1 00:00:00,080 --> 00:00:02,680 Speaker 1: You report from the Ministerial Advisory Group on Organized Crime. 2 00:00:02,720 --> 00:00:04,160 Speaker 1: This is the third one. Turns out we're not as 3 00:00:04,200 --> 00:00:07,000 Speaker 1: free of corruption as we might think. There's a warning 4 00:00:07,040 --> 00:00:11,000 Speaker 1: around bribery and coercion of police and immigration officials. Now 5 00:00:11,000 --> 00:00:13,720 Speaker 1: Steve Simon of Courses, the chair of this Ministerial Advisory Group, 6 00:00:13,760 --> 00:00:14,400 Speaker 1: and he's back with us. 7 00:00:14,440 --> 00:00:15,640 Speaker 2: Morning, Good morning to you mate. 8 00:00:15,840 --> 00:00:19,280 Speaker 1: This growing body of evidence quote unquote that you find, 9 00:00:19,320 --> 00:00:22,400 Speaker 1: what is it? 10 00:00:21,920 --> 00:00:27,240 Speaker 2: It's from everywhere. What we're seeing is talking to the 11 00:00:27,240 --> 00:00:31,800 Speaker 2: most senior officials in our government enforcement agencies. We're talking 12 00:00:31,840 --> 00:00:37,199 Speaker 2: to former gang members, we're talking to frontline staff. Everywhere 13 00:00:37,240 --> 00:00:41,160 Speaker 2: we look. We're seeing this problem of organized crime, and 14 00:00:41,200 --> 00:00:46,040 Speaker 2: we're seeing it seep into all areas of business which 15 00:00:46,120 --> 00:00:49,440 Speaker 2: deal with the potential for drugs coming into the country. 16 00:00:49,800 --> 00:00:52,000 Speaker 1: Are we a corrupt nation or is that going over 17 00:00:52,040 --> 00:00:52,400 Speaker 1: the top? 18 00:00:54,200 --> 00:00:58,160 Speaker 2: We are a country that's become incorrupt. We were proudly 19 00:00:59,160 --> 00:01:01,760 Speaker 2: the number one country in the world in terms of 20 00:01:01,880 --> 00:01:05,440 Speaker 2: the least amount of corruption. We've dropped down to number four, 21 00:01:05,480 --> 00:01:09,080 Speaker 2: and we're unfortunately trending in the wrong direction. But more 22 00:01:09,120 --> 00:01:12,040 Speaker 2: than that, I think what we're seeing is we used 23 00:01:12,080 --> 00:01:14,240 Speaker 2: to be a country where I think we genuinely could 24 00:01:14,680 --> 00:01:18,120 Speaker 2: trust one another to keep up the values of our country, 25 00:01:18,440 --> 00:01:20,520 Speaker 2: and sadly, I think it's being eroded. 26 00:01:20,400 --> 00:01:23,080 Speaker 1: When we use the word corruption, Are you sure of 27 00:01:23,120 --> 00:01:24,959 Speaker 1: what you're onto? In other words, when you talk to 28 00:01:24,959 --> 00:01:26,959 Speaker 1: an ext gang member and they're going to god knows 29 00:01:26,959 --> 00:01:29,959 Speaker 1: what they're going to say, So you're confident of what 30 00:01:30,000 --> 00:01:33,160 Speaker 1: you're discovering here that we are increasingly corrupt. 31 00:01:34,480 --> 00:01:37,880 Speaker 2: Yes, If we talk to our most senior officials and 32 00:01:37,920 --> 00:01:40,679 Speaker 2: the police and customs and we ask them of the 33 00:01:40,760 --> 00:01:46,199 Speaker 2: large scale drug importations, of the large scale illegal tobacco importations, 34 00:01:46,600 --> 00:01:49,240 Speaker 2: how many of them involve a corrupt official? It is 35 00:01:49,280 --> 00:01:52,480 Speaker 2: by far the vast majority of those cases. Wow, the 36 00:01:52,560 --> 00:01:55,520 Speaker 2: organized crime could not work in New Zealand without the 37 00:01:55,560 --> 00:01:57,600 Speaker 2: benefit of corrupt insiders. 38 00:01:58,000 --> 00:01:59,880 Speaker 1: Is it on the inside of the border? In other words, 39 00:02:00,040 --> 00:02:02,280 Speaker 1: I can see the port, the airport, I get all 40 00:02:02,280 --> 00:02:05,120 Speaker 1: of that. I see the Pacific, But beyond that, are 41 00:02:05,160 --> 00:02:07,000 Speaker 1: we corrupt internally? So to speak? 42 00:02:08,240 --> 00:02:11,560 Speaker 2: It's a very good point, Mike. It starts at the border, 43 00:02:12,040 --> 00:02:16,160 Speaker 2: but we are now seeing it trending into immigration advisors, 44 00:02:16,960 --> 00:02:23,080 Speaker 2: into lawyers, into accountants, into police officials, and so what 45 00:02:23,120 --> 00:02:25,480 Speaker 2: we're seeing is it's starting to follow a trend which 46 00:02:25,480 --> 00:02:28,120 Speaker 2: we're seen in other countries around the world, where it 47 00:02:28,120 --> 00:02:30,880 Speaker 2: begins at your ports because it's the most valuable, and 48 00:02:30,919 --> 00:02:35,000 Speaker 2: then works into all levels of organization of our nation. 49 00:02:35,560 --> 00:02:38,000 Speaker 1: These reports your third one, now that you're handing to 50 00:02:38,280 --> 00:02:41,520 Speaker 1: Minister Costello, her eyes bulging out of her head yet 51 00:02:41,600 --> 00:02:43,200 Speaker 1: or did she sort of know this anyway? 52 00:02:45,040 --> 00:02:48,880 Speaker 2: A bit of both. I think for anyone, anyone who's 53 00:02:48,919 --> 00:02:51,760 Speaker 2: been doing this a long time, you expect the problem 54 00:02:51,760 --> 00:02:56,040 Speaker 2: to be bad. Minister Costell obviously had a long career 55 00:02:56,080 --> 00:02:58,359 Speaker 2: in the police and so she knows some of the 56 00:02:58,400 --> 00:03:01,600 Speaker 2: depth of the problem. But I think either for myself 57 00:03:01,639 --> 00:03:06,280 Speaker 2: as a prosecutor for two decades, even I'm surprised at 58 00:03:06,280 --> 00:03:08,920 Speaker 2: some of the stories we are hearing and the gravity 59 00:03:08,960 --> 00:03:10,079 Speaker 2: of the problem as it is now. 60 00:03:10,000 --> 00:03:12,280 Speaker 1: All right, sobering, how good? Maybe on we'll get you 61 00:03:12,280 --> 00:03:14,000 Speaker 1: on for a reporting number four. Steve Simon, chair of 62 00:03:14,000 --> 00:03:15,520 Speaker 1: the Ministerial Advisory Group. 63 00:03:15,960 --> 00:03:18,880 Speaker 2: For more from the Mic Asking Breakfast, listen live to 64 00:03:19,000 --> 00:03:19,520 Speaker 2: news talks. 65 00:03:19,560 --> 00:03:22,760 Speaker 1: It'd be from six am weekdays, or follow the podcast 66 00:03:22,800 --> 00:03:23,679 Speaker 1: on iHeartRadio.