1 00:00:00,680 --> 00:00:03,600 Speaker 1: The Huddle with New Zealand Southeby's International Realty. 2 00:00:03,720 --> 00:00:06,360 Speaker 2: Find your one of a kind on the Huddle with 3 00:00:06,440 --> 00:00:08,800 Speaker 2: us The Seeing We have Liam here, political commentator, also 4 00:00:08,880 --> 00:00:10,600 Speaker 2: lawyer and Jack Tame host a Q and A and 5 00:00:10,640 --> 00:00:14,720 Speaker 2: Saturday Mornings on z B. Hello you two, Liam, So, 6 00:00:14,800 --> 00:00:16,640 Speaker 2: as a lawyer, what do you reckon? Should we destroy 7 00:00:16,680 --> 00:00:18,880 Speaker 2: this personal property or leave open the option to give 8 00:00:18,920 --> 00:00:19,239 Speaker 2: it back? 9 00:00:20,320 --> 00:00:23,680 Speaker 3: We shouldn't destroy it unless the government's got the express 10 00:00:23,720 --> 00:00:27,280 Speaker 3: power to do so. Like I'm not against the gang 11 00:00:27,320 --> 00:00:31,040 Speaker 3: Patch band, I'm also often very critical of the courts 12 00:00:31,160 --> 00:00:35,479 Speaker 3: overtpping their bounds. But if the law, it's a statute, 13 00:00:35,560 --> 00:00:38,440 Speaker 3: says that the crime is wearing it in public and 14 00:00:38,520 --> 00:00:42,120 Speaker 3: it doesn't mandate that we destroyed after it be sees. Actually, 15 00:00:42,200 --> 00:00:43,960 Speaker 3: it seems like the judge that she just made a 16 00:00:44,040 --> 00:00:47,159 Speaker 3: ruling in accordance with the actual law as written, and 17 00:00:47,240 --> 00:00:49,600 Speaker 3: if there's a problem with that, the law needs to 18 00:00:49,600 --> 00:00:52,560 Speaker 3: be updated and changed. The judge is not allowed this 19 00:00:52,600 --> 00:00:54,520 Speaker 3: person so weird gang patch child? 20 00:00:54,800 --> 00:00:56,880 Speaker 2: But what do you reckon? Liam? Do we update the 21 00:00:56,960 --> 00:00:59,000 Speaker 2: law to destroy something like this? 22 00:00:59,760 --> 00:01:04,520 Speaker 3: Well, look, I'm not really sure that that the squeez 23 00:01:04,560 --> 00:01:06,120 Speaker 3: woul be worth the juice to be honest with you, 24 00:01:06,240 --> 00:01:08,399 Speaker 3: I mean, you know, like, so what he's got it now, 25 00:01:08,480 --> 00:01:10,720 Speaker 3: he can't the mischief as wearing it in public. He 26 00:01:10,760 --> 00:01:12,600 Speaker 3: can't wear it in public. He's not allowed to wear 27 00:01:12,600 --> 00:01:14,920 Speaker 3: it in public as you say he can. He can 28 00:01:14,920 --> 00:01:16,679 Speaker 3: stitch it on his bathroobe and wear it around the 29 00:01:16,680 --> 00:01:19,080 Speaker 3: house for or I care. It's actually the law is 30 00:01:19,200 --> 00:01:22,400 Speaker 3: not to be there to be redate public behavior, not 31 00:01:22,800 --> 00:01:24,080 Speaker 3: behaved behind closed dollars. 32 00:01:24,160 --> 00:01:29,000 Speaker 4: Jack, Yeah, I agree. I mean, if they wanted the 33 00:01:29,080 --> 00:01:31,800 Speaker 4: patch to be destroyed every time it was worn in public, 34 00:01:32,080 --> 00:01:35,520 Speaker 4: then they did have the option as lawmakers to express 35 00:01:35,560 --> 00:01:38,920 Speaker 4: that in the statue, and they were told yeah, yeah, 36 00:01:38,959 --> 00:01:41,680 Speaker 4: and they chose not to, which means the judge has 37 00:01:41,720 --> 00:01:44,280 Speaker 4: the option of discretion, which means you can exercise that 38 00:01:44,319 --> 00:01:47,280 Speaker 4: discression and it doesn't get destroyed. I mean, that being said, 39 00:01:48,280 --> 00:01:51,880 Speaker 4: this whole law is supposed to dissuade gang members from 40 00:01:51,920 --> 00:01:55,280 Speaker 4: wearing their gang insignia in public, and I have to say, 41 00:01:55,320 --> 00:01:57,560 Speaker 4: as someone who was pretty skeptical about whether or not 42 00:01:57,640 --> 00:02:01,600 Speaker 4: this would work, I think it's been extremely effect so far. 43 00:02:02,080 --> 00:02:05,360 Speaker 4: But that being said, would updating the law to mandate 44 00:02:05,400 --> 00:02:08,960 Speaker 4: the destruction of gang patches have a meaningful difference on 45 00:02:09,080 --> 00:02:12,200 Speaker 4: gang behaviors as it stands, I'm not sure it really would. 46 00:02:12,320 --> 00:02:14,800 Speaker 4: Is there anyone who would have worn it in public 47 00:02:14,960 --> 00:02:17,800 Speaker 4: now who will say, actually, now that my patch is 48 00:02:17,800 --> 00:02:19,799 Speaker 4: going to be destroyed. If I'm called in tublic, I 49 00:02:19,800 --> 00:02:21,519 Speaker 4: won't simply be charged with wearing it in public. It 50 00:02:21,520 --> 00:02:23,840 Speaker 4: will also be destroyed. That's going to be the difference 51 00:02:23,840 --> 00:02:25,760 Speaker 4: in the wearing it in public. I don't think that. 52 00:02:26,280 --> 00:02:28,639 Speaker 3: It's like when you when your teacher took away your frisbee, 53 00:02:28,880 --> 00:02:30,960 Speaker 3: you know, and when you're playing with the frisbee class 54 00:02:31,080 --> 00:02:32,799 Speaker 3: and you could give it at the end of the day. 55 00:02:33,480 --> 00:02:36,480 Speaker 3: You know, that's the problem, isn't frisbee? Is the problem is? 56 00:02:36,600 --> 00:02:39,799 Speaker 3: You know, is what happened? 57 00:02:42,160 --> 00:02:42,400 Speaker 4: Then? 58 00:02:42,520 --> 00:02:43,840 Speaker 3: Well it is? That is what happens. 59 00:02:43,919 --> 00:02:44,880 Speaker 2: It is what happened to you. 60 00:02:45,960 --> 00:02:47,760 Speaker 3: Well, I've got the phys taken away from me. Yeah. 61 00:02:47,760 --> 00:02:49,520 Speaker 3: Once it's a very specific example. 62 00:02:49,600 --> 00:02:52,280 Speaker 2: Yeah, I'm the reason I'm fascinated by this. I never 63 00:02:52,320 --> 00:02:54,440 Speaker 2: threw a frisbee in class. It wouldn't occur to me 64 00:02:54,480 --> 00:02:55,640 Speaker 2: that would be something that I would be. 65 00:02:55,600 --> 00:02:57,720 Speaker 4: Able to and would have would have loved to have. 66 00:02:57,840 --> 00:03:00,880 Speaker 4: Alternatively used an anecdote as twelve as a patch member 67 00:03:00,919 --> 00:03:12,560 Speaker 4: of there. 68 00:03:06,800 --> 00:03:08,600 Speaker 2: Are things you can do in class that you can 69 00:03:08,639 --> 00:03:11,320 Speaker 2: get away with, you know, like texting on your phone maybe, 70 00:03:11,400 --> 00:03:14,160 Speaker 2: I don't know, sticking, sticking a pen in somebody's pocket, 71 00:03:14,440 --> 00:03:17,360 Speaker 2: throwing a frisbee. You're gonna get busted, mate, You now 72 00:03:17,960 --> 00:03:20,280 Speaker 2: frisbee back at the end of the day. Yeah, well, 73 00:03:20,320 --> 00:03:22,840 Speaker 2: I suppose Listen, Jack, what do you think about the 74 00:03:22,919 --> 00:03:25,480 Speaker 2: Shannon Helbert, He's complained that Rawdi White is he should 75 00:03:25,480 --> 00:03:28,359 Speaker 2: answer all questions in Maori and in English, because if 76 00:03:28,360 --> 00:03:31,200 Speaker 2: he just answers in Marti, he's creating an exclusive bunch 77 00:03:31,200 --> 00:03:31,720 Speaker 2: of Maori. 78 00:03:33,240 --> 00:03:37,720 Speaker 4: Well, I I have kind of evolved in my thinking 79 00:03:37,720 --> 00:03:39,640 Speaker 4: a little bit over over the years, and that I 80 00:03:39,680 --> 00:03:42,760 Speaker 4: think tedl Maori is a tonga. I think it's really 81 00:03:42,960 --> 00:03:45,360 Speaker 4: really valuable. I think it's a treasure in New Zealand. 82 00:03:45,400 --> 00:03:49,720 Speaker 4: That being said, I don't think you bring anyone along 83 00:03:50,320 --> 00:03:53,560 Speaker 4: if you make them feel excluded, and if you use 84 00:03:53,640 --> 00:03:56,840 Speaker 4: language in a way that excludes people, I using it 85 00:03:56,880 --> 00:04:01,200 Speaker 4: without translating it, I think that explicitly excludes people. And 86 00:04:01,240 --> 00:04:03,200 Speaker 4: I think a lot of to party Marti's actions at 87 00:04:03,200 --> 00:04:07,000 Speaker 4: the moment can be best described as appealing to their 88 00:04:07,040 --> 00:04:10,280 Speaker 4: core base and they're extremely effective at doing that. But 89 00:04:10,520 --> 00:04:12,560 Speaker 4: my big critique when it comes to the party is 90 00:04:12,640 --> 00:04:15,600 Speaker 4: I think if they're defined themselves in a position to 91 00:04:15,720 --> 00:04:18,920 Speaker 4: govern to affect the change that they actually want to make, 92 00:04:19,200 --> 00:04:21,560 Speaker 4: then at some point I think that strategy is going 93 00:04:21,600 --> 00:04:24,920 Speaker 4: to have to change. And I don't think those Jacks 94 00:04:25,200 --> 00:04:25,400 Speaker 4: in a. 95 00:04:25,400 --> 00:04:28,120 Speaker 2: Way hasn't in a way, hasn't Shannon actually hit on 96 00:04:28,160 --> 00:04:30,720 Speaker 2: the very thing that the Maori Party is trying to do, 97 00:04:30,760 --> 00:04:33,520 Speaker 2: which is that they are really you'd have to say, 98 00:04:33,640 --> 00:04:36,200 Speaker 2: judging by their actions, that there is an elite group 99 00:04:36,240 --> 00:04:37,920 Speaker 2: of mary as far as they're concerned in that, and 100 00:04:37,960 --> 00:04:39,520 Speaker 2: I don't think they want to bring people with them. 101 00:04:39,760 --> 00:04:41,080 Speaker 2: They are doing enough in them thing. 102 00:04:42,080 --> 00:04:45,159 Speaker 4: Well look, look, I mean, I just don't think there's 103 00:04:45,200 --> 00:04:49,800 Speaker 4: one view in how Mardi necessarily and I certainly think 104 00:04:49,839 --> 00:04:52,800 Speaker 4: that the way that to party Maori have designed all 105 00:04:52,839 --> 00:04:54,560 Speaker 4: of their messaging and all of their reach out on 106 00:04:54,560 --> 00:04:58,119 Speaker 4: social media has been extremely effective and connecting with people 107 00:04:58,120 --> 00:05:01,480 Speaker 4: who feel really energized by the kind of collective view 108 00:05:01,560 --> 00:05:04,920 Speaker 4: of mardydom. And yeah, I can see how for some 109 00:05:04,960 --> 00:05:08,760 Speaker 4: people that would feel exclusionary, but to my core point, 110 00:05:09,040 --> 00:05:12,680 Speaker 4: like the problem is if they isolate themselves from labor 111 00:05:13,000 --> 00:05:16,119 Speaker 4: much further, I just cannot see how the Party Mardi 112 00:05:16,240 --> 00:05:17,719 Speaker 4: is going to be able to turn all of this 113 00:05:17,960 --> 00:05:20,160 Speaker 4: energy and momentum that they've built over the last few 114 00:05:20,200 --> 00:05:23,640 Speaker 4: years very impressively into actually affecting the change that they 115 00:05:23,640 --> 00:05:24,479 Speaker 4: say is so important. 116 00:05:24,640 --> 00:05:27,240 Speaker 2: Yeah, I'm not even sure that they want. 117 00:05:26,000 --> 00:05:30,760 Speaker 1: The huddle with New Zealand Southby's International Realty the global 118 00:05:30,839 --> 00:05:32,839 Speaker 1: leader in luxury real estate. 119 00:05:32,680 --> 00:05:35,599 Speaker 2: Right back with the huddle lim here and Jack same Liam, 120 00:05:35,640 --> 00:05:36,320 Speaker 2: what do you reckon? 121 00:05:37,000 --> 00:05:39,520 Speaker 3: Look, there are two ways to look at this, and 122 00:05:39,720 --> 00:05:43,000 Speaker 3: the first is is that English is the vernacular language 123 00:05:43,000 --> 00:05:44,880 Speaker 3: of New Zealand, right and it is the language of 124 00:05:44,920 --> 00:05:47,400 Speaker 3: the people. It's a lingua francla. So if you are 125 00:05:47,440 --> 00:05:51,559 Speaker 3: in government, to refuse to answer in English is actually 126 00:05:51,960 --> 00:05:54,560 Speaker 3: putting the bird to the whole the country. But the 127 00:05:54,600 --> 00:05:57,680 Speaker 3: second aspect of it is that he's not in government. 128 00:05:57,800 --> 00:06:00,840 Speaker 3: He isn't actually in government. He is he's only an MP. 129 00:06:01,760 --> 00:06:04,280 Speaker 3: He's got constituents. But it does mean that, you know, 130 00:06:04,320 --> 00:06:06,000 Speaker 3: there is there's a bit more scope and there's a 131 00:06:06,040 --> 00:06:09,160 Speaker 3: bit more room to make points because he's only accountable 132 00:06:09,839 --> 00:06:13,039 Speaker 3: to his own constituents. And I actually think the politics 133 00:06:13,040 --> 00:06:16,640 Speaker 3: of it from just not necessarily from a coalition perspective, 134 00:06:16,680 --> 00:06:19,400 Speaker 3: but just from a TPM perspective. The politics of it 135 00:06:19,440 --> 00:06:22,360 Speaker 3: are smart because he's going to get in the headlines more. 136 00:06:23,240 --> 00:06:25,760 Speaker 3: He's going to he's going to wrestle fore others more. 137 00:06:25,760 --> 00:06:28,320 Speaker 3: He's going to increase the profile of his party more 138 00:06:28,640 --> 00:06:31,680 Speaker 3: by pulling stunts like this as opposed to actually answering 139 00:06:31,760 --> 00:06:34,440 Speaker 3: the questions. If he just answered the questions, we wouldn't 140 00:06:34,440 --> 00:06:36,480 Speaker 3: be talking about it, probably wouldn't have made the news. 141 00:06:36,880 --> 00:06:39,400 Speaker 3: But but but he but by doing this, he has 142 00:06:39,400 --> 00:06:43,279 Speaker 3: made himself a story that's that's probably smart politics, probably 143 00:06:43,320 --> 00:06:45,640 Speaker 3: not great for the party in terms of endearing itself 144 00:06:45,680 --> 00:06:48,039 Speaker 3: to the whole of the country, but that's not his 145 00:06:48,120 --> 00:06:51,440 Speaker 3: aim and and and he's not he's not a government 146 00:06:51,560 --> 00:06:54,440 Speaker 3: MP minister, though he's got a bit more rope. 147 00:06:54,720 --> 00:06:56,920 Speaker 4: This is like just a fundamental point and it's one 148 00:06:56,920 --> 00:06:59,080 Speaker 4: that you can apply to so much into Paki Marti's 149 00:06:59,080 --> 00:07:00,680 Speaker 4: actions of the last Cup of the years. I mean, 150 00:07:00,720 --> 00:07:02,479 Speaker 4: regardless of what you think as a party, what you 151 00:07:02,480 --> 00:07:05,599 Speaker 4: think of their policies, they have been extremely effective in 152 00:07:05,680 --> 00:07:12,360 Speaker 4: opposition and capturing headlines and you know, action act stunts 153 00:07:12,400 --> 00:07:16,280 Speaker 4: even that absolutely and endear them to their own constituents 154 00:07:16,280 --> 00:07:19,200 Speaker 4: and supporters. It doesn't necessarily build a huge consensus across 155 00:07:19,200 --> 00:07:23,160 Speaker 4: the entire elector. When it comes to building building support 156 00:07:23,200 --> 00:07:26,400 Speaker 4: and maintaining support with their own supporters have been incredibly 157 00:07:26,440 --> 00:07:27,880 Speaker 4: effect What we've. 158 00:07:27,720 --> 00:07:30,679 Speaker 3: Seen over the last sort of six years of politics 159 00:07:30,680 --> 00:07:33,040 Speaker 3: and the Zeeland is that if you're a small party, 160 00:07:33,240 --> 00:07:36,400 Speaker 3: your voters will reward your bad behavior. You know that 161 00:07:37,320 --> 00:07:40,080 Speaker 3: whenever the Greens have a scandal, they only go up 162 00:07:40,120 --> 00:07:42,400 Speaker 3: in the polls. You know, whenever in the zero first 163 00:07:42,480 --> 00:07:44,960 Speaker 3: or actor bad coalition partners they go up in the polls. 164 00:07:45,280 --> 00:07:47,239 Speaker 3: So I think small parties in New Zealand have cracked 165 00:07:47,240 --> 00:07:49,800 Speaker 3: the code to survival, which is the means of perpetual 166 00:07:49,880 --> 00:07:50,480 Speaker 3: bad boys. 167 00:07:51,000 --> 00:07:53,800 Speaker 2: Yeah, fair point. Now on an adjacent subject, Jack, what 168 00:07:53,840 --> 00:07:56,560 Speaker 2: do you make of the argument that anybody who has 169 00:07:56,600 --> 00:07:59,960 Speaker 2: Malory descent should be able to automatically claim citizenship. 170 00:08:00,800 --> 00:08:03,720 Speaker 4: Yeah, I think it's going to be unrealistic. It's not 171 00:08:03,800 --> 00:08:06,280 Speaker 4: to say that I think there should be a blanket 172 00:08:06,400 --> 00:08:09,440 Speaker 4: exclusionary rule like I think Keisha Castle Hughes example, is 173 00:08:09,480 --> 00:08:12,880 Speaker 4: a good example of someone who I think has enduring 174 00:08:12,960 --> 00:08:15,640 Speaker 4: ties like that might be a good A good the 175 00:08:15,720 --> 00:08:18,800 Speaker 4: artistic or measure by which to test people's relationship. But 176 00:08:19,080 --> 00:08:23,200 Speaker 4: also there are consequences like if you if you or 177 00:08:23,360 --> 00:08:27,400 Speaker 4: your you know, or your parents or grandparents decide to 178 00:08:27,480 --> 00:08:30,440 Speaker 4: leave New Zealand and you're born elsewhere, and then another 179 00:08:30,560 --> 00:08:34,239 Speaker 4: generations born elsewhere. Alfinitely there are consequences to those decisions. 180 00:08:34,480 --> 00:08:36,679 Speaker 4: And I think, you know, I can't see you're being 181 00:08:36,960 --> 00:08:41,640 Speaker 4: widespread political support for this, except to say that maybe 182 00:08:41,800 --> 00:08:44,480 Speaker 4: a kind of enduring ties link could be applied to 183 00:08:44,760 --> 00:08:48,560 Speaker 4: all people of New Zealand heritage overseas. 184 00:08:48,760 --> 00:08:50,680 Speaker 2: I mean, Liam, isn't it simply that if we do 185 00:08:50,760 --> 00:08:53,560 Speaker 2: this for anyone who's of Mari descent, you do it 186 00:08:53,559 --> 00:08:55,559 Speaker 2: for everybody of New Zealand descent, and then it just 187 00:08:55,600 --> 00:08:56,760 Speaker 2: gets ridiculous. 188 00:08:57,320 --> 00:09:02,520 Speaker 3: Well, it's not fully unprecedent when it comes to ethnic groups. 189 00:09:02,559 --> 00:09:05,320 Speaker 3: And you know, and in Israel, as an example, we 190 00:09:05,400 --> 00:09:08,200 Speaker 3: have the right of return. And I know that in 191 00:09:08,280 --> 00:09:10,560 Speaker 3: Hungary they sort of extend quite a lot of rights 192 00:09:10,600 --> 00:09:14,320 Speaker 3: to you know, ethnic Hungarians and sort of neighboring countries, 193 00:09:14,320 --> 00:09:17,800 Speaker 3: including the right to move back to Hungary. But at 194 00:09:17,800 --> 00:09:20,400 Speaker 3: the end of the day, that's you know, citizenship is 195 00:09:20,400 --> 00:09:22,800 Speaker 3: not a racial construct. In New Zealand. You know, we 196 00:09:23,160 --> 00:09:27,160 Speaker 3: don't award citizenship by race, and there's just no way 197 00:09:27,160 --> 00:09:29,480 Speaker 3: that you can move off that paradigm, off that sort 198 00:09:29,480 --> 00:09:31,880 Speaker 3: of idea that we're not an ethno state, that we're 199 00:09:31,920 --> 00:09:35,439 Speaker 3: a civic country first and foremost, and accommodate this. You 200 00:09:35,520 --> 00:09:38,439 Speaker 3: just can't. So while I can understand, I mean, who 201 00:09:38,440 --> 00:09:40,400 Speaker 3: wouldn't want to be a New Zealand citizen, especially if 202 00:09:40,679 --> 00:09:43,040 Speaker 3: you've got an ethnic identity that's tied back to the place, 203 00:09:43,880 --> 00:09:46,520 Speaker 3: but the same you know, I can't get Irish ship. 204 00:09:46,520 --> 00:09:48,040 Speaker 3: At some point you're just going to say the connection 205 00:09:48,120 --> 00:09:48,760 Speaker 3: is too remote. 206 00:09:48,960 --> 00:09:50,880 Speaker 2: Yeah, fair point. Hey guys, it's been lovely to chat, 207 00:09:50,880 --> 00:09:52,800 Speaker 2: do you. Thank you so much. Enjoy your evening, Jack 208 00:09:52,840 --> 00:09:53,960 Speaker 2: Tame Liam here a huddle. 209 00:09:54,640 --> 00:09:57,800 Speaker 1: For more from Heather Duplessy Allen Drive, Listen live to 210 00:09:57,920 --> 00:10:00,959 Speaker 1: news talks. It'd be from four pm week or follow 211 00:10:01,000 --> 00:10:02,760 Speaker 1: the podcast on iHeartRadio.