1 00:00:07,133 --> 00:00:10,453 Speaker 1: You're listening to the Saturday Morning with Jack team podcast 2 00:00:10,573 --> 00:00:11,733 Speaker 1: from News Talks at be. 3 00:00:13,973 --> 00:00:17,533 Speaker 2: Clinical psychologist Google Sutherland is here with us this morning, 4 00:00:17,573 --> 00:00:20,413 Speaker 2: and he has a rather interesting subject. He wants us 5 00:00:20,493 --> 00:00:22,733 Speaker 2: to stop trying to be happy, or at least he's 6 00:00:22,773 --> 00:00:25,893 Speaker 2: read some research into stopping trying to be happy. Morning 7 00:00:25,893 --> 00:00:28,053 Speaker 2: doogle Curra Jack. 8 00:00:28,133 --> 00:00:30,813 Speaker 3: Yes, it's not really what you expect when you took 9 00:00:30,853 --> 00:00:32,933 Speaker 3: to a psychologist that they're going to tell you to 10 00:00:32,973 --> 00:00:37,973 Speaker 3: stop trying to be happy, but yeah, it's an interesting 11 00:00:38,373 --> 00:00:42,613 Speaker 3: the article that I was reading. Often you might not 12 00:00:42,653 --> 00:00:45,773 Speaker 3: be surprised, you know, often psychology research articles don't have 13 00:00:45,813 --> 00:00:49,413 Speaker 3: the sexiest titles. Yes, but this one was called Happiness 14 00:00:49,413 --> 00:00:53,413 Speaker 3: Depletes Me, and it was like, that's and what they 15 00:00:53,573 --> 00:00:56,373 Speaker 3: found was that if you are trying to be happy, 16 00:00:56,453 --> 00:00:59,493 Speaker 3: or you spend lots of time trying to be happy, 17 00:00:59,573 --> 00:01:02,653 Speaker 3: and that's trying to look for as much positive emotion 18 00:01:03,213 --> 00:01:06,333 Speaker 3: as possible and at the same time avoid negative emoent 19 00:01:06,733 --> 00:01:09,333 Speaker 3: like sadness and that sort of thing, it actually leads 20 00:01:09,373 --> 00:01:15,213 Speaker 3: to people feeling less happy, having less energy, and feeling 21 00:01:15,293 --> 00:01:17,973 Speaker 3: lonely as well. So the more you try, the worse 22 00:01:18,053 --> 00:01:18,613 Speaker 3: it becomes. 23 00:01:18,733 --> 00:01:23,893 Speaker 2: Yeah, that's interesting. So if you deliberately alter your kind 24 00:01:23,933 --> 00:01:28,453 Speaker 2: of your behavior and your thoughts and stuff. Then it 25 00:01:28,573 --> 00:01:32,093 Speaker 2: ultimately you ultimately end up kind of focusing more on 26 00:01:32,133 --> 00:01:34,053 Speaker 2: the negative things, or at the very least, it leaves 27 00:01:34,053 --> 00:01:38,973 Speaker 2: you kind of exhausted and depleted. And yeah, yeah. 28 00:01:38,653 --> 00:01:41,853 Speaker 3: Yeah, exactly. Well two things. One is that you know, 29 00:01:42,053 --> 00:01:44,333 Speaker 3: having all this deliberate you've only got you know, a 30 00:01:44,333 --> 00:01:47,013 Speaker 3: certain amount of energy, right, and so if you're expending 31 00:01:47,053 --> 00:01:50,933 Speaker 3: that on trying to do something, changing your behavior, changing 32 00:01:50,933 --> 00:01:55,813 Speaker 3: your thoughts, then you can get tired and exhausted, and 33 00:01:55,853 --> 00:01:57,453 Speaker 3: then you end up because you know, you know what 34 00:01:57,453 --> 00:01:58,773 Speaker 3: it's like when you're a bit tired and you make 35 00:01:58,853 --> 00:02:01,813 Speaker 3: a stupid decision and you end up overspending or overeating 36 00:02:02,253 --> 00:02:04,373 Speaker 3: or something like that, and then you regret that and 37 00:02:04,413 --> 00:02:05,653 Speaker 3: then and you. 38 00:02:05,613 --> 00:02:08,453 Speaker 2: Get all yeah, yeah, yeah. 39 00:02:08,653 --> 00:02:10,253 Speaker 3: I think The other thing too, I think is that 40 00:02:10,333 --> 00:02:13,813 Speaker 3: when people are you know, the look, always looking for 41 00:02:13,853 --> 00:02:15,493 Speaker 3: the next thing. Okay, what are we going to do today? 42 00:02:15,493 --> 00:02:17,333 Speaker 3: What's going to do today that's going to make me happy, 43 00:02:18,213 --> 00:02:22,613 Speaker 3: people tend to overlook the very small moments of joy 44 00:02:22,773 --> 00:02:25,933 Speaker 3: that occur naturally, and and that might be you know, 45 00:02:26,493 --> 00:02:29,013 Speaker 3: this morning, I went out and it's been it's been 46 00:02:29,573 --> 00:02:32,733 Speaker 3: a beautiful week here in Wellington weatherwise, and I just 47 00:02:32,733 --> 00:02:34,693 Speaker 3: still down our deck, on our deck, and it was 48 00:02:34,813 --> 00:02:37,133 Speaker 3: just really delightful to be honest. 49 00:02:38,733 --> 00:02:41,693 Speaker 2: Do those two minutes this year? Yeah, yeah, thank you. 50 00:02:42,333 --> 00:02:44,573 Speaker 3: Yeah, we'll take those because that's the better we're going 51 00:02:44,653 --> 00:02:47,133 Speaker 3: to get. But it was just those small moments. And 52 00:02:47,173 --> 00:02:49,853 Speaker 3: if I had been in a hurry and focused on Okay, 53 00:02:49,853 --> 00:02:51,253 Speaker 3: what am I going to do that? What am I 54 00:02:51,253 --> 00:02:53,213 Speaker 3: going to do that? It's going to feel great, then 55 00:02:53,373 --> 00:02:56,573 Speaker 3: then you tend to miss those small moments of joy 56 00:02:56,773 --> 00:03:01,533 Speaker 3: that just spontaneously occur and actually and do give you 57 00:03:01,573 --> 00:03:02,493 Speaker 3: that positive feeling. 58 00:03:02,653 --> 00:03:05,973 Speaker 2: And this isn't necessarily new thinking, right because there was 59 00:03:06,013 --> 00:03:08,173 Speaker 2: that I can't remember it was a few years ago 60 00:03:08,213 --> 00:03:09,413 Speaker 2: now that the happiness trap. 61 00:03:10,013 --> 00:03:13,173 Speaker 3: Yeah, that's right, So it's not new at all. You 62 00:03:13,213 --> 00:03:16,933 Speaker 3: know that this idea has been around for about twenty 63 00:03:17,013 --> 00:03:19,613 Speaker 3: twenty five years. As you say, The happiness Trap was 64 00:03:19,933 --> 00:03:22,453 Speaker 3: by an Australian guy, Ras Harris, and it's based on 65 00:03:22,493 --> 00:03:26,333 Speaker 3: a type of therapy called acceptance and Commitment therapy or 66 00:03:26,413 --> 00:03:29,733 Speaker 3: ACT not not the political party that which is always 67 00:03:29,733 --> 00:03:31,813 Speaker 3: a little bit confusing. If you're talking to clients, they 68 00:03:31,853 --> 00:03:34,333 Speaker 3: think you're you're trying to convert them to a particular 69 00:03:34,333 --> 00:03:36,453 Speaker 3: political cause and you have to explain it's not that, 70 00:03:36,653 --> 00:03:39,413 Speaker 3: but yeah, it's around that. So his book was called 71 00:03:39,413 --> 00:03:42,133 Speaker 3: The Happiness Trap, and it was really it's a great 72 00:03:42,573 --> 00:03:45,053 Speaker 3: I thoroughly recommend it for people if they're into it. 73 00:03:45,133 --> 00:03:48,413 Speaker 3: But it really sets out kind of three things that 74 00:03:48,493 --> 00:03:52,253 Speaker 3: you should do instead of looking for positive emotions. So 75 00:03:52,293 --> 00:03:54,373 Speaker 3: instead of searching for happiness all the time. 76 00:03:54,573 --> 00:03:57,573 Speaker 2: Yeah, right, okay, So what are the tips that they 77 00:03:57,573 --> 00:03:59,373 Speaker 2: share through The Happiness Trap, Like, you just sort of 78 00:03:59,413 --> 00:04:02,813 Speaker 2: got to accept that you do have some down moments, right, Yeah. 79 00:04:02,613 --> 00:04:07,133 Speaker 3: That's the first one. It's not being it's it's it's 80 00:04:07,573 --> 00:04:11,533 Speaker 3: it's being okay with not being okay sometimes. And it 81 00:04:11,573 --> 00:04:15,493 Speaker 3: doesn't mean that you go searching for pain or or 82 00:04:16,613 --> 00:04:18,973 Speaker 3: sadness or negative emotions. And it doesn't mean that you 83 00:04:19,053 --> 00:04:21,333 Speaker 3: revel on them. But it just is the acceptance that 84 00:04:22,053 --> 00:04:25,813 Speaker 3: they these occur naturally to all of us in our life. 85 00:04:25,973 --> 00:04:29,533 Speaker 3: It's part of life. It's okay to have them, it's 86 00:04:29,573 --> 00:04:31,453 Speaker 3: normal to have them. So that's the first thing I 87 00:04:31,453 --> 00:04:33,813 Speaker 3: think is accepting them and don't try not to fight 88 00:04:34,013 --> 00:04:38,093 Speaker 3: against them, if that makes sense, And then going the 89 00:04:38,133 --> 00:04:40,093 Speaker 3: second point would be you know, going back to our 90 00:04:40,813 --> 00:04:43,653 Speaker 3: just you know, picking up from what we talked about 91 00:04:43,653 --> 00:04:48,173 Speaker 3: a moment ago about small moments of joy, enjoy those 92 00:04:48,253 --> 00:04:52,173 Speaker 3: positive moments when they do occur. So so just be 93 00:04:52,373 --> 00:04:55,573 Speaker 3: alert and be aware for when those very small moments 94 00:04:55,573 --> 00:04:57,813 Speaker 3: of joy occur. You know, and I'm thinking about you 95 00:04:57,853 --> 00:05:00,893 Speaker 3: with a new baby and sleepless nights, and and and 96 00:05:00,893 --> 00:05:04,093 Speaker 3: and and it's easy to kind of overlook that there 97 00:05:04,093 --> 00:05:07,293 Speaker 3: will be times as your boy rows up. You know 98 00:05:07,373 --> 00:05:09,773 Speaker 3: that that you know there will be those little moments 99 00:05:09,773 --> 00:05:12,373 Speaker 3: of a smile or a giggle or or whatever. And 100 00:05:12,773 --> 00:05:15,933 Speaker 3: if you're too focused on other things, you can miss 101 00:05:15,973 --> 00:05:19,053 Speaker 3: those little small moments that really bring us sort of 102 00:05:19,133 --> 00:05:21,493 Speaker 3: joy and happiness just just naturally occurring. 103 00:05:21,573 --> 00:05:22,933 Speaker 2: I think this is a bit of a danger for 104 00:05:22,973 --> 00:05:26,373 Speaker 2: me generally, because I'm a real time optimizer and I'm 105 00:05:26,693 --> 00:05:30,333 Speaker 2: very productivity focused, and kind of every conscious and waking 106 00:05:30,373 --> 00:05:32,453 Speaker 2: moment I'm always like, what kind of do now to, 107 00:05:32,693 --> 00:05:34,173 Speaker 2: you know, get more done and get more things of 108 00:05:34,213 --> 00:05:35,573 Speaker 2: the day, and you end up just kind of rushing 109 00:05:35,573 --> 00:05:37,373 Speaker 2: through the day and not being present. I suppose that's 110 00:05:37,373 --> 00:05:38,773 Speaker 2: what it is. I just a bit just trying to 111 00:05:38,813 --> 00:05:40,053 Speaker 2: be another word for being. 112 00:05:39,933 --> 00:05:42,933 Speaker 3: Try trying to be Yeah, one hundred percent. I think 113 00:05:42,973 --> 00:05:46,573 Speaker 3: it's it's it's you know, it's it's focused more on 114 00:05:46,693 --> 00:05:50,653 Speaker 3: being rather than doing. Yeah, I think too. And look 115 00:05:50,693 --> 00:05:53,213 Speaker 3: in the third tip i'd say as and this is 116 00:05:53,213 --> 00:05:56,333 Speaker 3: what the happiness track talks about too, is around live life, 117 00:05:56,773 --> 00:05:58,613 Speaker 3: because my people might say, well, if I'm not trying 118 00:05:58,653 --> 00:06:00,493 Speaker 3: to be happy all the time, how should I live 119 00:06:00,533 --> 00:06:04,893 Speaker 3: my life? And and and Russ Harris talks about living 120 00:06:04,933 --> 00:06:09,053 Speaker 3: according to your value. And one way to sort of 121 00:06:09,053 --> 00:06:11,013 Speaker 3: figure out what your values are, because we will probably 122 00:06:11,013 --> 00:06:14,173 Speaker 3: have them, but we may not always know what they are, 123 00:06:14,613 --> 00:06:17,933 Speaker 3: is to ask yourself, what are three words that I 124 00:06:17,933 --> 00:06:22,133 Speaker 3: would like other people to use to describe me? And 125 00:06:22,293 --> 00:06:26,773 Speaker 3: those three words are probably reflective of your value. So 126 00:06:26,853 --> 00:06:29,413 Speaker 3: if you know, you say I'd love people to think 127 00:06:29,453 --> 00:06:33,653 Speaker 3: I'm dependable or consider it or kind or hard working, 128 00:06:33,693 --> 00:06:37,493 Speaker 3: whatever it is, those are probably your values. And start 129 00:06:38,173 --> 00:06:40,853 Speaker 3: using those as almost like a compass to guide you 130 00:06:40,973 --> 00:06:43,853 Speaker 3: and how you speak, how you act in the world. 131 00:06:45,053 --> 00:06:49,013 Speaker 3: And that leads to a fulfilling life rather than necessarily 132 00:06:49,013 --> 00:06:51,693 Speaker 3: one that's packed full to the brim of happiness. It's 133 00:06:51,733 --> 00:06:55,853 Speaker 3: a fulfilling life with moments of joy, moments of sadness, 134 00:06:55,893 --> 00:06:58,973 Speaker 3: but probably ultimately better for us in the longer term. 135 00:06:59,053 --> 00:07:01,213 Speaker 2: Yeah, And the funny thing is, I feel like a 136 00:07:01,253 --> 00:07:03,453 Speaker 2: fulfilling life is actually a better way to think of 137 00:07:03,493 --> 00:07:06,893 Speaker 2: a happy life. Like, Yeah, sometimes I wonder if you 138 00:07:06,893 --> 00:07:09,493 Speaker 2: it's just breaking it down into time frames. That is 139 00:07:09,533 --> 00:07:11,653 Speaker 2: the kind of good way to distinguish between these things. 140 00:07:11,693 --> 00:07:14,533 Speaker 2: If you, if you are you know, in your in 141 00:07:14,613 --> 00:07:17,933 Speaker 2: the twilight of your of your time on this mortal earth, 142 00:07:18,213 --> 00:07:20,093 Speaker 2: and you look back over your life and you're able 143 00:07:20,133 --> 00:07:22,533 Speaker 2: to have that kind of fulfilled feeling that that is 144 00:07:22,613 --> 00:07:26,173 Speaker 2: happy in my Yeah, whereas you just focusing on the 145 00:07:26,853 --> 00:07:28,613 Speaker 2: was have I been happy all day? Am I happy 146 00:07:28,693 --> 00:07:29,053 Speaker 2: right now? 147 00:07:29,133 --> 00:07:29,293 Speaker 3: You know? 148 00:07:29,373 --> 00:07:31,213 Speaker 2: Then you never get You're always going to be chasing 149 00:07:31,253 --> 00:07:32,253 Speaker 2: something that doesn't exist. 150 00:07:32,493 --> 00:07:35,453 Speaker 3: Yeah, It's it's a deeper level, isn't. I'd perhaps call 151 00:07:35,533 --> 00:07:39,213 Speaker 3: it joy maybe, or satisfaction, or even that sort of 152 00:07:39,253 --> 00:07:43,653 Speaker 3: sense of peace or or or equanimity, just that sense 153 00:07:43,693 --> 00:07:48,013 Speaker 3: of oh, i'm i'm i'm, I'm I'm here, i am 154 00:07:48,133 --> 00:07:52,533 Speaker 3: and I'm enjoying life and my life as feels complete 155 00:07:53,533 --> 00:07:55,373 Speaker 3: And that can be a bit of a subtle change 156 00:07:55,373 --> 00:07:57,533 Speaker 3: for people. But but, but, but I think a really 157 00:07:57,573 --> 00:07:59,893 Speaker 3: good one if you're able to switch. 158 00:07:59,613 --> 00:08:00,413 Speaker 2: That up nice. 159 00:08:00,533 --> 00:08:00,933 Speaker 3: I like that. 160 00:08:01,533 --> 00:08:03,733 Speaker 2: We'll put that by your byline, Google. So the less 161 00:08:03,773 --> 00:08:06,853 Speaker 2: is stop trying to be happy, clinical psychologists, Turgles, Sutherlands, 162 00:08:06,973 --> 00:08:11,293 Speaker 2: stop trying to be heavy, be fulfilled instead, be satisfied. 163 00:08:12,013 --> 00:08:13,773 Speaker 2: Thank you so much, Google, Have a great weekend and 164 00:08:13,773 --> 00:08:16,613 Speaker 2: we'll catch again very soon. Google Sutherland from Umbrella well 165 00:08:16,653 --> 00:08:17,333 Speaker 2: being there. 166 00:08:17,813 --> 00:08:20,893 Speaker 1: For more from Saturday Morning with Jack Tame. Listen live 167 00:08:20,973 --> 00:08:23,813 Speaker 1: to News Talks at B from nine am Saturday, or 168 00:08:23,893 --> 00:08:25,773 Speaker 1: follow the podcast on iHeartRadio