1 00:00:00,600 --> 00:00:03,560 Speaker 1: Heither du for ce Ellen. The interview she's given is 2 00:00:03,600 --> 00:00:06,800 Speaker 1: actually with John Campbell from TV and Z. You're going 3 00:00:06,840 --> 00:00:08,000 Speaker 1: to want to hear it. I'm going to play your 4 00:00:08,039 --> 00:00:10,600 Speaker 1: bits and just to take it to eleven past four. Now, 5 00:00:10,600 --> 00:00:13,280 Speaker 1: the number of whistleblowers is apparently on the rise over 6 00:00:13,280 --> 00:00:15,680 Speaker 1: the last couple of years. The Chief Onbardsman says he's 7 00:00:15,680 --> 00:00:17,720 Speaker 1: seen a big rise in the number of people making 8 00:00:17,760 --> 00:00:20,799 Speaker 1: reports of serious wrongdoing in the workplace and also of 9 00:00:20,840 --> 00:00:23,680 Speaker 1: protective disclosures. Peter Bowsher is obviously the chief Onbardsman and 10 00:00:23,720 --> 00:00:27,000 Speaker 1: with us now he Peter, good afternoon here, though, why 11 00:00:27,080 --> 00:00:28,200 Speaker 1: do you reckon it's going up? 12 00:00:29,920 --> 00:00:32,080 Speaker 2: I think there are a couple of reasons. In twenty 13 00:00:32,200 --> 00:00:37,400 Speaker 2: twenty two the government knew that whistle blowing legislation needed 14 00:00:37,400 --> 00:00:39,519 Speaker 2: to be beefed up. So it's clear now and I 15 00:00:39,520 --> 00:00:42,920 Speaker 2: think people can have more confidence than it. The other thing, too, 16 00:00:43,000 --> 00:00:45,839 Speaker 2: I think is that when you look back at Harvey 17 00:00:45,880 --> 00:00:48,960 Speaker 2: Weinstein and the Me Too movement, there is a feeling 18 00:00:49,040 --> 00:00:51,800 Speaker 2: now that it's the right thing to do to bring 19 00:00:51,880 --> 00:00:55,400 Speaker 2: to the surface when there's serious wrongdoing, things such as 20 00:00:55,520 --> 00:00:58,720 Speaker 2: sexual harassment. I think there's more willingness to talk about 21 00:00:58,720 --> 00:01:00,520 Speaker 2: these things and to raise them. 22 00:01:00,760 --> 00:01:03,840 Speaker 1: Yes, so almost a greater understanding that if you are 23 00:01:03,840 --> 00:01:06,520 Speaker 1: suffering or seeing the thing, it's not just you yourself 24 00:01:06,560 --> 00:01:08,080 Speaker 1: you're protecting, but it's others as well. 25 00:01:09,560 --> 00:01:12,440 Speaker 2: I think that's right. And I think that the recent 26 00:01:12,600 --> 00:01:16,040 Speaker 2: case we've seen, it's just in the media yesterday and 27 00:01:16,120 --> 00:01:20,160 Speaker 2: today about the ben Z under lady who's had the 28 00:01:20,360 --> 00:01:24,960 Speaker 2: enormous courage to go through years of complaining about how 29 00:01:25,000 --> 00:01:27,120 Speaker 2: she was treated as a result of a whisker by 30 00:01:27,160 --> 00:01:31,000 Speaker 2: a complaint has recited justice from the Employment Relations phociety. 31 00:01:31,360 --> 00:01:34,400 Speaker 2: I think that's really good. It's an indictator. Although this 32 00:01:34,560 --> 00:01:39,440 Speaker 2: can be really hard and taxing and probably promoting anxiety, 33 00:01:39,840 --> 00:01:42,640 Speaker 2: in the end, it can be safe and you can 34 00:01:42,680 --> 00:01:43,840 Speaker 2: get justice. Yeah. 35 00:01:43,840 --> 00:01:45,240 Speaker 1: I was actually going to ask you about that, Peter, 36 00:01:45,319 --> 00:01:47,800 Speaker 1: because the importance, obviously of the B and Z story 37 00:01:47,840 --> 00:01:50,560 Speaker 1: is that she made a protected disclosure and then b 38 00:01:50,720 --> 00:01:53,760 Speaker 1: and Z, instead of actually looking after her, started punishing 39 00:01:53,840 --> 00:01:56,280 Speaker 1: her for it. How often do you see that happening 40 00:01:56,360 --> 00:01:57,200 Speaker 1: in workplaces? 41 00:01:58,240 --> 00:02:01,040 Speaker 2: Well, there is end of retribute. You may recall the 42 00:02:01,120 --> 00:02:05,960 Speaker 2: Joanne Harrison case where she defrauded the Ministry of Transport 43 00:02:06,520 --> 00:02:11,040 Speaker 2: and the then Public Service commissioner felt that the employees 44 00:02:11,080 --> 00:02:14,880 Speaker 2: had been treated so badly that he initiated an inquiry 45 00:02:15,400 --> 00:02:18,200 Speaker 2: and the result that by Sandy Beatty was very critical 46 00:02:18,240 --> 00:02:20,440 Speaker 2: of the way that they've been treated. I think that's 47 00:02:20,480 --> 00:02:23,919 Speaker 2: an illustration, Heather, that this is an area where people 48 00:02:24,080 --> 00:02:28,359 Speaker 2: do get actious. Many won't make a complaint for fear 49 00:02:28,400 --> 00:02:32,359 Speaker 2: of retribution, And the real difficulty about that is that 50 00:02:32,440 --> 00:02:35,800 Speaker 2: those who are doing wrong continue to get away with us. 51 00:02:35,960 --> 00:02:37,880 Speaker 1: What is it that people are complaining about. 52 00:02:39,800 --> 00:02:43,080 Speaker 2: There are about three or four areas, and these are 53 00:02:43,080 --> 00:02:46,640 Speaker 2: the broad categories. I'll keep them brief. Financial mismanagement some 54 00:02:46,840 --> 00:02:50,160 Speaker 2: see those above them for a variety of reasons, not 55 00:02:50,280 --> 00:02:55,360 Speaker 2: managing money prudently. Then unsafe work practices. We see this 56 00:02:56,120 --> 00:02:59,119 Speaker 2: and you'll know from time to time various companies get 57 00:02:59,120 --> 00:03:03,600 Speaker 2: into trouble cause accidents keep occurring with their employees and 58 00:03:03,760 --> 00:03:07,440 Speaker 2: other employees know that they're being put at us. Then 59 00:03:07,600 --> 00:03:12,880 Speaker 2: sexual harassment does arise. It's there, and so also the 60 00:03:13,040 --> 00:03:17,720 Speaker 2: lack of systems within agencies to deal with it. So 61 00:03:17,840 --> 00:03:21,560 Speaker 2: in numbers, tho, I'm not only being sexually harassed, but 62 00:03:21,840 --> 00:03:23,680 Speaker 2: my agency has done nothing to help me. 63 00:03:24,560 --> 00:03:26,680 Speaker 1: Peter, I don't know if you're going to like this. 64 00:03:26,760 --> 00:03:28,080 Speaker 1: I just got a text. I want to run this 65 00:03:28,120 --> 00:03:31,400 Speaker 1: by you. Somebody's text through saying COVID created a culture 66 00:03:31,400 --> 00:03:33,760 Speaker 1: of narks. What do you think. 67 00:03:36,280 --> 00:03:39,280 Speaker 2: I have no evidence to support that at all. What 68 00:03:39,360 --> 00:03:42,440 Speaker 2: I would say is that in terms of whistleblowing and 69 00:03:42,480 --> 00:03:46,920 Speaker 2: people making disclosures in New Zealand, how we keep ourselves honest, 70 00:03:47,360 --> 00:03:51,160 Speaker 2: how we report those who perhaps steal money and they 71 00:03:51,200 --> 00:03:55,440 Speaker 2: shouldn't be those that are mismanaging. How often are we 72 00:03:55,480 --> 00:03:58,000 Speaker 2: goin to know that unless someone who really knows what's 73 00:03:58,040 --> 00:04:00,720 Speaker 2: going on discloses it. But I don't think it's a 74 00:04:00,720 --> 00:04:03,960 Speaker 2: matter of niken. It's a matter of being transparent in 75 00:04:04,080 --> 00:04:07,680 Speaker 2: some conduct that's appearing that's just not the New Zealand way. 76 00:04:08,360 --> 00:04:10,440 Speaker 1: Peter, thank you so much. Always appreciate the work that 77 00:04:10,440 --> 00:04:12,360 Speaker 1: you do and giving us your time. That's Peter Boscher, 78 00:04:12,640 --> 00:04:16,599 Speaker 1: the chief onwardsman. For more from Hither Duplessy Allen Drive, 79 00:04:16,760 --> 00:04:20,200 Speaker 1: listen live to news talks. It'd be from four pm weekdays, 80 00:04:20,279 --> 00:04:22,480 Speaker 1: or follow the podcast on iHeartRadio.