1 00:00:05,720 --> 00:00:06,160 Speaker 1: Kyota. 2 00:00:06,200 --> 00:00:09,240 Speaker 2: I'm Chelsea Daniels and this is the Front Page, a 3 00:00:09,320 --> 00:00:16,560 Speaker 2: daily podcast presented by the New Zealand Herald. Move On 4 00:00:16,800 --> 00:00:20,760 Speaker 2: orders are being pitched as a way to reclaim town 5 00:00:20,920 --> 00:00:24,640 Speaker 2: and city centers. The government is proposing a law which 6 00:00:24,680 --> 00:00:28,360 Speaker 2: would allow police to order someone rough, sleeping or begging 7 00:00:28,440 --> 00:00:31,760 Speaker 2: to leave a public space for up to twenty four hours. 8 00:00:32,159 --> 00:00:35,120 Speaker 2: They could be fined up to two thousand dollars or 9 00:00:35,440 --> 00:00:38,599 Speaker 2: three months in jail if they don't. Critics say that 10 00:00:38,680 --> 00:00:43,800 Speaker 2: does nothing to create homes, risks, criminalizing poverty and simply 11 00:00:44,040 --> 00:00:47,800 Speaker 2: shifts people and the problem from one street or suburb 12 00:00:47,960 --> 00:00:51,400 Speaker 2: to another. Today on the Front Page, Community Housing ALTIROA 13 00:00:51,479 --> 00:00:55,000 Speaker 2: Chief executive Paul Gilbert joins us to talk about the 14 00:00:55,120 --> 00:01:03,040 Speaker 2: real impact on people experiencing homelessness. Paul, what was your 15 00:01:03,080 --> 00:01:06,119 Speaker 2: first reaction when the government announced this news. 16 00:01:06,440 --> 00:01:09,559 Speaker 3: I think disappointment would be the first word that would 17 00:01:09,560 --> 00:01:13,080 Speaker 3: come to mind. And I'm speaking as the see of 18 00:01:13,080 --> 00:01:15,280 Speaker 3: Community Housing art at All. We've got about one hundred 19 00:01:15,319 --> 00:01:18,919 Speaker 3: and sixty members across the country. We walk alongside another 20 00:01:19,040 --> 00:01:22,480 Speaker 3: organization which is called TEMTIPE, which is the Marti Independent 21 00:01:22,520 --> 00:01:26,039 Speaker 3: Marty Voice for Housing and so they have dozens and 22 00:01:26,120 --> 00:01:30,160 Speaker 3: dozens of groups and HARPERIWI that they work with as well. 23 00:01:30,200 --> 00:01:34,120 Speaker 3: So probably there's two hundred organizations that we represent, and 24 00:01:34,160 --> 00:01:38,680 Speaker 3: I think it's fair to say that we unanimously would 25 00:01:38,720 --> 00:01:43,440 Speaker 3: prefer to do what works instead move on legislation and enforcement. 26 00:01:43,560 --> 00:01:46,559 Speaker 3: Lead approaches don't work. They haven't worked anywhere in the world. 27 00:01:46,760 --> 00:01:49,240 Speaker 3: Take a look at the USA right now, where they 28 00:01:49,280 --> 00:01:53,440 Speaker 3: have mass encountments of people outside of town centers who've 29 00:01:53,440 --> 00:01:55,200 Speaker 3: been dumped in a field somewhere. 30 00:01:55,320 --> 00:01:58,520 Speaker 2: I mean so in terms of looking at the world 31 00:01:58,640 --> 00:02:01,320 Speaker 2: based evidence that we have at the moment, if you 32 00:02:01,400 --> 00:02:05,520 Speaker 2: look across to the US, like you say, it hasn't worked, 33 00:02:05,640 --> 00:02:09,200 Speaker 2: there is this Basically I saw Bernard Hecki actually write 34 00:02:09,200 --> 00:02:13,880 Speaker 2: in his latest column about this, being like, basically the 35 00:02:13,880 --> 00:02:16,120 Speaker 2: Prime Minister doesn't want Chuck and Mary getting off their 36 00:02:16,200 --> 00:02:19,160 Speaker 2: cruise ship and feeling intimidated by homeless people and looking 37 00:02:19,200 --> 00:02:21,919 Speaker 2: at homeless people next to a deaor store. So is 38 00:02:21,960 --> 00:02:25,080 Speaker 2: it basically we're just going to move them on because 39 00:02:25,120 --> 00:02:26,480 Speaker 2: we don't like seeing it. 40 00:02:26,720 --> 00:02:30,959 Speaker 3: Mentally, yes, that's the driver for this piece of legislation. 41 00:02:32,000 --> 00:02:37,680 Speaker 3: It doesn't just displace the people, it also displaces the 42 00:02:37,800 --> 00:02:41,919 Speaker 3: un needs that they have, so the problem doesn't go away. 43 00:02:41,960 --> 00:02:45,679 Speaker 3: We're not addressing the root cause here. There are multiple 44 00:02:45,800 --> 00:02:50,000 Speaker 3: root causes. I would sort of point listeners and viewers 45 00:02:50,000 --> 00:02:53,640 Speaker 3: in the direction of the cumulative deficit of the last 46 00:02:53,639 --> 00:02:58,640 Speaker 3: thirty five or forty years of our national underproduction and 47 00:02:58,800 --> 00:03:01,760 Speaker 3: under delivery of the ford housing for low and moderate 48 00:03:01,760 --> 00:03:05,800 Speaker 3: income households. So we've got a substantial cumulative deficit across 49 00:03:05,919 --> 00:03:08,880 Speaker 3: multiple governments that dates all the way back to the 50 00:03:08,919 --> 00:03:11,520 Speaker 3: reforms of the late nineteen eighties and early nineteen nineties. 51 00:03:11,520 --> 00:03:16,120 Speaker 3: So there's a lack of adequate low cost housing. But 52 00:03:16,240 --> 00:03:18,920 Speaker 3: then you need a layer on top of that the 53 00:03:18,960 --> 00:03:22,840 Speaker 3: health issues and the mental health issues, and the addiction 54 00:03:23,360 --> 00:03:26,720 Speaker 3: and the things like the methamphetamine epidemic that we have 55 00:03:27,240 --> 00:03:29,160 Speaker 3: in New Zealand at the moment that for many New 56 00:03:29,280 --> 00:03:32,800 Speaker 3: Zealanders is quite invisible and they're not aware of. And 57 00:03:32,840 --> 00:03:36,840 Speaker 3: so there's a lot of complexity in here. But displacing 58 00:03:36,880 --> 00:03:41,640 Speaker 3: it and avoiding dealing with the underlying root causes is 59 00:03:41,680 --> 00:03:42,920 Speaker 3: not going to make it go away. 60 00:03:43,160 --> 00:03:45,839 Speaker 2: What percentage do you think it would be that there 61 00:03:45,840 --> 00:03:50,800 Speaker 2: are genuine disorder incidents in the city, say so, you know, 62 00:03:51,200 --> 00:03:56,120 Speaker 2: affecting the public versus it's just not nice to look at. 63 00:03:56,720 --> 00:03:59,440 Speaker 3: So look, police up and down the country have been 64 00:03:59,440 --> 00:04:01,240 Speaker 3: doing a very a good job of this. I want 65 00:04:01,240 --> 00:04:04,560 Speaker 3: to put a shout out to our men and women 66 00:04:04,600 --> 00:04:07,440 Speaker 3: in blue who are on the beat and doing a 67 00:04:07,480 --> 00:04:13,280 Speaker 3: great job. And so there are many available tools in 68 00:04:13,320 --> 00:04:19,039 Speaker 3: the tool to address anti social behavior, assault, drug use, 69 00:04:20,040 --> 00:04:23,400 Speaker 3: local government by laws that control drinking in public spaces. 70 00:04:23,480 --> 00:04:28,200 Speaker 3: So all of those things have a threshold which allows 71 00:04:28,279 --> 00:04:32,240 Speaker 3: for police and security services to intervene if that threshold 72 00:04:32,240 --> 00:04:36,760 Speaker 3: has been crossed. We agree that all members of public 73 00:04:36,760 --> 00:04:39,320 Speaker 3: and people running businesses have the right to go about 74 00:04:39,400 --> 00:04:45,560 Speaker 3: their business unfitted and unmolested. Totally agree with that. However, 75 00:04:45,960 --> 00:04:51,680 Speaker 3: characterizing rough sleepers and homeless people as gangsters, as has 76 00:04:51,720 --> 00:04:55,720 Speaker 3: occurred in the last forty eight hours, with linking it 77 00:04:55,920 --> 00:05:00,480 Speaker 3: in some strange way to gang patches, we reject, reject 78 00:05:00,640 --> 00:05:04,920 Speaker 3: the mischaracterization of rough sleepers and homeless as a criminal element. 79 00:05:04,960 --> 00:05:09,479 Speaker 3: That's sure, there are occasions when that spills over, but 80 00:05:09,640 --> 00:05:12,360 Speaker 3: more often than not, what the police tell us is 81 00:05:12,400 --> 00:05:16,000 Speaker 3: happening is that it's often groups of people who've had 82 00:05:16,040 --> 00:05:18,520 Speaker 3: one too many, who are in town on a Friday 83 00:05:18,640 --> 00:05:24,480 Speaker 3: night and who are causing violence and issues. Often our 84 00:05:24,520 --> 00:05:28,400 Speaker 3: streety population are hiding from that cogwort because they're often 85 00:05:28,440 --> 00:05:31,039 Speaker 3: the victims of it. And so I think we need 86 00:05:31,120 --> 00:05:34,760 Speaker 3: to place these issues where they are and where they belong. 87 00:05:34,960 --> 00:05:41,160 Speaker 3: And we do not agree with the blanket characterization of 88 00:05:41,720 --> 00:05:44,520 Speaker 3: poor people and rough sleepers and homeless people as a 89 00:05:44,560 --> 00:05:48,480 Speaker 3: criminal issue. It's a health issue, it's a housing issue, 90 00:05:48,520 --> 00:05:52,360 Speaker 3: it's a mental health issue. There are other more effective 91 00:05:52,360 --> 00:05:57,000 Speaker 3: ways of approaching it that we've proven very very good 92 00:05:57,040 --> 00:05:59,599 Speaker 3: ways of helping people get off the streets, and there's 93 00:05:59,640 --> 00:06:02,760 Speaker 3: no better example than the Housing First program and the 94 00:06:02,800 --> 00:06:06,840 Speaker 3: outreach services that our providers deliver in conjunction. I should 95 00:06:06,920 --> 00:06:11,240 Speaker 3: mention with the police and with council staff across the country. 96 00:06:16,960 --> 00:06:18,480 Speaker 1: This has been a problem for us for a long 97 00:06:18,480 --> 00:06:21,120 Speaker 1: time as a country, as we continue to see people 98 00:06:21,440 --> 00:06:24,240 Speaker 1: that choose to make the pavements somewhere they want to live, 99 00:06:24,960 --> 00:06:27,640 Speaker 1: and not only is it a safety issue for them, 100 00:06:28,360 --> 00:06:31,719 Speaker 1: it's a big safety issue for the residents, for the 101 00:06:31,720 --> 00:06:34,000 Speaker 1: people that want to come into our CBDs and enjoy them, 102 00:06:34,279 --> 00:06:37,280 Speaker 1: for those people that try to run businesses and their employees. 103 00:06:37,880 --> 00:06:39,480 Speaker 1: And so there was a gap in the way that 104 00:06:39,520 --> 00:06:41,839 Speaker 1: we were able to actually deal with that. And I 105 00:06:41,880 --> 00:06:44,680 Speaker 1: think that the move on order it's not a panacea. 106 00:06:44,720 --> 00:06:47,080 Speaker 1: It takes a whole lot of different actions to be 107 00:06:47,080 --> 00:06:49,480 Speaker 1: able to deal with these issues. But this is one 108 00:06:49,480 --> 00:06:51,680 Speaker 1: of the actions that we think is going to make 109 00:06:51,680 --> 00:06:54,680 Speaker 1: a big difference to making sure that we don't have 110 00:06:54,800 --> 00:06:58,440 Speaker 1: people living on our pavements and on our streets. 111 00:07:00,480 --> 00:07:03,720 Speaker 2: What are some overseas examples that have actually worked. 112 00:07:04,200 --> 00:07:09,920 Speaker 3: Okay, so let's start with housing first. Now that's funnily enough, 113 00:07:11,000 --> 00:07:13,520 Speaker 3: it's written on the pan what it is. It's a philosophy, 114 00:07:13,720 --> 00:07:16,320 Speaker 3: first of all, which says that if you've got people 115 00:07:16,320 --> 00:07:20,800 Speaker 3: that are in need, if you put them in an adequate, warm, 116 00:07:20,880 --> 00:07:24,800 Speaker 3: dry harm first, you then have a stable platform upon 117 00:07:24,880 --> 00:07:27,040 Speaker 3: which to deliver other services that may or may not 118 00:07:27,080 --> 00:07:30,400 Speaker 3: be needed. So housing first started in North America many 119 00:07:30,480 --> 00:07:35,520 Speaker 3: years ago. We as Community Housing, Alto and other providers 120 00:07:35,520 --> 00:07:38,600 Speaker 3: were involved in bringing SAM who set it up in 121 00:07:38,640 --> 00:07:42,640 Speaker 3: Canada and the US, to New Zealand. It's been operating 122 00:07:42,640 --> 00:07:45,200 Speaker 3: here very successfully for a number of years as a program, 123 00:07:45,280 --> 00:07:48,200 Speaker 3: and effectively, what it does is it goes out into 124 00:07:48,280 --> 00:07:52,200 Speaker 3: the community, out onto the streets. It engages with streets 125 00:07:52,240 --> 00:07:55,280 Speaker 3: and rough sleepers where they are it brings them into 126 00:07:55,440 --> 00:07:58,520 Speaker 3: a system of stability which starts with a house and 127 00:07:58,560 --> 00:08:02,000 Speaker 3: then provides additional is around health and mental health and 128 00:08:02,280 --> 00:08:04,880 Speaker 3: other things that need to be addressed from the stable 129 00:08:04,920 --> 00:08:08,240 Speaker 3: base of a home. And so that's working, and in 130 00:08:08,280 --> 00:08:10,840 Speaker 3: fact this government has acknowledged it's working because they've just 131 00:08:10,920 --> 00:08:15,000 Speaker 3: invested more in it quite recently and that money has 132 00:08:15,040 --> 00:08:20,480 Speaker 3: now been deployed admittedly only across christ Church, Hamilton, Wellington 133 00:08:20,520 --> 00:08:24,520 Speaker 3: and Auckland, but it's been delivering really great outcomes. So 134 00:08:24,560 --> 00:08:28,840 Speaker 3: that's one example that's here in New Zealand, proven tested 135 00:08:29,480 --> 00:08:33,080 Speaker 3: and can be scaled. And another example is in Wales. 136 00:08:33,400 --> 00:08:35,960 Speaker 3: They've kind of been leading the charge and I think 137 00:08:36,000 --> 00:08:38,320 Speaker 3: it's worth mentioning this because what they've achieved is a 138 00:08:38,360 --> 00:08:42,640 Speaker 3: substantial and sustained reduction in homelessness in Wales and it 139 00:08:42,760 --> 00:08:46,080 Speaker 3: started with the Housing Wales at twenty fourteen, so they've 140 00:08:46,120 --> 00:08:49,000 Speaker 3: got ten years of solid data now to show the 141 00:08:49,120 --> 00:08:52,200 Speaker 3: permanent reduction. There was obviously some issues with COVID, but 142 00:08:52,600 --> 00:08:57,360 Speaker 3: they've sustained a reduction and that really puts the onus 143 00:08:57,360 --> 00:09:01,880 Speaker 3: on particularly the agencies of the state, not to discharge 144 00:09:02,040 --> 00:09:04,880 Speaker 3: or release people into homelessness. And it's called a duty 145 00:09:04,880 --> 00:09:08,160 Speaker 3: of care and a duty to assist, and then there's 146 00:09:08,200 --> 00:09:10,920 Speaker 3: another duty underneath that, which they've just reinforced with some 147 00:09:10,960 --> 00:09:14,920 Speaker 3: additional legislation this year in Wales which says, if you've 148 00:09:14,920 --> 00:09:18,359 Speaker 3: got someone in hospital or in prison or in residential 149 00:09:18,520 --> 00:09:25,079 Speaker 3: psychiatric healthcare, for example, don't discharge them into homelessness. Kind 150 00:09:25,080 --> 00:09:28,400 Speaker 3: of makes sense, right, because then you're enough. Yeah, So 151 00:09:28,640 --> 00:09:30,840 Speaker 3: at the moment, just to tell you what is still 152 00:09:30,880 --> 00:09:33,360 Speaker 3: happening in New Zealand, as the paddy wagon turns up 153 00:09:33,360 --> 00:09:35,640 Speaker 3: and releases prisoners with a few hundred bucks in their 154 00:09:35,640 --> 00:09:40,679 Speaker 3: pocket and no accommodation nowhere to live, it doesn't take 155 00:09:40,760 --> 00:09:43,520 Speaker 3: much imagination to realize what's going to happen in that situation. 156 00:09:44,080 --> 00:09:47,920 Speaker 3: And so the Welsh have built a really robust system 157 00:09:48,000 --> 00:09:50,200 Speaker 3: that has proven to work now over a period of 158 00:09:50,240 --> 00:09:54,280 Speaker 3: more than ten years of Actually, let's get a housing 159 00:09:54,320 --> 00:09:56,480 Speaker 3: plan in place if we're going to discharge people from 160 00:09:56,480 --> 00:09:59,600 Speaker 3: hospital who are really sick. Otherwise we're just going to 161 00:09:59,600 --> 00:10:01,360 Speaker 3: have to try them again. They'll turn up back in 162 00:10:01,400 --> 00:10:03,840 Speaker 3: the A and E, or they'll turn up in corrections. 163 00:10:04,640 --> 00:10:07,680 Speaker 3: And that's between five hundred dollars a night and one 164 00:10:07,720 --> 00:10:10,760 Speaker 3: thousand dollars a night. Why wouldn't we do the sensible 165 00:10:10,800 --> 00:10:14,960 Speaker 3: economic thing and the ethically correct thing and get a 166 00:10:15,000 --> 00:10:17,280 Speaker 3: housing plan in place, which is much lower cost, and 167 00:10:17,360 --> 00:10:18,520 Speaker 3: it's also the right thing to do. 168 00:10:19,679 --> 00:10:21,960 Speaker 2: It's interesting you bring that up because we've done on 169 00:10:22,000 --> 00:10:24,320 Speaker 2: the show a couple of times we've spoken about autoing 170 00:10:24,320 --> 00:10:27,440 Speaker 2: a tambariki and similarly, they don't have a duty of care. 171 00:10:27,520 --> 00:10:30,400 Speaker 2: So once a kid turns eighteen, they're sent off with 172 00:10:30,440 --> 00:10:32,920 Speaker 2: a few hundred bucks in their pocket and that's all. 173 00:10:33,040 --> 00:10:36,440 Speaker 2: So we're really not very good at the duty of 174 00:10:36,559 --> 00:10:37,120 Speaker 2: care thing. 175 00:10:37,280 --> 00:10:41,080 Speaker 3: Hey, there's a lot of really good people, you know, 176 00:10:41,080 --> 00:10:44,000 Speaker 3: if I'm honest with you, there's some really great people 177 00:10:44,160 --> 00:10:47,360 Speaker 3: in MSD, in the Ministry of Health and all our hospitals, 178 00:10:47,400 --> 00:10:51,320 Speaker 3: with our police, with our nurses. But our system at 179 00:10:51,360 --> 00:10:54,000 Speaker 3: the moment is not very well integrated. And what we're 180 00:10:54,040 --> 00:10:56,880 Speaker 3: experiencing at the moment and what's turning up visibly on 181 00:10:56,920 --> 00:10:59,120 Speaker 3: the streets, although by the way it's the tip of 182 00:10:59,160 --> 00:11:02,839 Speaker 3: an iceberg, is a much larger number of people who 183 00:11:02,880 --> 00:11:07,240 Speaker 3: are what we're call invisible homeless, who are sofa surfing 184 00:11:07,520 --> 00:11:11,360 Speaker 3: in grossly overoccupied dwellings, etc. But what we're seeing is 185 00:11:11,480 --> 00:11:15,199 Speaker 3: people slipping through the gaps and so in some ways, 186 00:11:15,480 --> 00:11:17,960 Speaker 3: even at the same level of resourcing that we're putting 187 00:11:17,960 --> 00:11:21,559 Speaker 3: in right now across health and social services and housing, 188 00:11:22,120 --> 00:11:24,400 Speaker 3: if we just connected a little bit more. And that's 189 00:11:24,400 --> 00:11:26,280 Speaker 3: where the Welsh are onto a really smart thing where 190 00:11:26,280 --> 00:11:29,200 Speaker 3: there's a duty to collaborate. What they're really saying is 191 00:11:29,280 --> 00:11:32,240 Speaker 3: you guys need to talk to each other before you 192 00:11:32,360 --> 00:11:36,200 Speaker 3: release or discharge somebody, because we actually have some really 193 00:11:36,280 --> 00:11:38,840 Speaker 3: good systems, some really good people, and some really good 194 00:11:38,880 --> 00:11:42,280 Speaker 3: programs and solutions that are running. But sometimes people are 195 00:11:42,280 --> 00:11:44,760 Speaker 3: falling through the gaps and now they're spilling onto the street. 196 00:11:45,000 --> 00:11:48,040 Speaker 2: Do you think there's a real sense I think that 197 00:11:48,240 --> 00:11:51,600 Speaker 2: the messaging is not great right because I've seen the police. 198 00:11:51,600 --> 00:11:55,439 Speaker 2: Minister Mark Mitchell has explained it on z B this morning, saying, look, 199 00:11:55,520 --> 00:11:58,920 Speaker 2: the government's hoping that more of these move on orders 200 00:11:59,040 --> 00:12:03,439 Speaker 2: will nudge homeless people and rough sleepers towards social services. 201 00:12:03,480 --> 00:12:06,920 Speaker 2: Now that's all well and good, but it doesn't really 202 00:12:06,920 --> 00:12:10,960 Speaker 2: work in practice. And the messaging around this is yay 203 00:12:11,080 --> 00:12:14,040 Speaker 2: for businesses. You're not going to have any disruptions or 204 00:12:14,160 --> 00:12:16,080 Speaker 2: city centers or you're not going to see this in 205 00:12:16,120 --> 00:12:18,280 Speaker 2: the street. Do you think that the AA they should 206 00:12:18,280 --> 00:12:22,679 Speaker 2: have been more focused on rough sleepers when they come 207 00:12:22,720 --> 00:12:25,240 Speaker 2: out with this and be what would you say to 208 00:12:25,600 --> 00:12:29,679 Speaker 2: a shop owner who is happy about this decision, who 209 00:12:29,760 --> 00:12:33,720 Speaker 2: has had rough sleepers outside their door every morning and 210 00:12:33,840 --> 00:12:35,680 Speaker 2: is genuinely worried for their safety. 211 00:12:36,320 --> 00:12:39,679 Speaker 3: Yeah, I mean, we're all in this together, and like you, 212 00:12:40,240 --> 00:12:43,960 Speaker 3: I listened to the release and saw Paul Goldsmith and 213 00:12:44,000 --> 00:12:47,600 Speaker 3: Mark Mitchell and Simeon Brown they're talking to it. I 214 00:12:47,600 --> 00:12:50,319 Speaker 3: think they were in Auckland yesterday when they did their 215 00:12:50,320 --> 00:12:54,520 Speaker 3: stand up out. Reflection and observation has been that the 216 00:12:54,520 --> 00:12:57,080 Speaker 3: police are doing a really good job and what is 217 00:12:57,200 --> 00:13:01,000 Speaker 3: most effective is when we're working to get and so 218 00:13:01,280 --> 00:13:04,640 Speaker 3: to that shopkeeper, I would I would again say, hey, 219 00:13:04,720 --> 00:13:07,959 Speaker 3: let's do more of what works and what's been working 220 00:13:08,080 --> 00:13:11,160 Speaker 3: for a number of months now across many urban centers. 221 00:13:12,240 --> 00:13:14,160 Speaker 3: I think the rest of New Zealand must get a 222 00:13:14,200 --> 00:13:15,920 Speaker 3: little bit tired of Auckland because there's a lot of 223 00:13:15,920 --> 00:13:19,520 Speaker 3: talk about Auckland. But Auckland is a good example because 224 00:13:19,559 --> 00:13:23,559 Speaker 3: council staff and our providers, our outreach providers have been 225 00:13:23,679 --> 00:13:28,840 Speaker 3: going on joint visits and connecting with rough sleepers and 226 00:13:28,880 --> 00:13:33,160 Speaker 3: streets where they are and getting them at scale into 227 00:13:33,160 --> 00:13:36,960 Speaker 3: some awesome innovations, particularly like the day program for example, 228 00:13:37,000 --> 00:13:39,760 Speaker 3: that is running that. We've got various day programs where 229 00:13:40,120 --> 00:13:42,760 Speaker 3: there are safe places for streets and rough sleepers to 230 00:13:42,800 --> 00:13:47,679 Speaker 3: be during the day, to sleep unmolested and to do 231 00:13:47,760 --> 00:13:50,160 Speaker 3: some creative stuff. Do some art, do some music, do 232 00:13:50,240 --> 00:13:52,719 Speaker 3: some do some do some other things, and most of 233 00:13:52,760 --> 00:13:55,520 Speaker 3: them will be together in a safe place. Because you 234 00:13:55,640 --> 00:13:57,599 Speaker 3: might not know it, but there's a really strong community 235 00:13:58,000 --> 00:14:00,400 Speaker 3: within the rough sleeping and street community and and it's 236 00:14:00,400 --> 00:14:02,600 Speaker 3: important for them as it is for all of us 237 00:14:02,960 --> 00:14:05,960 Speaker 3: to spend time with each other socializing. And so don't 238 00:14:06,000 --> 00:14:08,120 Speaker 3: be afraid to get on the phone and call one 239 00:14:08,160 --> 00:14:12,080 Speaker 3: of our providers if you've got a concern, and we'll respond. 240 00:14:12,440 --> 00:14:15,000 Speaker 3: We have outreach teams and we can come and help 241 00:14:15,840 --> 00:14:18,679 Speaker 3: meet people where they are and to the shopkeeper that 242 00:14:18,760 --> 00:14:23,480 Speaker 3: might be on the front door of your shop. But 243 00:14:24,280 --> 00:14:27,840 Speaker 3: enforcement lad approaches that just displace the problem and keep 244 00:14:27,880 --> 00:14:30,920 Speaker 3: the can down the road are not the way to go. 245 00:14:31,040 --> 00:14:40,040 Speaker 3: Let's do what works instead. I mean that being one 246 00:14:40,440 --> 00:14:41,640 Speaker 3: is legally know. 247 00:14:43,080 --> 00:14:46,280 Speaker 4: What we're criminalizing is a refusal to follow a move 248 00:14:46,360 --> 00:14:49,960 Speaker 4: on order. So when police come along and say to somebody, 249 00:14:50,680 --> 00:14:54,400 Speaker 4: if you're being disorderly or doing one of the behaviors 250 00:14:54,440 --> 00:14:57,080 Speaker 4: that's outlined with this legislation, and you refuse to comply, 251 00:14:57,720 --> 00:14:58,920 Speaker 4: then you can be arrested. 252 00:14:59,440 --> 00:15:00,720 Speaker 1: What apps what is the. 253 00:15:00,840 --> 00:15:04,760 Speaker 3: Pigs is that they're rough sleeping somewhere and they're told 254 00:15:04,800 --> 00:15:06,520 Speaker 3: to move on. Does that mean the fact that they 255 00:15:06,520 --> 00:15:08,760 Speaker 3: were just rough sleeping is not allowed? 256 00:15:09,840 --> 00:15:13,080 Speaker 4: Well, what is criminalized is refusing to follow a move 257 00:15:13,200 --> 00:15:16,160 Speaker 4: on order. And that's what we're trying to do. We're 258 00:15:16,160 --> 00:15:19,080 Speaker 4: wanting to reclaim the seats are the streets of our 259 00:15:19,080 --> 00:15:21,440 Speaker 4: city for the enjoyment of people who come and live 260 00:15:21,480 --> 00:15:22,280 Speaker 4: here and work here. 261 00:15:24,720 --> 00:15:27,960 Speaker 2: I see these comments online and this is a conversation 262 00:15:28,040 --> 00:15:31,400 Speaker 2: that's being had time and time and time again. But 263 00:15:31,680 --> 00:15:37,920 Speaker 2: I'm seeing a lot less compassion for rough sleepers right 264 00:15:38,040 --> 00:15:41,800 Speaker 2: I'm seeing more people just be bothered that they have 265 00:15:41,920 --> 00:15:45,240 Speaker 2: to walk past someone in a blanket on their way 266 00:15:45,280 --> 00:15:49,000 Speaker 2: to work every morning. I'm seeing people, you know, frustrated 267 00:15:49,040 --> 00:15:51,760 Speaker 2: that they pay taxes, and people in the street begging 268 00:15:51,880 --> 00:15:55,520 Speaker 2: or window washing or what have you don't have to do. 269 00:15:55,560 --> 00:15:58,000 Speaker 2: You think that we just need to become more compassionate 270 00:15:58,080 --> 00:16:00,840 Speaker 2: towards each other and understand and at the end of 271 00:16:00,880 --> 00:16:03,680 Speaker 2: the day, one wrong turn, this could be you. 272 00:16:04,240 --> 00:16:07,080 Speaker 3: Yeah, I think a couple of really good points you've 273 00:16:07,080 --> 00:16:11,560 Speaker 3: made there, and many many New Zealanders are one life 274 00:16:11,640 --> 00:16:16,520 Speaker 3: event away from this sort of possibility being in their future. 275 00:16:16,920 --> 00:16:19,680 Speaker 3: There are now over one hundred and eighty thousand households 276 00:16:19,720 --> 00:16:22,680 Speaker 3: that's not people. So a family is a household of 277 00:16:22,720 --> 00:16:24,960 Speaker 3: five maybe, or it could be someone living on their own. 278 00:16:25,040 --> 00:16:28,560 Speaker 3: There are over one hundred and eighty thousand households across 279 00:16:28,560 --> 00:16:31,160 Speaker 3: the whole of New Zealand who are now paying over 280 00:16:31,240 --> 00:16:34,960 Speaker 3: thirty forty fifty percent even up to seventy and eighty 281 00:16:35,000 --> 00:16:38,880 Speaker 3: percent of their income on rent. And so one thing 282 00:16:38,960 --> 00:16:41,160 Speaker 3: goes wrong for you, the car breaks down, you can't 283 00:16:41,200 --> 00:16:44,280 Speaker 3: get to work, you lose your job out, you spell, 284 00:16:44,680 --> 00:16:46,440 Speaker 3: and so it could be you, it could be me, 285 00:16:46,680 --> 00:16:48,720 Speaker 3: It could be any of us. And I think that's 286 00:16:48,720 --> 00:16:52,280 Speaker 3: a helpful reference point for people when they are having 287 00:16:52,320 --> 00:16:55,640 Speaker 3: that awkward moment on the street of walking past a 288 00:16:55,720 --> 00:17:00,600 Speaker 3: rough sleeper. Just to reflect on compassion is huge important 289 00:17:00,640 --> 00:17:04,920 Speaker 3: and we're at a critical juncture I think now, as 290 00:17:05,160 --> 00:17:09,560 Speaker 3: human beings in Altia or in New Zealand, considering what 291 00:17:09,720 --> 00:17:11,440 Speaker 3: sort of a place we want to live in. Because 292 00:17:11,440 --> 00:17:13,359 Speaker 3: if you want to view of the future, go to 293 00:17:13,359 --> 00:17:16,400 Speaker 3: the States and see what enforcement lead approaches have led 294 00:17:16,440 --> 00:17:18,840 Speaker 3: to there, which is an I interviewed a professor from 295 00:17:19,240 --> 00:17:22,199 Speaker 3: the University of Texas on this last week. They have 296 00:17:22,320 --> 00:17:26,239 Speaker 3: these huge encampments just outside of towns and cities all 297 00:17:26,320 --> 00:17:28,879 Speaker 3: over the country. We have the beginnings of one of 298 00:17:28,880 --> 00:17:31,120 Speaker 3: those in the Red Zone in christ Church now where 299 00:17:31,160 --> 00:17:34,159 Speaker 3: a lot of streats and homeless people are beginning to 300 00:17:34,240 --> 00:17:38,080 Speaker 3: build an encampment. Is that the sort of society we 301 00:17:38,160 --> 00:17:41,040 Speaker 3: want to be and want to live in? And I 302 00:17:41,080 --> 00:17:45,439 Speaker 3: think it's important for all New Zealanders to understand that 303 00:17:45,520 --> 00:17:48,800 Speaker 3: homelessness is a political choice. We made a bunch of 304 00:17:48,960 --> 00:17:51,679 Speaker 3: choices over the last thirty five years in terms of 305 00:17:51,720 --> 00:17:54,960 Speaker 3: our policies and our funding settings, and this is the 306 00:17:55,000 --> 00:17:57,199 Speaker 3: fruit of those choices that we've made, and we have 307 00:17:57,320 --> 00:18:01,320 Speaker 3: the power and the resources to make different choices. It's 308 00:18:01,359 --> 00:18:03,160 Speaker 3: really up to us, but it's up to all of us, 309 00:18:03,960 --> 00:18:06,200 Speaker 3: not just community housing providers in the police. 310 00:18:06,359 --> 00:18:08,000 Speaker 2: Thanks for joining us, Paul, so. 311 00:18:08,040 --> 00:18:09,320 Speaker 3: It please to Chelsea anytime. 312 00:18:12,640 --> 00:18:15,760 Speaker 2: That's it for this episode of the Front Page. You 313 00:18:15,800 --> 00:18:19,520 Speaker 2: can read more about today's stories and extensive news coverage 314 00:18:19,600 --> 00:18:23,240 Speaker 2: at enzidherld dot co dot enz The front page is 315 00:18:23,280 --> 00:18:27,280 Speaker 2: hosted and produced by me Chelsea Daniels Caine. Dicky is 316 00:18:27,320 --> 00:18:31,479 Speaker 2: our studio operator, Richard Martin, our producer and editor, and 317 00:18:31,520 --> 00:18:35,439 Speaker 2: our executive producer is Jane Ye. Follow the Front Page 318 00:18:35,480 --> 00:18:38,480 Speaker 2: on the iHeart app or wherever you get your podcasts, 319 00:18:38,800 --> 00:18:42,840 Speaker 2: and join us next time for another look beyond the headlines.