1 00:00:00,160 --> 00:00:02,639 Speaker 1: Now the government has announced a further eight million dollars 2 00:00:02,680 --> 00:00:06,040 Speaker 1: in new aid for Ukraine. Today marks the fourth anniversary 3 00:00:06,040 --> 00:00:08,320 Speaker 1: of the large scale invasion of the country by Russia 4 00:00:08,320 --> 00:00:10,600 Speaker 1: and our contribution will now bring our total spend on 5 00:00:10,720 --> 00:00:13,399 Speaker 1: Ukrainian assistance to around one hundred and fifty million dollars. 6 00:00:13,840 --> 00:00:17,639 Speaker 1: Vasilmarashnichenko is the Ukrainian ambassador to New Zealand and Australia 7 00:00:17,640 --> 00:00:19,720 Speaker 1: and he's with me now, Vasal, nice to have you back. 8 00:00:20,720 --> 00:00:21,560 Speaker 2: Thanks for having me. 9 00:00:21,840 --> 00:00:23,680 Speaker 1: Eight million dollars is going to do much to help. 10 00:00:24,920 --> 00:00:28,159 Speaker 2: It's very important and we are very grateful to the 11 00:00:28,160 --> 00:00:31,000 Speaker 2: Government of New Zealand for extending this new package of 12 00:00:31,040 --> 00:00:36,280 Speaker 2: assistance which will be very well received in Ukraine. And 13 00:00:36,360 --> 00:00:40,280 Speaker 2: the humanitarian crisis at the moment is really high, which 14 00:00:40,400 --> 00:00:44,680 Speaker 2: was caused by the deliberate attacks at critical infrastructure that 15 00:00:44,800 --> 00:00:49,640 Speaker 2: Russia has incessantly been pursuing right and at times of winter, 16 00:00:50,040 --> 00:00:53,920 Speaker 2: while we don't have electricity supply, water supply, heating systems, 17 00:00:53,960 --> 00:00:57,880 Speaker 2: I mean, Kiva is really suffering at the moment. So 18 00:00:58,000 --> 00:01:03,120 Speaker 2: any support from New Zealand is very well received and 19 00:01:03,400 --> 00:01:06,600 Speaker 2: very much grateful to you know, Prime Minister, Foreign Minister 20 00:01:06,800 --> 00:01:10,000 Speaker 2: as well as the Deputy Prime Minister for their leadership 21 00:01:10,040 --> 00:01:10,800 Speaker 2: on this issue. 22 00:01:11,000 --> 00:01:12,840 Speaker 1: How much longer do you think this is going to. 23 00:01:12,880 --> 00:01:15,880 Speaker 2: Go on for It's a good question that you should 24 00:01:15,920 --> 00:01:19,399 Speaker 2: ask Russian ambassador in Wellington because it all depends on 25 00:01:19,480 --> 00:01:22,160 Speaker 2: putting and this war. I mean, I don't see an 26 00:01:22,240 --> 00:01:24,880 Speaker 2: end to it anytime soon, to be frank, But that's 27 00:01:24,880 --> 00:01:27,320 Speaker 2: a valid question to ask. And we want this war 28 00:01:27,360 --> 00:01:30,319 Speaker 2: to be over. But to force Russia into peace, we 29 00:01:30,440 --> 00:01:33,440 Speaker 2: must send together. We must be out there isolating Russia, 30 00:01:33,440 --> 00:01:36,319 Speaker 2: imposing most sanctions, for which I'm thankful that New Zealand 31 00:01:36,480 --> 00:01:40,039 Speaker 2: is imposing those sanctions. And we need to supply more 32 00:01:40,120 --> 00:01:44,600 Speaker 2: military aid to Ukraine because Russia understands strengths and you know, 33 00:01:45,000 --> 00:01:47,680 Speaker 2: only by you know, putting pressure on Russia that we 34 00:01:47,720 --> 00:01:51,040 Speaker 2: can increase the cost of war and actually force them 35 00:01:51,080 --> 00:01:54,120 Speaker 2: into peace. For now, they're not demonstrating any sign of 36 00:01:54,280 --> 00:01:55,280 Speaker 2: stopping this war. 37 00:01:56,360 --> 00:01:58,840 Speaker 1: How much longer do you think he can sustain the 38 00:01:58,880 --> 00:02:00,640 Speaker 1: economic damage there? What's going on? 39 00:02:01,480 --> 00:02:04,240 Speaker 2: I can't predict it because they don't have a magic ball, 40 00:02:04,760 --> 00:02:07,480 Speaker 2: but he's you know, over one point two million Russians 41 00:02:07,520 --> 00:02:12,840 Speaker 2: either dead, would be captured, one point two million. I 42 00:02:12,840 --> 00:02:15,720 Speaker 2: don't think he cares. That's a whole point. He doesn't care. 43 00:02:15,880 --> 00:02:18,000 Speaker 2: He's got one hundred and forty million people. He can 44 00:02:18,040 --> 00:02:21,560 Speaker 2: probably kill another two million, and that's the point. And 45 00:02:22,040 --> 00:02:25,160 Speaker 2: because dictators, they don't care about people. And he's been 46 00:02:25,200 --> 00:02:27,919 Speaker 2: running his country for twenty five years. He's a thug, 47 00:02:28,160 --> 00:02:30,440 Speaker 2: you know, and a mafia who's been you know, the 48 00:02:30,520 --> 00:02:33,799 Speaker 2: richest man in the world, who enriched himself and imagine himself, 49 00:02:33,800 --> 00:02:36,960 Speaker 2: Peter the Great, who's want to change the borders by 50 00:02:37,120 --> 00:02:40,079 Speaker 2: force and change history. He doesn't believe Ukraine has a 51 00:02:40,160 --> 00:02:42,760 Speaker 2: right to exist. He doesn't believe we have any agency. 52 00:02:42,880 --> 00:02:45,079 Speaker 2: He doesn't even believe we have you know, we even 53 00:02:45,120 --> 00:02:48,200 Speaker 2: a separate country. He believes we all Russians who must 54 00:02:48,200 --> 00:02:52,800 Speaker 2: be subjugated. I mean, this is new imperialistic ambition which 55 00:02:52,800 --> 00:02:55,600 Speaker 2: Putin is not pursuing. And look, there's so much a 56 00:02:55,639 --> 00:02:59,120 Speaker 2: stake for New Zealand because we must work together to 57 00:02:59,240 --> 00:03:01,800 Speaker 2: ensure that Russia fails, and that will be the best 58 00:03:01,840 --> 00:03:04,920 Speaker 2: deterrence we can build in the region. Because this is 59 00:03:05,000 --> 00:03:08,080 Speaker 2: what you know, other authoritarian leaders in the region in 60 00:03:08,120 --> 00:03:12,560 Speaker 2: Asia may take as a blueprint and they use it 61 00:03:12,560 --> 00:03:15,840 Speaker 2: as a road map, and we need to create that 62 00:03:15,960 --> 00:03:19,560 Speaker 2: deterrence by ensuring that Russia fails and it's held accountable 63 00:03:19,560 --> 00:03:20,560 Speaker 2: for the crime of aggression. 64 00:03:20,800 --> 00:03:23,360 Speaker 1: Yeah, so it seems like the most likely way that 65 00:03:23,400 --> 00:03:26,160 Speaker 1: this all comes to an end is through is through 66 00:03:26,160 --> 00:03:30,920 Speaker 1: a US broken peace deal. What would be acceptable do 67 00:03:30,960 --> 00:03:33,200 Speaker 1: you think to Zelenski, what would he be prepared to 68 00:03:33,240 --> 00:03:34,360 Speaker 1: give up to make the stop. 69 00:03:36,200 --> 00:03:37,720 Speaker 2: I don't think we have to give up anything. 70 00:03:38,640 --> 00:03:40,600 Speaker 1: Well, you are dealing with Donald Trump, so let's be 71 00:03:40,640 --> 00:03:42,360 Speaker 1: realistic now. 72 00:03:42,480 --> 00:03:45,800 Speaker 2: But this is not about Donald Trump. This is about Russia, 73 00:03:46,000 --> 00:03:48,880 Speaker 2: and the pressure should be on Russia that they need 74 00:03:48,960 --> 00:03:51,640 Speaker 2: to stop this war. They already controlled twenty percent of 75 00:03:51,680 --> 00:03:54,320 Speaker 2: the territory. I mean, it's not that the Ukraine has 76 00:03:54,360 --> 00:03:57,840 Speaker 2: to give up anything. I mean and imagine that, you know, 77 00:03:58,640 --> 00:04:02,440 Speaker 2: enemy occupies your Northern Ireland, but they offer you peace 78 00:04:02,960 --> 00:04:04,840 Speaker 2: if you can just all move to Southern Ireland, just 79 00:04:04,920 --> 00:04:07,640 Speaker 2: live there, and Northern Ireland would be occupied. 80 00:04:07,760 --> 00:04:10,640 Speaker 1: I know it's offensive, I mean the thought of its offensive, 81 00:04:10,720 --> 00:04:14,600 Speaker 1: but it is also we're dealing with reality and politics here, right. 82 00:04:14,640 --> 00:04:16,880 Speaker 1: If it's occupying twenty percent of the country, surely that 83 00:04:17,000 --> 00:04:18,320 Speaker 1: is what Ukraine has to give up. 84 00:04:20,360 --> 00:04:24,240 Speaker 2: It's we you know, Baltic nations were occupied by the 85 00:04:24,320 --> 00:04:28,320 Speaker 2: Soviets in nineteen forty five, and they remained under the 86 00:04:28,360 --> 00:04:32,279 Speaker 2: occupation until they became liberated. And Western world has never 87 00:04:33,000 --> 00:04:38,120 Speaker 2: recognized the occupation of Latvia, Estonia or Lithenia, and nobody 88 00:04:38,160 --> 00:04:41,160 Speaker 2: is going to ever recognize the control of the Russia 89 00:04:41,200 --> 00:04:44,600 Speaker 2: of Russia in the territories is they have occupied, including Crimea. 90 00:04:45,560 --> 00:04:47,839 Speaker 2: So this is and by the way, this is nothing 91 00:04:47,880 --> 00:04:51,599 Speaker 2: about territory. This is about people who live there because 92 00:04:51,640 --> 00:04:55,120 Speaker 2: life under occupation is horrible, and we are fighting for 93 00:04:55,200 --> 00:04:57,960 Speaker 2: those people because we know what happens when they're under 94 00:04:57,960 --> 00:05:01,280 Speaker 2: the Russian occupation. We know that any sign of resistance, 95 00:05:01,760 --> 00:05:04,880 Speaker 2: they get detained, they get tortured, they get raped, they 96 00:05:04,920 --> 00:05:08,480 Speaker 2: are in jails, and their identity is getting erased. They 97 00:05:08,480 --> 00:05:12,520 Speaker 2: are forced to accept Russian passports, the kids go to school. 98 00:05:12,520 --> 00:05:14,880 Speaker 2: Once they graduate to school, they're recruited and they are 99 00:05:14,920 --> 00:05:17,000 Speaker 2: sent to the front lines to get killed. This is 100 00:05:17,000 --> 00:05:20,680 Speaker 2: what happens under the Russian occupation and we all understand it. 101 00:05:21,000 --> 00:05:23,760 Speaker 2: So we are fighting for Ukrainian people. We're not fighting 102 00:05:23,760 --> 00:05:25,040 Speaker 2: for land percent. 103 00:05:25,040 --> 00:05:27,440 Speaker 1: Okay, So then what would it take to end this 104 00:05:27,680 --> 00:05:30,880 Speaker 1: because if Ukraine's not prepared to give up territory and 105 00:05:31,120 --> 00:05:33,760 Speaker 1: potent's not going to finish. He doesn't care how many 106 00:05:33,760 --> 00:05:36,040 Speaker 1: people die. Then this just carries on, doesn't it. 107 00:05:37,720 --> 00:05:40,520 Speaker 2: Well, it's been going on for twelve years now and 108 00:05:40,600 --> 00:05:43,520 Speaker 2: four years in the past, kind of any different stage 109 00:05:43,520 --> 00:05:46,720 Speaker 2: and intensity, And it's a valid question to ask. But 110 00:05:46,839 --> 00:05:49,680 Speaker 2: again it's not a question for Ukraine because we don't 111 00:05:49,680 --> 00:05:52,320 Speaker 2: have an alternative. It's not like we stop fighting in 112 00:05:52,360 --> 00:05:54,440 Speaker 2: the war ends. If we stop fighting, we're going to 113 00:05:54,480 --> 00:05:56,040 Speaker 2: end up living under the Russian occupation. 114 00:05:56,200 --> 00:05:59,240 Speaker 1: But I mean, isn't this exactly This gets to the 115 00:05:59,320 --> 00:06:02,200 Speaker 1: nub of why Donald Trump is so frustrated, isn't it, 116 00:06:02,240 --> 00:06:05,239 Speaker 1: because like, I'm not I'm not by any means saying 117 00:06:05,240 --> 00:06:07,440 Speaker 1: that the man is right, but if he cannot get 118 00:06:07,440 --> 00:06:10,600 Speaker 1: any concessions out of Ukraine, then the fighting continues. 119 00:06:12,120 --> 00:06:14,480 Speaker 2: But I'm sorry who told you that that that Russia 120 00:06:14,480 --> 00:06:19,560 Speaker 2: wants concessions from Ukraine? Russia wants Ukraine totally erased that 121 00:06:19,600 --> 00:06:23,920 Speaker 2: what Russia wants. Yes, yes, this is what but this 122 00:06:24,000 --> 00:06:25,880 Speaker 2: is what Putin said at the very beginning. 123 00:06:26,600 --> 00:06:28,760 Speaker 1: It is your argument. So is your argument, Vessel that 124 00:06:28,800 --> 00:06:30,960 Speaker 1: they will settle right now for whe where the front 125 00:06:31,000 --> 00:06:33,279 Speaker 1: liners or you know, Dunesku or something like that and 126 00:06:33,279 --> 00:06:35,400 Speaker 1: then it will just spark up again later on because 127 00:06:35,400 --> 00:06:37,919 Speaker 1: he wants everything exactly. 128 00:06:37,920 --> 00:06:40,120 Speaker 2: This is what happened already twice. You know, it happened 129 00:06:40,120 --> 00:06:43,400 Speaker 2: in you know, he invaded Ukraine in twenty fourteen. Eight 130 00:06:43,480 --> 00:06:46,680 Speaker 2: years later he was emboldened by the weak reaction to 131 00:06:46,760 --> 00:06:49,279 Speaker 2: that invasion, he came back with a bigger war, with 132 00:06:49,360 --> 00:06:53,159 Speaker 2: an aim of taking over Ukraine. And now the war 133 00:06:53,200 --> 00:06:55,599 Speaker 2: is so full blown. So we shouldn't be talking about 134 00:06:55,600 --> 00:06:57,760 Speaker 2: the future. We need to force Russia into peace at 135 00:06:57,760 --> 00:07:00,920 Speaker 2: the moment. And therefore, it's know, New Zealand has a 136 00:07:01,000 --> 00:07:04,200 Speaker 2: vested interest, that's for the future of your security and 137 00:07:04,240 --> 00:07:07,280 Speaker 2: your stability here in the region, because if Russia can 138 00:07:07,320 --> 00:07:09,840 Speaker 2: get away with what they've done in Ukraine, I mean, 139 00:07:09,880 --> 00:07:12,720 Speaker 2: there are many other authoritarian leaders here in Southius Asia, 140 00:07:13,320 --> 00:07:15,440 Speaker 2: you know, far East. I mean, there are not many 141 00:07:15,480 --> 00:07:18,400 Speaker 2: democracies around you except for Australia. And you know that's 142 00:07:18,400 --> 00:07:22,320 Speaker 2: a whole point. And the Pandora box that Russia has 143 00:07:22,440 --> 00:07:26,800 Speaker 2: opened has undermined global security. And look, we are fighting 144 00:07:26,800 --> 00:07:31,280 Speaker 2: for democracy, human rights, for freedom of speech, something which 145 00:07:31,320 --> 00:07:35,240 Speaker 2: is dear to every New Zealander. Russia doesn't care about it. 146 00:07:35,320 --> 00:07:39,680 Speaker 2: Russia wants to destroy democracies. They're trying to undermine European Union, 147 00:07:40,000 --> 00:07:43,679 Speaker 2: they are trying to undermine other democracies. They are pushing 148 00:07:43,720 --> 00:07:48,360 Speaker 2: their disinformation propaganda globally. You know the narratives, Russian narratives 149 00:07:48,440 --> 00:07:52,080 Speaker 2: in the global souths and Sousius Asia are dominating. We've 150 00:07:52,120 --> 00:07:55,440 Speaker 2: lost Southeast Asia. You know your neighbors believe that Russia 151 00:07:55,480 --> 00:07:57,560 Speaker 2: is right or what they're doing. Aren't you concerned? 152 00:08:00,000 --> 00:08:02,840 Speaker 1: I suppose everybody is to some degree, Vassell, thank you 153 00:08:02,920 --> 00:08:04,680 Speaker 1: very much. I really appreciate your time and bess of 154 00:08:04,760 --> 00:08:07,240 Speaker 1: luck with everything. Vest On miroshi Ychenko, who is the 155 00:08:07,320 --> 00:08:09,600 Speaker 1: Ukrainian ambassadors to New Zealand and Australia. 156 00:08:10,280 --> 00:08:13,440 Speaker 2: For more from Hither Duplessy Alan Drive, listen live to 157 00:08:13,560 --> 00:08:16,600 Speaker 2: news talks. It'd be from four pm weekdays, or follow 158 00:08:16,640 --> 00:08:18,400 Speaker 2: the podcast on iHeartRadio