1 00:00:00,120 --> 00:00:03,080 Speaker 1: Now the governments announced it's planning to bring involuntary reporting 2 00:00:03,120 --> 00:00:06,000 Speaker 1: of companies gender pay gaps. The gender pay gap is 3 00:00:06,040 --> 00:00:08,440 Speaker 1: currently eight point six percent in the Ministry for Women 4 00:00:08,800 --> 00:00:10,920 Speaker 1: will work on a way to help businesses calculate their 5 00:00:10,920 --> 00:00:13,280 Speaker 1: pay gaps. Louise Upston is the acting Minister for Women 6 00:00:13,280 --> 00:00:16,080 Speaker 1: and with us now, Hey Louise, hey, you doing Heather 7 00:00:16,400 --> 00:00:18,600 Speaker 1: very well? Thank you. So what order is this going 8 00:00:18,640 --> 00:00:21,159 Speaker 1: to be. Is it going to be public reporting of 9 00:00:21,200 --> 00:00:22,439 Speaker 1: the pay gap or is it just going to be 10 00:00:22,520 --> 00:00:24,439 Speaker 1: reporting it privately to the Ministry for Women. 11 00:00:26,000 --> 00:00:30,400 Speaker 2: No, So this is basically developing a tool that means 12 00:00:30,440 --> 00:00:33,480 Speaker 2: business are able to calculate their own gender pay gap. 13 00:00:34,320 --> 00:00:37,559 Speaker 2: What we know is that the first understand what the 14 00:00:37,640 --> 00:00:41,120 Speaker 2: gap is and then each business can develop a plan 15 00:00:41,360 --> 00:00:45,280 Speaker 2: for how to reduce it. So the first part is 16 00:00:45,360 --> 00:00:48,599 Speaker 2: making sure that there's a consistent for that businesses can use. 17 00:00:49,400 --> 00:00:52,320 Speaker 1: Right and so when that tool is developed, will it 18 00:00:52,360 --> 00:00:56,480 Speaker 1: be publicly reported or just reported privately to the government agency. 19 00:00:56,880 --> 00:00:59,320 Speaker 2: Well, it won't be reported to the government agency. It's 20 00:00:59,360 --> 00:01:02,360 Speaker 2: for business is to use themselves. 21 00:01:02,800 --> 00:01:04,240 Speaker 1: Reported themselves if they want to. 22 00:01:05,280 --> 00:01:10,120 Speaker 2: That's right. So we do know for champions to change organizations, 23 00:01:10,160 --> 00:01:14,080 Speaker 2: they are already participating in a process where they are 24 00:01:14,080 --> 00:01:18,400 Speaker 2: looking at their gender pay gap. Some businesses are reporting 25 00:01:18,400 --> 00:01:21,560 Speaker 2: it publicly. What we want the focus to be on 26 00:01:21,959 --> 00:01:25,600 Speaker 2: is businesses have a tool that is consistent and simple 27 00:01:25,640 --> 00:01:28,840 Speaker 2: to use where they can measure their own gender pay 28 00:01:28,880 --> 00:01:32,360 Speaker 2: gap and then they can develop a plan to reduce 29 00:01:32,480 --> 00:01:35,920 Speaker 2: the gap in their workforce. We think this is a 30 00:01:35,920 --> 00:01:40,120 Speaker 2: really important first step. So businesses can take those steps 31 00:01:40,120 --> 00:01:42,200 Speaker 2: and we can see the gender pay gap reduce. 32 00:01:42,720 --> 00:01:44,200 Speaker 1: Do these tools already exist? 33 00:01:45,800 --> 00:01:48,560 Speaker 2: Some of them do what we do know we've learned 34 00:01:48,640 --> 00:01:53,400 Speaker 2: from the example in Australia. It can be incredibly complicated, 35 00:01:54,480 --> 00:01:56,400 Speaker 2: and what we do want to do is make sure 36 00:01:56,440 --> 00:01:59,600 Speaker 2: it's as easy as possible for businesses to measure their 37 00:01:59,720 --> 00:02:01,600 Speaker 2: gender pay gap. Which is wise. 38 00:02:01,680 --> 00:02:03,560 Speaker 1: I mean, we're not the first people in the world 39 00:02:03,600 --> 00:02:05,280 Speaker 1: to be doing this, right, this is done all over 40 00:02:05,280 --> 00:02:07,360 Speaker 1: the world. It's already being done by some businesses in 41 00:02:07,360 --> 00:02:08,960 Speaker 1: New Zealand. So why don't we just use the tool 42 00:02:08,960 --> 00:02:09,679 Speaker 1: they've already got. 43 00:02:11,240 --> 00:02:13,840 Speaker 2: Well, there's some level of concern around the tool that's 44 00:02:13,840 --> 00:02:16,079 Speaker 2: being used, so we want to make sure we've got 45 00:02:16,080 --> 00:02:19,880 Speaker 2: a simple one that is effective. What we don't want 46 00:02:19,919 --> 00:02:23,720 Speaker 2: to do is had a very expensive regulatory system like 47 00:02:23,800 --> 00:02:27,280 Speaker 2: they have in Australia. The costs about ten billion dollars. 48 00:02:27,400 --> 00:02:31,080 Speaker 2: They have a separate regulator and every business over a 49 00:02:31,120 --> 00:02:35,760 Speaker 2: particular size has to report. We want a practical tool 50 00:02:35,840 --> 00:02:40,359 Speaker 2: that we're developing with business that other businesses all then 51 00:02:40,400 --> 00:02:40,880 Speaker 2: pick up a. 52 00:02:40,919 --> 00:02:44,480 Speaker 1: New So it's not as simple as saying you've got 53 00:02:44,560 --> 00:02:47,359 Speaker 1: one hundred and twenty women and on average they get 54 00:02:47,360 --> 00:02:49,440 Speaker 1: paid X, and you've got one hundred and twenty men 55 00:02:49,520 --> 00:02:52,400 Speaker 1: in the in the business on average they get paid 56 00:02:52,600 --> 00:02:54,760 Speaker 1: a bigger X. It doesn't work like that. You don't 57 00:02:54,800 --> 00:02:56,440 Speaker 1: just add them together and divide it by the number. 58 00:02:57,360 --> 00:03:00,799 Speaker 2: No, because if you think about part time employment and 59 00:03:00,960 --> 00:03:05,239 Speaker 2: you think about bonuses, you think about are we calculating mean, 60 00:03:05,360 --> 00:03:09,480 Speaker 2: average or medium? So it is about but what we 61 00:03:09,520 --> 00:03:12,240 Speaker 2: do want to make sure we're doing is being able 62 00:03:12,280 --> 00:03:17,400 Speaker 2: to calculate it consistently and have a tool that businesses 63 00:03:17,440 --> 00:03:21,359 Speaker 2: can be confident about. And also if you are if 64 00:03:21,360 --> 00:03:24,440 Speaker 2: you are a potential employee looking at going to work 65 00:03:24,480 --> 00:03:27,160 Speaker 2: for an organization and they publish their gender pay gap, 66 00:03:27,600 --> 00:03:30,600 Speaker 2: you want to have confidence that that information is accurate. 67 00:03:30,800 --> 00:03:32,520 Speaker 1: Louise, I'll tell you what my problem with the gender 68 00:03:32,520 --> 00:03:34,079 Speaker 1: pay gap is you could tell me how we fix 69 00:03:34,160 --> 00:03:36,320 Speaker 1: the situation. Okay, let's look at the business that I 70 00:03:36,440 --> 00:03:39,400 Speaker 1: work for. The two highest earners in this business I 71 00:03:39,440 --> 00:03:42,040 Speaker 1: would take a punt would be the CEO bloke and 72 00:03:42,120 --> 00:03:46,280 Speaker 1: Mike Hosking bloke. Now, that would skew things like that's 73 00:03:46,320 --> 00:03:49,280 Speaker 1: going to skew things massively in the male favor. But 74 00:03:49,480 --> 00:03:53,280 Speaker 1: it's not. That doesn't that's not unfair because Mike Hosking 75 00:03:53,360 --> 00:03:55,360 Speaker 1: is in that position regardless of whether he's a bloke 76 00:03:55,400 --> 00:03:57,640 Speaker 1: because he is just the best at that job, and 77 00:03:57,760 --> 00:03:59,680 Speaker 1: the CEO just happens to be a bloke, could be 78 00:03:59,720 --> 00:04:01,800 Speaker 1: a lay, but this time it's a bloke. So how 79 00:04:01,800 --> 00:04:04,560 Speaker 1: do you get around that where you've got some very 80 00:04:04,600 --> 00:04:07,120 Speaker 1: prominent high owners who will skew things and make it 81 00:04:07,160 --> 00:04:09,200 Speaker 1: look like there's a gender pay gap when perhaps if 82 00:04:09,200 --> 00:04:11,400 Speaker 1: you come down a level, there's no gender pay gap. 83 00:04:12,560 --> 00:04:15,240 Speaker 2: Yeah. So what some sectors are doing that are much 84 00:04:15,280 --> 00:04:19,000 Speaker 2: further down this track than others is they are able 85 00:04:19,080 --> 00:04:22,919 Speaker 2: to look at their data and assess what's the gender 86 00:04:22,960 --> 00:04:26,320 Speaker 2: pay gap in the senior leadership team, what's the gender 87 00:04:26,360 --> 00:04:29,720 Speaker 2: pay gap at the operational level of the business, what 88 00:04:29,839 --> 00:04:34,000 Speaker 2: is the gender pay gap in Auckland. So they are 89 00:04:34,040 --> 00:04:37,240 Speaker 2: able to analyze their data in a range of different 90 00:04:37,279 --> 00:04:42,240 Speaker 2: ways that can lead to meaningful actions that they then 91 00:04:42,400 --> 00:04:45,240 Speaker 2: take to reduce the gender pay gap. So they're taking 92 00:04:45,279 --> 00:04:49,640 Speaker 2: that consideration some of those things absolutely and it's got 93 00:04:49,640 --> 00:04:53,200 Speaker 2: to be meaningful and it's got to lead to options 94 00:04:53,200 --> 00:04:56,840 Speaker 2: a business can take to lead to change that reduces 95 00:04:56,880 --> 00:04:59,039 Speaker 2: the gender pay gap, because that's the end goal here. 96 00:04:59,279 --> 00:05:00,919 Speaker 2: We want to reduce the gender. 97 00:05:00,600 --> 00:05:03,240 Speaker 1: Pay Louise, thank you so much. Appreciate it that this 98 00:05:03,320 --> 00:05:05,760 Speaker 1: is Louise upstin acting Minister for Women. I'll tell you what, 99 00:05:05,800 --> 00:05:07,120 Speaker 1: it's a good thing that they're not going through with 100 00:05:07,160 --> 00:05:09,520 Speaker 1: it making it compulsory, right, because that is just red 101 00:05:09,600 --> 00:05:11,760 Speaker 1: tape all over the shop, when when David Seen was 102 00:05:11,800 --> 00:05:13,800 Speaker 1: doing such an admirable job at the moment of cutting 103 00:05:13,800 --> 00:05:17,320 Speaker 1: the old redtape. For more from Hither Duplessy Allen Drive, 104 00:05:17,480 --> 00:05:20,920 Speaker 1: listen live to news talks it'd b from four pm weekdays, 105 00:05:21,000 --> 00:05:23,239 Speaker 1: or follow the podcast on iHeartRadio.