1
00:00:00,560 --> 00:00:03,280
Speaker 1: We'd like to interview you about how we can make

2
00:00:03,400 --> 00:00:06,560
Speaker 1: Shared Lunch better. We've got a survey happening right now

3
00:00:06,680 --> 00:00:09,399
Speaker 1: and we'd love your feedback. It just takes a few minutes,

4
00:00:09,560 --> 00:00:11,879
Speaker 1: and if you're a New Zealand resident, you can go

5
00:00:11,920 --> 00:00:15,040
Speaker 1: on the drawer to one of six fifty dollars Charisi's gifts.

6
00:00:15,480 --> 00:00:17,920
Speaker 1: The link is in our show notes right now.

7
00:00:27,440 --> 00:00:30,280
Speaker 2: Sura, and welcome to this episode of Shared Lunch, where

8
00:00:30,280 --> 00:00:32,640
Speaker 2: we lift the lid on the weight loss drug boom

9
00:00:32,760 --> 00:00:36,360
Speaker 2: in the US. It's been big business for pharmaceutical companies

10
00:00:36,360 --> 00:00:39,040
Speaker 2: for a while, but how do investors know if it's

11
00:00:39,080 --> 00:00:43,000
Speaker 2: a fad or weather this promise. I'm your host, Halen Madison,

12
00:00:43,600 --> 00:00:46,879
Speaker 2: and I'll be discussing this with doctor Deborah Lambe, global

13
00:00:46,920 --> 00:00:49,559
Speaker 2: Equities analyst at Milford Asset Management.

14
00:00:50,200 --> 00:00:53,960
Speaker 3: Investing involves risk you might lose the money you start with.

15
00:00:54,400 --> 00:00:58,200
Speaker 3: We recommend talking to a licensed financial advisor. We also

16
00:00:58,240 --> 00:01:02,120
Speaker 3: recommend reading product disclosure dot douments before deciding to invest.

17
00:01:02,680 --> 00:01:05,560
Speaker 3: Everything you're about to see and hear is current at

18
00:01:05,560 --> 00:01:06,560
Speaker 3: the time of recording.

19
00:01:06,760 --> 00:01:09,000
Speaker 2: Great to have you on the program. Dead after your

20
00:01:09,040 --> 00:01:09,880
Speaker 2: trip to America.

21
00:01:09,959 --> 00:01:12,760
Speaker 4: Yeah, it was much warmer in the States. I actually

22
00:01:12,760 --> 00:01:15,840
Speaker 4: spend quite a significant portion of the time in Vegas,

23
00:01:16,160 --> 00:01:18,480
Speaker 4: so it was about thirty five degrees when I was there,

24
00:01:18,480 --> 00:01:21,920
Speaker 4: which was really nice. A bit of a shock to

25
00:01:22,000 --> 00:01:24,520
Speaker 4: come back to the cold, rainy Auckland, but hopefully it

26
00:01:24,520 --> 00:01:25,640
Speaker 4: doesn't last too long.

27
00:01:26,280 --> 00:01:28,720
Speaker 2: Wind to hear now, deb let's start with what you

28
00:01:28,840 --> 00:01:31,640
Speaker 2: do at Milford and the reason for your trip to

29
00:01:31,640 --> 00:01:34,679
Speaker 2: the US, which I understand included seeing a number of

30
00:01:34,720 --> 00:01:36,000
Speaker 2: pharmaceutical companies.

31
00:01:36,959 --> 00:01:39,600
Speaker 4: So at Milford, I'm in the global equities team, which

32
00:01:39,640 --> 00:01:43,240
Speaker 4: means I'm not looking at companies in New Zealand or Australia. Rather,

33
00:01:43,280 --> 00:01:46,600
Speaker 4: I'm focused on listed companies that are based in the US,

34
00:01:46,760 --> 00:01:50,080
Speaker 4: in Japan, and in Europe. And you mentioned my trip

35
00:01:50,120 --> 00:01:52,320
Speaker 4: to the US, so traveling and getting on the road

36
00:01:52,840 --> 00:01:54,880
Speaker 4: is an important part of what we do. And I've

37
00:01:54,920 --> 00:01:58,080
Speaker 4: just spent two weeks, a pretty well win couple of

38
00:01:58,120 --> 00:02:01,000
Speaker 4: weeks in the US. The first thing days I visited

39
00:02:01,040 --> 00:02:04,680
Speaker 4: seven cities and drunk much more coffee than is probably

40
00:02:04,720 --> 00:02:08,400
Speaker 4: healthy for me. And then the trauff itself comprise of

41
00:02:08,680 --> 00:02:11,680
Speaker 4: a few independent days where I've visited companies by myself

42
00:02:12,480 --> 00:02:15,040
Speaker 4: and then visiting two conferences, so one was a global

43
00:02:15,120 --> 00:02:18,240
Speaker 4: bio Farmer conference, and then one was a global healthcare

44
00:02:18,280 --> 00:02:21,400
Speaker 4: investing conference, and I guess you also asked why is

45
00:02:21,440 --> 00:02:23,359
Speaker 4: it important to do this? So when I go and

46
00:02:23,440 --> 00:02:26,800
Speaker 4: visit a company and talk to the management team, I'm

47
00:02:26,880 --> 00:02:29,160
Speaker 4: going to be testing the assumptions that I have about

48
00:02:29,200 --> 00:02:32,360
Speaker 4: the company. So is what we believe about that company correct,

49
00:02:33,120 --> 00:02:35,160
Speaker 4: looking for risks that we may not be aware of,

50
00:02:35,240 --> 00:02:38,760
Speaker 4: and then also thinking about how is the management team

51
00:02:38,919 --> 00:02:42,040
Speaker 4: thinking about opportunities and then also challenges that it's facing.

52
00:02:42,520 --> 00:02:46,239
Speaker 4: And it's not just about visiting companies that we already

53
00:02:46,280 --> 00:02:49,200
Speaker 4: invest in, but it's also about visiting companies or hearing

54
00:02:49,200 --> 00:02:51,799
Speaker 4: from companies that might be a new company to invest in.

55
00:02:51,880 --> 00:02:53,920
Speaker 4: So it's a great source of new ideas as well.

56
00:02:55,520 --> 00:02:58,160
Speaker 2: Now it'd be good to actually put in context the

57
00:02:58,200 --> 00:03:01,639
Speaker 2: size of the pharmaceutical industry in the US. I mean,

58
00:03:01,680 --> 00:03:05,480
Speaker 2: the numbers are eye watering from Australia and New Zealand's perspective,

59
00:03:05,840 --> 00:03:09,639
Speaker 2: but also maybe the future and the potential that this

60
00:03:10,639 --> 00:03:11,520
Speaker 2: sector has.

61
00:03:11,639 --> 00:03:15,440
Speaker 4: Yeah, So the pharmaceutical industry itself in the US, pharmaceutical

62
00:03:15,480 --> 00:03:19,320
Speaker 4: industry itself is it's massive. So more than five hundred

63
00:03:19,360 --> 00:03:22,080
Speaker 4: billion dollars per year as the size of the industry,

64
00:03:22,400 --> 00:03:24,760
Speaker 4: which that to kind of put that in context, that's

65
00:03:24,760 --> 00:03:27,560
Speaker 4: bigger than the GDP of countries like Austria and Norway,

66
00:03:27,880 --> 00:03:31,640
Speaker 4: and that's more than twice the GDP of US here

67
00:03:31,680 --> 00:03:34,920
Speaker 4: in New Zealand. And then if you think about, though,

68
00:03:35,320 --> 00:03:37,920
Speaker 4: of course, the US technology industry, that's a whopping one

69
00:03:37,960 --> 00:03:41,040
Speaker 4: point seven trillion, So it's smaller than that, but it

70
00:03:41,160 --> 00:03:44,480
Speaker 4: is for something that's essentially mostly selling small white pills,

71
00:03:44,520 --> 00:03:47,640
Speaker 4: it's pretty big numbers. And then you also asked about

72
00:03:47,640 --> 00:03:51,440
Speaker 4: I guess like future growth. So the pharmaceutical industry itself,

73
00:03:51,480 --> 00:03:54,280
Speaker 4: it's forecast to grow about five percent per ADDAM through

74
00:03:54,280 --> 00:03:57,080
Speaker 4: to twenty thirty and that's driven by a few factors,

75
00:03:57,080 --> 00:03:58,960
Speaker 4: but one that I would really call out is this

76
00:03:59,480 --> 00:04:02,720
Speaker 4: aging population and changing demographics that we have. And that's

77
00:04:02,760 --> 00:04:05,320
Speaker 4: not just in the US, but that's also here in

78
00:04:05,400 --> 00:04:08,920
Speaker 4: New Zealand. And so if you think about our population

79
00:04:08,960 --> 00:04:13,520
Speaker 4: of people over sixty, that's forecast to double by twenty fifty,

80
00:04:13,840 --> 00:04:15,920
Speaker 4: and then the number of people that are aged over

81
00:04:16,000 --> 00:04:19,640
Speaker 4: eighty that's actually going to triple by twenty fifty. So

82
00:04:19,680 --> 00:04:22,440
Speaker 4: that means a much greater proportion of people that need

83
00:04:22,520 --> 00:04:25,359
Speaker 4: medicines for their chronic conditions and also to manage their

84
00:04:25,440 --> 00:04:27,200
Speaker 4: quality of life. I suppose two.

85
00:04:27,279 --> 00:04:30,480
Speaker 2: With medicines. One thing investors really need to think about too,

86
00:04:30,480 --> 00:04:33,560
Speaker 2: if they're looking at such sectors is that it takes

87
00:04:33,560 --> 00:04:36,640
Speaker 2: a while for a medicine to be developed and go

88
00:04:36,720 --> 00:04:38,960
Speaker 2: through all the tests and the regulation, et cetera.

89
00:04:39,440 --> 00:04:42,039
Speaker 4: That's exactly right, and that pharmaceutical industry itself, and for

90
00:04:42,120 --> 00:04:44,800
Speaker 4: me is an investor learning about it, it's quite a

91
00:04:44,880 --> 00:04:48,599
Speaker 4: kind of complicated industry and for companies itself, getting a

92
00:04:48,640 --> 00:04:51,839
Speaker 4: medicine on the market is both time rechieving and expensive.

93
00:04:52,279 --> 00:04:54,600
Speaker 4: So to have a medicine approved for use, it has

94
00:04:54,640 --> 00:04:58,320
Speaker 4: to go through phase one, Phase two, phase three clinical trials,

95
00:04:58,560 --> 00:05:02,360
Speaker 4: and then the approval proceeds, and that's very expensive, and

96
00:05:02,400 --> 00:05:05,279
Speaker 4: I think from memory it costs around two billion dollars

97
00:05:05,279 --> 00:05:08,520
Speaker 4: per drug that's approved on average. On average, it takes

98
00:05:08,560 --> 00:05:11,280
Speaker 4: about ten years. And then also if you look at

99
00:05:11,279 --> 00:05:14,000
Speaker 4: that whole process, a lot of companies fall out, a

100
00:05:14,000 --> 00:05:16,119
Speaker 4: lot of companies, a lot of medicines fall out along

101
00:05:16,120 --> 00:05:19,760
Speaker 4: the way. So around only seven percent of molecules that

102
00:05:19,800 --> 00:05:22,839
Speaker 4: start at phase one make it all the way through

103
00:05:22,880 --> 00:05:26,120
Speaker 4: to phase three clinical trials, and then of course, once

104
00:05:26,120 --> 00:05:28,560
Speaker 4: you have that medicine approved, so the regulator gives it

105
00:05:28,600 --> 00:05:31,160
Speaker 4: a tick, it says that it's safe and effective in patients.

106
00:05:31,600 --> 00:05:33,559
Speaker 4: Then what happens is is that it's given a period

107
00:05:33,600 --> 00:05:37,200
Speaker 4: of loss of exclusivity on the market. And what that

108
00:05:37,279 --> 00:05:40,560
Speaker 4: means is that copycats can't come in and copy the medicine.

109
00:05:40,760 --> 00:05:43,640
Speaker 4: But that only has a finite life, and so after

110
00:05:43,839 --> 00:05:46,799
Speaker 4: that's on average ten years, and so after ten years,

111
00:05:46,839 --> 00:05:50,279
Speaker 4: what happens is then other companies can copy that molecule

112
00:05:50,360 --> 00:05:53,240
Speaker 4: and produce what's called a generic medicine. So then at

113
00:05:53,320 --> 00:05:55,840
Speaker 4: that point in time, then what we see is the

114
00:05:55,880 --> 00:05:59,080
Speaker 4: price of the drug falls rapidly, so normally to the

115
00:05:59,080 --> 00:06:02,920
Speaker 4: tune of seventy percent in and revenue from that molecule

116
00:06:02,960 --> 00:06:05,760
Speaker 4: falls away. So that means that farmer companies here on

117
00:06:05,800 --> 00:06:09,200
Speaker 4: this kind of wheel of having to make new drugs

118
00:06:09,400 --> 00:06:11,920
Speaker 4: which then have a period of exclusivity and then that

119
00:06:12,000 --> 00:06:14,960
Speaker 4: revenue drops right away. So for drug companies to continue

120
00:06:14,960 --> 00:06:18,200
Speaker 4: to grow, they have to be continually innovating and have

121
00:06:18,279 --> 00:06:20,320
Speaker 4: medicines coming through that pipeline over time.

122
00:06:20,680 --> 00:06:25,159
Speaker 2: Gosh, quite a juggle then actually jumping into weight loss drugs,

123
00:06:25,200 --> 00:06:27,760
Speaker 2: I mean they have been talked about a lot. There's

124
00:06:27,800 --> 00:06:30,240
Speaker 2: a fair bit of hype. Why do you think it

125
00:06:30,360 --> 00:06:31,799
Speaker 2: has sort of struck a cord?

126
00:06:32,200 --> 00:06:34,039
Speaker 4: Yeah, and this is this is a really interesting one.

127
00:06:34,040 --> 00:06:36,080
Speaker 4: And one of the companies that I actually visited on

128
00:06:36,120 --> 00:06:38,520
Speaker 4: the trip was Elight Lilly, which is one of the

129
00:06:38,600 --> 00:06:40,800
Speaker 4: leaders in the weight loss in the weight loss race,

130
00:06:41,360 --> 00:06:43,680
Speaker 4: and there's been heaps of focus on the weight loss

131
00:06:43,680 --> 00:06:48,000
Speaker 4: phenomenon recently, despite the fact that weight loss medicines have

132
00:06:48,040 --> 00:06:50,680
Speaker 4: actually been around for quite a long time, and so

133
00:06:50,720 --> 00:06:53,760
Speaker 4: they were initially developed for use in diabetes to help

134
00:06:53,800 --> 00:06:57,200
Speaker 4: people manage their weight and blood sugar levels. But what's

135
00:06:57,279 --> 00:06:59,960
Speaker 4: driven the excitement over the past kind of twelve months

136
00:07:00,400 --> 00:07:04,600
Speaker 4: is new research that has shown that these medicines provide

137
00:07:05,080 --> 00:07:08,400
Speaker 4: benefit not just in people who have diabetes, which is

138
00:07:08,440 --> 00:07:11,920
Speaker 4: around five percent of the population, but also in people

139
00:07:11,960 --> 00:07:14,960
Speaker 4: who are oh weight or obese, which means that the

140
00:07:15,920 --> 00:07:18,080
Speaker 4: pool of people that can use them jumps from that

141
00:07:18,160 --> 00:07:22,200
Speaker 4: five percent to thirty three percent of the population. And

142
00:07:22,240 --> 00:07:24,600
Speaker 4: then the other really important thing that's been shown in

143
00:07:24,600 --> 00:07:27,920
Speaker 4: these clinical studies is not only do these medicines provide

144
00:07:27,920 --> 00:07:30,880
Speaker 4: a benefit in terms of the weight loss, but also

145
00:07:30,960 --> 00:07:33,800
Speaker 4: they provide other health benefits. So if you take these

146
00:07:33,840 --> 00:07:36,360
Speaker 4: medicines for a period of time, it will reduce your

147
00:07:36,440 --> 00:07:39,000
Speaker 4: risk of heart attack, it will reduce your risk of stroke,

148
00:07:39,080 --> 00:07:41,800
Speaker 4: it will reduce the progression of your kidney disease, it

149
00:07:41,840 --> 00:07:44,920
Speaker 4: will reduce the pain if you have arthritis. So it's

150
00:07:44,960 --> 00:07:48,240
Speaker 4: the combination of now proving out that it's a much

151
00:07:48,400 --> 00:07:50,960
Speaker 4: broader pool of people that can benefit from them, and

152
00:07:51,000 --> 00:07:54,800
Speaker 4: then also that the benefit extends beyond that of weight

153
00:07:54,840 --> 00:07:55,600
Speaker 4: loss alone.

154
00:07:56,040 --> 00:07:59,000
Speaker 2: What about, though, if you stop taking these strikes. I mean,

155
00:07:59,000 --> 00:08:02,520
Speaker 2: they've got all those other aspects and benefits by the

156
00:08:02,600 --> 00:08:04,760
Speaker 2: sounds of things, But do you have to stay on

157
00:08:04,800 --> 00:08:05,560
Speaker 2: them forever?

158
00:08:05,800 --> 00:08:07,840
Speaker 4: And yeah, this is a really good question, and it's

159
00:08:07,840 --> 00:08:11,560
Speaker 4: actually something that invests a debating, But what the trials

160
00:08:11,560 --> 00:08:14,760
Speaker 4: show so far is that to your point, to keep

161
00:08:14,800 --> 00:08:17,960
Speaker 4: the weight loss off, you have to stay on these medicines.

162
00:08:18,120 --> 00:08:20,720
Speaker 4: And as soon as you stop taking the medicine, slowly

163
00:08:20,760 --> 00:08:23,640
Speaker 4: but surely, the weight comes back on. And so they're

164
00:08:23,680 --> 00:08:28,080
Speaker 4: self administered injections, and they essentially work by making you

165
00:08:28,120 --> 00:08:31,040
Speaker 4: feel full and suppressing your appetite. And so when you're

166
00:08:31,120 --> 00:08:34,560
Speaker 4: no longer taking them, that means that you basically you

167
00:08:34,600 --> 00:08:37,840
Speaker 4: don't feel for that fullness your appetite comes back and

168
00:08:37,880 --> 00:08:40,800
Speaker 4: then slowly but surely that weight will just come back on.

169
00:08:41,760 --> 00:08:43,840
Speaker 2: What about the side effects? So this seems to be

170
00:08:43,960 --> 00:08:46,320
Speaker 2: always side effects for drugs no matter what you take.

171
00:08:46,559 --> 00:08:48,960
Speaker 4: Yeah, I think that's true. And so there is side

172
00:08:48,960 --> 00:08:52,680
Speaker 4: effects with these medicines, but so far the evidence is

173
00:08:52,720 --> 00:08:55,760
Speaker 4: that they're generally pretty well tolerated and the main side

174
00:08:55,800 --> 00:09:00,319
Speaker 4: effects are things like nausea, upset stomach and that kind

175
00:09:00,320 --> 00:09:02,679
Speaker 4: of thing. But there hasn't been anything so far that

176
00:09:02,720 --> 00:09:05,360
Speaker 4: would be a really risky side effect that people have

177
00:09:05,440 --> 00:09:06,360
Speaker 4: to be worried about.

178
00:09:06,679 --> 00:09:10,120
Speaker 2: Given these new weight loss drugs, I mean, how much

179
00:09:10,320 --> 00:09:13,440
Speaker 2: weight can you actually lose on them? And also what

180
00:09:13,640 --> 00:09:15,520
Speaker 2: is the bar for obesity?

181
00:09:16,200 --> 00:09:20,640
Speaker 4: So currently all the research has been done on people

182
00:09:20,640 --> 00:09:22,800
Speaker 4: that have a b ANDI over twenty seven, so that's

183
00:09:22,800 --> 00:09:27,439
Speaker 4: classified as overweight or obese, so they're not for you

184
00:09:27,600 --> 00:09:30,079
Speaker 4: some people who are a normal weight or a healthy

185
00:09:30,160 --> 00:09:32,360
Speaker 4: or a healthy weight range, which is be in eighteen

186
00:09:32,400 --> 00:09:34,560
Speaker 4: to twenty four. And then what we see is if

187
00:09:34,600 --> 00:09:37,960
Speaker 4: you take these medicines for a year, on average average

188
00:09:38,000 --> 00:09:41,160
Speaker 4: person will lose between fifteen to twenty percent of their

189
00:09:41,200 --> 00:09:44,560
Speaker 4: body weight. So if you take Novo Nordics ozempic you

190
00:09:44,640 --> 00:09:48,240
Speaker 4: lose on average fifteen percent and Eli Lilly's medicines interesting

191
00:09:48,320 --> 00:09:51,800
Speaker 4: are slightly more effective and you'll lose an average twenty

192
00:09:51,800 --> 00:09:54,400
Speaker 4: percent of your body weight. And what we're seeing is

193
00:09:54,440 --> 00:09:57,120
Speaker 4: that next generation versions of the drug that are currently

194
00:09:57,200 --> 00:10:01,880
Speaker 4: in earlier clinical trials, they're showing a similar safety profiles

195
00:10:01,960 --> 00:10:04,600
Speaker 4: but losing more like twenty five percent of your body weight.

196
00:10:05,200 --> 00:10:07,440
Speaker 2: So what about in this part of the world, can

197
00:10:07,440 --> 00:10:09,760
Speaker 2: you actually get hold of these medicines or is that

198
00:10:09,880 --> 00:10:10,600
Speaker 2: some way off?

199
00:10:10,760 --> 00:10:13,560
Speaker 4: Yes that so so far, what we've seen is that

200
00:10:13,640 --> 00:10:17,960
Speaker 4: Novo Nordous medicine ozempic that has been approved for use

201
00:10:18,400 --> 00:10:22,120
Speaker 4: and both diabetes and obesity. But Eli Lindity's medicine so

202
00:10:22,240 --> 00:10:25,120
Speaker 4: far has just been approved for use in diabetes but

203
00:10:25,200 --> 00:10:27,480
Speaker 4: not yet obesity, so the company is going through that

204
00:10:27,559 --> 00:10:31,000
Speaker 4: approval process now. And then another thing that's important to

205
00:10:31,080 --> 00:10:34,120
Speaker 4: keep in mind is that even though they're approved for

206
00:10:34,280 --> 00:10:37,400
Speaker 4: use here and in Australia, they're not yet funded. So

207
00:10:37,440 --> 00:10:39,760
Speaker 4: in New Zealand it's not funded by FARMAC. So that

208
00:10:39,840 --> 00:10:43,160
Speaker 4: means that if you are prescribed that medicine, you are

209
00:10:43,160 --> 00:10:46,360
Speaker 4: paying out of pocket cost yourself to take that medicine

210
00:10:46,360 --> 00:10:50,160
Speaker 4: and those are expensive, so around one thousand dollars per

211
00:10:50,200 --> 00:10:52,800
Speaker 4: person per month just to take the medicine. And then

212
00:10:52,840 --> 00:10:54,640
Speaker 4: the other factor to layer on top of this as

213
00:10:54,720 --> 00:10:58,120
Speaker 4: well is that there's been massive global shortages of the medicine.

214
00:10:58,360 --> 00:11:01,200
Speaker 4: So in Australia been able to get their hands on

215
00:11:01,240 --> 00:11:03,439
Speaker 4: a little bit of supply, but here in New Zealand

216
00:11:03,720 --> 00:11:07,439
Speaker 4: there's been very little, if not any, people able to

217
00:11:07,480 --> 00:11:08,240
Speaker 4: take it so far.

218
00:11:09,840 --> 00:11:12,360
Speaker 2: And what about the pricing. If the supply and demand,

219
00:11:13,040 --> 00:11:15,560
Speaker 2: wouldn't it go up and you'd be paying more again?

220
00:11:15,880 --> 00:11:18,680
Speaker 4: And that's it's kind of interesting because in most markets

221
00:11:18,679 --> 00:11:23,120
Speaker 4: you would expect that really high demand with a constrained supply,

222
00:11:23,440 --> 00:11:26,280
Speaker 4: that you would see prices go up, especially in the

223
00:11:26,320 --> 00:11:29,800
Speaker 4: short term until more supply comes online. But in the

224
00:11:29,840 --> 00:11:34,079
Speaker 4: farmer market, when the drug is approved, prices are negotiated

225
00:11:34,160 --> 00:11:36,640
Speaker 4: at that point in time and so they're set and

226
00:11:36,679 --> 00:11:39,040
Speaker 4: then what you see is over time, generally the price

227
00:11:39,040 --> 00:11:41,600
Speaker 4: of medicines actually will come down a little bit over time.

228
00:11:42,000 --> 00:11:44,880
Speaker 4: So this means maybe while we're supply constrained in the

229
00:11:44,920 --> 00:11:47,200
Speaker 4: near term, that prices will be able to stay a

230
00:11:47,200 --> 00:11:51,040
Speaker 4: little bit higher, so there'll be less pricing pressure over time.

231
00:11:51,320 --> 00:11:54,200
Speaker 4: But we still expect the overtime prices will come down.

232
00:11:55,920 --> 00:11:58,560
Speaker 2: Now, deb you're a medical doctor, you aren't practicing at

233
00:11:58,559 --> 00:12:00,760
Speaker 2: the moment. I think you've been out for about seven years.

234
00:12:00,800 --> 00:12:03,640
Speaker 2: But what do you think would you be prescribing these

235
00:12:03,679 --> 00:12:05,080
Speaker 2: medicines given what you know?

236
00:12:05,520 --> 00:12:10,080
Speaker 4: Yeah, so seven years it's time does really fly. But

237
00:12:10,200 --> 00:12:12,320
Speaker 4: I would say so based on what I know. Mine

238
00:12:12,360 --> 00:12:15,280
Speaker 4: understanding is there's a really good basic evidence to show

239
00:12:15,559 --> 00:12:19,160
Speaker 4: that these demonstrate good health benefits and people over a

240
00:12:19,160 --> 00:12:23,200
Speaker 4: sustained period of time when they take them, and also

241
00:12:23,400 --> 00:12:25,959
Speaker 4: also basically that the risks are pretty are pretty small.

242
00:12:26,000 --> 00:12:29,720
Speaker 4: Side effect profile is good. So I am with the

243
00:12:29,760 --> 00:12:33,000
Speaker 4: caveat that I'm not currently practicing. I see Nobodyson why

244
00:12:33,040 --> 00:12:34,080
Speaker 4: I wouldn't prescribe these.

245
00:12:34,440 --> 00:12:36,800
Speaker 2: Now, let's look at some of the companies involved in

246
00:12:36,840 --> 00:12:40,120
Speaker 2: this weight loss drag race, if you like. There's some

247
00:12:40,120 --> 00:12:42,840
Speaker 2: some pretty big ones and some pretty big numbers. As

248
00:12:42,880 --> 00:12:45,920
Speaker 2: we've just discussed, it'd be quite good too to see

249
00:12:46,040 --> 00:12:50,920
Speaker 2: how their share prices have performed given this new theme,

250
00:12:50,960 --> 00:12:51,440
Speaker 2: if you like.

251
00:12:52,080 --> 00:12:54,160
Speaker 4: So, the two main the two main leaders in the

252
00:12:54,160 --> 00:12:57,840
Speaker 4: weight loss race are Eli Lilly, Who's the US company

253
00:12:57,840 --> 00:12:59,920
Speaker 4: that I visited while I was on my trip. And

254
00:13:00,040 --> 00:13:03,960
Speaker 4: then also there's a Danish company called Novo Nordisk, and

255
00:13:04,040 --> 00:13:06,960
Speaker 4: that is a Danish company. And so what we've seen

256
00:13:07,080 --> 00:13:09,040
Speaker 4: is that all of this information, all of this new

257
00:13:09,080 --> 00:13:11,840
Speaker 4: information has driven really strong share price performance over the

258
00:13:11,880 --> 00:13:15,200
Speaker 4: past year. So shares an Eli Lilliar up around ninety

259
00:13:15,320 --> 00:13:18,080
Speaker 4: two percent I think last time I checked, and then

260
00:13:18,120 --> 00:13:20,880
Speaker 4: shares a Novo Nordisk up around seventy percent. So it's

261
00:13:20,920 --> 00:13:24,560
Speaker 4: been pretty stellar performance. And it's also meant that these

262
00:13:24,600 --> 00:13:28,480
Speaker 4: companies they are now pretty big companies. And so to

263
00:13:28,480 --> 00:13:30,640
Speaker 4: put it into context, if you look at the size

264
00:13:30,640 --> 00:13:33,719
Speaker 4: of these two companies combined and then you compare it

265
00:13:33,880 --> 00:13:36,880
Speaker 4: to all one hundred and eighty one companies that we

266
00:13:36,960 --> 00:13:40,120
Speaker 4: have listed on our New Zealand Stock Exchange, these two

267
00:13:40,160 --> 00:13:43,920
Speaker 4: companies are worth more than thirteen times all of our

268
00:13:43,960 --> 00:13:45,320
Speaker 4: listed companies combined.

269
00:13:45,760 --> 00:13:49,360
Speaker 2: At the same time, the prices might be high, I'm

270
00:13:49,400 --> 00:13:52,160
Speaker 2: not sure whether you've looked at the price to earnings ratio,

271
00:13:52,240 --> 00:13:56,160
Speaker 2: which is obviously what investors use as a sometimes fairly

272
00:13:56,160 --> 00:14:00,120
Speaker 2: blunt instrument to understand whether you're getting valued that but

273
00:14:00,120 --> 00:14:02,840
Speaker 2: there's also they're also spending a fee bit of capex

274
00:14:03,080 --> 00:14:07,360
Speaker 2: or capital to actually bring these medicines to market, aren't they?

275
00:14:07,920 --> 00:14:10,200
Speaker 4: And so I guess on the pe ratios, if you

276
00:14:10,280 --> 00:14:14,200
Speaker 4: look at what Eli Lilly is trading on relative to

277
00:14:14,480 --> 00:14:17,960
Speaker 4: Novo Nordisk, relative to other farmer companies, these are on

278
00:14:18,240 --> 00:14:22,720
Speaker 4: eyewatering multiples. So they are pretty they look optically pretty expensive.

279
00:14:23,040 --> 00:14:25,960
Speaker 4: They do have a great growth opportunity ahead of them,

280
00:14:25,960 --> 00:14:28,040
Speaker 4: but to your point, they are also spending a lot

281
00:14:28,400 --> 00:14:32,080
Speaker 4: and the kind of manufacturing of these is very complicated

282
00:14:32,520 --> 00:14:35,680
Speaker 4: and I think combined, by twenty twenty eight, it's expected

283
00:14:35,720 --> 00:14:38,840
Speaker 4: that they will spend around fifty billion dollars on capex.

284
00:14:39,360 --> 00:14:41,840
Speaker 4: And so one of the debates that investors are kind

285
00:14:41,840 --> 00:14:45,640
Speaker 4: of thinking about is are the shares getting overvalued? Because

286
00:14:45,680 --> 00:14:49,440
Speaker 4: while the growth opportunity is very exciting, there's no I guess,

287
00:14:49,480 --> 00:14:52,440
Speaker 4: in my mind, there's no debating the opportunity. The key

288
00:14:52,440 --> 00:14:55,120
Speaker 4: debate is really the valuation and then how much of

289
00:14:55,160 --> 00:14:57,760
Speaker 4: that is reflected in the valuation of these shares.

290
00:14:57,960 --> 00:15:00,720
Speaker 2: Now we've talked about valuation in terms of thinking about

291
00:15:00,720 --> 00:15:03,200
Speaker 2: investing in the sector, and there's probably a number of

292
00:15:03,240 --> 00:15:06,240
Speaker 2: other things that investors need to think about. There's the exclusivity,

293
00:15:06,400 --> 00:15:09,240
Speaker 2: that's the time it takes to actually get a medicine

294
00:15:09,240 --> 00:15:12,560
Speaker 2: to market. Are there other issues that have been brought

295
00:15:12,640 --> 00:15:15,080
Speaker 2: up with this new theme if you like.

296
00:15:15,360 --> 00:15:18,840
Speaker 4: Yeah, and I think with these farmer companies specifically and

297
00:15:18,880 --> 00:15:24,040
Speaker 4: the weight loss opportunities specifically aside, putting valuation aside, the

298
00:15:24,160 --> 00:15:28,960
Speaker 4: key questions would be priced. So how long will the

299
00:15:29,000 --> 00:15:31,800
Speaker 4: price stay at one thousand dollars per person per month?

300
00:15:31,840 --> 00:15:35,320
Speaker 4: And what will the price be in twenty thirty and

301
00:15:35,360 --> 00:15:37,840
Speaker 4: then what will the price be when other competitors bring

302
00:15:38,160 --> 00:15:42,240
Speaker 4: their products to market because competition is on the horizon. Also,

303
00:15:42,320 --> 00:15:45,320
Speaker 4: another debate is will people want to say on these

304
00:15:45,360 --> 00:15:48,520
Speaker 4: medicines for life? Because as we know, you stop taking

305
00:15:48,520 --> 00:15:52,040
Speaker 4: the medicine, the weight comes back on. That's a massive

306
00:15:52,040 --> 00:15:55,440
Speaker 4: commitment for someone to be taking either an injection currently

307
00:15:55,840 --> 00:15:58,600
Speaker 4: every week for a month or an oral pill for life.

308
00:15:59,240 --> 00:16:01,560
Speaker 4: And the third is given the high price point of

309
00:16:01,600 --> 00:16:05,680
Speaker 4: the medicines currently, will governments and house systems want to

310
00:16:05,800 --> 00:16:07,560
Speaker 4: pay for them? Will be able to pay for them?

311
00:16:07,560 --> 00:16:09,440
Speaker 4: Because if you think about it, if it's one in

312
00:16:09,560 --> 00:16:13,080
Speaker 4: three keywis a classified as overweight or obese so could

313
00:16:13,160 --> 00:16:17,280
Speaker 4: benefit from these medicines and effort costs currently one thousand

314
00:16:17,280 --> 00:16:19,320
Speaker 4: dollars per person per month and you sum that up,

315
00:16:19,400 --> 00:16:22,960
Speaker 4: that's a massive cost for our healthcare system. So the

316
00:16:23,000 --> 00:16:25,200
Speaker 4: price kind of it's like where does the price land

317
00:16:25,320 --> 00:16:27,640
Speaker 4: and then how does that impact the proportion of people

318
00:16:27,680 --> 00:16:30,640
Speaker 4: that are on the medicine are kind of key debates

319
00:16:30,680 --> 00:16:31,960
Speaker 4: that investors are focusing on.

320
00:16:32,200 --> 00:16:34,680
Speaker 2: Another thing I think investors probably need to think about too,

321
00:16:34,840 --> 00:16:36,920
Speaker 2: is are they a one show pony. I mean, hopefully

322
00:16:36,960 --> 00:16:39,400
Speaker 2: a pharmaceutical company has got a few strings to its

323
00:16:39,440 --> 00:16:43,360
Speaker 2: bo For example, Eli Lilly, I think is also getting

324
00:16:43,440 --> 00:16:47,880
Speaker 2: an Alzheimer's drug towards market production, aren't they?

325
00:16:48,080 --> 00:16:50,640
Speaker 4: Yes? Yes, And this is it's a key difference between

326
00:16:50,920 --> 00:16:54,880
Speaker 4: Novo Nordicic and Eli Lilly. Is Novo Nordicic is currently

327
00:16:54,960 --> 00:16:59,320
Speaker 4: it's basically solely focused on diabetes and weight loss medicines,

328
00:16:59,560 --> 00:17:03,040
Speaker 4: whereas Eli Lilly is a much more diversified company. So

329
00:17:03,120 --> 00:17:05,080
Speaker 4: not only does it have its weight loss medicine, it

330
00:17:05,080 --> 00:17:09,440
Speaker 4: has gone Alzheimer's medicine coming. It also has an oncology portfolio.

331
00:17:09,480 --> 00:17:12,480
Speaker 4: So they are quite two different companies when you think

332
00:17:12,480 --> 00:17:15,560
Speaker 4: about what sits in them and then the Alzheimer's opportunity.

333
00:17:15,800 --> 00:17:19,520
Speaker 4: That's something that investors have been pre focused on for

334
00:17:20,160 --> 00:17:24,840
Speaker 4: a while now. There's currently two main companies, so Eli Lilly,

335
00:17:24,920 --> 00:17:27,840
Speaker 4: and there's also a US company called Biogen, which has

336
00:17:27,880 --> 00:17:31,439
Speaker 4: been kind of like vying to get in the Alzheimer's market.

337
00:17:32,200 --> 00:17:35,400
Speaker 4: And Biogen has had a few controversies along the way

338
00:17:35,480 --> 00:17:39,160
Speaker 4: with its Alzheimer's medicine. The first was approved back in

339
00:17:39,200 --> 00:17:42,879
Speaker 4: twenty twenty one, and this was controversial because it was

340
00:17:42,960 --> 00:17:47,200
Speaker 4: the first disease modifying Alzheimer's treatment, and so that means

341
00:17:47,240 --> 00:17:50,400
Speaker 4: that it works to reduce the progression of the actual disease.

342
00:17:50,880 --> 00:17:54,320
Speaker 4: But the approval was controversial because it just showed improvement

343
00:17:54,359 --> 00:17:57,159
Speaker 4: in the scans of brains of people with Alzheimer's, but

344
00:17:57,240 --> 00:18:00,760
Speaker 4: it didn't actually prove that it improved their symptoms. And

345
00:18:00,760 --> 00:18:02,520
Speaker 4: so there are a number of people that actually resigned

346
00:18:02,560 --> 00:18:04,800
Speaker 4: from the FDA, which is a regulary body on the

347
00:18:04,800 --> 00:18:06,439
Speaker 4: bottom of that. On the back of that, and then

348
00:18:06,440 --> 00:18:08,840
Speaker 4: they were also very criticized because of the high price

349
00:18:08,920 --> 00:18:11,960
Speaker 4: point that the medicines were priced at at that point

350
00:18:12,000 --> 00:18:13,840
Speaker 4: when they were approved, which I think from memory was

351
00:18:13,880 --> 00:18:17,159
Speaker 4: around fifty six thousand dollars per person per year, So

352
00:18:17,520 --> 00:18:21,480
Speaker 4: that's much higher price than the weight loss drugs, for example.

353
00:18:22,440 --> 00:18:24,920
Speaker 4: But then so Biogen they've got a new CEO's coming.

354
00:18:25,040 --> 00:18:27,760
Speaker 4: They've since had a subsequent version of the medicine that's

355
00:18:27,800 --> 00:18:31,760
Speaker 4: been approved that does show improvement in symptoms of people

356
00:18:31,800 --> 00:18:34,560
Speaker 4: with Alzheimer's disease. And then also what we've seen is

357
00:18:34,560 --> 00:18:37,119
Speaker 4: that they've cut the price dramatically. It's still expensive. I

358
00:18:37,119 --> 00:18:41,320
Speaker 4: think it's maybe twenty six thousand dollars per person per year,

359
00:18:41,720 --> 00:18:44,639
Speaker 4: which is a lot, but it's come down from that

360
00:18:44,680 --> 00:18:45,640
Speaker 4: fifty six thousand.

361
00:18:45,920 --> 00:18:49,760
Speaker 2: Fascinating. I think Alzheimer's and the drugs and the race

362
00:18:50,280 --> 00:18:53,160
Speaker 2: is probably a whole episode in its south dev which

363
00:18:53,200 --> 00:18:56,200
Speaker 2: I think we'll probably come back to just getting back

364
00:18:56,240 --> 00:19:01,879
Speaker 2: to manufacturing these pharmaceuticals. Has AI had much of a

365
00:19:02,240 --> 00:19:04,760
Speaker 2: place here in terms of speeding things.

366
00:19:04,560 --> 00:19:08,240
Speaker 4: Up, So this AI kind of in farmer companies and

367
00:19:08,280 --> 00:19:11,359
Speaker 4: in drug discovery. It's been a topic that investors are

368
00:19:11,400 --> 00:19:15,240
Speaker 4: kind of increasingly focused on and increasingly excited about. And

369
00:19:15,280 --> 00:19:18,199
Speaker 4: one of the key kind of themes or takeaways I

370
00:19:18,240 --> 00:19:20,359
Speaker 4: would say that I really noticed when I was in

371
00:19:20,400 --> 00:19:23,479
Speaker 4: the US is just how excited companies are about the

372
00:19:23,560 --> 00:19:26,359
Speaker 4: use of AI and drug discovery. Because we've already talked

373
00:19:26,359 --> 00:19:30,320
Speaker 4: about how time consuming and expensive it is to develop

374
00:19:30,400 --> 00:19:33,680
Speaker 4: new medicines. And what we've seen is that the developments

375
00:19:33,720 --> 00:19:38,600
Speaker 4: in AI mean that you can develop new molecules around

376
00:19:38,760 --> 00:19:41,240
Speaker 4: ten times as fast, or so, you can design new

377
00:19:41,240 --> 00:19:44,520
Speaker 4: molecules around ten times as fast, you can run simulations

378
00:19:44,520 --> 00:19:48,280
Speaker 4: on those molecules around a hundred times as fast. And

379
00:19:48,320 --> 00:19:50,680
Speaker 4: then there's this new concept, which I think is pretty interesting.

380
00:19:50,760 --> 00:19:52,760
Speaker 4: You've heard of the concept of a self driving car.

381
00:19:53,080 --> 00:19:56,280
Speaker 4: There's this new concept of a self driving lab. And

382
00:19:56,359 --> 00:19:59,600
Speaker 4: so what this means is that you have AI and

383
00:19:59,640 --> 00:20:03,400
Speaker 4: then you robotics, and so you use AI and robotics

384
00:20:03,440 --> 00:20:06,080
Speaker 4: together and they drive the cycle of kind of prediction,

385
00:20:06,280 --> 00:20:11,240
Speaker 4: experimentation and analysis, which means that you can iteratively identify

386
00:20:11,280 --> 00:20:14,680
Speaker 4: new compounds which you then run experiments on, which then

387
00:20:14,720 --> 00:20:17,159
Speaker 4: mean that the whole process is much faster and then

388
00:20:17,200 --> 00:20:19,800
Speaker 4: importantly more cost effective for companies.

389
00:20:20,200 --> 00:20:22,760
Speaker 2: Gosh, So do we have any idea how much that

390
00:20:22,800 --> 00:20:25,480
Speaker 2: would speed things up? We talked about ten years before

391
00:20:25,960 --> 00:20:29,280
Speaker 2: being the time that it can take, I think for exclusivity,

392
00:20:29,280 --> 00:20:31,160
Speaker 2: but I think you know, when you've got a medicine

393
00:20:31,560 --> 00:20:33,800
Speaker 2: in the wings that can take even longer, can't it?

394
00:20:34,000 --> 00:20:35,880
Speaker 4: Yeah, And I think it's I think it's probably too

395
00:20:36,040 --> 00:20:39,600
Speaker 4: early yet. To put an actual number on how much

396
00:20:39,600 --> 00:20:41,920
Speaker 4: it could speed things up. But I think what we're

397
00:20:41,920 --> 00:20:44,000
Speaker 4: seeing is more and more companies are talking about it,

398
00:20:44,160 --> 00:20:46,880
Speaker 4: more and more companies are using it in their drug

399
00:20:46,920 --> 00:20:49,680
Speaker 4: discovery process. So I think over time we'll be able

400
00:20:49,720 --> 00:20:53,399
Speaker 4: to get a better sense of how much time it

401
00:20:53,600 --> 00:20:56,919
Speaker 4: actually is taking off the drug discovery process. But to

402
00:20:56,960 --> 00:20:59,879
Speaker 4: the extent that it means we can develop medicines that

403
00:21:00,680 --> 00:21:02,840
Speaker 4: are cheaper, I feel like that could only be a

404
00:21:02,840 --> 00:21:05,320
Speaker 4: good thing given the high costs of healthcare that we're

405
00:21:05,320 --> 00:21:06,920
Speaker 4: seeing around the world now.

406
00:21:07,000 --> 00:21:10,760
Speaker 2: Just thinking about investors looking to invest in the sector,

407
00:21:11,400 --> 00:21:14,359
Speaker 2: I mean, there are those direct stocks, they are probably

408
00:21:14,440 --> 00:21:17,280
Speaker 2: quite expensive at the moment for some people. But also

409
00:21:17,480 --> 00:21:20,600
Speaker 2: what about ETFs. I know on cheeseys, for instance, we've

410
00:21:20,600 --> 00:21:24,359
Speaker 2: got about five or at least there's more actually pharmaceutical

411
00:21:24,400 --> 00:21:27,720
Speaker 2: ETFs that people can look to. They are mainly in

412
00:21:27,760 --> 00:21:30,600
Speaker 2: the US. But also I did see that there was

413
00:21:30,800 --> 00:21:36,679
Speaker 2: a couple of applications for more themed weight loss ETFs

414
00:21:36,680 --> 00:21:40,120
Speaker 2: by I think Amplify and round Tel investments were two,

415
00:21:40,560 --> 00:21:43,240
Speaker 2: though I don't think they've actually come to fruition yet.

416
00:21:43,760 --> 00:21:46,160
Speaker 4: So I guess when you're thinking about healthcare, health care

417
00:21:46,200 --> 00:21:50,440
Speaker 4: itself is super broad, and then within that there's all

418
00:21:50,480 --> 00:21:55,480
Speaker 4: different kinds of companies, so hospitals, medical device companies, companies

419
00:21:55,520 --> 00:21:58,040
Speaker 4: that sell chemicals that are used in farmer companies that

420
00:21:58,119 --> 00:22:00,800
Speaker 4: sell tools that are used in farmer So all of

421
00:22:00,840 --> 00:22:03,439
Speaker 4: that kind of sets in the broader healthcare space. And

422
00:22:03,480 --> 00:22:06,120
Speaker 4: I think if you're thinking about getting a broad kind

423
00:22:06,119 --> 00:22:09,359
Speaker 4: of eatif exposure, maybe one way to get a sense

424
00:22:09,400 --> 00:22:12,400
Speaker 4: of what could be better is looking back at what's

425
00:22:12,400 --> 00:22:14,959
Speaker 4: happened over time. And if you look back over a

426
00:22:14,960 --> 00:22:18,080
Speaker 4: significant period of time, say twenty years, the s and

427
00:22:18,119 --> 00:22:22,119
Speaker 4: P five hundred index and the SMP Healthcare Index have

428
00:22:22,359 --> 00:22:25,960
Speaker 4: actually interestingly performed basically neck on neck, So they both

429
00:22:26,000 --> 00:22:28,879
Speaker 4: generated around a ten percent return per year over a

430
00:22:29,080 --> 00:22:32,960
Speaker 4: twenty year time horizon. If you look at farmer itself,

431
00:22:33,240 --> 00:22:37,600
Speaker 4: that generated around half a percent lower return, so around

432
00:22:37,680 --> 00:22:40,760
Speaker 4: nine and a half percent over that twenty year period

433
00:22:40,800 --> 00:22:43,800
Speaker 4: of time. But if you had managed to pick farmer

434
00:22:43,880 --> 00:22:48,399
Speaker 4: winner Novo or farmer Winner Eli Lilly over that period

435
00:22:48,400 --> 00:22:51,400
Speaker 4: of time, you would have generated I think from memory

436
00:22:51,440 --> 00:22:54,200
Speaker 4: it's around a sixteen percent return per ANIM and then

437
00:22:54,200 --> 00:22:56,840
Speaker 4: a twenty five percent return per ANIM. Picking a winner

438
00:22:57,200 --> 00:22:59,119
Speaker 4: can be great, but then if you're looking at a

439
00:22:59,160 --> 00:23:03,119
Speaker 4: diversified exposure, as she would suggest that rather than looking

440
00:23:03,160 --> 00:23:08,120
Speaker 4: for a narrow farmer exposure, a broader healthcare exposure would

441
00:23:08,160 --> 00:23:11,119
Speaker 4: be better. And then I think especially worth keeping in

442
00:23:11,160 --> 00:23:16,280
Speaker 4: mind with a diversified eatia for Farmer, you're likely to

443
00:23:16,359 --> 00:23:19,680
Speaker 4: have a higher exposure to the largest companies and they

444
00:23:19,920 --> 00:23:23,280
Speaker 4: may have a higher proportion of medicines that are coming

445
00:23:23,400 --> 00:23:26,800
Speaker 4: up to that loss of exclusivity and revenue and revenue

446
00:23:26,840 --> 00:23:28,880
Speaker 4: dropping off. So that's a really important thing to keep

447
00:23:28,920 --> 00:23:32,280
Speaker 4: in mind with Farmer itself, is what is that loss

448
00:23:32,280 --> 00:23:35,919
Speaker 4: of exclusivity burden and how does that sit across the

449
00:23:35,920 --> 00:23:37,920
Speaker 4: companies that are in that etf.

450
00:23:37,760 --> 00:23:40,640
Speaker 2: Well, we could talk for ages dead. There's so much

451
00:23:40,680 --> 00:23:43,520
Speaker 2: to unpack here, but look, thanks so much for your

452
00:23:43,560 --> 00:23:45,800
Speaker 2: insights today and coming in even though you have got

453
00:23:45,800 --> 00:23:46,240
Speaker 2: a cold.

454
00:23:46,520 --> 00:23:48,639
Speaker 4: Thanks so much for having me. It's been awesome to

455
00:23:48,640 --> 00:23:49,200
Speaker 4: be here.

456
00:23:49,240 --> 00:23:52,640
Speaker 2: And thanks to everyone for joining in. But before you go,

457
00:23:52,840 --> 00:23:55,920
Speaker 2: we'd be really keen if you could fill out our

458
00:23:56,040 --> 00:23:59,639
Speaker 2: audience survey, which you'll find in the show notes. Alne,

459
00:23:59,680 --> 00:24:02,000
Speaker 2: you take few minutes and you'll be in the drawer

460
00:24:02,119 --> 00:24:05,679
Speaker 2: to win fifty dollars to invest, So stay warm and

461
00:24:05,800 --> 00:24:08,520
Speaker 2: stay safe, and we'll see you next time on shed lunch.