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Speaker 1: Welcome to the Business of Tech powered by two Degrees Business.

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Speaker 1: I'm Peter Griffin from Business Desk and on this week's episode,

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Speaker 1: we're surveying the science and innovation landscape from the other

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Speaker 1: side of the political isle. Labour MP for christ Church

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Speaker 1: East Reuben Davidson has been in Parliament since late in

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Speaker 1: twenty twenty three, and a few months ago was given

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Speaker 1: a rather attractive and important collection of shadow portfolios, including Science,

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Speaker 1: Technology and Innovation and Broadcasting, Media and a Creative Economy.

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Speaker 1: As you'd expect, Davidson isn't very impressed with the Coalition

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Speaker 1: government's approach in these policy areas, particularly in what Labour

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Speaker 1: sees as destructive and indiscriminate cuts in funding for science

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Speaker 1: and innovation. Labour's also starting to formulate some ideas on

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Speaker 1: artificial intelligence policy. It held in AI summit recently in

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Speaker 1: Wellington to gather ideas on how to regulate AI and

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Speaker 1: promote its use among businesses, with the Labor Party leader

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Speaker 1: Chris Hopkins opening that forum. Ruben Davidson also has written

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Speaker 1: a private member's bill, which so far hasn't been selected

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Speaker 1: for introduction into Parliament, but which would impose a small

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Speaker 1: video on demand levy basically a digital tax on the

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Speaker 1: big foreign streaming platforms like Netflix, Amazon Prime Video, Disney

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Speaker 1: Plus and Apple TV. The revenue generated from that levy

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Speaker 1: on those platform providers, which Davidson points out pay very little,

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Speaker 1: if any local tax, would go into a local content

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Speaker 1: fund to help the local production industry, which is where

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Speaker 1: Davidson has spent most of his career as a TV

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Speaker 1: producer of shows including What Now. So a lot of

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Speaker 1: groundcovered in this interview with Ruben Davidson, who, let's face it,

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Speaker 1: by the end of next year, could be the man

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Speaker 1: in charge of science, tech and broadcasting policy.

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Speaker 2: Here's the interview.

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Speaker 1: Rubin Davidson. Welcome to the business of tech. How are

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Speaker 1: you doing.

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Speaker 2: I'm doing very well. Thank you for having me, Thank you.

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Speaker 1: For the invitation, pleasure to have you on and great

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Speaker 1: to connect. You were elected to Parliament in October twenty

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Speaker 1: twenty three, succeeding Poto Williams. Bit of a bittersweet I

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Speaker 1: guess victory for you. That was a pretty bad election

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Speaker 1: for labor. You were one of the only new I

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Speaker 1: think Labor MPs to come in in that cohort.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, it was.

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Speaker 3: It was not the result that we had hoped for

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Speaker 3: and there were two of us that came in, so

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Speaker 3: myself and christ your cheest and Kushla Tonguaden Manuel in

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Speaker 3: koradafty one of the Maori seats, the only Maori seat

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Speaker 3: that we won in the North Island. So yeah, we've

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Speaker 3: given ourselves the title of head boy and head girl.

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Speaker 1: Good on you. You you were born in christ Church, you

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Speaker 1: live in I think North New Brighton at the moment. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: and so tell us a little bit for listeners who

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Speaker 1: aren't so familiar with your background, your pathway into politics,

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Speaker 1: but also your professional career, what you were doing beforehand.

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Speaker 3: Yeah sure, so, I mean my background is in broadcasting

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Speaker 3: and media. So when I finished school, did a degree

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Speaker 3: a Bachelor of Broadcasting Communications and men started working for

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Speaker 3: TV inzt Up in Auckland, so initially as an intern,

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Speaker 3: and that was back in the days when there was

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Speaker 3: a lot of internal production within TV inst so a

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Speaker 3: really good opportunity to work across a number of shows,

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Speaker 3: a number of very different shows in fact, anything from

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Speaker 3: Maggie's Garden Show to Big Brother to Music Week to Havoc,

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Speaker 3: so a real mixed bag and at times working on

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Speaker 3: two shows at the same time, two very different shows

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Speaker 3: at the same time, so a great a great time

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Speaker 3: to work in television, a real contrast to the environment

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Speaker 3: that media is operating in now. And then I left

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Speaker 3: TVNZ after about four and a half five years and

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Speaker 3: came back to christ Church, which is my hometown, and

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Speaker 3: took up a job working for White Bait Media as

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Speaker 3: an associate producer on What Now. And that was a

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Speaker 3: great opportunity to really join together. At that point in time,

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Speaker 3: pretty new tech which allowed us to broadcast from just

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Speaker 3: about anywhere with two people and a satellite dish and

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Speaker 3: a crew of three.

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Speaker 2: We'd now be able to do better with.

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Speaker 3: Our phone, but at the time it was really exciting

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Speaker 3: to be able to meet local people, local children, local

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Speaker 3: small towns around New Zealand into mainstream media and onto

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Speaker 3: What Now, and I spent the next eighteen years at

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Speaker 3: White Bait. I went on to produce Now and then

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Speaker 3: I went into content development, so developing ideas, pitching them

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Speaker 3: up to networks, getting them funded and then producing them ultimately,

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Speaker 3: so anything from the Adam and Eve Show through to

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Speaker 3: f Animals, and when I finished up, the last show

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Speaker 3: I worked on was Brainbusters, so essentially the Chase for kids.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, and in about twenty nineteen you served on the

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Speaker 1: community board down there. So what triggered your desire to

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Speaker 1: get into politics.

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Speaker 2: Yeah.

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Speaker 3: Look, I mean I've probably always been a relatively politically

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Speaker 3: active person, and I would encourage others to be the same.

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Speaker 3: But I mean at high school, I was on school

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Speaker 3: board of trustees, so I was quite politically active at

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Speaker 3: that point in time. That was motivated by the fact

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Speaker 3: that teachers were allowed to smoke at school, but students weren't.

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Speaker 3: I wasn't a smoker, but I thought that seemed pretty unfair.

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Speaker 3: So eventually no one was allowed to smoke at school,

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Speaker 3: which maybe really popular with the teachers. But I went

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Speaker 3: on to you just volunteer over the years for different

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Speaker 3: campaigns or you know, over different elections, and then I

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Speaker 3: started to get more formally involved and got elected into

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Speaker 3: local bodies. So being on a community board and then

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Speaker 3: becoming the chair of a community board there was a really,

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Speaker 3: really good opportunity to serve a community that I loved

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Speaker 3: being part of, but also to get a really good

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Speaker 3: grounding and understanding of the difference between management, which is

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Speaker 3: what I've done a lot in television and governance.

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Speaker 2: Which is what the community board role ultimately was.

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Speaker 3: And I also had had the opportunity from that governance

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Speaker 3: perspective to also sit on the Sparta Board and that

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Speaker 3: was a really, really good chance to engage with fellow

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Speaker 3: practitioners in the industry but also with different levels of

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Speaker 3: government industry around what the needs were at a time

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Speaker 3: when we could see that there was trouble on the

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Speaker 3: horizon and ultimately that's the trouble that's hit us now

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Speaker 3: in the media space.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, and we will get into that because you do.

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Speaker 1: You sort of have the dream collection of portfolios. From

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Speaker 1: my perspective, You've got science, technology and innovation as well

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Speaker 1: as broadcasting, media and the creative economy. So huge synergies

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Speaker 1: between all of those. Obviously, on the broadcasting media, creative

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Speaker 1: economy stuff, you've got a huge depth of knowledge there.

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Speaker 1: You totally understand the TV production industry, which is a

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Speaker 1: huge flux at the moment. How do you feel about

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Speaker 1: taking on that science innovation We've seen Judith Collins, Shane Retti,

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Speaker 1: David Clark from Labor, Megan Woods was in that role

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Speaker 1: for a while. Some of them have had some science background,

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Speaker 1: some of them haven't. Do you need it for a

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Speaker 1: portfolio like Science and Innovation, you know.

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Speaker 3: It's it's an enormous privilege and I'm hugely, hugely excited

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Speaker 3: by the by the by both portfolios, but by all

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Speaker 3: elements of each of them as well. I'm pleased to

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Speaker 3: say that you don't have to be a scientist to

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Speaker 3: hold the Science portfolio. And I will be the first

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Speaker 3: person to tell you I'm definitely not a scientist, but

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Speaker 3: you do have to understand science and ultimately to have

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Speaker 3: and I do an enormous amount of respect for those

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Speaker 3: people who work in that sector and the importance and

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Speaker 3: the value of the work that they do in the

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Speaker 3: sciences and from the field trips I've had so far,

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Speaker 3: the conversations and engagement that I've had with with our

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Speaker 3: science community so far, I'm absolutely amazed and inspired by

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Speaker 3: the work that they're doing and the is you know.

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Speaker 2: The value that that work has.

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Speaker 3: For yes, financially, but also from an environmental and from

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Speaker 3: a community perspective. It's amazing to see the kind of Yeah,

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Speaker 3: the kind of work that's taking place in that space

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Speaker 3: of New Zealand or has.

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Speaker 1: Been Yeah, and through that lends I guess your predecessor

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Speaker 1: in that sort of portfolio. Doctor Deborah Russell was quite

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Speaker 1: critical in December off the cuts to the Milestone fund,

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Speaker 1: taking humanities and social science, you know, out of that

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Speaker 1: funding bucket. Labor's been quite critical of the cuts to

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Speaker 1: scientists in the in the public sector. You know, around

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Speaker 1: about five hundred jobs between people going from Callahan University

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Speaker 1: job CRI job, so Labour's been quite vocal about that.

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Speaker 1: But you know, reflecting on the last few years of

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Speaker 1: Labour's approach to science and innovation, you know, my take

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Speaker 1: on it would be that I think Labor left it

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Speaker 1: way too late in its second term in government to

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Speaker 1: really get the ball rolling on some of its changes

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Speaker 1: in this space. You had the Green Paper, the Future Pathways,

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Speaker 1: you know, solid piece of work, but never came to

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Speaker 1: fruition before the election and it was sort of dismantled

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Speaker 1: by the you know, the Coalition government. You had the

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Speaker 1: Industry Transformation Plan, you had Agritech, Digital Advanced Manufacturing. Some

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Speaker 1: really good work went into all of that, but again,

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Speaker 1: because it was left late in the sort of second term,

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Speaker 1: it was very easy for National to come in and

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Speaker 1: say no, we're just going to do away with that

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Speaker 1: as well. Do you think that on reflection, was a

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Speaker 1: real problem for your predecessors that they had some big ideas,

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Speaker 1: they saw the need to change, but they left it

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Speaker 1: a little bit too late.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, there's a couple couple of things there, really, I guess.

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Speaker 3: I mean, I wasn't there in that in that previous term,

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Speaker 3: our most recent term and government. But I think we're

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Speaker 3: all aware that there were a number of things that

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Speaker 3: no one must expect to happen, and that to a

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Speaker 3: large extent made it really difficult to do some of

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Speaker 3: the things that would have been good and that that

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Speaker 3: had been desired to happen, and that certainly change in

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Speaker 3: this space in our science sector was one of those things.

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Speaker 2: But I think, on balance, I'm very.

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Speaker 3: Proud of the legacy that that government has and at

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Speaker 3: the response to COVID that that we rolled out, I

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Speaker 3: think that was remarkable. I think what we're what we've

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Speaker 3: seen in this current government's approach, and I share, you know,

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Speaker 3: the previous spokesperson, Debrah's sentiments on this. We've seen a

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Speaker 3: very destabilizing approach and we're in the media sector, we

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Speaker 3: can see that there was a crisis that we were

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Speaker 3: heading toward. It feels very much to me in the

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Speaker 3: science sector that this is a this is a crisis

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Speaker 3: that's been created so and I'm not suggesting necessary that

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Speaker 3: that's intentional, but if it's unintentional, then that doesn't also

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Speaker 3: make it any better.

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Speaker 2: I think there's.

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Speaker 3: Been a huge level of uncertainty that's been created through

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Speaker 3: the change and the cuts, and I think that one

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Speaker 3: of the things that struck me from my first visit

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Speaker 3: with the new portfolio was that science and our science

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Speaker 3: community don't work to the electoral cycle. There's a long,

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Speaker 3: long valuable projects and when you see a pendulum swing

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Speaker 3: as extreme as the one that we've seen in this

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Speaker 3: first eighteen months of this government, and the uncertainty that

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Speaker 3: that's created in the science sector, it's immensely destabilizing to

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Speaker 3: projects underway, but also to the workforce overall. That's too

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Speaker 3: people who are in New Zealand, internationals in New Zealand

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Speaker 3: assisting with research. It's two New Zealand residents who are

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Speaker 3: part of that science community and just aren't sure anymore

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Speaker 3: whether there's viable work for them. And it also has

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Speaker 3: a really detrimental effect to people who are considering science

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Speaker 3: as a future career and as a future opportunity and

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Speaker 3: some of the great and incredibly valuable jobs that exist

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Speaker 3: in that science sector really lose the viability that they

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Speaker 3: had because so much uncertainty is created.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, it's devastating for my colleagues in the science sector

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Speaker 1: who I talked to, you know, considering literally going for

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Speaker 1: greener pastures. Although the US has its own problems with

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Speaker 1: its science secret at the moment with the Doge knife

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Speaker 1: being wielded through there. So this is by no means

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Speaker 1: a New Zealand thing. But the headcount has gone down,

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Speaker 1: budgets have been in science. But you did recognize labor,

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Speaker 1: you know, years ago that change, structural change needed to

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Speaker 1: happen to how we do science and innovation. Our R

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Speaker 1: and D spend isn't increasing the way it should be.

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Speaker 1: Our Crown Research Institute weren't really working effectively together. Our

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Speaker 1: innovation system was fragmented and siloed. We kept hearing this

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Speaker 1: decade after decade, so change needed to happen. We've now

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Speaker 1: had Sir Peter Gluckman's report back the Science Sector Advisory Group.

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Speaker 1: The government has come back and said what it plans

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Speaker 1: to do. Where has that landed for you? Did it

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Speaker 1: reflect some of the things that labor wanted to see happen,

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Speaker 1: and which were outlined in that earlier sort of green paper.

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Speaker 2: Yeah. Look, I think I think the biggest thing is that.

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Speaker 3: We had identified that then that there was a need

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Speaker 3: for change in the sector and that there could be

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Speaker 3: benefit from having a look at the structure of you

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Speaker 3: the CRIS and that move to the pro model that

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Speaker 3: has transpired isn't necessarily all bad, but I think it's

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Speaker 3: the approach that for me is the thing that has

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Speaker 3: been the most damaging. So it's that lack of engagement,

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Speaker 3: lack of certainty, lack of in some case, as I

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Speaker 3: would suggest, respect of some really really crucial building blocks

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Speaker 3: of our science community. And as a result, it's very

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Speaker 3: hard to engage with people and bring them back on

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Speaker 3: board when the process has set out as badly as

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Speaker 3: this one has.

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Speaker 1: So there's a loss of trust in the mechanism really

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Speaker 1: in your view, that scientists have their views haven't been

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Speaker 1: listened to.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, that's certainly a sense that I get, and that

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Speaker 3: the change hasn't been well communicated or rational, and that

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Speaker 3: it's felt like rolling change rather than setting out a

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Speaker 3: picture of what the end result is and having the

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Speaker 3: conversations to bring people with you. It's felt very much

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Speaker 3: like something that's happening to our science community.

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Speaker 1: Not with yeah and undepending it all. No matter what

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Speaker 1: we do, how we shift around a deck chairs, whether

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Speaker 1: we create a new public research organization which is the

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Speaker 1: plan around advanced technologies, or merge the other ones, we're

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Speaker 1: still with a sinking lead on funding under this government.

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Speaker 1: As Debora Russell said, New Zealand only spends half the

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Speaker 1: OECD average on science research and development. Until we tackle

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Speaker 1: that fundamental funding problem, we're really going to be struggling

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Speaker 1: to do anything with infrastructure or the skills development that

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Speaker 1: we need for a decent innovation system.

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Speaker 2: Yeah. Yeah, and I think you know she's right, definitely.

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Speaker 1: Yeah. So I guess, you know, we haven't really heard

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Speaker 1: much yet, and it's normal, I guess early in the

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Speaker 1: cycle about you know, what Labor is planning to do.

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Speaker 1: I haven't seen much on the website other than the

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Speaker 1: sort of pressure press releases criticizing some of the government's moves.

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Speaker 1: But is there any central sort of theme to what

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Speaker 1: you're thinking around the science and innovation portfolio emerging so far?

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Speaker 2: Yeah?

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Speaker 3: Look, I mean to be fair, I've primarily in my

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Speaker 3: time in the spokesperson role. So far, it's really been

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Speaker 3: getting up to speed with what the current changes are

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Speaker 3: and the impacts those are having. So for me, that's

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Speaker 3: that's been a large part of the focus of the

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Speaker 3: last few weeks in the role has just been to go, Okay,

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Speaker 3: where is all of this landing, and who's been taken

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Speaker 3: on the journey and who's been left behind. I think

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Speaker 3: ultimately the continuous piece of feedback, or the consistent piece

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Speaker 3: of feedback I'm getting, is that we do need to

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Speaker 3: be doing more in this space.

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Speaker 2: It leads to.

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Speaker 3: Huge economic games for New Zealand. It creates amazing jobs

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Speaker 3: that bring people to the country but also provide fantastic

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Speaker 3: careers for local people in the sector, and so we

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Speaker 3: need to be looking at what more can we be

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Speaker 3: doing to support this sector into the future, rather than

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Speaker 3: the current approach which has not been doing that.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, A sort of sub category within science is artificial intelligence.

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Speaker 1: You recently held an AI summit, which unfortunately I wasn't

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Speaker 1: able to get to. Chris Hipkins sort of spoke at that.

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Speaker 1: You had a number of experts giving their views on AI.

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Speaker 1: What really shook out from that? What ideas did you

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Speaker 1: get from that to shape Labour's policy on AI.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, look, it was it was for us.

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Speaker 3: It was an opportunity to put the right people in

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Speaker 3: the room and to have a conversation that a number

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Speaker 3: of people myself included, just don't think has happened yet

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Speaker 3: in New Zealand. And so that one for us was

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Speaker 3: about Chris. Chris gave a really good opening address. Francis

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Speaker 3: Valentine also gave a really good scene set for the

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Speaker 3: room about where you know, where the world is at

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Speaker 3: and some New Zealand context around that. And we also

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Speaker 3: had a really good piece up top from David Torbert

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Speaker 3: who Torbert Mills, who had done a survey of those

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Speaker 3: in the room but also has research into wider perspectives

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Speaker 3: and opinions on artificial intelligence in the wider New Zealand populace.

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Speaker 3: So that gave us a really good scene set up

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Speaker 3: top before we stepped into two panels across the afternoon

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Speaker 3: to explore in the first panel, where have we gotten

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Speaker 3: up to and in the second panel, where do we

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Speaker 3: go now? It's probably the simplest, simplest single line summaries

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Speaker 3: for each of those, and the representation on those panels

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Speaker 3: was for me really important because what we wanted to

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Speaker 3: make sure was that we had a very good cross

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Speaker 3: section of opinion and perspectives.

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Speaker 2: So we needed to have.

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Speaker 3: Some industry there, some tech industry who are using AI,

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Speaker 3: but we also wanted to have strong academic perspective.

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Speaker 2: We wanted to have the worker's voice there.

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Speaker 3: There's some very real considerations for workers and workforce around

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Speaker 3: the impacts of AI policy perspectives, access and equity. We

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Speaker 3: had some very strong proponents and also data sovereignty, which

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Speaker 3: has some unique challenges and opportunities in the New Zealand context.

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Speaker 3: So really the that was the composition of the afternoon.

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Speaker 3: We had a number of other It was very well

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Speaker 3: attended and we did have your notice on those panels.

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Speaker 3: There's no big tech presence on those panels, but we

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Speaker 3: did have a number of representatives in the room and

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Speaker 3: around the conversations as well. So, I mean, the main

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Speaker 3: things that came out of the session across the afternoon

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Speaker 3: was the need for education and upskilling on the subject

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Speaker 3: of artificial intelligence across all communities. Definitely a strong conversation

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Speaker 3: and steering from the room towards regulatory frameworks, so looking

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Speaker 3: at what are the international examples that are really working

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Speaker 3: well and which parts of those are going to perform

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Speaker 3: and be needed in the New Zealand context. And specific

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Speaker 3: to that, really the tail Maldi perspective around how we

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Speaker 3: te kung into artificial intelligence and the bigger QUI around

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Speaker 3: sovereign AI for New Zealand.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, and that last one is particularly topical at the moment.

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Speaker 1: You talked about big tech not being on the panel

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Speaker 1: but being in the room, and there definitely is a

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Speaker 1: discussion burning around the world at the moment about our reliance,

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Speaker 1: and some would say over reliance in this country on

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Speaker 1: the big tech tech stack. We've built our government systems

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Speaker 1: and many of our businesses on us technology and now

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Speaker 1: have someone in the White House who on a whim

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Speaker 1: could sort of change the rules of the game around

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Speaker 1: technology that we can access. So this is something that

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Speaker 1: no government really in recent use, has given much thought to.

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Speaker 1: Is that something that's emerging in labor as a potential

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Speaker 1: policy platform around developing our own sovereign technology to run

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Speaker 1: critical services like government.

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Speaker 3: I think it will be irresponsible for any government or

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Speaker 3: party that wants to be the next government in twenty

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Speaker 3: twenty six to not have a very clear plan around

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Speaker 3: who and how AI should be enabled and managed with

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Speaker 3: them within New Zealand beyond well now and into twenty

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Speaker 3: twenty six. So I think, yeah, the sort of sit

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Speaker 3: back and wait and see approach won't work.

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Speaker 2: The potential for AI to.

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Speaker 3: Have an incredibly positive impact for New Zealand and New

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Speaker 3: Zealanders is very real, but it also has the potential

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Speaker 3: if we don't do it well, to actually create you know,

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Speaker 3: very very deep division between those who have access to

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Speaker 3: AI and those who don't. So we do need to

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Speaker 3: be very proactive in that space. I don't think the

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Speaker 3: current approach or the current the government's current approach has

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Speaker 3: been proactive enough. And I think there's a real risk if, if,

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Speaker 3: if we don't really engage with that, that we simply

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Speaker 3: become a market for for you know, super big foreign

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Speaker 3: AI companies, and I think that would be that's that's

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Speaker 3: not a direction that New Zealand would want to heed.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, and arguably we're already there, so unpacking that or

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Speaker 1: unpicking it is going to be challenging. But in terms

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Speaker 1: of the the policy settings, we don't have dedicated AI

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Speaker 1: regulation in New Zealand yet. You know, Judith Colin said

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Speaker 1: she wanted a proportional, risk based and light touch approach

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Speaker 1: to regulating AI. So we've got the Privacy Act, we've

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Speaker 1: got other bits of legislation. Do you think that's been

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Speaker 1: a pragmatic approach. We've seen obviously the EU with the

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Speaker 1: AI Act going really big on legislation, Australia doing its

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Speaker 1: own version of that. We've sort of sat on the sidelines,

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Speaker 1: I guess to see what happens. Has that turned out

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Speaker 1: to be a smart move? Do you think?

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Speaker 2: I think I think it has a level of risk and.

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Speaker 3: How smart it has been remains to be seen, But

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Speaker 3: I think I mean there.

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Speaker 2: Are some.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, there's there's some potential positives that can come out

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Speaker 3: of the weight and see approach. But it's about getting

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Speaker 3: that balance right between being a fast follower in whether

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Speaker 3: you're a fast enough follower, but also doing what New

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Speaker 3: Zealand's done really well on a number of occasions in

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Speaker 3: the past where we actually take the lead on something.

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Speaker 3: And I think that the risk with sitting the sort

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Speaker 3: of weight and see pragmatic approach is that you can

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Speaker 3: get left behind. It can be too it can become

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Speaker 3: too late.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, and you know all the surveys, you'll have seen

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Speaker 1: them as much as I have from the AI forum,

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Speaker 1: and that sort of suggests that we're a little bit

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Speaker 1: behind the ball and our adoption of AI. So getting

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Speaker 1: that balance right is really important. The skills issue and

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Speaker 1: the disruption to the workforce that potentially is coming. You know,

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Speaker 1: I'm talking to software development companies that are seeing massive

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Speaker 1: efficiencies and how coding is done, which is great for

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Speaker 1: their customers, great for New Zealand businesses and their productivity,

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Speaker 1: but it means that as an entry level software developer,

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Speaker 1: you're not doing the sort of grunt work learning to

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Speaker 1: code type roles that would have occupied the first year

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Speaker 1: or two of your career. So what are we going

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Speaker 1: to do with those graduates? So I guess, and this

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Speaker 1: is something that National hasn't really addressed to any extent.

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Speaker 1: Labor at least had the Industry Transformation Plan, which did

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Speaker 1: a lot of work around digital skills. To what extent

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Speaker 1: does this need to be government sort of driven or

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Speaker 1: should this be industry and tertiary sector driven?

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Speaker 3: Yeah, Look, I think the government has a role to

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Speaker 3: play in this space. What we're seeing is, you know,

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Speaker 3: potential mass disruption to some parts of the workforce, and

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Speaker 3: so what we need to have there is a plan

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Speaker 3: for redeployment of those people into new areas, but also

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Speaker 3: for people to be able to transition across into new industry.

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Speaker 3: And so that's where we need to be looking at

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Speaker 3: things like micro credentials, at people being able to train

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Speaker 3: into new jobs that may come into an existent come

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Speaker 3: into existence with the uptake or introduction of AI into

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Speaker 3: stecters or areas that they've previously worked.

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Speaker 2: And I mean one of the things that.

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Speaker 3: And you know, you give the example of coding one

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Speaker 3: of the other areas that we see AIS is that

439
00:27:48,840 --> 00:27:51,600
Speaker 3: it's not necessarily coming in at the super entry level,

440
00:27:51,840 --> 00:27:53,760
Speaker 3: and it's certainly not coming in at the high end.

441
00:27:54,119 --> 00:27:57,000
Speaker 3: But if it's eroding that workforce or that part of

442
00:27:57,040 --> 00:28:00,600
Speaker 3: the workforce in any sector or industry that is carrying

443
00:28:00,600 --> 00:28:04,960
Speaker 3: out the kind of mid level roles, then how do

444
00:28:05,040 --> 00:28:07,920
Speaker 3: the new intake grow into the more senior roles.

445
00:28:07,920 --> 00:28:09,440
Speaker 2: All of a sudden, You've you've got.

446
00:28:09,359 --> 00:28:12,960
Speaker 3: A real hole in the middle of your workforce and

447
00:28:13,040 --> 00:28:16,119
Speaker 3: career development. So we do need to have a plan

448
00:28:16,200 --> 00:28:21,440
Speaker 3: in there for how we address that, and I think

449
00:28:21,480 --> 00:28:24,280
Speaker 3: that government can have a role to put some teams

450
00:28:24,320 --> 00:28:28,600
Speaker 3: and structures in place in conjunction with industry and in

451
00:28:28,640 --> 00:28:32,080
Speaker 3: condunction with the education sector. But it's not necessarily that

452
00:28:32,119 --> 00:28:34,360
Speaker 3: people will need to go and do a whole other degree,

453
00:28:34,680 --> 00:28:37,080
Speaker 3: but they might need a micro credential or some short

454
00:28:37,119 --> 00:28:42,320
Speaker 3: training or some apprenticeship style training to transition them across

455
00:28:42,760 --> 00:28:46,200
Speaker 3: with transferable skills into a new role, either in the

456
00:28:46,240 --> 00:28:50,080
Speaker 3: same industry or in a parallel industry.

457
00:28:51,480 --> 00:28:54,360
Speaker 1: One thing that Labor did get across the line in

458
00:28:54,400 --> 00:28:58,960
Speaker 1: its second term was the tax subsidy for the video

459
00:28:59,040 --> 00:29:03,320
Speaker 1: game sector, which the industry had lobbied hard for was

460
00:29:03,360 --> 00:29:08,760
Speaker 1: getting huge competition from state and federal subsidies in Australia,

461
00:29:08,880 --> 00:29:11,320
Speaker 1: which was seeing people leaving New Zealand to go and

462
00:29:11,360 --> 00:29:14,560
Speaker 1: work in the industry over there. You've been meeting with

463
00:29:14,600 --> 00:29:18,360
Speaker 1: the industry recently. What's your take on how well that

464
00:29:18,480 --> 00:29:20,600
Speaker 1: is going and is that something that Labor would sort

465
00:29:20,640 --> 00:29:23,200
Speaker 1: of commit to if it was in government again.

466
00:29:23,760 --> 00:29:26,280
Speaker 3: Yeah, Look, it's my sense is that it's working very

467
00:29:26,280 --> 00:29:31,280
Speaker 3: well and that it's really coming to fruition. Now we've

468
00:29:31,360 --> 00:29:35,160
Speaker 3: seen major uplift in the value that the gaming industry

469
00:29:35,240 --> 00:29:38,760
Speaker 3: has it contributes to New Zealand. So I think it

470
00:29:38,920 --> 00:29:42,480
Speaker 3: was four hundred and something million it's now looking to

471
00:29:42,480 --> 00:29:46,000
Speaker 3: be seven hundred and something million, so that's an almost

472
00:29:46,040 --> 00:29:49,840
Speaker 3: doubling and that growth curve, there's no reason that that

473
00:29:49,880 --> 00:29:51,440
Speaker 3: growth curve won't continue.

474
00:29:51,680 --> 00:29:54,360
Speaker 2: That was a set that we knew was really I.

475
00:29:54,360 --> 00:29:56,560
Speaker 3: Mean, I wasn't in government at the time, I wasn't

476
00:29:56,560 --> 00:29:59,880
Speaker 3: an MP, but I understand that there were you know,

477
00:30:00,080 --> 00:30:04,680
Speaker 3: gaming conventions in New Zealand where Australian recruit recruiters were

478
00:30:04,680 --> 00:30:09,280
Speaker 3: coming to those conventions and literally poaching people from New

479
00:30:09,320 --> 00:30:12,080
Speaker 3: Zealand to go and work in the Australian industry. And

480
00:30:12,120 --> 00:30:17,080
Speaker 3: they were also offering New Zealand companies huge incentives, relocation

481
00:30:17,320 --> 00:30:20,160
Speaker 3: costs that find them in the building that basically do

482
00:30:20,360 --> 00:30:24,880
Speaker 3: all the heavy lifting to lift and shift really successful

483
00:30:24,920 --> 00:30:29,440
Speaker 3: gaming studios from New Zealand into various parts of Australia

484
00:30:29,480 --> 00:30:32,960
Speaker 3: where they could you know, keep doing what they were doing,

485
00:30:33,040 --> 00:30:36,080
Speaker 3: but with really good tax incentives and a whole lot

486
00:30:36,080 --> 00:30:38,840
Speaker 3: of assistance to make that move. So I think that

487
00:30:38,920 --> 00:30:43,800
Speaker 3: an investment like that was very nimble, very good, very

488
00:30:43,800 --> 00:30:49,720
Speaker 3: good leadership from the then Labor government. It's borne good

489
00:30:49,720 --> 00:30:51,720
Speaker 3: fruit and we're going to see the results of that,

490
00:30:51,840 --> 00:30:54,040
Speaker 3: you know, when we get the reporting through for.

491
00:30:54,040 --> 00:30:57,240
Speaker 2: Where it's at now, whether or not it continues.

492
00:30:57,280 --> 00:30:58,960
Speaker 3: I mean, I think there's a real argument to be

493
00:30:59,040 --> 00:31:04,120
Speaker 3: made when it was a forty million dollar commitment and

494
00:31:04,400 --> 00:31:06,120
Speaker 3: within that first year, I think it was.

495
00:31:06,040 --> 00:31:08,920
Speaker 2: Something like two hundred million in tax reef that came in.

496
00:31:09,080 --> 00:31:12,040
Speaker 3: So you do look at that and go, well, one

497
00:31:12,040 --> 00:31:13,920
Speaker 3: of those things is more than paying for the other.

498
00:31:14,400 --> 00:31:16,840
Speaker 2: It's a good incentive. That's an example of.

499
00:31:19,200 --> 00:31:23,600
Speaker 3: Government getting involved to support an industry that can then

500
00:31:24,080 --> 00:31:28,040
Speaker 3: do very well locally and contribute economically.

501
00:31:28,320 --> 00:31:31,400
Speaker 1: Yeah, okay, So just to finish off a few sort

502
00:31:31,440 --> 00:31:34,200
Speaker 1: of things that have come up in recent years that

503
00:31:35,600 --> 00:31:38,000
Speaker 1: have been controversial, interesting to get your take on some

504
00:31:38,080 --> 00:31:40,800
Speaker 1: of them, to see where labor is sort of heading

505
00:31:40,840 --> 00:31:44,480
Speaker 1: towards twenty twenty six, and potentially you'll be in the

506
00:31:44,520 --> 00:31:50,640
Speaker 1: Science and Innovation portfolio. The disestablishment of Callahan Innovation good idea.

507
00:31:53,440 --> 00:31:54,960
Speaker 3: No, I don't think it's been a good idea, and

508
00:31:55,000 --> 00:31:56,840
Speaker 3: I don't think it's been a good process.

509
00:31:57,240 --> 00:32:02,080
Speaker 1: Okay, what about the changes to visas to try and

510
00:32:02,120 --> 00:32:05,840
Speaker 1: get a high net worth people into New Zealand, highly

511
00:32:05,840 --> 00:32:10,360
Speaker 1: skilled people. I think they're basically envisaging that former Google

512
00:32:10,360 --> 00:32:12,800
Speaker 1: engineers are going to come here. Maybe invest some money

513
00:32:13,000 --> 00:32:17,800
Speaker 1: in a startup and put their expertise into New Zealand companies.

514
00:32:17,840 --> 00:32:18,680
Speaker 1: What do you think about that?

515
00:32:19,080 --> 00:32:20,959
Speaker 2: This is the digital nomad approach.

516
00:32:21,400 --> 00:32:23,760
Speaker 1: There's a digital nomad and then there's the sort of

517
00:32:23,800 --> 00:32:27,160
Speaker 1: the goal visa informally they call it, which is, if

518
00:32:27,160 --> 00:32:29,880
Speaker 1: you invest a certain amount of money into a business here,

519
00:32:30,880 --> 00:32:34,040
Speaker 1: you get a pathway to residency.

520
00:32:34,880 --> 00:32:36,200
Speaker 2: Yeah.

521
00:32:36,440 --> 00:32:38,680
Speaker 3: I don't actually probably know enough about that one to

522
00:32:38,680 --> 00:32:40,520
Speaker 3: give you a very well informed answer.

523
00:32:40,840 --> 00:32:45,520
Speaker 1: Yeah. The Junking of Science said that was a big

524
00:32:45,560 --> 00:32:48,760
Speaker 1: initiative that Labor had on its plate that was focused

525
00:32:48,800 --> 00:32:52,120
Speaker 1: around Wellington, quite a big one. Hundreds of millions of

526
00:32:52,360 --> 00:32:56,160
Speaker 1: investment was one of the first things that National next

527
00:32:56,240 --> 00:32:58,000
Speaker 1: when it got in. How do you feel about that?

528
00:32:58,720 --> 00:33:01,320
Speaker 3: Well, I mean, I think it's it's been disappointing to

529
00:33:01,360 --> 00:33:04,440
Speaker 3: see the number of things that have been cut with

530
00:33:04,640 --> 00:33:08,040
Speaker 3: no alternative plan or vision in place.

531
00:33:09,440 --> 00:33:13,520
Speaker 1: Yeah, and we've got to be realistic about the funding situation.

532
00:33:13,640 --> 00:33:17,080
Speaker 1: So I guess when it comes down to it, I mean,

533
00:33:17,880 --> 00:33:19,800
Speaker 1: when is Labor going to run the numbers and see

534
00:33:19,800 --> 00:33:23,520
Speaker 1: what's available for science and innovation. That's the big question.

535
00:33:23,560 --> 00:33:26,280
Speaker 1: All of these scientists who are sitting on the fence

536
00:33:26,320 --> 00:33:29,200
Speaker 1: looking around the world going do I continue my career

537
00:33:29,440 --> 00:33:32,440
Speaker 1: in Germany or the UK or somewhere else. When are

538
00:33:32,440 --> 00:33:35,760
Speaker 1: we likely to get a sign from Labor about that

539
00:33:35,920 --> 00:33:39,640
Speaker 1: much needed boost in science and innovation funding, whether it's

540
00:33:39,640 --> 00:33:42,280
Speaker 1: actually going to happen under a Labor government.

541
00:33:42,920 --> 00:33:47,480
Speaker 3: Yeah, look, I mean that's definitely something that we're looking

542
00:33:47,520 --> 00:33:51,720
Speaker 3: at across twenty twenty five leading into an election year

543
00:33:52,520 --> 00:33:57,880
Speaker 3: having some clear positions and policies across the board, But

544
00:33:58,200 --> 00:34:00,400
Speaker 3: in the science space, I wouldn't expect that to be

545
00:34:00,440 --> 00:34:02,880
Speaker 3: any different. That there needs to be a clear plan

546
00:34:02,960 --> 00:34:05,720
Speaker 3: and indication from people of what is the difference that

547
00:34:05,800 --> 00:34:09,840
Speaker 3: you get from a label led government versus the crisis

548
00:34:09,880 --> 00:34:13,520
Speaker 3: that's been created in the sector by the current coalition.

549
00:34:14,200 --> 00:34:17,920
Speaker 1: Yeah, and yeah, I guess you know that's going to

550
00:34:17,920 --> 00:34:23,480
Speaker 1: be the question philosophically, what is Labor's fundamentally different approach?

551
00:34:23,520 --> 00:34:25,759
Speaker 1: What will you keep and you know, what will how

552
00:34:25,800 --> 00:34:30,279
Speaker 1: will you carve a different a different path. So that's

553
00:34:30,280 --> 00:34:33,480
Speaker 1: still to come. But as you go around the science

554
00:34:33,480 --> 00:34:37,200
Speaker 1: and innovation sector talk to startups and they're like, what

555
00:34:37,280 --> 00:34:39,240
Speaker 1: are you seeing at the moment where you think, wow,

556
00:34:39,360 --> 00:34:44,319
Speaker 1: that is genuine opportunity for new Zealand and if we

557
00:34:44,440 --> 00:34:48,920
Speaker 1: did direct some targeted resources into this, either in funding

558
00:34:49,080 --> 00:34:53,359
Speaker 1: or in policy measures or some sort of trade support internationally,

559
00:34:53,800 --> 00:34:56,359
Speaker 1: our startups and our scientists could really thrive. Are there

560
00:34:56,360 --> 00:34:59,360
Speaker 1: any areas where you think that is something we should

561
00:34:59,400 --> 00:34:59,960
Speaker 1: focus on.

562
00:35:00,760 --> 00:35:03,000
Speaker 3: Yeah, Look, I mean I think that's probably a really good,

563
00:35:04,040 --> 00:35:08,680
Speaker 3: good opportunity just to revisit the success of the rebate

564
00:35:08,760 --> 00:35:13,120
Speaker 3: for the gaming sector, because that's exactly what's what's happened

565
00:35:13,239 --> 00:35:17,879
Speaker 3: there where where it was an industry that could see that,

566
00:35:18,080 --> 00:35:21,560
Speaker 3: you know, they literally had written their obituary because they

567
00:35:21,600 --> 00:35:25,000
Speaker 3: could see that that what was happening in Australia. The

568
00:35:25,680 --> 00:35:30,560
Speaker 3: lure of Australia and the energy and resource behind that

569
00:35:31,080 --> 00:35:35,120
Speaker 3: kind of raid on talent and New Zealand companies were

570
00:35:35,200 --> 00:35:37,759
Speaker 3: so real from Australia that they could see that that

571
00:35:37,760 --> 00:35:38,640
Speaker 3: that could spell the.

572
00:35:38,680 --> 00:35:40,160
Speaker 2: End for a New Zealand industry.

573
00:35:40,760 --> 00:35:47,200
Speaker 3: And with a you know, relatively small investment, the yield

574
00:35:47,280 --> 00:35:54,239
Speaker 3: has been rapid and strong, and I think that you

575
00:35:54,320 --> 00:35:57,799
Speaker 3: can see that that that that growth could continue. There's

576
00:35:57,800 --> 00:36:03,080
Speaker 3: no reason that further investment wouldn't continue to have the

577
00:36:03,880 --> 00:36:07,160
Speaker 3: same or greater yield from from the gaming sector.

578
00:36:07,600 --> 00:36:08,920
Speaker 2: So I think it's.

579
00:36:11,320 --> 00:36:16,399
Speaker 3: Identifying opportunities like that and moving fast enough to support them.

580
00:36:16,719 --> 00:36:22,320
Speaker 3: And that's about having a really good understanding of those sectors,

581
00:36:22,360 --> 00:36:26,880
Speaker 3: but also a good respectful relationship with those sectors. And

582
00:36:26,920 --> 00:36:31,200
Speaker 3: I think that's what we've seen eroded so quickly with

583
00:36:31,280 --> 00:36:36,480
Speaker 3: our science community has been that that conversation hasn't been.

584
00:36:38,480 --> 00:36:41,720
Speaker 2: Appropriate and that community haven't been.

585
00:36:45,280 --> 00:36:47,799
Speaker 3: Allowed the opportunity to see what the vision or the

586
00:36:47,840 --> 00:36:50,520
Speaker 3: plan is, if in fact there is one. And I

587
00:36:50,520 --> 00:36:53,719
Speaker 3: think that's what was so good about the rebate for

588
00:36:53,760 --> 00:36:58,800
Speaker 3: the gaming sector was it was a really good working

589
00:36:58,840 --> 00:37:04,960
Speaker 3: relationship between government and industry that led to some support

590
00:37:05,000 --> 00:37:08,840
Speaker 3: for industry that ultimately has had such a positive result.

591
00:37:09,960 --> 00:37:13,480
Speaker 1: Just finally, with your other hat on your Broadcasting, Media

592
00:37:13,520 --> 00:37:19,280
Speaker 1: and Creative Economy hat, we talked at the start about

593
00:37:19,400 --> 00:37:23,440
Speaker 1: the pilot state of the media goes for production companies

594
00:37:23,440 --> 00:37:27,439
Speaker 1: through to mainstream media outlets. Last year was a disastrous year,

595
00:37:27,920 --> 00:37:30,080
Speaker 1: the loss of news Hub. We've seen ends in me

596
00:37:31,239 --> 00:37:35,480
Speaker 1: have its own cutbacks this year. Interest in your take

597
00:37:35,600 --> 00:37:40,040
Speaker 1: on the Digital News Bargaining Bill. What did you think

598
00:37:40,040 --> 00:37:43,799
Speaker 1: of it? I was, obviously Willie Jackson who shepherded that

599
00:37:44,040 --> 00:37:47,520
Speaker 1: through towards the end of the second term that Labor

600
00:37:47,600 --> 00:37:51,600
Speaker 1: was in for it seems to have gone very quiet.

601
00:37:51,920 --> 00:37:54,600
Speaker 1: Do you think it's dead? Do you think literally the

602
00:37:54,640 --> 00:37:57,400
Speaker 1: negotiating with big tech is no longer viable.

603
00:37:58,280 --> 00:38:00,680
Speaker 3: Yeah, Look, I mean my sense is that dead. And

604
00:38:00,719 --> 00:38:04,320
Speaker 3: I think that's a huge shame. I think that if

605
00:38:04,800 --> 00:38:08,040
Speaker 3: the previous minister had moved faster, and if the current

606
00:38:08,080 --> 00:38:10,839
Speaker 3: minister had moved at all, it could have gotten over

607
00:38:10,880 --> 00:38:11,239
Speaker 3: the line.

608
00:38:11,680 --> 00:38:15,239
Speaker 2: I think there's very little chance of that happening now.

609
00:38:16,080 --> 00:38:17,280
Speaker 2: And I do sense.

610
00:38:17,680 --> 00:38:22,200
Speaker 3: I mean my sense from my personal opinion, but also

611
00:38:22,200 --> 00:38:25,360
Speaker 3: from the conversations I've had with you across the industry,

612
00:38:25,800 --> 00:38:29,319
Speaker 3: is that it did and would have made and the

613
00:38:29,360 --> 00:38:32,400
Speaker 3: fact that it was a potential was having a positive impact,

614
00:38:32,640 --> 00:38:36,560
Speaker 3: and if it had been moved through at the speed

615
00:38:36,560 --> 00:38:39,440
Speaker 3: it deserved, it would have had a real positive impact

616
00:38:39,680 --> 00:38:43,240
Speaker 3: across particularly across the local news media and their ability

617
00:38:43,280 --> 00:38:47,719
Speaker 3: to actually get some financial return for sharing of their

618
00:38:47,719 --> 00:38:52,239
Speaker 3: content across platforms. I think the most frustrating thing, other

619
00:38:52,280 --> 00:38:54,920
Speaker 3: than the fact that it's just been kind of mothballed

620
00:38:55,000 --> 00:38:58,520
Speaker 3: with very little communication or clarity from the minister, is

621
00:38:58,560 --> 00:38:59,520
Speaker 3: that there appears to be.

622
00:38:59,520 --> 00:39:03,840
Speaker 2: Absolutely nothing in its place. So I mean, I think.

623
00:39:03,640 --> 00:39:06,200
Speaker 3: Where what are we two hundred and eighty something days

624
00:39:06,200 --> 00:39:09,600
Speaker 3: now that that gods must been the Minister for Broadcasting

625
00:39:09,600 --> 00:39:15,160
Speaker 3: and Media. We've seen five ideas put out for people

626
00:39:15,320 --> 00:39:18,320
Speaker 3: industry to consider, with a strong caveat that none of

627
00:39:18,360 --> 00:39:22,480
Speaker 3: them have got cabinet approval or funding attached. And I

628
00:39:22,520 --> 00:39:26,240
Speaker 3: mean there's some okay ideas in there. There's probably nothing

629
00:39:26,239 --> 00:39:30,080
Speaker 3: wrong really with any of the ideas in that document,

630
00:39:30,320 --> 00:39:32,640
Speaker 3: but none of them are going to go anywhere near

631
00:39:32,719 --> 00:39:36,080
Speaker 3: addressing the current crisis in local media. And none of them,

632
00:39:36,160 --> 00:39:39,279
Speaker 3: or maybe one of the five, actually does anything to

633
00:39:39,320 --> 00:39:41,360
Speaker 3: address the challenges in local news media.

634
00:39:41,480 --> 00:39:44,520
Speaker 2: So it's pretty disappointing to see that there's.

635
00:39:45,680 --> 00:39:48,719
Speaker 3: You know, there were good ideas sitting there ready to

636
00:39:48,760 --> 00:39:53,319
Speaker 3: be enacted, and for whatever reason, and I won't try

637
00:39:53,360 --> 00:39:55,560
Speaker 3: and guess why, but for whatever reason, none of them

638
00:39:55,600 --> 00:39:58,720
Speaker 3: have been And the Fair Digital News Bargaining Bill would

639
00:39:58,760 --> 00:40:02,240
Speaker 3: have been a a really positive step to support local

640
00:40:02,320 --> 00:40:05,600
Speaker 3: news media at an unpreceding time of crisis.

641
00:40:06,000 --> 00:40:10,440
Speaker 1: Yeah, unfortunately, it's it sort of has failed gradually everywhere,

642
00:40:10,440 --> 00:40:13,040
Speaker 1: whether it's Australia or Canada. You know, there's been deals

643
00:40:13,080 --> 00:40:15,719
Speaker 1: done with big tech over there, but meta has sort

644
00:40:15,760 --> 00:40:20,040
Speaker 1: of turned its back on on those sorts of arrangements. Interestingly,

645
00:40:20,040 --> 00:40:22,120
Speaker 1: one of the last things that Labor did, I think,

646
00:40:22,160 --> 00:40:25,759
Speaker 1: on its last day in Parliament in its last term,

647
00:40:25,960 --> 00:40:30,800
Speaker 1: was table some legislation around, you know, a digital tax,

648
00:40:31,320 --> 00:40:34,239
Speaker 1: which many see around the world as the alternative to

649
00:40:34,680 --> 00:40:37,520
Speaker 1: a sort of a news bargaining bill with media companies.

650
00:40:37,800 --> 00:40:40,279
Speaker 1: Instead of wrangling all of that, why don't you just

651
00:40:40,320 --> 00:40:43,320
Speaker 1: slap a two percent tax, for instance, on the revenue

652
00:40:43,360 --> 00:40:46,920
Speaker 1: of big tech companies in New Zealand. Is that something

653
00:40:46,960 --> 00:40:52,480
Speaker 1: that's still in your thinking or is the tariff chaos

654
00:40:52,520 --> 00:40:54,919
Speaker 1: that the US is wielding at the moment a real

655
00:40:55,000 --> 00:40:57,640
Speaker 1: disincentive to try and do anything like that that might

656
00:40:57,680 --> 00:41:00,640
Speaker 1: attract the ire of the US administration.

657
00:41:01,520 --> 00:41:04,480
Speaker 3: Yeah, look, I think I think the current trade situation

658
00:41:04,560 --> 00:41:08,520
Speaker 3: with the United States has complicated things a little. Probably

659
00:41:08,560 --> 00:41:13,000
Speaker 3: be a slight understatement, but the I mean, one of

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00:41:13,000 --> 00:41:15,840
Speaker 3: the things that the members bill that I've got in

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00:41:15,880 --> 00:41:18,840
Speaker 3: the biscuit to unfortunately hasn't yet been pulled out, is

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00:41:19,000 --> 00:41:19,920
Speaker 3: a streamers levy.

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00:41:20,280 --> 00:41:21,400
Speaker 2: So that's the same kind.

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00:41:21,280 --> 00:41:24,160
Speaker 3: Of idea right where there's a where there's the large

665
00:41:25,120 --> 00:41:30,680
Speaker 3: media platforms that enjoy our custom and happily take you know,

666
00:41:30,760 --> 00:41:32,840
Speaker 3: the fees that we pay for the privilege of watching

667
00:41:32,880 --> 00:41:36,120
Speaker 3: their great content don't actually contribute to the local production

668
00:41:36,239 --> 00:41:41,120
Speaker 3: sector enough or in most cases at all. So putting

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00:41:41,120 --> 00:41:43,880
Speaker 3: a mechanism in place that ensures that we can continue

670
00:41:43,880 --> 00:41:47,760
Speaker 3: to hear you know, and see local stories, hear local voices.

671
00:41:49,000 --> 00:41:52,400
Speaker 3: You know my background in children's television. When I started

672
00:41:52,880 --> 00:41:56,120
Speaker 3: in that genre, there was just about every kind of

673
00:41:56,200 --> 00:41:59,040
Speaker 3: show being made for New Zealand children. Here in New

674
00:41:59,120 --> 00:42:02,719
Speaker 3: Zealand you can count the number of local shows on

675
00:42:02,719 --> 00:42:06,440
Speaker 3: one hand. So I think we really have We do

676
00:42:06,640 --> 00:42:11,800
Speaker 3: risk losing the ability to see ourselves on screen unless

677
00:42:11,840 --> 00:42:15,920
Speaker 3: we shift the dynamics of the market to ensure that

678
00:42:16,000 --> 00:42:20,760
Speaker 3: those big tech platforms that most big media players actually

679
00:42:20,840 --> 00:42:33,279
Speaker 3: contribute to our local stories and our local identity.

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00:42:34,239 --> 00:42:34,759
Speaker 2: Do you have it?

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00:42:34,920 --> 00:42:37,680
Speaker 1: So what did we learn from Ruben Davidson. He's clearly

682
00:42:37,719 --> 00:42:40,920
Speaker 1: not happy with the science reforms, but no real indication

683
00:42:41,000 --> 00:42:44,319
Speaker 1: of what labor would do to address or reverse the

684
00:42:44,400 --> 00:42:47,520
Speaker 1: situation that the Coalition government has created with the cuts

685
00:42:48,239 --> 00:42:52,239
Speaker 1: and the demise of Callahan Innovation and other things. He

686
00:42:52,360 --> 00:42:55,919
Speaker 1: doesn't think the government is doing enough on artificial intelligence

687
00:42:56,040 --> 00:42:59,640
Speaker 1: that we should be a fast follower applying regulation and

688
00:43:00,040 --> 00:43:05,440
Speaker 1: initiatives to spur uptake that have been successful overseas. Not surprising.

689
00:43:05,640 --> 00:43:09,839
Speaker 1: They're a big focus on the impact of AI on

690
00:43:10,120 --> 00:43:15,040
Speaker 1: jobs and that's something with the labor movement so central

691
00:43:15,120 --> 00:43:18,680
Speaker 1: to the Labor Party that you would expect from them,

692
00:43:18,840 --> 00:43:21,520
Speaker 1: But no real articulation of what we're going to do

693
00:43:22,640 --> 00:43:24,399
Speaker 1: or need to do as a country to help those

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00:43:24,440 --> 00:43:27,600
Speaker 1: people displaced by AI, which is definitely coming for us.

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00:43:27,760 --> 00:43:30,680
Speaker 1: On the media front, Davidson seems to think that if

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00:43:30,680 --> 00:43:35,000
Speaker 1: his predecessors had moved faster, and let's face it, Labor

697
00:43:35,000 --> 00:43:38,520
Speaker 1: could have done this under Willie Jackson, Broadcasting Minister in

698
00:43:38,840 --> 00:43:41,480
Speaker 1: the last term of the Labor government. If they'd move

699
00:43:41,560 --> 00:43:44,719
Speaker 1: faster on a digital news bargaining bill, could it have

700
00:43:44,800 --> 00:43:47,880
Speaker 1: been in place and been effective? Davidson thinks. So the

701
00:43:47,960 --> 00:43:50,959
Speaker 1: question is how long would it have lasted anyway, before

702
00:43:51,000 --> 00:43:53,319
Speaker 1: the likes of Google and Meta just walked away from it,

703
00:43:53,360 --> 00:43:56,200
Speaker 1: as they've done in other countries. There was a lot

704
00:43:56,239 --> 00:43:58,640
Speaker 1: of talk of the success of the tax rebate for

705
00:43:58,680 --> 00:44:01,560
Speaker 1: the video game sector, which certainly has helped keep the

706
00:44:01,600 --> 00:44:06,640
Speaker 1: industry intact and has contributed to growing revenues from the sector.

707
00:44:06,760 --> 00:44:10,280
Speaker 1: So a good example of a targeted intervention that works.

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00:44:11,080 --> 00:44:13,880
Speaker 1: We're still a fair way from a general election. I

709
00:44:13,920 --> 00:44:17,480
Speaker 1: wouldn't expect from policy pledges in these portfolio areas to

710
00:44:17,520 --> 00:44:20,600
Speaker 1: be made until at least later this year or early

711
00:44:20,640 --> 00:44:27,600
Speaker 1: into twenty twenty six. But if, as Ruben Davidson says, science, innovation, AI, media,

712
00:44:27,640 --> 00:44:30,920
Speaker 1: the creative sector are really important to the future off

713
00:44:30,960 --> 00:44:34,360
Speaker 1: our economy and society and deserve more of a focus

714
00:44:34,880 --> 00:44:38,640
Speaker 1: the areas that warrant some policy heft this time around

715
00:44:39,040 --> 00:44:42,120
Speaker 1: and a compelling long term vision for them. I'm not

716
00:44:42,160 --> 00:44:45,320
Speaker 1: seeing that yet from labor. I do live in hope.

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00:44:45,640 --> 00:44:49,000
Speaker 1: So thanks to Ruben Davidson for coming on show. Notes

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00:44:49,360 --> 00:44:51,640
Speaker 1: are in the podcast section at Business Desk dot co

719
00:44:51,840 --> 00:44:55,120
Speaker 1: dot nz, where you can stream the podcast. It's also

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00:44:55,400 --> 00:44:59,360
Speaker 1: on iHeartRadio and in your favorite podcast app. Please subscribe

721
00:44:59,440 --> 00:45:03,000
Speaker 1: so you don't us an episode. Thanks for listening. Thanks

722
00:45:03,040 --> 00:45:05,359
Speaker 1: to two degrees for sponsoring the show. We'll catch you

723
00:45:05,360 --> 00:45:08,560
Speaker 1: next Thursday for another episode of the Business of Tech.

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Speaker 1: Catch you then,