Speaker 1: Hilda, I'm Chelsea Daniels and This is the Front Page,
Speaker 1: a daily podcast presented by the New Zealand Herald. Us
Speaker 1: Mere Mortals often idolize celebrities. Their glitzy and glamorous lifestyles
Speaker 1: have had audiences captivated for decades, but at what point
Speaker 1: does the line blur from adoration to a sense of ownership.
Speaker 1: The tragic death of One Direction star Liam Payne has
Speaker 1: sparked conversations about how far is too far when it
Speaker 1: comes to the public's entitlement over these stars, and how
Speaker 1: intrusive media can get to serve that need. It comes
Speaker 1: off the back of a number of celebrities speaking out
Speaker 1: about the intrusion from fans and the stresses of being
Speaker 1: in the public eye. So can society change how it
Speaker 1: interacts with celebrities or is there no rewiring of this relationship?
Speaker 1: Today on the Front Page, University of Otago lecturer in Media,
Speaker 1: Film and Communication, doctor Sabrina morro joins us to discuss
Speaker 1: this latest dark mark in the celebrity ecosystem Sabrina, of course,
Speaker 1: this conversation has been sparked by the tragic death of
Speaker 1: One Direction sty Li and Pain. There are fans mourning
Speaker 1: all over the globe. And some may say it's silly
Speaker 1: to mourns someone they've never met, But it's quite common,
Speaker 1: isn't it.
Speaker 2: Yes, it is quite common. I think with every celebrity
Speaker 2: that dies, there is a moment of the fans coming
Speaker 2: together and reckoning because there's all of those parasocial relationships
Speaker 2: that are built around the fans. Celebrity, you know, symbolize
Speaker 2: something for a lot of people, and they are really
Speaker 2: at the or of the coming together of fans. And
Speaker 2: there are ways of coming together that might be mediated
Speaker 2: through social media, that might be lived, experiencing, attending a concert.
Speaker 2: All of those moments of heightened the motion means that,
Speaker 2: you know, that possibility of no longer coming together around
Speaker 2: that celebrity can be quite difficult for fans to wrapple with.
Speaker 1: Why do people feel so intimately familiar with celebrities, particularly
Speaker 1: those that they've never met.
Speaker 2: I think it's what they represent, you know, it's a
Speaker 2: kind of way of imagining yourself in a world that
Speaker 2: is completely foreign, that world of fame, and so they
Speaker 2: capture forms of inspiration or aspiration, the kind of stories
Speaker 2: that the celebrity make accessible, whether it is through the
Speaker 2: medium of their song or the films or that kind
Speaker 2: of everyday content that they produce as social media celebrity,
Speaker 2: they capture something more than themselves, and that's what speaks
Speaker 2: to audiences. That's what allows you to project yourself, to
Speaker 2: imagine what would life be like if I were them,
Speaker 2: And especially thinking about celebrities who rose to fame coming
Speaker 2: from very ordinary background, which is the case of Limpain
Speaker 2: and his fellow band members of Wine Direction is kind
Speaker 2: of those people have talent and then they became, you know,
Speaker 2: such a big, transnational celebrities. And there is also something
Speaker 2: about the boy band and all of that generation that
Speaker 2: grew up with them. You know a lot of people
Speaker 2: around my age kind of late twenties, early thirties grew
Speaker 2: up with them, and so it represents a lot, right,
Speaker 2: It's those moments that we lived and that their songs
Speaker 2: help us articulate. It's the teenage angst that we might
Speaker 2: have experience throughout our teenagers, and then those songs giving
Speaker 2: voice to them.
Speaker 1: That fan celebrity relationship isn't for everyone, though, Rising star
Speaker 1: Chapel Rowan sparked a debate after she spoke about the
Speaker 1: creepy behavior from some fans. I don't care that abuse
Speaker 1: and harassment stocking is a normal thing to do to
Speaker 1: people who.
Speaker 3: Are famous or a little famous whatever.
Speaker 2: I don't care that it's normal.
Speaker 1: I don't care that this crazy type of behavior comes
Speaker 1: along with the job the career field I've chosen.
Speaker 2: That does not make it okay.
Speaker 3: I'm allowed to say no to creepy behavior.
Speaker 1: Other female pop stars came out in support of her comments,
Speaker 1: but it also prompted criticism as the negative sides of
Speaker 1: attention came with the fame and fortune. Where's the balance here,
Speaker 1: because you can't really become a superstar without fans, can you?
Speaker 2: No? But the key thing I think is thinking about
Speaker 2: different identity as they're immediated in that relationship of fan
Speaker 2: and celebrity. So those examples that you give are women's celebrities,
Speaker 2: and the experience of fame plays out in different ways,
Speaker 2: the demands that are made on those celebrities, and then
Speaker 2: that kind of legitimized certain behavior of fans towards them.
Speaker 2: Another way of saying this is that celebrities represent more
Speaker 2: than themselves, and so we need to think about how gender, race, ethnicity,
Speaker 2: sexual orientation mediate those images of the celebrity and how
Speaker 2: we engage with them. So just thinking about who we
Speaker 2: consider a genius, right and thinking about how the idea
Speaker 2: of a genius is very gendered. You may have celebrities
Speaker 2: struggling with drug and alcohol use that is considered just
Speaker 2: part of the game, you know, for male celebrities, and
Speaker 2: then in the case of female celebrities, would be oh,
Speaker 2: you know what a train wreck. The celebrities then become
Speaker 2: symbols of what we as a society consider legitimate behavior
Speaker 2: and not legitimate behavior.
Speaker 1: I guess in this case, at least the fan interaction
Speaker 1: has been more wholesome than other cases. I suppose with
Speaker 1: one direction, many have been gathering to remember and honor
Speaker 1: Liam Pain. Are there some benefits or positives to that
Speaker 1: intense fan relationship.
Speaker 2: Definitely, I think nostalgia playing in it, and also the
Speaker 2: fact that he died quite young, so it's perceived as
Speaker 2: a tragedy. No one should die that young, No one
Speaker 2: should die in such a tragic accident. And so I
Speaker 2: think that the wholesomeness of the fans coming together and
Speaker 2: honoring Limpain and the other members as well of one
Speaker 2: direction issuing statement is an attempt to focus on that
Speaker 2: aspect of tragedy, and that whatever might happen between the
Speaker 2: band members, whatever might have happened in Limpain's career. After
Speaker 2: one direction, it doesn't matter, right. What matters is that no,
Speaker 2: why should they that young and in such tragic circumstances.
Speaker 2: And I think that's a big factor of making that
Speaker 2: perhaps more wholesome in the kind of interactions.
Speaker 1: The mood here in Hyde Parking is quite somber.
Speaker 2: One direction is Liam Payne supporters. It doesn't matter who
Speaker 2: we are, where you come from. It's like not knowing
Speaker 2: the person's personally. But it was when like YouTube blew up,
Speaker 2: and so it was the first time that you were
Speaker 2: ever able to follow someone's life.
Speaker 1: So intimately, I've been crying at work all day every day.
Speaker 2: Yesterday was the only day I didn't cry because I
Speaker 2: felt I couldn't cry anymore.
Speaker 1: Paines, I suppose also a good example of how that
Speaker 1: fandom can turn on you. There was criticism circulating on
Speaker 1: some corners of the Internet the weeks before his death,
Speaker 1: particularly after his ex fiance talked about their relationship on
Speaker 1: a podcast.
Speaker 3: I guess as a.
Speaker 1: Celebrity, there's so much more content out there now and
Speaker 1: we are all so online that the discourse is basically unavoidable.
Speaker 1: I guess, isn't it. Those ups and downs of being
Speaker 1: a celebrity.
Speaker 2: Yes, and especially in the case of One Direction, who
Speaker 2: became famous through reality TV in an age of social
Speaker 2: media as well, as you point out, that just really
Speaker 2: exacerbate the level of scrutiny that they've been subjected to
Speaker 2: and the amount of pressure as well that they've been
Speaker 2: subjected to. It's still unfolding, and it's unclear for the
Speaker 2: moment the cause of death. I think there's still an
Speaker 2: investigation going on. But I'm finding it really interesting how
Speaker 2: there is commentary being issued around what might be the
Speaker 2: cause of death and why it's important. And it feels
Speaker 2: to me like it's almost a negotiation of right. This
Speaker 2: is tragic, and we know that there's a certain level
Speaker 2: of complicity that we may have in explaining, you know,
Speaker 2: Liam's struggles during and after One Direction, and so is
Speaker 2: there a way that we can make ourselves feel better
Speaker 2: about this tragedy.
Speaker 1: Alongside the intrusiveness of fans, there's also the celebrity media relationship.
Speaker 1: Celeb gossip site TMZ broke the news of Liam Payne's
Speaker 1: death by publishing cropped photographs of his dead body showing
Speaker 1: his tattoos to prove that it was him on the
Speaker 1: deck of that hotel. They rightfully got a lot of
Speaker 1: backlash and took the photos down a couple of hours afterwards.
Speaker 1: But what's on the internet will stay there forever. Hey,
Speaker 1: is it a surprise we are still seeing paparazzi and
Speaker 1: gossip sites behaving this way. It's been nearly three decades
Speaker 1: since Princess Diana died, for example, and more recently society
Speaker 1: had this rethink of how we may have treated Britney
Speaker 1: spears in the noughties. Why haven't some sections of that
Speaker 1: media their lessen.
Speaker 2: Because that's how celebrity culture operates, you know, It's about
Speaker 2: turning people into commodities that we consume, and so we
Speaker 2: might consume them in ways that feel legitimate to us
Speaker 2: reading a New York Times obituary or you know, reading
Speaker 2: interview in depth interview on the celebrity or reflection on fame.
Speaker 2: We might see you know, talk shows as well, and
Speaker 2: kind of interviews around certain moments in that celebrity. But
Speaker 2: on that same continuum of what we perceive more legitimate
Speaker 2: way of consuming fame, there's also the paparazzi, the cussip columns,
Speaker 2: the celebrity magazines. It's part of the same ecosystem. It's
Speaker 2: part of the same capitalist machinery, you know, that turns
Speaker 2: people into commodities, so that we have something called celebrity
Speaker 2: news that we can click on and consume.
Speaker 1: I find it really interesting that we have this kind
Speaker 1: of ownership over celebrities in life and also in death.
Speaker 1: When my nana does for example, I didn't post a
Speaker 1: photo of her dead body on Facebook to show people
Speaker 1: and prove that she was dead, right, But I'm thinking
Speaker 1: we've got this Liam Payne situation. There's also photos of
Speaker 1: John Belushi, Cobain, Like the list goes on. What gives
Speaker 1: us that innate sense of ownership and need, I guess
Speaker 1: to see these photos as prove for or what is that?
Speaker 2: I think the easy explanation is the one that TMZGI,
Speaker 2: which is, you know, way of authenticating and proving that
Speaker 2: this is indeed not fake news or a scam. But
Speaker 2: the real answer is that sense, as you said, that
Speaker 2: sense of ownership over celebrities. We made them famous. What
Speaker 2: they sound is their whole image. It's their bodies that
Speaker 2: is reproduced in you know, advertisement partnerships, in photo shoots,
Speaker 2: in concerts, and so even after their death or even
Speaker 2: in moments where they're struggling, there is this sense of feeling,
Speaker 2: we made you famous. We ought to know how you died,
Speaker 2: as uncomfortable and as distasteful as that might appear. And
Speaker 2: so this is where then you see those process of
Speaker 2: negotiation and renegotiation because on the one hand, there's taboo
Speaker 2: around death. We don't really talk about death in our societies,
Speaker 2: but celebrity death is a way that we can talk
Speaker 2: about death in a way that feels socially acceptable. And
Speaker 2: it's also because of that kind of sense of you know,
Speaker 2: we made them famous, sense of ownership of the celebrity.
Speaker 2: And then the third aspect of it is that the
Speaker 2: celebrity death because of a new moment to talk about
Speaker 2: social norms and questions of morality, which comes from this
Speaker 2: idea that we don't talk about death a lot, but
Speaker 2: when we do, then that becomes a new way to
Speaker 2: grapple with symbols. You know, celebrities are symbols that allows
Speaker 2: us to think about question of good and bad, right
Speaker 2: and wrong, justice and injustice.
Speaker 3: The decision to run the photos drew fears the backlash
Speaker 3: on social media. TMZ and its founder, Hervey Levin did
Speaker 3: not immediately respond to request for comment, but the site
Speaker 3: appeared to second guess the decision. This is not the
Speaker 3: first time TMZ has had backlash over its reporting of
Speaker 3: celebrity deaths. While reporting on the twenty twenty helicopter crash
Speaker 3: that took the life of Kobe Bryant and his thirteen
Speaker 3: year old daughter, Gianna, law enforcement criticized TMZ for reporting
Speaker 3: on the accident before the coroner's office could confirm the
Speaker 3: identities of the victims and inform the families.
Speaker 1: Obviously, this example from TMZ is inexcusable, but the media
Speaker 1: wouldn't be constantly updating stories on Liam Payne, for example,
Speaker 1: if the public weren't eating every morsel of that information
Speaker 1: that they could write. I think I know more about
Speaker 1: the last hours of Liam Payne's life than I do
Speaker 1: with what my own family did last week. Why is
Speaker 1: there this kind of morbid fascination? I suppose, and if
Speaker 1: people collectively stopped clicking, it would go away.
Speaker 2: I would like to think so. I would like to
Speaker 2: think that withdrawing our support and kind of demand for
Speaker 2: such news would make it go away. But I think, yes,
Speaker 2: that the drive of consuming celebrity news in those moments
Speaker 2: of heightened tragedy is that it's about the celebrity themselves
Speaker 2: and what they represent, but it's also about how as
Speaker 2: a society we're using this as an exemplary moment of
Speaker 2: reactualizing perception on behaviors that we deem appropriate or inappropriate.
Speaker 2: And so the big question around Liam Paine's last hours
Speaker 2: of his life or last week of his life then becomes,
Speaker 2: you know, is this suicide? Is this self harm? Is
Speaker 2: this drug and juse psychosis? Like what is the cause
Speaker 2: of death? Because that's also a way to absolve ourselves, right.
Speaker 2: If it's a drug overdose, then it's a tragic death,
Speaker 2: but it could have been avoided had he been more
Speaker 2: able to manage his mental health and his addiction. So
Speaker 2: as audiences, we're no longer such as take in the
Speaker 2: kind of predatory relationship you know that celebrities like him
Speaker 2: have been subjected for such a young age. If it's suicide,
Speaker 2: then that was his choice, you know, and it's tragic,
Speaker 2: but it is his choice, and again it's a form
Speaker 2: of absolution.
Speaker 1: I find it quite interesting the backlash against TMC. Do
Speaker 1: you think our mentality is slowly changing, because I don't
Speaker 1: know if that same backlash would have happened, say in
Speaker 1: the two thousands.
Speaker 2: Yeah, I definitely think that there is more awareness in
Speaker 2: the kind of toxicity that comes with fame. We have
Speaker 2: more celebrities talking openly about it, we have more celebrities
Speaker 2: talking about mental health. We have generally in society kind
Speaker 2: of more concerted effort to talk about mental health as well.
Speaker 2: So I think that there's definitely some awareness there. There's
Speaker 2: also some awareness on how the entertainment industry can foster
Speaker 2: forms of abuse and exploitation and create harm, sexual harassment,
Speaker 2: sexual violence, you know, and I think it's important as
Speaker 2: well to situate that in a post me to moment.
Speaker 2: So there's definitely some awareness. But where I'm going to
Speaker 2: be a bit more cynical is that that then becomes
Speaker 2: the news, and so it's not necessarily completely undoing the
Speaker 2: problem from within. Right, It's still a relationship, it's still
Speaker 2: a form of consumption of celebrity of entertainment, but it's
Speaker 2: just reframed then around the shaming of TMC. That's going
Speaker 2: to become the news. It's not fundamentally re examine that
Speaker 2: unequal relationship that is at the heart of celebrity culture.
Speaker 1: Thanks for joining us, Sabraina. That's it for this episode
Speaker 1: of The Front Page. You can read more about today's
Speaker 1: stories and extensive news coverage. It ended dot co dot z.
Speaker 1: The Front Page is produced by Ethan Siles with sound
Speaker 1: engineer Patty Fox. I'm Chelsea Daniels. Subscribe to The Front
Speaker 1: Page on iHeartRadio or wherever you get your podcasts, and
Speaker 1: tune in tomorrow for another look behind the headlines.