Speaker 1: Kilda.
Speaker 2: I'm Chelsea Daniels and this is the Front Page, a
Speaker 2: daily podcast presented by The New Zealand Herald. Just over
Speaker 2: seventy years after Sir Edmund Hillary first ascended Mount Everest,
Speaker 2: the world's highest peak is grappling with new ethical dilemmas,
Speaker 2: from crowded summit attempts and ecological strain to debates about
Speaker 2: climate preparedness and the treatment of sherper's. Everest's story today
Speaker 2: is just as complex as ever. The Himalayan Trust, founded
Speaker 2: by Sir ed and his wife, continues to support local
Speaker 2: communities at the heart of these challenges. His grandson, Alexander
Speaker 2: Hillary now runs the organization and joins us now on
Speaker 2: the Front Page to discuss what respecting Everest means and
Speaker 2: whether we still do so. Alexander has climbing Mount Everest become,
Speaker 2: I suppose, more of a commercial venture nowadays rather than
Speaker 2: a personal or spiritual challenge.
Speaker 3: Do you think, well, I think it's changed a lot
Speaker 3: over the years. So when my grandfather first climbed it,
Speaker 3: there was all sorts of things going on then as well.
Speaker 3: There was the Commonwealth, but then there was also this
Speaker 3: sort of curiosity for achieving the impossible, I think today,
Speaker 3: you know, whilst in nineteen ninety sort of commercial mountaineering started,
Speaker 3: so it's a really really new industry and I think
Speaker 3: that's what people talk about when they talk about sort
Speaker 3: of climbing Everest is really what's been happening since nineteen
Speaker 3: ninety to today, and it is becoming quite a very
Speaker 3: important commercial venture. There's been a lot of sort of
Speaker 3: negative talk around that, and I think it is important
Speaker 3: to remember that this has you know, enormous value both
Speaker 3: to the Sherpa people, but also you know, to mountaineering
Speaker 3: as a whole, because it's this incredibly iconic thing, climbing Everest.
Speaker 3: It's the epitome of accomplishment for a lot of people.
Speaker 2: What has the booming climbing industry. What kind of effect
Speaker 2: has it had on local Sherber communities, I guess economically,
Speaker 2: socially or culturally even unbelievable.
Speaker 3: So when my grandfather first arrived, you know, in the
Speaker 3: Solukumbu region, which is the Everest region of Nepal, it
Speaker 3: was the poorest region of one of the poorest countries
Speaker 3: in the world. So they were a subsistence farmers living
Speaker 3: in a pretty inhospitable place at high altitude and it
Speaker 3: was very very tough living that they were living having.
Speaker 3: So when the everest industry started, a lot of Nepalis
Speaker 3: would start working in the industry because you could make
Speaker 3: a lot of money through it, and they were very talented,
Speaker 3: you know where looking at high altitude, they were strong,
Speaker 3: well acclimatized. But they would go up onto the mountain
Speaker 3: for a couple of months every year and they would
Speaker 3: make you know, in many cases, and this is the
Speaker 3: case today, they will to make more in a couple
Speaker 3: of months than the average national salary of Nepal. So
Speaker 3: from that perspective, it's well worth the time of getting
Speaker 3: up onto the mountain and spending a couple of months
Speaker 3: of hard work there. And it's just meant huge changes.
Speaker 3: The climbers that are now working on Everest, they own businesses,
Speaker 3: They have trecking businesses, guiding businesses on mount everests, they
Speaker 3: have lodges, shops, helicopter companies even, and it's just meant
Speaker 3: that the change in lives and livelihoods in the region
Speaker 3: is pretty unbelievable.
Speaker 2: And you mentioned kind of the commercial ability. That's not
Speaker 2: even a word, but let's pretend it is. From the
Speaker 2: nineteen nineties onwards. How I guess, how does social media culture,
Speaker 2: how does that even change? I suppose from the mid
Speaker 2: two thousands up until now that that need or want
Speaker 2: or desire or you know, that bucket list kind of
Speaker 2: thing of making it up Everest.
Speaker 1: Yeah.
Speaker 3: Well, it's interesting because you know, Everest is looked at
Speaker 3: as the you know, it's the tallest mountain, and it's
Speaker 3: one of these things that we think of as sort
Speaker 3: of the epitome of accomplishment. But social media is really
Speaker 3: blowing it open and showed us the bit by bit
Speaker 3: sort of steps to achieve a mountain like Everest, and
Speaker 3: I think, you know, that's that's opened up a lot
Speaker 3: of controversy, rubbish cues other people, and I think the
Speaker 3: New Zealanders it can be quite abrupt to see, you know,
Speaker 3: we go to the mountains to sort of be at
Speaker 3: one with nature, to have this experience of solitude and admiration,
Speaker 3: and that's you know, often what we see on Everest.
Speaker 1: You know, at the moment, it's it's not what.
Speaker 3: We see through social media, but there is I think
Speaker 3: there's there's a lot of sort of misguide that nests
Speaker 3: through the stuff that we're seeing on social media.
Speaker 1: For instance, one of the.
Speaker 3: Famous things in recent years has been the cues on Interest.
Speaker 3: But you know, only a few days after that famous
Speaker 3: photo was taken, the mountain was almost empty and climbers
Speaker 3: standing on the salmon of Everest just you know, a
Speaker 3: couple of their teammates. So there is something quite misleading
Speaker 3: about that, But it also has you know, exposed a
Speaker 3: lot of the sort of more complicated truths of the
Speaker 3: risk industry as well.
Speaker 4: Hundreds of people now go up every year, and commercial
Speaker 4: expeditions haven't just significantly increased access to the mountain, they've
Speaker 4: also increased comfort. There are now luxury expeditions that can
Speaker 4: cost up to one hundred and thirty thousand dollars, offering
Speaker 4: things like heated tents with diving tables, and at this
Speaker 4: point we should probably talk about how all those amenities
Speaker 4: and indeed most climbers get up the mountain, and that's
Speaker 4: with shirpers well. The whelming majority of expeditions rely on
Speaker 4: shelpers to do everything from carrying supplies to putting up
Speaker 4: tents to setting the ropes and ladders. They are absolutely
Speaker 4: integral to commercial expeditions, as the sherper will readily tell.
Speaker 2: You how many of the clients that you see coming
Speaker 2: to Everest could do it without you?
Speaker 1: I would say zero zero, yeah, none of them. None
Speaker 1: of them.
Speaker 2: And do you think that social media gives the impression
Speaker 2: that like anyone can go up there? I mean, you
Speaker 2: do have to put in the hard yards and train
Speaker 2: for months before heading to Everest.
Speaker 3: I would think, well, months or years really, And I
Speaker 3: think that's where things have gotten a bit wrong, because
Speaker 3: before nineteen nineteen, for two thousand, you know, this was
Speaker 3: the pinnacle of achievement of a mountaineous career. That might
Speaker 3: be you know, they may have started climbing in their
Speaker 3: twenties and then in their late forties they finally go
Speaker 3: right to I'm going to go for Everest and they
Speaker 3: climb it. And difference between Like in those days when
Speaker 3: my dad climbed it, they were climbing in a team,
Speaker 3: but they were each responsible for decisions themselves. They decided well,
Speaker 3: they cooked for themselves, They made decisions about snow conditions,
Speaker 3: about weather, about when to turn back, about how to
Speaker 3: climb the mountain. Today that's not happening so much.
Speaker 1: A lot of that.
Speaker 3: Responsibility is being put to guides and I think that's
Speaker 3: that is a bit of an issue, is you've got
Speaker 3: people showing up to the mountain that haven't put in
Speaker 3: the work required to turn themselves into a really skilled mountaineer.
Speaker 3: You know, you need to be a really skilled mountaineer
Speaker 3: to take on Mount Everest. It's not good enough just
Speaker 3: to have a very basic understanding, you know, of snowcraft.
Speaker 3: And I think you know, social media and this whole
Speaker 3: sort of attitude around the youngest or stuff like that
Speaker 3: of being the first person does sort of stray us
Speaker 3: away from what mountaineering is really about.
Speaker 2: And what is mountaineering really about?
Speaker 1: Well, I think that's.
Speaker 3: Different question for each person, but I think mountaineering on
Speaker 3: its whole is like what's so you know, rewarding about
Speaker 3: mountaineering is it's about the challenge, and it's about proficiency
Speaker 3: of skills. You know, you have to make decisions around
Speaker 3: whether your own personal ability, you know, the snow conditions,
Speaker 3: and it's it's about sort of gaining those skills and
Speaker 3: then putting your those skills to practice in the mountain
Speaker 3: environment and coming out successful and alive. And you know,
Speaker 3: it's it's an amazing sport to be involved in, but
Speaker 3: you need to be careful because the consequences are incredibly serious,
Speaker 3: not just for yourself but for others as well. And
Speaker 3: I yeah, I think we need to go back to
Speaker 3: sort of those roots of mountaineering and remember, you know,
Speaker 3: what's at stake, And how do we do that?
Speaker 2: Do you think do we restrict people? Do they need
Speaker 2: a special certificate like I've mountaineered to Certificate five so
Speaker 2: I can tackle Everest or something like that. How do
Speaker 2: we stop people who are so unprepared from giving it
Speaker 2: a go.
Speaker 3: Well, I think, you know, there's a certain amount of
Speaker 3: sort of rules and regulations that you can solve with this.
Speaker 3: But ultimately, and Nepal is doing some of that stuff.
Speaker 3: They're saying you now need to climb a six thousand
Speaker 3: meter peak in Nepal before you tackle.
Speaker 1: An eight thousand meter peak. But rarely this needs to.
Speaker 3: Come from a cultural shift, a shift where we acknowledge that,
Speaker 3: you know, before you climb Everest, you need to be
Speaker 3: able to climb Mount Rupe who and you know be
Speaker 3: able to do you know, just take small steps up
Speaker 3: towards big goals and remember that you know you can't.
Speaker 3: While it may be extraordinary to go from zero to
Speaker 3: one hundred from nothing to climbing Everest. It's better to
Speaker 3: build those skills, build that experience.
Speaker 1: Up to an incredible accomplishment.
Speaker 3: And I think there's something way more rewarding about that
Speaker 3: journey to than just being able to say I ticked
Speaker 3: the box.
Speaker 1: I still on the summit of Everest.
Speaker 2: Because you see online, don't you that people like, well,
Speaker 2: should we ban it all together? Is it the end
Speaker 2: of you know, traveling up Everest? Should we leave it
Speaker 2: alone or something? But in reality, if a full ban
Speaker 2: was to take place, the Nepalese community would suffer immensely, right,
Speaker 2: Like a lot of them require this tourism industry to
Speaker 2: stay alive, absolutely.
Speaker 3: So, Like the Hamlan Trust was set up with my
Speaker 3: grandfather and he recognized that there was this great need
Speaker 3: for sort of education and healthcare and different infrastructure to projects.
Speaker 3: And we've been working on that for over sixty years.
Speaker 3: But you know the other part of that is the
Speaker 3: economy and industry, and Everest is the center of that
Speaker 3: for the people that we're working with. It's what draws
Speaker 3: people in, It's what provides tourism jobs, it's what funds
Speaker 3: and fuels agriculture and all different trading so it is
Speaker 3: really really critical. But you know, again I sort of
Speaker 3: think about it. You know, Everest is is like you
Speaker 3: know the Milford Sound, you know, for Nepal, we can't
Speaker 3: just shut it off and say no one's going to
Speaker 3: go there. It's this where we're both countries that are
Speaker 3: really lucky to have these really special tongue are these
Speaker 3: special places of you know, international global significance, and we
Speaker 3: need to learn how to to you know, look after
Speaker 3: them sustainably, to cherish them, and to develop a really
Speaker 3: good culture around interacting with these places, these spaces, not
Speaker 3: sort of having a reactionary sort of we're going to
Speaker 3: shut this off or we're going to just totally totally
Speaker 3: blow it open, and that's not you know, I think
Speaker 3: it's something that comes from rules and regulation. That's something
Speaker 3: you know, a cultural shift that we need to create.
Speaker 2: Yeah, do you think that we've lost respect for Mount Everest?
Speaker 3: I think maybe a little bit. But I think there
Speaker 3: are so many people that you know, love that mountain
Speaker 3: and have so much respect for the mountain. You know,
Speaker 3: the shirt people, it's of enormous significance. It's chom Longma,
Speaker 3: It's the mother god of the world. And I think,
Speaker 3: you know, it is a beautiful mountain despite everything that
Speaker 3: gets said about it. It's got so many different aspects,
Speaker 3: beautiful routes that haven't been climbed some of them, and
Speaker 3: people doing amazing things and sort of you know, just recently,
Speaker 3: Jim Morrison did an incredible first ski descent off down
Speaker 3: off Mountain Everest on the north side, which is just
Speaker 3: this sort of wonderful, hopeful, exciting story of mountaineering and accomplishment,
Speaker 3: really pushing the envelope of what can be achieved, and
Speaker 3: it was something that sort of, I guess honored the mountain,
Speaker 3: and I think we need to sort of, you know,
Speaker 3: really connect with that, and each person that wants to
Speaker 3: sort of go and climb Everest and embark on that adventure,
Speaker 3: I think needs to do it from a place of respect,
Speaker 3: not for themselves, not for a LinkedIn post or you know,
Speaker 3: sort of a self promotion thing.
Speaker 2: Yeah, I got up there with a selfie stick or something.
Speaker 5: That One of the effects of high altitude is it's
Speaker 5: a little bit like having a dose of influenza almost.
Speaker 5: Being a high altitude, a lot of your energy and
Speaker 5: a lot of your drive tends to be sapped, and
Speaker 5: people feel fit and able to cope with altitude at
Speaker 5: different times, even during a single you know, the few
Speaker 5: months of an expedition. So obviously you've got to get
Speaker 5: people who are well acclimatized, who have the drive and
Speaker 5: the enthusiasm at the right time in order to sort
Speaker 5: of throw them towards the summit and say go to it.
Speaker 5: And it is conceivable, though an actual fact, I'm intending
Speaker 5: an eye worfit throughout the expedition. It would be conceivable
Speaker 5: that at the start of an expedition there might be
Speaker 5: a couple of people who would have been more suited
Speaker 5: to the summer than later on. But there was I
Speaker 5: don't think there was much doubt. At the latter stay
Speaker 5: of the expedition. We were very fit and we were
Speaker 5: very strong, so we were selected by the expedition leader
Speaker 5: was John Hunt, as the people to put in the
Speaker 5: final show.
Speaker 2: So you mentioned obviously the Himalayan Trust before Sir Edmund
Speaker 2: and Louise Hillary founded that in the nineteen sixties. And
Speaker 2: while everyone obviously connects him to being the first to
Speaker 2: have reached the summit, to ed his greatest achievement was
Speaker 2: not climbing Everest, but in fact it was helping the
Speaker 2: people of Nepal. Tell me a little bit about this
Speaker 2: trust and the work that it does.
Speaker 1: Well.
Speaker 3: Yeah, so my grandfather and my grandmother founded it in
Speaker 3: the nineteen sixties and the Trust essentially over the years
Speaker 3: has built you know, schools and hospitals, forestry, nurseres, water systems,
Speaker 3: all sorts of things for the shared people.
Speaker 1: I should say, it's not just it.
Speaker 3: It was lots of kiwis, you know, from all over
Speaker 3: New Zealand that would come in, you know, lawyers that would.
Speaker 1: Help with different things.
Speaker 3: Builders, you know, doctors, teachers, a whole range of different
Speaker 3: people that would give their time. And over the years
Speaker 3: it's achieved a lot. You know, we've built many, many schools.
Speaker 3: We're now supporting over one hundred schools throughout the region
Speaker 3: and hospitals as well, and so it's this amazing legacy
Speaker 3: for New Zealand. You know, New Zealanders have been engaged
Speaker 3: in the three region a huge amount and I think
Speaker 3: that's really special and it was actually amazing to sort
Speaker 3: of celebrate that connection when we had a visit by
Speaker 3: the Minister for Foreign Affairs Winston Peter's earlier this year.
Speaker 3: And I think that was an amazing acknowledgment of that
Speaker 3: connection because there's been a huge amount of Kiwis that
Speaker 3: have contributed a lot to Himalayan communities and it continues
Speaker 3: to this day. We continue to support the schools and
Speaker 3: hospitals and we're actually partnering at the moment with another
Speaker 3: amazing sort of New Zealand based organization called Edgitech, which
Speaker 3: comes out of christ Church Micro and she Autrism, and
Speaker 3: we're building computer aps together. So we've built fifty computer
Speaker 3: ads in the past five years. And I think what's
Speaker 3: really special about it is it's this sort of quite
Speaker 3: uniquely Kiwis story of adventure and philanthropy sort of blended together,
Speaker 3: about going and challenging herself doing a big adventure, but
Speaker 3: also sort of carrying others with you and supporting people.
Speaker 3: And I think it's a really heart warming story that
Speaker 3: a lot of Kiwis can sider get behind.
Speaker 2: And I suppose you've been over there for fair few times.
Speaker 2: What are the people like and what do they think
Speaker 2: of New Zealand? Do they know who Sir d is.
Speaker 3: It's been a huge amount of his life, you know,
Speaker 3: in Nepal doing all these projects. In fact, he was
Speaker 3: building a house at one stage before my grandmother died
Speaker 3: in the region there and yeah, look they know him
Speaker 3: very very fondly, and they know a lot about New Zealand.
Speaker 3: I think for a lot of you know, Nepalese people
Speaker 3: is a great kinship with Kiwis and if you say
Speaker 3: you come from New Zealand, there'll always be this sort of.
Speaker 1: Excitement around it, which is really really wonderful.
Speaker 2: I'd love to get over there, but I for one,
Speaker 2: not that I will be not you know, it won't
Speaker 2: be in mountaineering, any mountains or anything like that. I'll
Speaker 2: keep my feet firmly on the ground.
Speaker 1: I guess in your view.
Speaker 2: Lastly, what would make a more ethical sustainable everest climbing industry?
Speaker 2: Say if I gave you ten years and an unlimited budget.
Speaker 3: Well, I think you know, there's there's the sustainability of
Speaker 3: you know, getting supplies and equipment up onto the mountain safely.
Speaker 3: And it's really interesting to see what some of the
Speaker 3: organizations are doing. Government organizations in Nepal are doing using
Speaker 3: drone technology to try and get trash off the mountain
Speaker 3: without having to risk people's lives. So initiatives like that
Speaker 3: I think are really exciting. But ultimately I think it's
Speaker 3: it's really about around building up strength in the industry
Speaker 3: so that these businesses can essentially make sure that their
Speaker 3: clients have the skills that they need because that's what's required,
Speaker 3: and that there is this sort of I guess acceptance
Speaker 3: of the fact that you have to do your apprenticeship.
Speaker 3: You can't just show up without the skills and rely
Speaker 3: on someone else to look after you and keep you safe,
Speaker 3: because at the end of the day, those people also
Speaker 3: need to keep themselves safe for their families. So I
Speaker 3: think it's about building that sort of that culture and
Speaker 3: ensuring that the local people have the ability to stand
Speaker 3: up and actually say say no, you can come back
Speaker 3: when you've done this and that, and then we'd love
Speaker 3: to take you up and share this amazing, beautiful mountain
Speaker 3: with you.
Speaker 2: Thanks so much for joining us, Alexander, Thanks so much.
Speaker 2: That's it for this episode of The Front Page. You
Speaker 2: can read more about today's stories and extensive news coverage
Speaker 2: at enzidherld dot co dot nz. The Front Page is
Speaker 2: produced by Jane Ye and Richard Martin, who all so
Speaker 2: our editor, I'm Chelsea Daniels. Subscribe to the Front Page
Speaker 2: on iHeartRadio or wherever you get your podcasts, and tune
Speaker 2: in tomorrow for another look behind the headlines.