WEBVTT - Episode 13: AuDHD - When Autism meets ADHD 0:00:00.320 --> 0:00:03.600 Just a note, this episode does contain explicit language. 0:00:05.440 --> 0:00:10.280 What do you call it? 0:00:10.280 --> 0:00:11.840 It's just cotton wall tied into. 0:00:11.720 --> 0:00:16.280 Bots and you take it everywhere. 0:00:16.480 --> 0:00:17.880 I take them everywhere. 0:00:19.520 --> 0:00:22.720 That's Rich Rowley talking about his homemade's dress ball. 0:00:23.280 --> 0:00:23.760 We're in the. 0:00:23.680 --> 0:00:26.120 Studios at endzedy me and he's taken me through some 0:00:26.200 --> 0:00:29.560 of his many silent dims things he does to help 0:00:29.640 --> 0:00:32.879 calm himself when he's uncomfortable, which is a lot of 0:00:32.920 --> 0:00:35.240 the time. There's a finger counting ritual. 0:00:35.880 --> 0:00:39.760 I do it with my toes. You can't really see 0:00:39.800 --> 0:00:40.400 me doing that. 0:00:41.520 --> 0:00:43.800 And the lip reverb, I. 0:00:43.800 --> 0:00:47.839 Just vibrate my bottom. It's sort of vibrating inside. And 0:00:47.920 --> 0:00:49.839 that's just that's so common. 0:00:49.880 --> 0:00:50.680 And so then. 0:00:52.560 --> 0:00:55.240 I'm always uncomfortable when I'm out of the house, right, 0:00:55.280 --> 0:00:58.680 it doesn't matter where I am. I'm always everything's loud 0:00:58.760 --> 0:01:02.200 and bright and. 0:01:01.000 --> 0:01:03.440 And I'm just thinking now, like you're sitting here and 0:01:03.520 --> 0:01:07.959 there's a shitload of lights. It's a weird environment. Are 0:01:08.000 --> 0:01:08.520 you okay? 0:01:09.480 --> 0:01:15.040 I mean, it's the onest answer to that is no, right, 0:01:15.800 --> 0:01:22.000 it's horrible. The practical answer is, where isn't like this? 0:01:22.200 --> 0:01:22.360 Right? 0:01:22.520 --> 0:01:24.720 You get used to it, it does I'm never going 0:01:24.800 --> 0:01:29.120 to like it never going to be really comfortable. What 0:01:29.200 --> 0:01:32.119 does a world look like that's comforting to me? I 0:01:32.280 --> 0:01:35.360 genuinely don't know, because I've never heard it, never had it. 0:01:37.360 --> 0:01:41.240 I'm diving into the complex and fascinating world of neurodiversity. 0:01:41.760 --> 0:01:45.080 I'm not an expert, but my daughter is neurodivergent and 0:01:45.120 --> 0:01:47.880 a few years ago I was diagnosed ady h D. 0:01:48.680 --> 0:01:51.360 In this series you'll hear from experts and from many 0:01:51.440 --> 0:01:54.480 wonderful people who experience the world in a unique way. 0:01:55.080 --> 0:01:59.680 We're looking at neurodiversity from the inside, Jelda, I'm Sonia Gray, 0:01:59.720 --> 0:02:12.440 and there's no such thing as normal. Series two. In 0:02:12.480 --> 0:02:16.840 this episode, we're looking at cooccurring autism and ADHD. Most 0:02:16.880 --> 0:02:20.560 neurodivergent people will fit the criteria for more than one diagnosis, 0:02:20.960 --> 0:02:24.200 and often we'll have a secondary condition like anxiety or depression. 0:02:24.680 --> 0:02:28.480 Autism and ADHD used to be mutually exclusive. That is 0:02:28.560 --> 0:02:31.480 not the case anymore. In fact, it's pretty common to 0:02:31.520 --> 0:02:35.359 be diagnosed with both. The unofficial abbreviation is all DHD, 0:02:36.000 --> 0:02:38.280 and many people are looking at the traits and thinking 0:02:38.880 --> 0:02:42.919 that's me or that's my child. Often it means a 0:02:43.000 --> 0:02:45.680 mind that's constantly at odds with itself. 0:02:46.600 --> 0:02:50.480 Stayful by routing book, desperate for it because I've got 0:02:50.800 --> 0:02:54.640 these constant internal narrative, like these like ampsters on wheels 0:02:54.639 --> 0:02:55.640 that never shut off. 0:02:56.760 --> 0:03:00.360 Rich Raley featured in series one of this podcast, Gone 0:03:00.360 --> 0:03:03.680 Back because I love steeping inside his brain. And if 0:03:03.680 --> 0:03:07.560 anyone can describe their experience of AUDIHD, it's rich. 0:03:09.120 --> 0:03:12.400 I've got lots of different sort of labels, right, so 0:03:13.240 --> 0:03:16.079 they sort of seemed to compete against each other, right, 0:03:16.120 --> 0:03:19.920 But like I got a formal diagnosis of ADHD like 0:03:20.040 --> 0:03:22.040 ten years ago or so, that was a journey in 0:03:22.080 --> 0:03:24.680 itself kind of come into grips with that. And then 0:03:25.360 --> 0:03:29.440 I met my new partner and we've got a beautiful 0:03:29.440 --> 0:03:34.080 blended family and our eldest he'd got he was formally 0:03:34.120 --> 0:03:37.040 diagnosed with autism. But it was like first time I 0:03:37.080 --> 0:03:39.760 met him, I was like that he's just like me, 0:03:40.520 --> 0:03:42.200 like really just like me. 0:03:42.440 --> 0:03:44.360 And my partner was like. 0:03:44.960 --> 0:03:48.600 It's so like ready you're autistic and idize like it's 0:03:48.640 --> 0:03:49.200 like no, I'm not. 0:03:49.240 --> 0:03:50.120 It's ADHD. 0:03:50.360 --> 0:03:54.800 And then you know it's going down that thing as well. 0:03:54.960 --> 0:03:57.720 You know, it's it's a lot. 0:03:58.280 --> 0:04:01.920 When Rich God is initial diagnosis of ADHD, it's unlikely 0:04:01.960 --> 0:04:04.760 autism would have been recognized at the same time. This 0:04:04.960 --> 0:04:07.600 is pretty new for everyone. 0:04:07.840 --> 0:04:10.280 There is still so much more for all of us 0:04:10.320 --> 0:04:14.080 to learn in that professional space because it is such 0:04:14.280 --> 0:04:17.560 a kind of a really emerging area in a lot 0:04:17.600 --> 0:04:18.080 of ways. 0:04:18.880 --> 0:04:22.560 That's clinical psychologist Sarah Watson, who runs Totally Psyched in 0:04:22.640 --> 0:04:26.120 Parmackey Mikodo. She says her team are now recognizing and 0:04:26.160 --> 0:04:29.159 diagnosing more and more young people with what they call 0:04:29.440 --> 0:04:30.000 the combo. 0:04:30.960 --> 0:04:34.280 It is actually such a current thing. How it used 0:04:34.320 --> 0:04:37.480 to be diagnostically was principally you could only be ADHD 0:04:37.640 --> 0:04:40.919 or you could be ASD. Anything like one had to 0:04:40.920 --> 0:04:44.160 be secondary to the other. So it meant what we 0:04:44.160 --> 0:04:47.479 were saying to people as professionals was you're only one 0:04:47.520 --> 0:04:51.000 thing and anything else is kind of a bit incidental, 0:04:51.480 --> 0:04:55.599 which is really what we understand now incorrect for those 0:04:55.640 --> 0:04:59.000 who have AUDHD, because have actually got aspects of each 0:04:59.080 --> 0:05:01.120 and that is part of what makes it the way 0:05:01.160 --> 0:05:02.279 their brain works. 0:05:03.279 --> 0:05:05.920 To make sure they get it right, Sarah's team conduct 0:05:06.120 --> 0:05:09.839 really thorough assessments three or four hours long, because with 0:05:09.880 --> 0:05:12.560 these diagnoses there is a lot to tease out. 0:05:13.960 --> 0:05:18.240 Our team had to upskill quite a lot around AUDHD. 0:05:18.800 --> 0:05:22.880 You know, we need to understand what this is because 0:05:23.080 --> 0:05:26.280 generally speaking it's been considered as it quite binary, like 0:05:26.400 --> 0:05:30.320 ASD and ADHD are quite separate things. The thing with 0:05:30.440 --> 0:05:34.920 AUDHD is that there's the diagnostic side, but then there's 0:05:34.960 --> 0:05:38.320 also the understanding site. You know, in my view, and 0:05:38.360 --> 0:05:40.280 I think this is where a psychologist really has a 0:05:40.400 --> 0:05:44.920 unique perspective in that we really are motivated by understanding 0:05:44.920 --> 0:05:49.039 an individual and what their experience is, and then we're 0:05:49.120 --> 0:05:52.680 kind of the diagnostic process is secondary to that. So 0:05:52.880 --> 0:05:57.040 it's not that it's unimportant, but actually developing and really 0:05:57.320 --> 0:06:02.040 validating somebody's experience is so much more important. And part 0:06:02.080 --> 0:06:04.560 of that is going, yeah, I can see where your 0:06:04.600 --> 0:06:08.360 strengths lie. That I can also see where the struggles are. 0:06:09.640 --> 0:06:12.640 Rich Rally has always been well aware of his struggles. 0:06:13.080 --> 0:06:15.400 In coming to Grips with his many diagnoses was an 0:06:15.440 --> 0:06:20.040 emotional rollercoaster, but he now recognizes his many, many strengths 0:06:20.240 --> 0:06:22.080 and there's a whole new understanding. 0:06:24.760 --> 0:06:29.240 My will got bigger because of it. My worldview changed 0:06:29.400 --> 0:06:31.599 all of a sudden. I under like, I can see 0:06:31.600 --> 0:06:35.000 where I stand in relation to everything else. I can 0:06:35.120 --> 0:06:38.960 understand why you would look at somebody like me and 0:06:39.040 --> 0:06:43.800 go that shit's fucking broken. I can understand that because 0:06:43.839 --> 0:06:47.080 of where I now stand, because I can see that 0:06:47.200 --> 0:06:50.440 when you're over there looking at me, I do look broken, right. 0:06:52.240 --> 0:06:54.920 I can write a master's thesis in a day and 0:06:54.960 --> 0:06:57.240 get a distinction for it. You give me a form 0:06:57.279 --> 0:07:00.200 to fill in. I can't do it. Can't do it? 0:07:00.839 --> 0:07:03.159 What's that about? I must be broken? 0:07:03.279 --> 0:07:03.520 Right? 0:07:05.520 --> 0:07:10.760 I still struggle with feeling bad about that. That's the 0:07:10.960 --> 0:07:14.120 challenge that we're up against light and that starts in schools. 0:07:14.200 --> 0:07:17.040 You go through a learning system that says, if you're 0:07:17.080 --> 0:07:22.120 not capable of doing this, you're bad, you're wrong, you've 0:07:22.160 --> 0:07:27.040 got problems, you've broken. It doesn't give you any opportunity 0:07:27.160 --> 0:07:31.400 or very very very limited opportunity to go. But look 0:07:31.440 --> 0:07:35.239 at all the stuff you are good at. Like school's 0:07:35.320 --> 0:07:38.000 changed a little since I went through, I mean, there 0:07:38.040 --> 0:07:42.200 are more opportunities for creative thinkers, but still within this 0:07:42.320 --> 0:07:44.280 really highly constrained environment. 0:07:47.000 --> 0:07:49.480 Rich and I have often talked about the diagnosis of 0:07:49.560 --> 0:07:54.160 oppositional defiant disorder or ODD. My daughter hit that label 0:07:54.200 --> 0:07:56.760 at one point. There are so many things wrong with it, 0:07:57.160 --> 0:08:00.400 and we'll go into those in a future episode. And 0:08:00.440 --> 0:08:02.680 as school days, Rich might have been a kid who 0:08:02.760 --> 0:08:05.400 was given the odd label bick in the day. Well 0:08:05.440 --> 0:08:08.160 maybe I'm wrong, maybe he was a well behaved, compliant, 0:08:08.400 --> 0:08:09.480 high achieving student. 0:08:10.080 --> 0:08:13.240 Oh fuck no, I would argue with me, teachers, like 0:08:14.120 --> 0:08:18.720 constantly pushing against all those back, always, always, always pushing, 0:08:19.000 --> 0:08:21.760 even in an environment where if you pushed you got 0:08:21.880 --> 0:08:26.000 physically abused, like beyond the mental beauty, I mean, the 0:08:26.000 --> 0:08:29.360 mental abuse in that system was constant. Right, you're an idiot, 0:08:29.520 --> 0:08:33.360 you're stupid, you're dumb, that's teachers. You're a waste of 0:08:33.360 --> 0:08:37.200 space all the time. And then like you know, like 0:08:37.320 --> 0:08:40.360 if you push too org you get hit. Couldn't stop pushing, 0:08:41.600 --> 0:08:45.840 couldn't stop pushing. I'm still oppositionally defiant. If I'm in 0:08:45.880 --> 0:08:48.480 a system where I'm constrained and there were no valid 0:08:48.520 --> 0:08:53.240 reasons for it, I will push. But that's how progress happens, right, 0:08:53.920 --> 0:08:56.680 that's valuable to society. 0:08:57.760 --> 0:09:00.920 So yes, defiant, But in a way it says this 0:09:01.000 --> 0:09:04.880 isn't working. A refusal to accept the status quo. This 0:09:04.920 --> 0:09:07.079 is something I really admire in so many and you're 0:09:07.080 --> 0:09:13.480 a divisent people. Rich is also incredibly comfortable uncertainty. Sometimes 0:09:13.520 --> 0:09:16.280 such as the oxymoronic nature of AUDIHD. 0:09:19.360 --> 0:09:22.840 In the UK where I grew up, there wasn't a 0:09:22.880 --> 0:09:24.439 lot to do at the weekend other than go to 0:09:24.480 --> 0:09:26.480 the football. And you go to the football, and then 0:09:26.520 --> 0:09:30.640 there's all the extraneous stuff that was happening around the football, 0:09:30.720 --> 0:09:32.000 right the fight, in the violence. 0:09:32.080 --> 0:09:34.480 I loved that even though. 0:09:34.480 --> 0:09:38.480 I was tiny. I used to love just being in 0:09:38.559 --> 0:09:42.720 it because of the danger and the excitement and anything 0:09:42.840 --> 0:09:46.800 that was just rolled, like, rather than running away, I'd 0:09:46.880 --> 0:09:50.360 run towards it. It's like I still have that insa 0:09:50.440 --> 0:09:54.240 of me today. I'm really great when the shit's hitting 0:09:54.280 --> 0:09:57.600 the fun it's everything's calm. It's my best. 0:09:58.280 --> 0:10:02.280 Yeah. And yet so you're great with uncertainty and yet 0:10:02.280 --> 0:10:04.360 were you telling me a while ago about a workshop 0:10:04.400 --> 0:10:08.960 you were doing and the room changed? Yeah, and it 0:10:09.160 --> 0:10:09.959 really through. 0:10:09.800 --> 0:10:11.880 It throws me. Yeah. 0:10:12.080 --> 0:10:14.559 If it's something where I've gone in with an expectation 0:10:14.679 --> 0:10:16.840 and it's changed, it will it'll throw me. 0:10:17.120 --> 0:10:18.920 So you've got a whole lot of other things that 0:10:19.040 --> 0:10:21.480 you're thinking about, and so you're like, well, at least 0:10:21.480 --> 0:10:24.199 don't know the rooms there, and then the room changes 0:10:24.440 --> 0:10:26.280 and it's like I was a fuck. 0:10:26.400 --> 0:10:29.920 It's like God, and I'm trying to It's not deal 0:10:29.960 --> 0:10:30.200 with it. 0:10:30.200 --> 0:10:30.719 It's just I. 0:10:30.679 --> 0:10:33.000 Can't deal with it in my normal way of dealing 0:10:33.120 --> 0:10:37.280 with it because it would actually me and a crisis. 0:10:37.320 --> 0:10:41.319 I'm amazing, but like it's not really for like musk consumption. 0:10:42.840 --> 0:10:54.880 Yeah yeah, yeah, like many autistic people or audyhd is, 0:10:55.280 --> 0:10:58.559 there is a passion for very niche special interests. 0:10:59.760 --> 0:11:01.120 I'm very weird. 0:11:01.280 --> 0:11:04.400 I can obsess about the granular detail if I'm interested 0:11:04.440 --> 0:11:08.200 in it. I've got deep interest in all technology ancient 0:11:08.400 --> 0:11:13.600 through to modern, very very very special interesting industrial chimneys. 0:11:14.320 --> 0:11:16.360 I don't think you're going to find many people that 0:11:16.480 --> 0:11:18.120 will jump on the industrial. 0:11:17.920 --> 0:11:24.000 I'll just talk about or steam trains or and I've 0:11:24.000 --> 0:11:26.400 got loads of them. And it's like I just thought 0:11:26.440 --> 0:11:28.920 that everybody had that, that they had lots. 0:11:28.640 --> 0:11:31.120 Of these like unusual. 0:11:30.760 --> 0:11:33.599 Small leash things that they were very very interested in. 0:11:33.640 --> 0:11:38.280 Everybody turns out now it's but it's I. 0:11:38.240 --> 0:11:41.080 Love it though, Like there's nothing better than someone that's 0:11:41.080 --> 0:11:44.400 passionate about something. Do I want to know every detail? 0:11:44.559 --> 0:11:46.800 Probably not. And I think it's weird. It's a struggle. 0:11:46.920 --> 0:11:48.200 I don't even know how to describe. 0:11:48.240 --> 0:11:51.160 I'm like more than interested it, I'd be desperate, Like 0:11:51.200 --> 0:11:54.120 I say, it's that desperate to talk about them more, 0:11:55.040 --> 0:11:57.960 you know, I like I I mean, I think I'm 0:11:58.000 --> 0:12:01.560 bloody lucky where I live, right, I live, and ponds 0:12:01.600 --> 0:12:03.640 and b and there's there's two. 0:12:04.920 --> 0:12:07.320 Where I walk. The dogs are walk past two. 0:12:07.280 --> 0:12:11.320 Of the only like Edwardian industrial chimneys that are left. 0:12:11.120 --> 0:12:12.640 Probably in New Zealand, right. 0:12:12.679 --> 0:12:16.080 And I love walking past them, I like, and I 0:12:16.200 --> 0:12:18.920 do it deliberately because I just a light looking at them, 0:12:18.920 --> 0:12:20.960 and a light that they're part of the landscape still 0:12:21.000 --> 0:12:23.280 and that there's a couple of them that have survived. 0:12:23.360 --> 0:12:27.400 And I don't care about chimneys, but I love that 0:12:27.440 --> 0:12:29.400 you love them. Does it kind of give you a 0:12:29.440 --> 0:12:30.079 sense of joy? 0:12:30.600 --> 0:12:30.960 Oh? 0:12:31.160 --> 0:12:33.720 Yeah, yeah, absolutely. 0:12:35.040 --> 0:12:37.200 I don't know how many ponds and by residents even 0:12:37.280 --> 0:12:41.000 clock the industrial chimneys, but that passion for the chimneys 0:12:41.360 --> 0:12:43.680 is an example of the magic we often miss with 0:12:43.720 --> 0:12:48.160 different cognition, wonderment, finding unfiltered joy and things most of 0:12:48.240 --> 0:12:55.640 us don't even notice. But I think I'm walking with 0:12:55.679 --> 0:12:58.680 a nineteen year old Annavelle in central Wellington. We're at 0:12:58.679 --> 0:13:01.840 the bottom of the terrace, an area I know really well, 0:13:02.120 --> 0:13:04.480 or I thought I did. But walking with Annabelle is 0:13:04.520 --> 0:13:10.119 a whole new experience. She finds the boring captivating, the graveyard, 0:13:10.240 --> 0:13:12.680 the little house, even the guy washing the windows. 0:13:13.800 --> 0:13:16.400 I should not an interview. Walking outside this giv anything's 0:13:16.400 --> 0:13:16.679 look at. 0:13:17.080 --> 0:13:19.280 You might remember annabel from the first episode in this 0:13:19.400 --> 0:13:22.760 series when she talked about her sensory challenges. What I 0:13:22.800 --> 0:13:26.040 didn't get a chance to celebrate then it was her wonderment. 0:13:26.600 --> 0:13:30.400 Spending time with her is life affirming, but annabel also 0:13:30.679 --> 0:13:34.319 apologizes and second guesses herself a lot, which is perhaps 0:13:34.400 --> 0:13:38.600 common for alldhds, and maybe also because the your just 0:13:38.679 --> 0:13:42.200 too much message is something she's had her entire life. 0:13:43.320 --> 0:13:47.200 I first met you last year at a little party 0:13:47.360 --> 0:13:49.880 and you get up to speak and you just kind 0:13:49.880 --> 0:13:51.280 of like, I didn't get up. 0:13:51.640 --> 0:13:52.320 I didn't get up. 0:13:52.400 --> 0:13:52.800 I sat. 0:13:53.000 --> 0:13:55.640 I was I was in a sack. Remember I was 0:13:55.679 --> 0:13:57.760 in a sack on the floor. Remember, Yeah, I wasn't. 0:13:57.840 --> 0:13:58.960 I wasn't standing up. 0:13:59.120 --> 0:14:01.320 No, it was it's so beautiful about it. You're in 0:14:01.360 --> 0:14:03.319 your onesie. Was it a onesie? I don't know. 0:14:03.400 --> 0:14:04.719 It was like a set it's called it was called 0:14:04.720 --> 0:14:06.120 a sensory sack. And I was like, this is the 0:14:06.120 --> 0:14:08.200 best thing because I climbed into it and its like 0:14:08.240 --> 0:14:09.880 I'm in backing the worm or something. 0:14:10.840 --> 0:14:13.640 So on that day, Annabel made an impromptu speech at 0:14:13.679 --> 0:14:16.880 an event she was in who sensory sack. She lay down, 0:14:17.160 --> 0:14:19.840 she totally forgot what she actually wanted to say, but 0:14:19.920 --> 0:14:22.280 it was a beautiful moment that has stuck with me 0:14:22.600 --> 0:14:26.960 because everybody there just embraced it. Everybody was grateful to 0:14:27.000 --> 0:14:30.480 her for just being herself, And I thought, why isn't 0:14:30.480 --> 0:14:31.680 the world more like this? 0:14:33.080 --> 0:14:35.360 That's so interesting because that was like the first sort 0:14:35.360 --> 0:14:39.640 of time I had kind of actually felt being around 0:14:40.120 --> 0:14:42.040 a bunch of people like who were also on your 0:14:42.040 --> 0:14:44.760 A division because that's not normal. I didn't think you were, 0:14:45.080 --> 0:14:46.920 you know, like, that's not something that we're taught. 0:14:47.040 --> 0:14:50.480 Is okay, we're taught, it's not okay. In fact, it's 0:14:50.600 --> 0:14:53.600 very rare for those like Annabel to feel truly comfortable 0:14:54.000 --> 0:15:00.760 to be their version of normal. Afterwards, did you go, oh, yes, okay, tell. 0:15:00.560 --> 0:15:01.080 Me about that. 0:15:01.200 --> 0:15:04.240 I just immediately went and I felt you absolute prefer 0:15:04.400 --> 0:15:07.920 you idiot. But that's kind of a commonality. I realized 0:15:07.960 --> 0:15:11.320 subconsciously that every time I contribute something to discussion, I 0:15:11.360 --> 0:15:14.760 always apologize after at the end of my discussion point, 0:15:14.800 --> 0:15:16.840 I'll say something like, but I'm probably totally wrong. I'm 0:15:16.840 --> 0:15:18.480 so sorry. That wasn't. That was terrible. 0:15:18.800 --> 0:15:19.160 I don't know. 0:15:19.200 --> 0:15:21.600 It just feels like that's kind of a safety nit hmm, 0:15:22.480 --> 0:15:26.680 because in case it is terrible, well that wasn't. 0:15:27.840 --> 0:15:31.560 It really wasn't. But that shows the stop, go, push, pull, 0:15:31.960 --> 0:15:37.320 speak out, apologize perpetual cycle that many audhds live with daily. 0:15:38.520 --> 0:15:41.200 I think for me, my brain is kind of like 0:15:41.520 --> 0:15:45.320 a giant contradiction. There's my ADHD part of my brain 0:15:45.600 --> 0:15:49.760 going I love novelty and new things and spontaneity, and 0:15:49.800 --> 0:15:54.200 then there's the autistic part going, you're insane, like what 0:15:54.280 --> 0:15:56.960 are you doing? That's you know, you panic blah blah 0:15:56.960 --> 0:16:01.200 blah blah blah. So it kind of externalizes and spontaneity 0:16:01.400 --> 0:16:06.440 only on Annabel's terms. Anyone else's terms, Annabel will melt 0:16:06.440 --> 0:16:09.600 down and panic. So it's kind of a huge contradiction. 0:16:09.640 --> 0:16:12.400 It's hard to kind of explain to people because they're like, well, 0:16:12.640 --> 0:16:14.400 but you're doing this, so why can't you use you this. 0:16:14.560 --> 0:16:17.040 I'm like, well, I don't know. 0:16:17.600 --> 0:16:21.960 So on one hand, you like predictability and structure. Yes, 0:16:22.400 --> 0:16:25.800 But on the other hand, you love spontaneity, and so 0:16:25.800 --> 0:16:30.080 it's almost within that structure, this conflicting brain. Yes, a 0:16:30.120 --> 0:16:33.000 brain that's kind of a war with itself. Sometimes tell 0:16:33.040 --> 0:16:35.120 me what that was? Sometimes all the time for you 0:16:35.200 --> 0:16:39.600 and your family? Oh yeah, my poor family. Um, yeah, 0:16:39.800 --> 0:16:40.640 I feel a little bit. 0:16:41.120 --> 0:16:43.880 I feel looking that respectively, I feel a little bit 0:16:45.280 --> 0:16:48.960 sorry for them. How do I put this? I was 0:16:49.080 --> 0:16:52.360 very difficult, but I wasn't intentionally difficult. I was very 0:16:52.360 --> 0:16:56.080 difficult because I couldn't articulate and I didn't realize why 0:16:56.160 --> 0:16:58.000 my brain was the way it was. So holidays were 0:16:58.000 --> 0:17:02.000 an absolute nightmare because you know, it's lifting me out 0:17:02.040 --> 0:17:02.640 of my routine. 0:17:02.760 --> 0:17:05.160 And did you have meltdowns as a kid. 0:17:05.400 --> 0:17:08.720 Yes, my parents have, you know, like along with me, 0:17:08.840 --> 0:17:11.639 learnt so much since my diagnosis, you know, because I 0:17:11.640 --> 0:17:14.360 couldn't control it. Used to go like, oh, Annabel, you're 0:17:14.400 --> 0:17:15.840 acting like a four year old. 0:17:16.400 --> 0:17:19.720 Psychologist Sarah Watson says, it's so difficult for far though, 0:17:19.760 --> 0:17:22.720 to understand that this is not about behavior. It's an 0:17:22.800 --> 0:17:24.920 intense internal experience. 0:17:26.320 --> 0:17:28.919 But it's not because I don't want to It's not 0:17:28.960 --> 0:17:33.639 because I'm being willful. It's not because I'm intentionally trying 0:17:33.680 --> 0:17:37.120 to be defiant, you know what I mean. The thing 0:17:37.240 --> 0:17:41.400 is is parents of those with AUDHD, once you understand 0:17:41.440 --> 0:17:44.960 the processes and what AUDIHD is, you're able to then 0:17:45.040 --> 0:17:49.600 come to see the behavior that your child is exhibiting 0:17:49.880 --> 0:17:51.080 as with compassion. 0:17:52.440 --> 0:17:56.160 So how did the whole AUDHD discovery come about for Annabelle. 0:17:57.119 --> 0:18:00.399 I don't think I ever suspected I was autistic, because 0:18:00.480 --> 0:18:05.320 in my head, the autistic stereotype was young Sheldon and 0:18:06.480 --> 0:18:09.199 autestic people couldn't have empathy or something like that, and 0:18:09.240 --> 0:18:11.359 they were blunt. And I was like, well, no, I'm 0:18:11.400 --> 0:18:15.320 not blunt. I'm almost too empathetic. I get way too 0:18:15.359 --> 0:18:17.480 involved in how other people are feeling, and if they're 0:18:17.480 --> 0:18:19.639 feeling sad, I want you to jump off a cliff. 0:18:19.960 --> 0:18:25.240 But it was after my ADHD diagnosis, and I remember 0:18:25.240 --> 0:18:28.400 in the report the psychologists had said that I had 0:18:28.440 --> 0:18:32.240 exhibited signs of autism spectrum disorder, but not enough to 0:18:32.880 --> 0:18:35.879 you know, had been ruled out earlier. And I kind 0:18:35.920 --> 0:18:38.719 of assumed that after my ADHD diagnosis everything would kind 0:18:38.720 --> 0:18:42.240 of fit together and there's like all this is answered, 0:18:42.240 --> 0:18:45.040 but there's still there's still this little part that I 0:18:45.080 --> 0:18:49.960 don't quite understand, and it was I don't know. I 0:18:49.960 --> 0:18:54.760 think also getting on ADHD medication allowed the autistic traits 0:18:54.760 --> 0:18:57.760 that had been overshadowed by the ADHD traits to suddenly 0:18:57.800 --> 0:19:00.359 come to the surface. And then my therapy, who I 0:19:00.359 --> 0:19:03.000 had been with since twenty twenty, was like, I think 0:19:03.040 --> 0:19:05.840 you're autistic, and so I started doing a lot of 0:19:05.880 --> 0:19:13.840 research and it was like, Okay, crap, because for me, 0:19:14.040 --> 0:19:17.080 autism seems as interesting. At the time, autism seems so 0:19:17.160 --> 0:19:18.040 much worse than ADHD. 0:19:18.600 --> 0:19:19.119 I get it. 0:19:19.160 --> 0:19:19.880 I know what you're saying. 0:19:19.960 --> 0:19:22.240 Yeah, And to tell people I was autistic was way 0:19:22.760 --> 0:19:25.199 harder than telling people why I had ai ishue. Yeah. 0:19:25.240 --> 0:19:28.320 Because of the stereotypes. Yeah, because of the stereotype and 0:19:28.359 --> 0:19:30.600 it will probably take a long time to shake. 0:19:30.880 --> 0:19:39.840 Yeah. 0:19:39.880 --> 0:19:42.280 Have you ever had any really low points in your life? 0:19:42.359 --> 0:19:42.679 Yes? 0:19:44.560 --> 0:19:45.440 Do you want to talk about those? 0:19:45.440 --> 0:19:45.879 You don't have to? 0:19:46.320 --> 0:19:46.639 Well? 0:19:46.800 --> 0:19:50.480 I think especially in high school, especially before I was diagnosed. Yeah, 0:19:50.520 --> 0:19:54.400 yet ten and eleven, which is like fifteen sixteen, And 0:19:54.960 --> 0:19:57.400 I realized now looking back, the issues that arose were 0:19:57.440 --> 0:20:02.399 because of an undiagnosed neurdivid and it was for a 0:20:02.520 --> 0:20:08.160 child told every day without malicious intent. People would just go, oh, 0:20:08.240 --> 0:20:10.280 you're so much in a belt like you're and there's 0:20:10.480 --> 0:20:12.560 never any malicious intent behind that. It's just kind of 0:20:12.560 --> 0:20:16.400 like a throwaway comment, but that builds up and eventually 0:20:16.480 --> 0:20:19.399 I was like at that point, I was like, well, 0:20:19.920 --> 0:20:22.080 I feel like people would be a lot happier if 0:20:22.080 --> 0:20:26.280 I wasn't here. And looking back, that was a result 0:20:26.359 --> 0:20:29.560 of undiagnosed autism and at atually and it was it 0:20:29.600 --> 0:20:31.960 just developed into like I had a lot of anxiety 0:20:32.000 --> 0:20:36.040 and a lot of periods of depression because I couldn't 0:20:36.040 --> 0:20:39.000 figure out what why I felt so I don't know, 0:20:39.080 --> 0:20:41.840 incompetent next to my peers. 0:20:41.480 --> 0:20:43.400 Yeah, and why everything was such a struggle. 0:20:43.560 --> 0:20:43.760 Yeah. 0:20:43.920 --> 0:20:46.919 I was like, why can't I pull myself together? And 0:20:46.960 --> 0:20:48.800 I didn't ask for help because I was like, this 0:20:48.880 --> 0:20:50.360 is not something that you should need help. 0:20:50.400 --> 0:20:54.520 Worth. Did you get any sort of anxiety or depression diagnosis? Yeah? 0:20:54.520 --> 0:20:57.440 I got, Yeah, my first diagnosis, actually, my first ever 0:20:57.480 --> 0:21:02.160 diagnosis was in year ten generalize anxiety disorder and social anxiety. 0:21:02.760 --> 0:21:05.960 When I was diagnosed with autism, the psychologist was like, 0:21:06.040 --> 0:21:08.720 I don't actually think you have anxiety. I think the 0:21:08.800 --> 0:21:14.720 anxiety that is that manifest as a result of. 0:21:15.359 --> 0:21:17.760 Well, I think all those things generalize. Anxiety, any sort 0:21:17.800 --> 0:21:21.160 of depression is not inherent. It's like it's caused by 0:21:21.200 --> 0:21:25.760 the fact that you're just as you say, years of 0:21:26.320 --> 0:21:29.720 not getting things right, of being too much of I. 0:21:29.760 --> 0:21:31.919 Think it's easier to go with that anxiety than to 0:21:32.040 --> 0:21:33.720 look and go maybe that's something else. 0:21:34.680 --> 0:21:38.080 So many people, especially women and girls, are diagnosed with 0:21:38.160 --> 0:21:42.800 anxiety or depression before discovering their brain differences. And it's 0:21:42.800 --> 0:21:45.919 not wrong. There are mental health struggles there. It just 0:21:45.920 --> 0:21:47.879 seems to take way too long to get to the 0:21:48.000 --> 0:21:52.560 underlying cause. For Annabelle it got serious as a fifteen 0:21:52.640 --> 0:21:55.200 year old. She was hospitalized with anorexia. 0:22:00.160 --> 0:22:02.600 It was never that I looked at myself when you're 0:22:02.720 --> 0:22:08.920 fat starve. It was more I needed something to control 0:22:09.000 --> 0:22:12.760 in my life. I didn't start intentionally starving myself. It 0:22:12.840 --> 0:22:16.040 was kind of like, Okay, things feel extremely out of control. 0:22:16.080 --> 0:22:18.440