 1>podcast on iHeartRadio.