1 00:00:05,480 --> 00:00:08,760 Speaker 1: Hilda, I'm Chelsea Daniels and This is the Front Page, 2 00:00:09,280 --> 00:00:17,520 Speaker 1: a daily podcast presented by the New Zealand Herald. Us 3 00:00:17,680 --> 00:00:23,240 Speaker 1: Mere Mortals often idolize celebrities. Their glitzy and glamorous lifestyles 4 00:00:23,280 --> 00:00:28,000 Speaker 1: have had audiences captivated for decades, but at what point 5 00:00:28,080 --> 00:00:32,680 Speaker 1: does the line blur from adoration to a sense of ownership. 6 00:00:34,880 --> 00:00:38,440 Speaker 1: The tragic death of One Direction star Liam Payne has 7 00:00:38,479 --> 00:00:42,640 Speaker 1: sparked conversations about how far is too far when it 8 00:00:42,680 --> 00:00:46,360 Speaker 1: comes to the public's entitlement over these stars, and how 9 00:00:46,400 --> 00:00:50,200 Speaker 1: intrusive media can get to serve that need. It comes 10 00:00:50,240 --> 00:00:52,760 Speaker 1: off the back of a number of celebrities speaking out 11 00:00:52,840 --> 00:00:56,760 Speaker 1: about the intrusion from fans and the stresses of being 12 00:00:56,840 --> 00:01:02,600 Speaker 1: in the public eye. So can society change how it 13 00:01:02,720 --> 00:01:07,680 Speaker 1: interacts with celebrities or is there no rewiring of this relationship? 14 00:01:08,080 --> 00:01:12,200 Speaker 1: Today on the Front Page, University of Otago lecturer in Media, 15 00:01:12,319 --> 00:01:16,959 Speaker 1: Film and Communication, doctor Sabrina morro joins us to discuss 16 00:01:17,160 --> 00:01:26,959 Speaker 1: this latest dark mark in the celebrity ecosystem Sabrina, of course, 17 00:01:27,160 --> 00:01:30,880 Speaker 1: this conversation has been sparked by the tragic death of 18 00:01:31,160 --> 00:01:34,840 Speaker 1: One Direction sty Li and Pain. There are fans mourning 19 00:01:35,120 --> 00:01:38,199 Speaker 1: all over the globe. And some may say it's silly 20 00:01:38,240 --> 00:01:41,360 Speaker 1: to mourns someone they've never met, But it's quite common, 21 00:01:41,440 --> 00:01:41,880 Speaker 1: isn't it. 22 00:01:42,240 --> 00:01:45,000 Speaker 2: Yes, it is quite common. I think with every celebrity 23 00:01:45,280 --> 00:01:48,480 Speaker 2: that dies, there is a moment of the fans coming 24 00:01:48,520 --> 00:01:52,640 Speaker 2: together and reckoning because there's all of those parasocial relationships 25 00:01:52,680 --> 00:01:56,360 Speaker 2: that are built around the fans. Celebrity, you know, symbolize 26 00:01:56,400 --> 00:01:59,560 Speaker 2: something for a lot of people, and they are really 27 00:01:59,640 --> 00:02:03,560 Speaker 2: at the or of the coming together of fans. And 28 00:02:03,640 --> 00:02:06,080 Speaker 2: there are ways of coming together that might be mediated 29 00:02:06,160 --> 00:02:10,560 Speaker 2: through social media, that might be lived, experiencing, attending a concert. 30 00:02:11,040 --> 00:02:13,960 Speaker 2: All of those moments of heightened the motion means that, 31 00:02:14,080 --> 00:02:17,720 Speaker 2: you know, that possibility of no longer coming together around 32 00:02:17,760 --> 00:02:21,040 Speaker 2: that celebrity can be quite difficult for fans to wrapple with. 33 00:02:21,560 --> 00:02:25,800 Speaker 1: Why do people feel so intimately familiar with celebrities, particularly 34 00:02:25,880 --> 00:02:26,880 Speaker 1: those that they've never met. 35 00:02:27,200 --> 00:02:29,720 Speaker 2: I think it's what they represent, you know, it's a 36 00:02:30,160 --> 00:02:33,920 Speaker 2: kind of way of imagining yourself in a world that 37 00:02:34,080 --> 00:02:37,880 Speaker 2: is completely foreign, that world of fame, and so they 38 00:02:37,919 --> 00:02:42,959 Speaker 2: capture forms of inspiration or aspiration, the kind of stories 39 00:02:43,440 --> 00:02:46,440 Speaker 2: that the celebrity make accessible, whether it is through the 40 00:02:46,480 --> 00:02:50,160 Speaker 2: medium of their song or the films or that kind 41 00:02:50,200 --> 00:02:53,760 Speaker 2: of everyday content that they produce as social media celebrity, 42 00:02:54,240 --> 00:02:59,320 Speaker 2: they capture something more than themselves, and that's what speaks 43 00:02:59,400 --> 00:03:03,200 Speaker 2: to audiences. That's what allows you to project yourself, to 44 00:03:03,320 --> 00:03:06,160 Speaker 2: imagine what would life be like if I were them, 45 00:03:06,520 --> 00:03:11,040 Speaker 2: And especially thinking about celebrities who rose to fame coming 46 00:03:11,080 --> 00:03:13,919 Speaker 2: from very ordinary background, which is the case of Limpain 47 00:03:14,440 --> 00:03:17,519 Speaker 2: and his fellow band members of Wine Direction is kind 48 00:03:17,520 --> 00:03:20,560 Speaker 2: of those people have talent and then they became, you know, 49 00:03:20,800 --> 00:03:24,920 Speaker 2: such a big, transnational celebrities. And there is also something 50 00:03:25,000 --> 00:03:28,280 Speaker 2: about the boy band and all of that generation that 51 00:03:28,320 --> 00:03:30,920 Speaker 2: grew up with them. You know a lot of people 52 00:03:31,240 --> 00:03:35,320 Speaker 2: around my age kind of late twenties, early thirties grew 53 00:03:35,400 --> 00:03:38,280 Speaker 2: up with them, and so it represents a lot, right, 54 00:03:38,320 --> 00:03:41,160 Speaker 2: It's those moments that we lived and that their songs 55 00:03:41,240 --> 00:03:45,760 Speaker 2: help us articulate. It's the teenage angst that we might 56 00:03:45,800 --> 00:03:48,880 Speaker 2: have experience throughout our teenagers, and then those songs giving 57 00:03:48,960 --> 00:03:50,160 Speaker 2: voice to them. 58 00:03:50,480 --> 00:03:54,720 Speaker 1: That fan celebrity relationship isn't for everyone, though, Rising star 59 00:03:54,960 --> 00:03:58,800 Speaker 1: Chapel Rowan sparked a debate after she spoke about the 60 00:03:58,920 --> 00:04:06,080 Speaker 1: creepy behavior from some fans. I don't care that abuse 61 00:04:06,320 --> 00:04:10,160 Speaker 1: and harassment stocking is a normal thing to do to 62 00:04:10,320 --> 00:04:11,000 Speaker 1: people who. 63 00:04:10,920 --> 00:04:13,840 Speaker 3: Are famous or a little famous whatever. 64 00:04:14,000 --> 00:04:15,440 Speaker 2: I don't care that it's normal. 65 00:04:15,480 --> 00:04:19,880 Speaker 1: I don't care that this crazy type of behavior comes 66 00:04:19,920 --> 00:04:23,279 Speaker 1: along with the job the career field I've chosen. 67 00:04:23,480 --> 00:04:24,599 Speaker 2: That does not make it okay. 68 00:04:25,279 --> 00:04:27,520 Speaker 3: I'm allowed to say no to creepy behavior. 69 00:04:31,160 --> 00:04:35,000 Speaker 1: Other female pop stars came out in support of her comments, 70 00:04:35,120 --> 00:04:37,960 Speaker 1: but it also prompted criticism as the negative sides of 71 00:04:38,000 --> 00:04:42,200 Speaker 1: attention came with the fame and fortune. Where's the balance here, 72 00:04:42,200 --> 00:04:46,960 Speaker 1: because you can't really become a superstar without fans, can you? 73 00:04:47,040 --> 00:04:51,480 Speaker 2: No? But the key thing I think is thinking about 74 00:04:51,839 --> 00:04:55,760 Speaker 2: different identity as they're immediated in that relationship of fan 75 00:04:55,880 --> 00:05:01,080 Speaker 2: and celebrity. So those examples that you give are women's celebrities, 76 00:05:01,720 --> 00:05:05,880 Speaker 2: and the experience of fame plays out in different ways, 77 00:05:05,920 --> 00:05:09,120 Speaker 2: the demands that are made on those celebrities, and then 78 00:05:09,200 --> 00:05:12,600 Speaker 2: that kind of legitimized certain behavior of fans towards them. 79 00:05:13,120 --> 00:05:17,520 Speaker 2: Another way of saying this is that celebrities represent more 80 00:05:17,600 --> 00:05:24,280 Speaker 2: than themselves, and so we need to think about how gender, race, ethnicity, 81 00:05:24,560 --> 00:05:29,080 Speaker 2: sexual orientation mediate those images of the celebrity and how 82 00:05:29,120 --> 00:05:33,440 Speaker 2: we engage with them. So just thinking about who we 83 00:05:33,600 --> 00:05:37,400 Speaker 2: consider a genius, right and thinking about how the idea 84 00:05:37,440 --> 00:05:42,400 Speaker 2: of a genius is very gendered. You may have celebrities 85 00:05:42,600 --> 00:05:47,520 Speaker 2: struggling with drug and alcohol use that is considered just 86 00:05:47,640 --> 00:05:51,040 Speaker 2: part of the game, you know, for male celebrities, and 87 00:05:51,080 --> 00:05:54,440 Speaker 2: then in the case of female celebrities, would be oh, 88 00:05:54,560 --> 00:05:58,040 Speaker 2: you know what a train wreck. The celebrities then become 89 00:05:58,160 --> 00:06:02,320 Speaker 2: symbols of what we as a society consider legitimate behavior 90 00:06:02,440 --> 00:06:04,120 Speaker 2: and not legitimate behavior. 91 00:06:04,480 --> 00:06:07,400 Speaker 1: I guess in this case, at least the fan interaction 92 00:06:07,560 --> 00:06:11,479 Speaker 1: has been more wholesome than other cases. I suppose with 93 00:06:11,560 --> 00:06:15,000 Speaker 1: one direction, many have been gathering to remember and honor 94 00:06:15,160 --> 00:06:18,760 Speaker 1: Liam Pain. Are there some benefits or positives to that 95 00:06:18,920 --> 00:06:21,040 Speaker 1: intense fan relationship. 96 00:06:21,320 --> 00:06:25,000 Speaker 2: Definitely, I think nostalgia playing in it, and also the 97 00:06:25,000 --> 00:06:28,480 Speaker 2: fact that he died quite young, so it's perceived as 98 00:06:28,520 --> 00:06:31,280 Speaker 2: a tragedy. No one should die that young, No one 99 00:06:31,320 --> 00:06:34,520 Speaker 2: should die in such a tragic accident. And so I 100 00:06:34,520 --> 00:06:39,160 Speaker 2: think that the wholesomeness of the fans coming together and 101 00:06:39,279 --> 00:06:43,000 Speaker 2: honoring Limpain and the other members as well of one 102 00:06:43,040 --> 00:06:48,599 Speaker 2: direction issuing statement is an attempt to focus on that 103 00:06:48,680 --> 00:06:51,880 Speaker 2: aspect of tragedy, and that whatever might happen between the 104 00:06:51,920 --> 00:06:55,799 Speaker 2: band members, whatever might have happened in Limpain's career. After 105 00:06:55,920 --> 00:06:59,719 Speaker 2: one direction, it doesn't matter, right. What matters is that no, 106 00:06:59,800 --> 00:07:03,039 Speaker 2: why should they that young and in such tragic circumstances. 107 00:07:03,600 --> 00:07:05,599 Speaker 2: And I think that's a big factor of making that 108 00:07:05,680 --> 00:07:08,440 Speaker 2: perhaps more wholesome in the kind of interactions. 109 00:07:09,400 --> 00:07:12,160 Speaker 1: The mood here in Hyde Parking is quite somber. 110 00:07:12,320 --> 00:07:15,240 Speaker 2: One direction is Liam Payne supporters. It doesn't matter who 111 00:07:15,280 --> 00:07:17,800 Speaker 2: we are, where you come from. It's like not knowing 112 00:07:17,800 --> 00:07:21,080 Speaker 2: the person's personally. But it was when like YouTube blew up, 113 00:07:21,160 --> 00:07:22,480 Speaker 2: and so it was the first time that you were 114 00:07:22,480 --> 00:07:24,880 Speaker 2: ever able to follow someone's life. 115 00:07:25,160 --> 00:07:28,720 Speaker 1: So intimately, I've been crying at work all day every day. 116 00:07:28,920 --> 00:07:30,680 Speaker 2: Yesterday was the only day I didn't cry because I 117 00:07:30,760 --> 00:07:32,960 Speaker 2: felt I couldn't cry anymore. 118 00:07:36,520 --> 00:07:39,640 Speaker 1: Paines, I suppose also a good example of how that 119 00:07:39,760 --> 00:07:43,840 Speaker 1: fandom can turn on you. There was criticism circulating on 120 00:07:43,960 --> 00:07:47,040 Speaker 1: some corners of the Internet the weeks before his death, 121 00:07:47,120 --> 00:07:51,080 Speaker 1: particularly after his ex fiance talked about their relationship on 122 00:07:51,120 --> 00:07:52,000 Speaker 1: a podcast. 123 00:07:52,640 --> 00:07:53,400 Speaker 3: I guess as a. 124 00:07:53,360 --> 00:07:57,560 Speaker 1: Celebrity, there's so much more content out there now and 125 00:07:57,600 --> 00:08:02,760 Speaker 1: we are all so online that the discourse is basically unavoidable. 126 00:08:02,800 --> 00:08:05,360 Speaker 1: I guess, isn't it. Those ups and downs of being 127 00:08:05,360 --> 00:08:06,080 Speaker 1: a celebrity. 128 00:08:06,440 --> 00:08:10,520 Speaker 2: Yes, and especially in the case of One Direction, who 129 00:08:10,600 --> 00:08:14,520 Speaker 2: became famous through reality TV in an age of social 130 00:08:14,560 --> 00:08:17,040 Speaker 2: media as well, as you point out, that just really 131 00:08:17,160 --> 00:08:20,800 Speaker 2: exacerbate the level of scrutiny that they've been subjected to 132 00:08:21,240 --> 00:08:23,800 Speaker 2: and the amount of pressure as well that they've been 133 00:08:23,880 --> 00:08:28,760 Speaker 2: subjected to. It's still unfolding, and it's unclear for the 134 00:08:28,800 --> 00:08:30,960 Speaker 2: moment the cause of death. I think there's still an 135 00:08:31,000 --> 00:08:34,880 Speaker 2: investigation going on. But I'm finding it really interesting how 136 00:08:35,400 --> 00:08:38,720 Speaker 2: there is commentary being issued around what might be the 137 00:08:38,760 --> 00:08:41,640 Speaker 2: cause of death and why it's important. And it feels 138 00:08:41,640 --> 00:08:45,560 Speaker 2: to me like it's almost a negotiation of right. This 139 00:08:45,600 --> 00:08:49,600 Speaker 2: is tragic, and we know that there's a certain level 140 00:08:49,679 --> 00:08:53,800 Speaker 2: of complicity that we may have in explaining, you know, 141 00:08:54,120 --> 00:08:58,720 Speaker 2: Liam's struggles during and after One Direction, and so is 142 00:08:58,760 --> 00:09:01,720 Speaker 2: there a way that we can make ourselves feel better 143 00:09:01,800 --> 00:09:02,840 Speaker 2: about this tragedy. 144 00:09:13,679 --> 00:09:20,439 Speaker 1: Alongside the intrusiveness of fans, there's also the celebrity media relationship. 145 00:09:20,679 --> 00:09:25,240 Speaker 1: Celeb gossip site TMZ broke the news of Liam Payne's 146 00:09:25,320 --> 00:09:29,640 Speaker 1: death by publishing cropped photographs of his dead body showing 147 00:09:29,720 --> 00:09:32,520 Speaker 1: his tattoos to prove that it was him on the 148 00:09:32,600 --> 00:09:35,520 Speaker 1: deck of that hotel. They rightfully got a lot of 149 00:09:35,559 --> 00:09:39,040 Speaker 1: backlash and took the photos down a couple of hours afterwards. 150 00:09:39,040 --> 00:09:41,440 Speaker 1: But what's on the internet will stay there forever. Hey, 151 00:09:41,920 --> 00:09:45,600 Speaker 1: is it a surprise we are still seeing paparazzi and 152 00:09:45,640 --> 00:09:49,360 Speaker 1: gossip sites behaving this way. It's been nearly three decades 153 00:09:49,440 --> 00:09:53,360 Speaker 1: since Princess Diana died, for example, and more recently society 154 00:09:53,400 --> 00:09:56,160 Speaker 1: had this rethink of how we may have treated Britney 155 00:09:56,200 --> 00:09:59,520 Speaker 1: spears in the noughties. Why haven't some sections of that 156 00:09:59,559 --> 00:10:00,920 Speaker 1: media their lessen. 157 00:10:01,000 --> 00:10:05,760 Speaker 2: Because that's how celebrity culture operates, you know, It's about 158 00:10:05,840 --> 00:10:10,480 Speaker 2: turning people into commodities that we consume, and so we 159 00:10:10,559 --> 00:10:13,839 Speaker 2: might consume them in ways that feel legitimate to us 160 00:10:13,920 --> 00:10:17,240 Speaker 2: reading a New York Times obituary or you know, reading 161 00:10:17,679 --> 00:10:22,480 Speaker 2: interview in depth interview on the celebrity or reflection on fame. 162 00:10:22,880 --> 00:10:25,800 Speaker 2: We might see you know, talk shows as well, and 163 00:10:25,880 --> 00:10:29,360 Speaker 2: kind of interviews around certain moments in that celebrity. But 164 00:10:29,559 --> 00:10:32,400 Speaker 2: on that same continuum of what we perceive more legitimate 165 00:10:32,440 --> 00:10:36,800 Speaker 2: way of consuming fame, there's also the paparazzi, the cussip columns, 166 00:10:37,080 --> 00:10:40,280 Speaker 2: the celebrity magazines. It's part of the same ecosystem. It's 167 00:10:40,360 --> 00:10:44,320 Speaker 2: part of the same capitalist machinery, you know, that turns 168 00:10:44,360 --> 00:10:47,960 Speaker 2: people into commodities, so that we have something called celebrity 169 00:10:48,040 --> 00:10:50,640 Speaker 2: news that we can click on and consume. 170 00:10:51,040 --> 00:10:54,560 Speaker 1: I find it really interesting that we have this kind 171 00:10:54,559 --> 00:10:58,800 Speaker 1: of ownership over celebrities in life and also in death. 172 00:10:59,160 --> 00:11:02,360 Speaker 1: When my nana does for example, I didn't post a 173 00:11:02,400 --> 00:11:05,200 Speaker 1: photo of her dead body on Facebook to show people 174 00:11:05,200 --> 00:11:07,320 Speaker 1: and prove that she was dead, right, But I'm thinking 175 00:11:07,559 --> 00:11:10,840 Speaker 1: we've got this Liam Payne situation. There's also photos of 176 00:11:10,920 --> 00:11:14,640 Speaker 1: John Belushi, Cobain, Like the list goes on. What gives 177 00:11:14,760 --> 00:11:20,079 Speaker 1: us that innate sense of ownership and need, I guess 178 00:11:20,200 --> 00:11:23,880 Speaker 1: to see these photos as prove for or what is that? 179 00:11:24,360 --> 00:11:27,160 Speaker 2: I think the easy explanation is the one that TMZGI, 180 00:11:27,400 --> 00:11:30,400 Speaker 2: which is, you know, way of authenticating and proving that 181 00:11:30,440 --> 00:11:33,200 Speaker 2: this is indeed not fake news or a scam. But 182 00:11:33,920 --> 00:11:37,200 Speaker 2: the real answer is that sense, as you said, that 183 00:11:37,320 --> 00:11:42,199 Speaker 2: sense of ownership over celebrities. We made them famous. What 184 00:11:42,280 --> 00:11:45,880 Speaker 2: they sound is their whole image. It's their bodies that 185 00:11:46,000 --> 00:11:51,200 Speaker 2: is reproduced in you know, advertisement partnerships, in photo shoots, 186 00:11:51,240 --> 00:11:56,040 Speaker 2: in concerts, and so even after their death or even 187 00:11:56,120 --> 00:11:59,400 Speaker 2: in moments where they're struggling, there is this sense of feeling, 188 00:11:59,600 --> 00:12:03,880 Speaker 2: we made you famous. We ought to know how you died, 189 00:12:04,480 --> 00:12:08,360 Speaker 2: as uncomfortable and as distasteful as that might appear. And 190 00:12:08,440 --> 00:12:11,679 Speaker 2: so this is where then you see those process of 191 00:12:11,720 --> 00:12:15,439 Speaker 2: negotiation and renegotiation because on the one hand, there's taboo 192 00:12:15,480 --> 00:12:18,920 Speaker 2: around death. We don't really talk about death in our societies, 193 00:12:19,480 --> 00:12:21,880 Speaker 2: but celebrity death is a way that we can talk 194 00:12:21,920 --> 00:12:25,920 Speaker 2: about death in a way that feels socially acceptable. And 195 00:12:26,320 --> 00:12:29,840 Speaker 2: it's also because of that kind of sense of you know, 196 00:12:29,880 --> 00:12:32,840 Speaker 2: we made them famous, sense of ownership of the celebrity. 197 00:12:33,200 --> 00:12:35,200 Speaker 2: And then the third aspect of it is that the 198 00:12:35,240 --> 00:12:38,000 Speaker 2: celebrity death because of a new moment to talk about 199 00:12:38,120 --> 00:12:41,960 Speaker 2: social norms and questions of morality, which comes from this 200 00:12:42,120 --> 00:12:44,360 Speaker 2: idea that we don't talk about death a lot, but 201 00:12:44,440 --> 00:12:46,760 Speaker 2: when we do, then that becomes a new way to 202 00:12:47,080 --> 00:12:50,040 Speaker 2: grapple with symbols. You know, celebrities are symbols that allows 203 00:12:50,120 --> 00:12:53,280 Speaker 2: us to think about question of good and bad, right 204 00:12:53,360 --> 00:12:55,880 Speaker 2: and wrong, justice and injustice. 205 00:12:57,679 --> 00:13:00,559 Speaker 3: The decision to run the photos drew fears the backlash 206 00:13:00,559 --> 00:13:03,800 Speaker 3: on social media. TMZ and its founder, Hervey Levin did 207 00:13:03,880 --> 00:13:07,320 Speaker 3: not immediately respond to request for comment, but the site 208 00:13:07,360 --> 00:13:09,960 Speaker 3: appeared to second guess the decision. This is not the 209 00:13:10,000 --> 00:13:12,760 Speaker 3: first time TMZ has had backlash over its reporting of 210 00:13:12,800 --> 00:13:16,640 Speaker 3: celebrity deaths. While reporting on the twenty twenty helicopter crash 211 00:13:16,800 --> 00:13:19,240 Speaker 3: that took the life of Kobe Bryant and his thirteen 212 00:13:19,280 --> 00:13:23,200 Speaker 3: year old daughter, Gianna, law enforcement criticized TMZ for reporting 213 00:13:23,200 --> 00:13:26,120 Speaker 3: on the accident before the coroner's office could confirm the 214 00:13:26,120 --> 00:13:28,800 Speaker 3: identities of the victims and inform the families. 215 00:13:31,400 --> 00:13:35,400 Speaker 1: Obviously, this example from TMZ is inexcusable, but the media 216 00:13:35,480 --> 00:13:40,000 Speaker 1: wouldn't be constantly updating stories on Liam Payne, for example, 217 00:13:40,040 --> 00:13:43,280 Speaker 1: if the public weren't eating every morsel of that information 218 00:13:43,360 --> 00:13:45,840 Speaker 1: that they could write. I think I know more about 219 00:13:45,880 --> 00:13:48,080 Speaker 1: the last hours of Liam Payne's life than I do 220 00:13:48,160 --> 00:13:50,840 Speaker 1: with what my own family did last week. Why is 221 00:13:50,880 --> 00:13:55,200 Speaker 1: there this kind of morbid fascination? I suppose, and if 222 00:13:55,240 --> 00:13:58,840 Speaker 1: people collectively stopped clicking, it would go away. 223 00:13:59,120 --> 00:14:01,960 Speaker 2: I would like to think so. I would like to 224 00:14:02,000 --> 00:14:06,160 Speaker 2: think that withdrawing our support and kind of demand for 225 00:14:06,280 --> 00:14:09,600 Speaker 2: such news would make it go away. But I think, yes, 226 00:14:09,760 --> 00:14:13,880 Speaker 2: that the drive of consuming celebrity news in those moments 227 00:14:13,920 --> 00:14:17,800 Speaker 2: of heightened tragedy is that it's about the celebrity themselves 228 00:14:17,800 --> 00:14:21,280 Speaker 2: and what they represent, but it's also about how as 229 00:14:21,320 --> 00:14:25,640 Speaker 2: a society we're using this as an exemplary moment of 230 00:14:26,120 --> 00:14:31,800 Speaker 2: reactualizing perception on behaviors that we deem appropriate or inappropriate. 231 00:14:32,320 --> 00:14:37,480 Speaker 2: And so the big question around Liam Paine's last hours 232 00:14:37,520 --> 00:14:41,080 Speaker 2: of his life or last week of his life then becomes, 233 00:14:41,280 --> 00:14:43,800 Speaker 2: you know, is this suicide? Is this self harm? Is 234 00:14:43,840 --> 00:14:47,200 Speaker 2: this drug and juse psychosis? Like what is the cause 235 00:14:47,240 --> 00:14:51,680 Speaker 2: of death? Because that's also a way to absolve ourselves, right. 236 00:14:51,800 --> 00:14:54,920 Speaker 2: If it's a drug overdose, then it's a tragic death, 237 00:14:55,200 --> 00:14:58,600 Speaker 2: but it could have been avoided had he been more 238 00:14:58,640 --> 00:15:02,480 Speaker 2: able to manage his mental health and his addiction. So 239 00:15:03,160 --> 00:15:06,480 Speaker 2: as audiences, we're no longer such as take in the 240 00:15:06,600 --> 00:15:10,600 Speaker 2: kind of predatory relationship you know that celebrities like him 241 00:15:10,640 --> 00:15:14,080 Speaker 2: have been subjected for such a young age. If it's suicide, 242 00:15:14,160 --> 00:15:16,760 Speaker 2: then that was his choice, you know, and it's tragic, 243 00:15:16,840 --> 00:15:18,800 Speaker 2: but it is his choice, and again it's a form 244 00:15:18,800 --> 00:15:19,560 Speaker 2: of absolution. 245 00:15:20,120 --> 00:15:24,960 Speaker 1: I find it quite interesting the backlash against TMC. Do 246 00:15:25,000 --> 00:15:28,920 Speaker 1: you think our mentality is slowly changing, because I don't 247 00:15:28,920 --> 00:15:31,760 Speaker 1: know if that same backlash would have happened, say in 248 00:15:31,800 --> 00:15:32,800 Speaker 1: the two thousands. 249 00:15:34,320 --> 00:15:38,040 Speaker 2: Yeah, I definitely think that there is more awareness in 250 00:15:38,320 --> 00:15:41,480 Speaker 2: the kind of toxicity that comes with fame. We have 251 00:15:41,520 --> 00:15:45,480 Speaker 2: more celebrities talking openly about it, we have more celebrities 252 00:15:45,520 --> 00:15:49,520 Speaker 2: talking about mental health. We have generally in society kind 253 00:15:49,560 --> 00:15:52,520 Speaker 2: of more concerted effort to talk about mental health as well. 254 00:15:53,200 --> 00:15:57,600 Speaker 2: So I think that there's definitely some awareness there. There's 255 00:15:57,640 --> 00:16:02,840 Speaker 2: also some awareness on how the entertainment industry can foster 256 00:16:03,160 --> 00:16:08,240 Speaker 2: forms of abuse and exploitation and create harm, sexual harassment, 257 00:16:08,480 --> 00:16:11,000 Speaker 2: sexual violence, you know, and I think it's important as 258 00:16:11,000 --> 00:16:13,720 Speaker 2: well to situate that in a post me to moment. 259 00:16:14,520 --> 00:16:17,320 Speaker 2: So there's definitely some awareness. But where I'm going to 260 00:16:17,320 --> 00:16:21,400 Speaker 2: be a bit more cynical is that that then becomes 261 00:16:21,440 --> 00:16:26,320 Speaker 2: the news, and so it's not necessarily completely undoing the 262 00:16:26,440 --> 00:16:30,440 Speaker 2: problem from within. Right, It's still a relationship, it's still 263 00:16:31,040 --> 00:16:34,640 Speaker 2: a form of consumption of celebrity of entertainment, but it's 264 00:16:34,760 --> 00:16:39,240 Speaker 2: just reframed then around the shaming of TMC. That's going 265 00:16:39,320 --> 00:16:42,840 Speaker 2: to become the news. It's not fundamentally re examine that 266 00:16:43,280 --> 00:16:46,080 Speaker 2: unequal relationship that is at the heart of celebrity culture. 267 00:16:46,360 --> 00:16:54,200 Speaker 1: Thanks for joining us, Sabraina. That's it for this episode 268 00:16:54,240 --> 00:16:57,120 Speaker 1: of The Front Page. You can read more about today's 269 00:16:57,120 --> 00:17:01,480 Speaker 1: stories and extensive news coverage. It ended dot co dot z. 270 00:17:02,240 --> 00:17:05,200 Speaker 1: The Front Page is produced by Ethan Siles with sound 271 00:17:05,200 --> 00:17:09,840 Speaker 1: engineer Patty Fox. I'm Chelsea Daniels. Subscribe to The Front 272 00:17:09,840 --> 00:17:13,199 Speaker 1: Page on iHeartRadio or wherever you get your podcasts, and 273 00:17:13,280 --> 00:17:16,480 Speaker 1: tune in tomorrow for another look behind the headlines.