1 00:00:09,093 --> 00:00:12,693 Speaker 1: You're listening to a podcast from News Talks be follow 2 00:00:12,773 --> 00:00:16,332 Speaker 1: this and our wide range of podcasts now on iHeartRadio, 3 00:00:16,613 --> 00:00:17,293 Speaker 1: so New Zealand. 4 00:00:17,332 --> 00:00:19,973 Speaker 2: First Tiputy Leader and prominent Northland of Shane Jones says 5 00:00:19,973 --> 00:00:23,053 Speaker 2: our dog laws are not fit for purpose and joining 6 00:00:23,133 --> 00:00:26,773 Speaker 2: us is doctor Allison Vaughan. She is the SPCA Scientific 7 00:00:26,853 --> 00:00:29,773 Speaker 2: Officer and she's on the line, doctor Allison, Very good 8 00:00:29,773 --> 00:00:30,333 Speaker 2: afternoon to you. 9 00:00:31,173 --> 00:00:34,412 Speaker 3: What leads to a dog attacking a human such that 10 00:00:34,493 --> 00:00:36,213 Speaker 3: the owner should be held accountable? 11 00:00:38,013 --> 00:00:42,133 Speaker 4: Well, on an individual case level, there's multiple factors such 12 00:00:42,173 --> 00:00:46,492 Speaker 4: as lack of adequate socialization, the dog's been roaming in 13 00:00:46,492 --> 00:00:48,973 Speaker 4: the first place. But what we really need in terms 14 00:00:48,973 --> 00:00:52,693 Speaker 4: of addressing these sort of tragic incidents is much wider 15 00:00:52,812 --> 00:00:55,292 Speaker 4: change and we would agree with the Minister that our 16 00:00:55,373 --> 00:00:58,293 Speaker 4: laws are completely out of date in terms of this. 17 00:00:59,133 --> 00:01:03,173 Speaker 2: What are the laws now? Just briefly, if there is 18 00:01:03,213 --> 00:01:07,453 Speaker 2: a dog owner who is a terrible owner and lets 19 00:01:07,453 --> 00:01:09,212 Speaker 2: their dog out in that dog could take someone, what 20 00:01:09,293 --> 00:01:10,853 Speaker 2: is the punishment they had on to confise? 21 00:01:12,333 --> 00:01:14,372 Speaker 4: So there are punishments that are set out under the 22 00:01:14,373 --> 00:01:16,613 Speaker 4: Dog Control Act. But the real issue is the Dog 23 00:01:16,652 --> 00:01:20,413 Speaker 4: Control Act is thirty years old. It is hopelessly out 24 00:01:20,413 --> 00:01:22,773 Speaker 4: of date with modern science and what we know from 25 00:01:22,813 --> 00:01:26,053 Speaker 4: other jurisdictions in terms of what is effective at addressing 26 00:01:26,093 --> 00:01:30,452 Speaker 4: what is a population level issue. So really moving away 27 00:01:30,493 --> 00:01:34,212 Speaker 4: from focusing on the individual cases and focusing on addressing 28 00:01:34,693 --> 00:01:38,652 Speaker 4: what is needed, which is much wider action to address this. 29 00:01:39,453 --> 00:01:42,212 Speaker 3: So what kind of water action are you talking about here? 30 00:01:42,652 --> 00:01:45,413 Speaker 4: Well, I'm glad you asked. So there's not a silver bullet. 31 00:01:45,533 --> 00:01:47,733 Speaker 4: We need a suite of changes. But the most important 32 00:01:47,773 --> 00:01:51,613 Speaker 4: of these is we really need a substantive evidence based 33 00:01:51,613 --> 00:01:54,493 Speaker 4: review of the Dog Control Act and we also really 34 00:01:54,533 --> 00:01:58,293 Speaker 4: need more investment from central government in terms of desexing. 35 00:01:58,613 --> 00:02:01,493 Speaker 4: So the central government previously provided grants to local councils 36 00:02:01,533 --> 00:02:04,653 Speaker 4: to subicize the sexing of roaming dogs and dogs classified 37 00:02:04,653 --> 00:02:06,693 Speaker 4: as menacing, and we would like to see that return. 38 00:02:07,733 --> 00:02:12,973 Speaker 3: So who's out there identifying that a dog is dangerous? 39 00:02:14,013 --> 00:02:19,133 Speaker 4: So right now it's the individual councils animal management teams, 40 00:02:19,333 --> 00:02:22,613 Speaker 4: and really it's a patchwork of different approaches across the country. 41 00:02:22,853 --> 00:02:24,853 Speaker 4: So one of the other things we're calling for is 42 00:02:25,013 --> 00:02:28,852 Speaker 4: national guidance for councils, so that is a clear stepped 43 00:02:29,252 --> 00:02:33,973 Speaker 4: national approach. Following a dog by incident that incorporates evidence 44 00:02:34,013 --> 00:02:37,452 Speaker 4: based recognized tools such as the dunbar by a scale. 45 00:02:38,053 --> 00:02:40,692 Speaker 3: So right now, if there's a dog that is clearly 46 00:02:41,293 --> 00:02:47,453 Speaker 3: a risk to humans and possibly other dogs and it 47 00:02:47,493 --> 00:02:50,252 Speaker 3: needs to be d sexed, can a d sixing order 48 00:02:50,373 --> 00:02:51,813 Speaker 3: be issued? 49 00:02:53,532 --> 00:02:56,493 Speaker 4: So it depends on the council bylaws, so in some 50 00:02:56,573 --> 00:02:59,973 Speaker 4: cases they can. But what we really want to see 51 00:03:00,013 --> 00:03:02,692 Speaker 4: a lot of people might want to desecx their dog, 52 00:03:02,773 --> 00:03:05,213 Speaker 4: but there are barriers such as cost, and what we 53 00:03:05,252 --> 00:03:08,692 Speaker 4: see with dog by incidents is often we see more 54 00:03:08,733 --> 00:03:12,573 Speaker 4: dog attacks in areas lower socio economic areas. So to 55 00:03:12,613 --> 00:03:15,933 Speaker 4: help these communities, we need to make it needier so 56 00:03:16,252 --> 00:03:19,013 Speaker 4: people who do want to desect their dogs are able to. 57 00:03:19,532 --> 00:03:21,453 Speaker 2: But is that a part of the problem dog de 58 00:03:21,573 --> 00:03:24,773 Speaker 2: Vaughn that when you have people who are owning dogs 59 00:03:24,813 --> 00:03:26,933 Speaker 2: who are not equipped to be able to provide them 60 00:03:26,933 --> 00:03:30,053 Speaker 2: what they need, then this leads to the Roman dog situation. 61 00:03:30,173 --> 00:03:32,532 Speaker 2: This leads to aggressive nature of dogs. They're not being 62 00:03:32,532 --> 00:03:36,013 Speaker 2: looked after properly because they are not responsible owners. So 63 00:03:36,173 --> 00:03:39,333 Speaker 2: is they're not some teeth within the legislation to look 64 00:03:39,373 --> 00:03:41,493 Speaker 2: at people whether they are actually fit for purpose to 65 00:03:41,533 --> 00:03:43,573 Speaker 2: look after what can be a dangerous animal. 66 00:03:44,853 --> 00:03:46,973 Speaker 4: Absolutely, And I think what we need is a combination 67 00:03:47,013 --> 00:03:49,853 Speaker 4: of things because right now we have roaming dogs that 68 00:03:49,973 --> 00:03:52,893 Speaker 4: are not desect and this is causing more and more 69 00:03:53,053 --> 00:03:57,373 Speaker 4: this growing population of unwanted dogs who are roamings, who 70 00:03:57,413 --> 00:03:59,773 Speaker 4: are danger to our communities. So we both need to 71 00:03:59,813 --> 00:04:02,893 Speaker 4: address irresponsible owners, but we asto need to stop the 72 00:04:02,933 --> 00:04:03,853 Speaker 4: problem from growing. 73 00:04:04,293 --> 00:04:07,533 Speaker 3: Yeah, because if you can't afford to do what's necessary 74 00:04:07,693 --> 00:04:11,933 Speaker 3: with a dog such that it doesn't attack people, then 75 00:04:12,133 --> 00:04:14,693 Speaker 3: you just can't have a dog. I would have thought, 76 00:04:14,773 --> 00:04:18,813 Speaker 3: because maybe it's a lower socioonomic er area, but people 77 00:04:18,973 --> 00:04:22,053 Speaker 3: other people in that lower sociology economic area are going 78 00:04:22,093 --> 00:04:23,733 Speaker 3: to be the victims of the of the dog attack. 79 00:04:24,933 --> 00:04:29,053 Speaker 4: Absolutely, So we need to a multifactorial approach that addresses 80 00:04:29,133 --> 00:04:33,253 Speaker 4: all the different factors that create these situations. Because this 81 00:04:33,333 --> 00:04:36,013 Speaker 4: isn't just one case we're talking about here. This is 82 00:04:36,093 --> 00:04:39,333 Speaker 4: the third fatality in four years up in Northland and 83 00:04:39,373 --> 00:04:41,493 Speaker 4: this urgently needs the minister's attention. 84 00:04:42,693 --> 00:04:45,133 Speaker 3: How easy is it to assign blame to a person 85 00:04:45,173 --> 00:04:47,973 Speaker 3: when a dog attack has happened? Does the dog have 86 00:04:48,613 --> 00:04:51,493 Speaker 3: some agency in an attack? 87 00:04:53,013 --> 00:04:54,533 Speaker 4: Can you clarify your questions? 88 00:04:54,813 --> 00:04:59,693 Speaker 3: Well, so someone's attacked a dog's attack someone. How easy 89 00:04:59,813 --> 00:05:04,013 Speaker 3: is it to assign blame to the human being, because 90 00:05:04,573 --> 00:05:06,893 Speaker 3: you know, you could have a dog that's been great 91 00:05:06,973 --> 00:05:09,973 Speaker 3: its whole life, and then they about dogs suddenly snapping. 92 00:05:11,373 --> 00:05:14,613 Speaker 4: So one of the reasons we've been pushing for national 93 00:05:14,693 --> 00:05:17,773 Speaker 4: guidelines for cancels is because one of the tools that 94 00:05:17,813 --> 00:05:20,893 Speaker 4: we would recommend is that Ian Dunbar bite scale. Because 95 00:05:21,013 --> 00:05:24,093 Speaker 4: while dogs may bite if provoked, the type of bite 96 00:05:24,413 --> 00:05:27,293 Speaker 4: tells us a lot about the prognosis and how likely 97 00:05:27,333 --> 00:05:30,613 Speaker 4: that dog is to cause serious injury. So some dogs 98 00:05:30,613 --> 00:05:34,533 Speaker 4: will never go past a snap in the air or nip. 99 00:05:35,093 --> 00:05:38,373 Speaker 4: That's very different from a dog who may cause multiple 100 00:05:38,373 --> 00:05:42,973 Speaker 4: serious bite injuries, which we would consider it's not does 101 00:05:43,013 --> 00:05:45,853 Speaker 4: not have a good prognosis and should be euthanized. And 102 00:05:45,973 --> 00:05:48,613 Speaker 4: right now, cancels don't have this guidance on taking our 103 00:05:48,653 --> 00:05:53,413 Speaker 4: proportional approach that actually accurately assesses the likelihood of future 104 00:05:53,453 --> 00:05:56,573 Speaker 4: bites so that they can make sure they're addressing things 105 00:05:56,853 --> 00:06:01,053 Speaker 4: and having early intervention with some animals. Some animals euthanasia 106 00:06:01,093 --> 00:06:02,053 Speaker 4: would be the right option. 107 00:06:02,413 --> 00:06:04,413 Speaker 3: What was the name of that protocol you just mentioned? 108 00:06:04,413 --> 00:06:05,733 Speaker 3: The dog of all. 109 00:06:06,453 --> 00:06:08,973 Speaker 4: The Ian Dunbar bite scale and know there are actually 110 00:06:09,013 --> 00:06:11,253 Speaker 4: two petitions in front of the Select Committee about the 111 00:06:11,293 --> 00:06:14,173 Speaker 4: Dog Control Act, and one of them is calling for 112 00:06:14,973 --> 00:06:17,933 Speaker 4: national guidelines that incorporate this, and we're very much in support. 113 00:06:18,893 --> 00:06:19,453 Speaker 3: Doctor Vaughan. 114 00:06:19,533 --> 00:06:22,373 Speaker 2: Really appreciate your time and for having a chat with us. 115 00:06:22,413 --> 00:06:24,213 Speaker 2: Thank you very much and have a good afternoon. 116 00:06:25,013 --> 00:06:25,853 Speaker 4: Appreciate it. Thank you. 117 00:06:25,973 --> 00:06:29,933 Speaker 2: That is doctor Allison Vaughan, SBCA, Senior Scientific Officer. 118 00:06:30,133 --> 00:06:32,973 Speaker 3: I guess it'd be pretty easy to assign blame if 119 00:06:33,093 --> 00:06:35,413 Speaker 3: the dog has bitten before and then nothing has been done. 120 00:06:35,533 --> 00:06:38,813 Speaker 2: Yeah, the history of the dog would play into it absolutely. 121 00:06:38,253 --> 00:06:40,293 Speaker 3: But I'm an interesting to look at this bite scale that. 122 00:06:40,733 --> 00:06:41,533 Speaker 2: Yeah. 123 00:06:41,813 --> 00:06:44,493 Speaker 1: For more from News Talk sed B, listen live on 124 00:06:44,533 --> 00:06:47,493 Speaker 1: air or online, and keep our shows with you wherever 125 00:06:47,573 --> 00:06:50,133 Speaker 1: you go with our podcast on iHeartRadio.