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Speaker 1: You're listening to a podcast from news talks it B.

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Speaker 1: Follow this and our wide range of podcasts now on iHeartRadio.

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Speaker 1: It's time for all the attitude, all the opinion, all

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Speaker 1: the information, all the debates of the US Now the

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Speaker 1: Leyton Smith Podcast powered by news talks it B.

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Speaker 2: Welcome to podcast two hundred and ninety four for twenty

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Speaker 2: three July twenty twenty five years ago. In fact, too

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Speaker 2: many years ago. I formed an opinion and exercised that

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Speaker 2: opinion on radio. The subject of abortion and euthanasia were

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Speaker 2: off the menu. Off the menu unless there was an

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Speaker 2: injection into the subject of some new element of scientific

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Speaker 2: or moral value. This wasn't rudeness or arrogance on my part,

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Speaker 2: simply a practicality. The same old arguments can become tedious

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Speaker 2: no matter one's personal beliefs. The two subjects are connected, obviously,

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Speaker 2: because they both take a life. The most recent, of course,

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Speaker 2: was the US Supreme Court's decision in Roe v. Wade.

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Speaker 2: It was volcanic. In fact, it still is now. If

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Speaker 2: you ask yourself the question, which is the most acceptable,

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Speaker 2: or maybe it'd be better to say, which is the

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Speaker 2: most unacceptable? Abortion or euthanasia? And the reason that I

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Speaker 2: asked that is because I have a book, of course,

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Speaker 2: a book called Life's Dominion, An Argument about Abortion and Euthanasia,

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Speaker 2: written by an academic, Ronald Dwarkin. He was a very

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Speaker 2: successful academic. He was American. He became a top flying

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Speaker 2: shall we say, a professor of law, and he ended

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Speaker 2: up by spending half his year in New York and

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Speaker 2: the other half of the year in London, where he

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Speaker 2: taught I think at Oxford. From memory, the book is

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Speaker 2: an interesting one because of the way he manages his discussions.

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Speaker 2: But the point that I wanted to make was here,

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Speaker 2: you have a book and I argue it about abortion

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Speaker 2: and euthanasia. Now, which is the most important Well, abortion is,

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Speaker 2: of course, why because it gets five of the eight chapters,

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Speaker 2: and so therefore there is much more to discuss about it,

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Speaker 2: much more to argue about it. But it's not the

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Speaker 2: subject we're discussing in two ninety four. That is euthanasia.

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Speaker 2: The first reason I'll give you in a moment. This

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Speaker 2: is the second reason, and I think you'll understand why.

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Speaker 2: Four three avenues. Three avenues for using AI in the

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Speaker 2: euthanasia and physician assisted suicide practice. For those who think

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Speaker 2: that for those who think that AI is taking over

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Speaker 2: the world. Were this one's for you? I guess it

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Speaker 2: has four parts to it. AI in assessing euthanasia requests

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Speaker 2: Number two, AI in the execution of euthanasia. You think

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Speaker 2: they chose that word accidentally, AI in the retrospective reviews

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Speaker 2: of euthanasia case rips, and then concluding remarks. So have

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Speaker 2: me delivered the concluding remarks? First? AI could be used

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Speaker 2: in several avenues in the euthanasia and assisted suicide practice

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Speaker 2: in the Netherlands. In all pathways, the integration of AI

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Speaker 2: presents a landscape fraught with legal, ethical, and medical implications.

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Speaker 2: While AI offers promising avenues for enhancing objectivity and efficiency,

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Speaker 2: it is imperative to navigate these waters with caution, ensuring

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Speaker 2: that the protection of the core principle of human dignity

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Speaker 2: is not overshadowed by technological advancements. The debate must continue

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Speaker 2: to evolve, considering not only the legal possibilities to deploy

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Speaker 2: AI under current regulatory frameworks, but also the wider ethical

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Speaker 2: and societal consequences of using AI in the controversial domain

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Speaker 2: of euthanasia and physician assisted suicide. Well, I'm glad they

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Speaker 2: got to that final sentence before they left it alone.

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Speaker 2: I received an email from Tim Wilson. Everybody knows who

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Speaker 2: Tim Wilson is. He's been in media in this country

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Speaker 2: and beyond for most of his life. He is now

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Speaker 2: the head of Maxim Institute. The discussion paper that he

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Speaker 2: sent me was interrogating choice, euthanasia and the illusion of autonomy.

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Speaker 2: Now I'm big on autonomy, very important, so autonomy played

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Speaker 2: a part. But I waited because I didn't really want

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Speaker 2: to talk about it. I waited, I think four days

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Speaker 2: before I thought i'd better respond to him one way

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Speaker 2: or another, and we had a discussion. And I won't

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Speaker 2: say that he twisted me around to accept, because I

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Speaker 2: think I was on that journey anyway. But here's how

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Speaker 2: he approached it in the first place. I'm writing because

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Speaker 2: I think you might be interested in discussing our euthanasia

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Speaker 2: research with our research manager and the author of the piece,

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Speaker 2: Mary and Spur. The metaphor for proponents of euthanasia is choice.

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Speaker 2: I'm into that too. People need to have the choice. However,

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Speaker 2: this is premised on the inaccurate assumption that everyone has

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Speaker 2: the same choice. So I had a word with Mary

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Speaker 2: Anne and decided that we would do it, and I

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Speaker 2: have no regrets for doing so, and I trust that

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Speaker 2: you'll appreciate what you're about to hear. But there was

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Speaker 2: one other thing that also had a bit of input.

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Speaker 2: It's had some publicity in this part of the world,

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Speaker 2: but it's the moves that they're making in Canada, which

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Speaker 2: by some accounts is falling apart at the seams in

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Speaker 2: some areas, at least in Canada where they're now pushing

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Speaker 2: to introduce euthanasia available to minors. And I think that

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Speaker 2: speaks for itself. Or did I mention that that goes

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Speaker 2: hand in hand with parental consent? Not needed now after

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Speaker 2: a short break, Marry and Spurdle. Buccolan is a natural

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Speaker 2: boost your natural protection against bacterial infections in your chest

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Speaker 2: will help your body build up to three months of

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Speaker 2: immunity against bugs which cause bacterial cold symptoms. So who

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Speaker 2: can take buccolan well, the whole family. From two years

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Speaker 2: of age and upwards. A course of Buckelan tablets offers

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Speaker 2: cost effective and safe protection from colds and chills. Protection

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Speaker 2: becomes effective a few days after you take buccolan and

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Speaker 2: lasts for up to three months following the three day course.

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Speaker 2: Buccolan can be taken throughout the cold season, over winter,

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Speaker 2: or all year round. And remember Buckelan is not intended

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Speaker 2: as an alternative to influenza vaccination, but may be used

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Speaker 2: along with the flu vaccination for added protection. And keep

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Speaker 2: in mind that millions of doses have been taken by

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Speaker 2: Kiwi's for over fifty years. Only available from your pharmacist.

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Speaker 2: Always read the label and users directed, and see your

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Speaker 2: doctor if systems persist. Farmer Broker Aucklund Layton Smith very unspurtled,

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Speaker 2: Welcome to the Lagnsmith podcast. Good to have you here.

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Speaker 3: Oh thanks for having me, Laighton.

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Speaker 2: Albeit that the subject is not one that is a

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Speaker 2: welcome subject. You are the author of the Maxim research paper.

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Speaker 4: Yeah, it's a discussion paper from the Maxim Institute.

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Speaker 2: What made you do it?

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Speaker 4: The catalyst was the Ministry of Health reviewed the end

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Speaker 4: of Life Choice Acts implementation and release that report in November.

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Speaker 4: It was that and also for a few weeks before that,

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Speaker 4: two of the original three members of the review committee

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Speaker 4: that review the death reports from euthanasia publicly said that

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Speaker 4: things weren't working well.

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Speaker 3: The report said things were working well.

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Speaker 4: So I've looked into it and kind of evaluated what

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Speaker 4: the quality of choice we now have thanks to the

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Speaker 4: end of Life Choice Act.

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Speaker 2: That was three of how many?

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Speaker 4: Oh?

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Speaker 3: There were no?

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Speaker 4: Two of three? So there were three on the committee.

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Speaker 4: There are three, And for several months the committee was

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Speaker 4: not functioning because one resigned and the other didn't have

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Speaker 4: her contract renewed. They had a story published in the Herald,

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Speaker 4: I think last October saying that if there was wrongdoing,

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Speaker 4: they wouldn't know it because the reporting was so shoddy.

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Speaker 2: I could only say, how at this point, if I

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Speaker 2: knew nothing else, if that's the way they operated, how

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Speaker 2: on earth could we have any face in the outcome?

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Speaker 4: Yes, And that is one of the points that I'm

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Speaker 4: making in this paper is how should things be not

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Speaker 4: just for those who want to access euthanasia, but for

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Speaker 4: those who were accessing end of life healthcare? Because talking

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Speaker 4: about having good choices and our choices aren't good for

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Speaker 4: a number of reasons. And that's what I'm going into

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Speaker 4: the safety aspect, though, I think is concerning because that

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Speaker 4: means we made very well, and there are signs pointing

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Speaker 4: to the fact that it probably has already happened. People

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Speaker 4: who are not willingly choosing euthanasia, who are being euthanized.

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Speaker 2: In New Zealand. In New Zealand, yeah, if we look

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Speaker 2: abroad at this early stage of the discussion, if we

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Speaker 2: look abroad, Canada, of course is in the news of

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Speaker 2: recent times. Switzerland I think has used in Asia and Holland.

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Speaker 4: Yes, they've had it longer than most.

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Speaker 2: So looking at the success or otherwise of euthanasia in

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Speaker 2: those countries, what do we come up with.

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Speaker 4: There are so many different ways to evaluate what successes.

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Speaker 4: I mean, the Ministry of Health review of how it's

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Speaker 4: working here was that it's largely operating well. I mean

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Speaker 4: in the sense that people who are applying for euthanasia

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Speaker 4: are now dead.

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Speaker 3: That's correct.

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Speaker 4: It's not correct in the sense that what we have

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Speaker 4: on paper in the legislation is actually being followed the

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Speaker 4: way it's intended. If you look overseas, some countries have

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Speaker 4: much more liberal laws. They will allow miners to access it,

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Speaker 4: for example, they'll allow people to access it for mental

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Speaker 4: health conditions. But we're only talking about a handful of countries.

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Speaker 4: New Zealand is one of only about ten countries that

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Speaker 4: allows both the physician to prescribe a lethal drug to

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Speaker 4: you and to give it to you. A lot of places,

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Speaker 4: like states in the US that have legalized it, and

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Speaker 4: the Canadian are the Australian states that have legalized it.

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Speaker 4: They've only legalized prescribing a lethal drug. They have not

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Speaker 4: actually legalized one person administering a lethal dose to another person.

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Speaker 4: So New Zealand's and quite a small pool of countries

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Speaker 4: that have legalized both, and more than ninety percent of

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Speaker 4: those who've accessed it for a physician supplying it to them,

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Speaker 4: not just prescribing it. To answer your question, it's all

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Speaker 4: over the show. And basically there are pros and cons

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Speaker 4: to everything.

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Speaker 2: I understand that.

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Speaker 3: I mean pros.

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Speaker 4: I use that word loosely. The Ministry of Health review.

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Speaker 4: It's interesting seeing what it considers a pro and a con.

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Speaker 4: The review looks at the tension between safeguards and access,

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Speaker 4: and in every single case where it looks at a

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Speaker 4: different bit of legislation or a possible amendment, it always

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Speaker 4: goes to the side of easier and faster access and

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Speaker 4: it declines the option that would make things safer for

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Speaker 4: vulnerable people, things like waiting periods. Most countries that have

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Speaker 4: legalized euthanasia of one one type or another, they have

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Speaker 4: a standown period. In some countries like Belgium, very very

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Speaker 4: loose eligible requirements. However, they have put in their legislation

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Speaker 4: that if you apply free euthanasia, you have to be

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Speaker 4: referred to a palliative care team to find out what

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Speaker 4: your other other care options are, because it could be

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Speaker 4: that somebody needs counseling or they need better pain relief

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Speaker 4: for you know, they need someone with expertise and end

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Speaker 4: of life care. They have to be referred to a

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Speaker 4: team that specializes in that, and the legislation also writes

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Speaker 4: in the intention to provide it to everyone. In New Zealand,

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Speaker 4: and this is one of my big points, we have

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Speaker 4: very patchy palliative care access. We have roughly half the

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Speaker 4: specialists employee that we need. We could have more, but

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Speaker 4: there's not the funding set aside for them. And then

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Speaker 4: hospices they operate with about half of their expenses covered

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Speaker 4: by fundraising. It's not government funded one hundred percent, roughly

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Speaker 4: half is government funded. It doesn't cover the whole country

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Speaker 4: and it's.

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Speaker 3: Very ad hoc.

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Speaker 4: So each hospice has a contract with Health New Zealand

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Speaker 4: and they may or may not get funding next year.

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Speaker 2: Looking at the list of contents is telling you start

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Speaker 2: with an executive summary. You've got an introduction. The choice

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Speaker 2: for patients comes next. The process of dying a good death,

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Speaker 2: the problems of prognosis, access to expertise, access to palliative care,

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Speaker 2: defining palliative care, barriers an accessing paliative care, funding challenges

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Speaker 2: for hospices, lack of support influences choices which patients are

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Speaker 2: competent to choose. Then there's a list of obstacles to

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Speaker 2: free choice. But let's just stay with that long list

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Speaker 2: actually of introductory matters. The process of dying. How do

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Speaker 2: we define the process of dying?

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Speaker 3: Yeah?

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Speaker 4: And I mean what do we think death looks like?

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Speaker 4: I mean we have information from movies and TV? And

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Speaker 4: I was how old was I in my early forties

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Speaker 4: before I saw somebody dying?

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Speaker 3: Naturally?

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Speaker 4: I was with my grandma her final ten days of life,

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Speaker 4: and I didn't know what I was seeing exactly. Her

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Speaker 4: body was shutting down slowly. And I've spoken to people

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Speaker 4: recently as I've been discussing this kind of stuff who

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Speaker 4: think that they have seen a family member starved to death.

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Speaker 4: I have thirst go through horrible suffering, and now I know,

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Speaker 4: And it's actually thanks to a palliative care specialist that

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Speaker 4: Maxim brought out when this was being debated about six

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Speaker 4: years ago, named after Katherine Mannix, and I've since read

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Speaker 4: one of her books as well, with The End in Mind, excellent,

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Speaker 4: excellent resource to understand what death looks like, what it involves,

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Speaker 4: and it takes away fear understanding what the process is like.

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Speaker 4: It's as predictable as childbirth. If somebody's body is shutting down,

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Speaker 4: whether from disease or old age, there are some very

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Speaker 4: predictable stages. Being able to identify what they are, understand

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Speaker 4: what's going on, Understand that somebody who looks like they're

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Speaker 4: in distress is actually deeply unconscious. That's why they can't

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Speaker 4: control their breathing and they're swallowing. They're not suffering. That's

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Speaker 4: actually really freeing to understand that, and unless somebody tells

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Speaker 4: you that, it's very confronting and very uncomfortable watching someone die.

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Speaker 4: So I understand why there are many people who think

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Speaker 4: it would be more merciful to have a lethal injection,

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Speaker 4: then go through what they've seen someone go through.

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Speaker 3: When you've got all the information.

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Speaker 4: You realize that the vast majority of the time those

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Speaker 4: deaths are not the kind of suffering that we're imagining

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Speaker 4: they are. There's somebody slipping into unconsciousness and that is

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Speaker 4: the way their body shuts down. They can't eat, they

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Speaker 4: can't drink, they can't process food anymore. And this is

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Speaker 4: this is a natural, predictable process. So just having that

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Speaker 4: information means we can make better choices.

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Speaker 2: The word termination and it keeps coming back into my mind.

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Speaker 2: What we're doing is or what we're talking about, is

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Speaker 2: the termination of a life. Yeah, so let me ask

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Speaker 2: you a sidebark question that nobody else would have had.

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Speaker 2: If I'm wrong, you tell me. Here we are talking

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Speaker 2: about the ability to call for your own death, or

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Speaker 2: be put down, or have your life terminated, however you

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Speaker 2: want to frame it. Don't even think about this. Just

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Speaker 2: give me an answer quickly. What's your approach to the

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Speaker 2: death penalty.

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Speaker 4: It's interesting, it's probably become more solidified as I've been

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Speaker 4: looking into this. One of the reasons that many many

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Speaker 4: countries now don't have the death penalty is because you

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Speaker 4: cannot be certain one hundred percent of the time that

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Speaker 4: the person who's been convicted is actually guilty, And so

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Speaker 4: there is the possibility that somebody will be killed unjustly,

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Speaker 4: And because it's a terminal punishment, there's no fixing it.

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Speaker 4: If you imprison somebody unjustly, it's not great, but there's

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Speaker 4: still alive and there still can be some restitution. If

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Speaker 4: you kill someone unjustly, there's no going back. And I

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Speaker 4: think that's an excellent reason to not have the death penalty.

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Speaker 3: And I think it applies.

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Speaker 4: Here as well, because mistakes are made with prognosis and

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Speaker 4: diagnosis all the time.

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Speaker 3: It's actually incredibly common.

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Speaker 2: So that's a legal matter, a judicial matter. And I

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Speaker 2: have never been able to see why you can't introduce

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Speaker 2: an upper level of murder where there is no doubt

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Speaker 2: at all.

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Speaker 4: Like the Christ Stretch shooter, perhaps, where you like, you've

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Speaker 4: got witnesses, you've got something where there's absolutely no shadow

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Speaker 4: of a doubt. I could see an argument for that,

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Speaker 4: and I could be persuaded either way. I don't have

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Speaker 4: a strong opinion about whether or not people like that

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Speaker 4: should suffer the death penalty or be in prison for life.

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Speaker 2: Well, it's at a cost to the rest of us. Yes,

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Speaker 2: the fact that some of my tax money and yours

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Speaker 2: is going to sustaining the life of this person is

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Speaker 2: an offense or it's offensive to me.

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Speaker 4: And what we're talking about is an exception.

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Speaker 2: And there are exceptions.

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Speaker 4: Yeah, but you don't write legislation for exceptions. You might

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Speaker 4: write things in there that apply to exceptions, but legislation

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Speaker 4: that applies to every single individual shouldn't be geared for

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Speaker 4: the outliers to take them into account, but it shouldn't

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Speaker 4: be written specifically for them.

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Speaker 2: Let me just tell you that over the years of

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Speaker 2: talkback radio, it's been decades of it, when the subject

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Speaker 2: of either euse in asia or abortion came up, we

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Speaker 2: got to a point where I wouldn't entertain discussing it

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Speaker 2: unless there was some fresh new input into why it

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Speaker 2: should be discussed. Just because somebody wanted to raise it

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Speaker 2: wasn't good enough because it brought out the worst in

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Speaker 2: a lot of people, and to be blunt, it ended

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Speaker 2: up getting very boring and tedious because it's the same old,

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Speaker 2: same old. So it was something that got a bit

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Speaker 2: of abuse from on the other occasion, because you know,

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Speaker 2: people said things they wanted to say, but there was

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Speaker 2: no point in pursuing it because there was nothing new,

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Speaker 2: nothing fresh. What would you say was the most contributive

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Speaker 2: matter that has arisen recently that covers what we're discussing.

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Speaker 3: I think that.

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Speaker 4: The combination of the ministry reviewing the implementation and its

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Speaker 4: take on it, combined with the two former members of

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Speaker 4: the review committee saying that the safeguards are not safe,

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Speaker 4: I think it's the perfect time to revisit this and say,

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Speaker 4: is this the legislation that we voted for? And since

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Speaker 4: the legislation is called the End of Life Choice Act,

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Speaker 4: let's evaluate how good the choices are. Because when I

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Speaker 4: looked at that, I thought it's choice and name only

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Speaker 4: when I looked into how well palliative care is provided,

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Speaker 4: that's not a choice that probably half of Kiwis have

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Speaker 4: decent access to. So there would be being given the

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Speaker 4: choice between death without adequate support or euthanasia. You can

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Speaker 4: get euthanasia anywhere in the country, so in that sense,

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Speaker 4: it's a universally offered choice. But for people who don't

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Speaker 4: have other good end of life choice offered to them,

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Speaker 4: it's a bit of a game of would you rather

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Speaker 4: where none none of the options are actually what they

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Speaker 4: would most like. Palliative care offers the things that people

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Speaker 4: would most like. Universally, ninety percent of us are probably

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Speaker 4: going to reach a time when we will benefit from

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Speaker 4: valiative care. And because palliative care supports family members as well,

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Speaker 4: probably close to one hundred percent of us will benefit

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Speaker 4: from it because we will be supporting people who are

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Speaker 4: accessing it. So the fact that it's not universally funded,

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Speaker 4: I think that's a question. See what they're framing around

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Speaker 4: what I've written. It doesn't matter what somebody's assumption is

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Speaker 4: about whether or not euthanasias should be legal. I don't

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Speaker 4: address that at all in this. There've been discussions about that.

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Speaker 4: We've got the law. Now I'm addressing things that I

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Speaker 4: think we can all agree on. We all think that

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Speaker 4: good choices are good for us. We all think that

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Speaker 4: people should have good care at the end of life.

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Speaker 4: So I'm taking that as the assumption, and then going,

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Speaker 4: is what we've got good enough? Or is the Ministry

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Speaker 4: of Health giving itself a free pass on substandard choices?

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Speaker 4: That is it? Yes, Yeah, universally funpalliative care, which is

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Speaker 4: a cheaper option. And then hospices are on a contract,

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Speaker 4: you know, by contract basis, where they may or may

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Speaker 4: not get approximately half of the funding they need. There's

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Speaker 4: really a low level of commitment to making sure that

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Speaker 4: people can access the best possible death.

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Speaker 2: Something ironic about talking about the best possible death.

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Speaker 3: I know.

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Speaker 2: From your executive summary. New Zealanders who meet certain criteria

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Speaker 2: have been able to end their lives since the End

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Speaker 2: of Life Choice Act twenty nineteen came into effect on

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Speaker 2: November of twenty twenty one, three years on. A Ministry

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Speaker 2: of Health review required by law, highlighted gaps in the legislation,

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Speaker 2: but also advocated for loosening some restrictions. They're the first

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Speaker 2: dangerous words that I came across loosening some restrictions. The

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Speaker 2: rationale for its recommendations is that making one choice easier

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Speaker 2: for patients to access will improve the overall quality of

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Speaker 2: end of life care. However, free choice is largely dependent

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Speaker 2: on the quality of options and information available. Clearing the

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Speaker 2: path to a single option does not automatically improve the

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Speaker 2: quality of people's choices. Now, there's a couple of questions

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Speaker 2: that come out of that, but hitting the next paragraph,

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Speaker 2: New Zealanders do not have equal access to end of

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Speaker 2: life life care. And then you talk about make the

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Speaker 2: comparison between euthanasia and palliative care, et cetera. Which has

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Speaker 2: the most money spent.

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Speaker 4: On it, paliati cure or euthanasia, Well, it would be

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Speaker 4: palliaship care by far, because we're having about one person

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Speaker 4: a day euthanized roughly palliative care. About a third of

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Speaker 4: people who die natural deaths would access hospice.

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Speaker 3: Care in a given year.

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Speaker 4: So far, far more people are accessing palliative care. Like

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Speaker 4: I said, ninety percent of us are going to need

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Speaker 4: it someday. Whereas even if we got to the higher

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Speaker 4: end of what international is in Norman countries that have

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Speaker 4: had euthanasia for a long time, you might get three

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Speaker 4: or four percent of the population, well, three or four

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Speaker 4: percent of deaths that year being by euthanasia.

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Speaker 2: The other thing I noticed about the difference between the

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Speaker 2: two is that you can get you you can have

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Speaker 2: euthanasia any where in the country. Pelleative care is not

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Speaker 2: necessarily so available. Is it likely that the bureaucracy is

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Speaker 2: looking at the figures and suggesting that loosening up on

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Speaker 2: the restrictions or limitations of euthanasia. Making it easier to

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Speaker 2: get is an effective way of working within the limits

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Speaker 2: of their finances.

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Speaker 4: I mean, if you're looking at it from a bureaucratic

402
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Speaker 4: point of view, the answer is obvious, isn't it.

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Speaker 2: I thought i'd ask anyway.

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Speaker 4: Yeah, I mean I can't read people's minds. I can

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Speaker 4: tell you what they actually said in the report, and

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Speaker 4: that'll give us a glimpse into their minds, because if

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Speaker 4: it's about choice, you would expect them to say, well,

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Speaker 4: you know, obviously there's budget priorities. Everybody can't have everything,

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Speaker 4: but to the best of our ability, you can choose

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Speaker 4: what you want. However, the tone of the review is

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Speaker 4: very much favoring some choices in not others, and that's

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Speaker 4: even at the expense of people's own opinions and beliefs,

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Speaker 4: which do not impact healthcare at large.

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Speaker 3: You know, you can choose what you like.

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Speaker 4: They're actively opposed to people who would not actively choose euthanasia.

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Speaker 4: So I write in the report that the Ministry of

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Speaker 4: Health does not acknowledged that there are valid reasons to

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Speaker 4: opt out of participating in euthanasia, and that can be

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Speaker 4: either as a physician or you know, somebody who's preaching

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Speaker 4: the end of life. It identifies that and I'm quoting

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Speaker 4: the report here, some communities TOI Kunga customary values are

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Speaker 4: not aligned with or supportive of assisted dying, and that

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Speaker 4: some held the view that the waidrua spirit belongs to

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Speaker 4: God and the body should be allowed to perish naturally

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Speaker 4: end quote. And then I'm saying this belief, shared not

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Speaker 4: just by many Mari but also by many faith communities,

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Speaker 4: is one that the Ministry considers misguided regarding MARI final

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Speaker 4: who consider euthanasia to be the same as suicide.

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Speaker 3: They write, and this is from the report.

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Speaker 4: This points to a lack of awareness and acceptability of

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Speaker 4: assisted dying within MARI communities and an urgent need for

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Speaker 4: assisted dying to become familiar, understood, and accepted.

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Speaker 3: End quote.

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Speaker 4: So the Ministry it's not just wanting to offer this,

435
00:26:31,573 --> 00:26:34,973
Speaker 4: it wants to normalize this as a practice for people who,

436
00:26:35,733 --> 00:26:39,173
Speaker 4: for various reasons cultural and spiritual, see it is the

437
00:26:39,213 --> 00:26:42,853
Speaker 4: same as suicide. And because you know, we're not supporters

438
00:26:42,853 --> 00:26:46,933
Speaker 4: of suicide as a general rule, people have those reasons

439
00:26:46,973 --> 00:26:49,133
Speaker 4: for thinking, No, I don't want to participate in it,

440
00:26:49,173 --> 00:26:52,533
Speaker 4: and I don't want to access it. The ministry doesn't

441
00:26:52,533 --> 00:26:53,373
Speaker 4: think that's good enough.

442
00:26:54,293 --> 00:26:56,973
Speaker 2: Well, this is what I mean about the bureaucracy. Yeah,

443
00:26:57,173 --> 00:26:59,613
Speaker 2: they are less concerned with the with the well being

444
00:26:59,693 --> 00:27:03,213
Speaker 2: of the patients than they are about, shall we say,

445
00:27:03,573 --> 00:27:07,733
Speaker 2: the inconvenience of keeping them alive. And having just said that,

446
00:27:07,853 --> 00:27:12,013
Speaker 2: to me, it's almost it's almost obscene. But in conjunction

447
00:27:12,093 --> 00:27:14,853
Speaker 2: with them, we've got the situation where doctors must wait

448
00:27:15,093 --> 00:27:19,853
Speaker 2: for patients to request Useinasia before discussing it with them. However,

449
00:27:20,973 --> 00:27:24,333
Speaker 2: the Ministry of Health recommends that doctors be allowed, even

450
00:27:24,453 --> 00:27:28,173
Speaker 2: in courage to offer it to eligible patients. This is

451
00:27:28,213 --> 00:27:34,493
Speaker 2: in total conflict with the with the doctors.

452
00:27:34,813 --> 00:27:38,253
Speaker 4: Well, yeah, many doctors feel that way now that they

453
00:27:38,293 --> 00:27:41,973
Speaker 4: are not actually I think that they're not actually suggesting

454
00:27:42,013 --> 00:27:45,213
Speaker 4: the legislation be changed so that doctors have to suggest it,

455
00:27:46,093 --> 00:27:49,733
Speaker 4: but in their recommendation that the lobby changed so that

456
00:27:49,813 --> 00:27:52,133
Speaker 4: they're allowed to suggest it. They go on to say

457
00:27:52,173 --> 00:27:56,853
Speaker 4: that because this is a consumer rights issue, consumers should.

458
00:27:56,693 --> 00:27:57,693
Speaker 3: Know all their options.

459
00:27:58,173 --> 00:28:03,853
Speaker 4: Now, I've read medical journals from from overseas were doctors

460
00:28:03,893 --> 00:28:06,773
Speaker 4: are arguing against this and saying this is not something

461
00:28:07,333 --> 00:28:11,733
Speaker 4: in i'll the areas of care where you're supposed to

462
00:28:11,813 --> 00:28:14,973
Speaker 4: actually lay out every single option that a patient might access.

463
00:28:16,293 --> 00:28:19,973
Speaker 4: The physician has their own, in their own professional opinion,

464
00:28:20,613 --> 00:28:22,813
Speaker 4: the ability to say, these are the things that I

465
00:28:22,813 --> 00:28:25,613
Speaker 4: think you should consider. And for the many doctors who

466
00:28:25,693 --> 00:28:29,053
Speaker 4: don't think that their patient should be considering killing themselves,

467
00:28:29,453 --> 00:28:33,333
Speaker 4: it's perfectly valid to not offer it. The reason that

468
00:28:34,093 --> 00:28:37,013
Speaker 4: in the law, and this was one of the concessions

469
00:28:37,013 --> 00:28:39,213
Speaker 4: that those who are pushing this through made in order

470
00:28:39,293 --> 00:28:40,773
Speaker 4: to get it over the line. They made a few

471
00:28:40,853 --> 00:28:43,453
Speaker 4: concessions that they're now trying to roll back because they'd

472
00:28:43,533 --> 00:28:45,533
Speaker 4: like it to be more liberal. But one of the

473
00:28:45,573 --> 00:28:48,533
Speaker 4: reasons that it was put in there as a concession

474
00:28:48,613 --> 00:28:51,533
Speaker 4: to those who didn't want doctors to be able to

475
00:28:51,533 --> 00:28:56,453
Speaker 4: suggest it is that that changes the patient doctor relationship massively,

476
00:28:56,533 --> 00:28:59,973
Speaker 4: and it also changes the way that a patient approaches

477
00:29:01,573 --> 00:29:06,053
Speaker 4: the way they are dealing with, whether it's terminal or

478
00:29:06,093 --> 00:29:10,333
Speaker 4: possibly terminal, approaching their true As soon as someone says

479
00:29:10,373 --> 00:29:12,613
Speaker 4: to you, whether it's a child or your doctor, have

480
00:29:12,693 --> 00:29:18,013
Speaker 4: you thought about euthanasia? Well, from a doctor, you're hearing

481
00:29:18,093 --> 00:29:20,013
Speaker 4: you might be better off dead than facing what you're

482
00:29:20,093 --> 00:29:24,733
Speaker 4: going to face, and that really undermines the kind of hopefulness,

483
00:29:24,813 --> 00:29:28,533
Speaker 4: encourage that you need, especially given that a lot of

484
00:29:28,573 --> 00:29:30,973
Speaker 4: conditions that are scary as people face them. When you

485
00:29:31,013 --> 00:29:34,093
Speaker 4: read stuff by palliative care physicians, there are means of

486
00:29:34,133 --> 00:29:38,453
Speaker 4: making people comfortable. And actually the main reason people apply

487
00:29:38,573 --> 00:29:42,733
Speaker 4: for euthanasia by far, This is from surveys out of Canada.

488
00:29:43,333 --> 00:29:46,013
Speaker 4: It has to do with fear of losing autonomy and

489
00:29:46,133 --> 00:29:49,573
Speaker 4: being a burden. The fear of suffering physical pain is

490
00:29:49,653 --> 00:29:51,573
Speaker 4: way way down the list, and usually that can be

491
00:29:51,613 --> 00:29:58,013
Speaker 4: mitigated just fine. It is people's psychological fears that usually

492
00:29:58,013 --> 00:30:00,613
Speaker 4: are the reason that they're applying for euthanasia. Well, if

493
00:30:00,653 --> 00:30:02,773
Speaker 4: you've got a doctor putting that fear in your mind

494
00:30:02,813 --> 00:30:05,533
Speaker 4: by saying this might be a better option for you

495
00:30:06,373 --> 00:30:10,013
Speaker 4: than dying a natural death, it changes the way you're

496
00:30:10,013 --> 00:30:12,413
Speaker 4: approaching everything. So there's a very good reason it's in

497
00:30:12,413 --> 00:30:14,333
Speaker 4: the law of the ministry. Doesn't address any of the

498
00:30:14,373 --> 00:30:17,413
Speaker 4: reasons why you might not want to have a doctor

499
00:30:17,813 --> 00:30:20,973
Speaker 4: suggesting that to a patient. They say, it's a consumer

500
00:30:21,013 --> 00:30:23,173
Speaker 4: rights issue. This is an option as good as any other's.

501
00:30:23,613 --> 00:30:24,973
Speaker 4: Doctor should be able to go for it.

502
00:30:25,093 --> 00:30:30,533
Speaker 2: Okay, I have for each one of these sub subjects,

503
00:30:30,933 --> 00:30:35,733
Speaker 2: I've got examples in my head of experience one way

504
00:30:35,813 --> 00:30:40,493
Speaker 2: or the other. For instance, I'm aware of somebody and

505
00:30:40,493 --> 00:30:42,973
Speaker 2: this is not in New Zealand, but of somebody who

506
00:30:43,493 --> 00:30:48,293
Speaker 2: in their late nineties was desperate to die. It was

507
00:30:48,333 --> 00:30:52,853
Speaker 2: against the law, Austrainen. It was against the law, and

508
00:30:53,453 --> 00:30:56,573
Speaker 2: in the end, at the will, based on the will

509
00:30:56,693 --> 00:31:02,013
Speaker 2: of the patient and immediate family, the doctor put an

510
00:31:02,093 --> 00:31:04,733
Speaker 2: end to his life. And that's the argument that is

511
00:31:04,813 --> 00:31:08,813
Speaker 2: used quite frequently, probably the most frequently used argus in

512
00:31:08,893 --> 00:31:12,813
Speaker 2: favor of euthanasia. When you get to a point by

513
00:31:12,813 --> 00:31:18,693
Speaker 2: the way, his mind was working perfectly, Yeah, well close

514
00:31:18,813 --> 00:31:24,373
Speaker 2: enough to perfectly, and he begged for it and he

515
00:31:24,933 --> 00:31:27,733
Speaker 2: got it. Now, that did cause some ruction in the

516
00:31:27,733 --> 00:31:30,693
Speaker 2: family because not everybody was in attendance of that particular time,

517
00:31:30,733 --> 00:31:36,173
Speaker 2: but that's another matter. Yeah, is that a satisfactory argument

518
00:31:36,293 --> 00:31:38,013
Speaker 2: for changing for loosening up?

519
00:31:39,053 --> 00:31:41,533
Speaker 4: Loosening up with you here, because in that instance, I

520
00:31:41,533 --> 00:31:44,093
Speaker 4: think if euthanasia had been legal, he would have known

521
00:31:44,133 --> 00:31:46,893
Speaker 4: about it and the doctor wouldn't have raised it with him.

522
00:31:47,613 --> 00:31:50,493
Speaker 4: If a doctor said you have less than six months

523
00:31:50,573 --> 00:31:52,973
Speaker 4: to live under oral ezz then yes he could have

524
00:31:53,013 --> 00:31:57,333
Speaker 4: accessed it. Might not have changed things with the family stories.

525
00:31:57,333 --> 00:32:00,253
Speaker 4: I'm hearing from people who know people who accessed euthanasia

526
00:32:01,373 --> 00:32:04,973
Speaker 4: very mixed feelings, unlike those who had family die in

527
00:32:06,293 --> 00:32:10,293
Speaker 4: hospice care, which is universally a positive, glowing report of

528
00:32:10,333 --> 00:32:13,733
Speaker 4: the experience. So there are some things that are always

529
00:32:13,773 --> 00:32:16,933
Speaker 4: going to be issues. There are some things once it's

530
00:32:16,973 --> 00:32:21,333
Speaker 4: made legal, without instance, wouldn't be an issue because he'd

531
00:32:21,373 --> 00:32:27,333
Speaker 4: be able to apply and probably be eligible. The loosening up.

532
00:32:28,013 --> 00:32:30,613
Speaker 4: And this is why I mentioned the exceptions and why

533
00:32:30,813 --> 00:32:37,173
Speaker 4: legislation shouldn't be targeted at exceptions. The safeguards all mean

534
00:32:37,213 --> 00:32:41,413
Speaker 4: that some people who want to access it won't be

535
00:32:41,453 --> 00:32:44,213
Speaker 4: able to because of a safeguard. But the safeguards are

536
00:32:44,213 --> 00:32:48,133
Speaker 4: there because once you legalize one person killing another, it

537
00:32:48,213 --> 00:32:51,813
Speaker 4: opens the door for people who don't have people's best

538
00:32:51,813 --> 00:32:55,013
Speaker 4: interests to do what they shouldn't do. So and also

539
00:32:55,333 --> 00:32:57,933
Speaker 4: this is another thing I go into the paper. Some

540
00:32:57,973 --> 00:33:00,333
Speaker 4: people feel like they want to die, and then when

541
00:33:00,333 --> 00:33:02,733
Speaker 4: they get the care that they need, they change their mind.

542
00:33:03,133 --> 00:33:06,373
Speaker 4: And there's no knowing. You know which patient is going

543
00:33:06,413 --> 00:33:09,333
Speaker 4: to be which, but you put it into the law

544
00:33:09,453 --> 00:33:13,173
Speaker 4: with the understanding that we want to keep vulnerable people safe,

545
00:33:13,933 --> 00:33:17,613
Speaker 4: even if it means that some people who are suffering

546
00:33:17,613 --> 00:33:20,373
Speaker 4: and really want to die, either have to wait longer

547
00:33:20,493 --> 00:33:23,613
Speaker 4: or can't access it because they're not eligible. It's a

548
00:33:23,653 --> 00:33:28,453
Speaker 4: trade off. The reason that I think the trade off

549
00:33:28,493 --> 00:33:31,653
Speaker 4: should be in favor of vulnerable people who might be

550
00:33:31,693 --> 00:33:37,773
Speaker 4: taken advantage of is because that is actually somebody being

551
00:33:38,093 --> 00:33:42,333
Speaker 4: killed against their will. Whereas somebody who ends up dying naturally.

552
00:33:42,973 --> 00:33:45,653
Speaker 4: It's not a great thing if they have to suffer,

553
00:33:45,933 --> 00:33:49,933
Speaker 4: but we're not making them suffer. That's just the result

554
00:33:50,013 --> 00:33:53,533
Speaker 4: of illness and age and laws and not being able

555
00:33:53,573 --> 00:33:56,453
Speaker 4: to give us everything we want all the time. So

556
00:33:56,493 --> 00:34:01,293
Speaker 4: there's no good outcome for everybody all the time. But

557
00:34:01,453 --> 00:34:05,053
Speaker 4: the government's job is to protect life and protect the vulnerable,

558
00:34:06,093 --> 00:34:08,653
Speaker 4: not to give us everything we want. So by partectecting

559
00:34:08,693 --> 00:34:11,813
Speaker 4: the vulnerable and protecting life, there have to be if

560
00:34:11,813 --> 00:34:14,333
Speaker 4: you're going to have euthanasia, there have to be safeguards.

561
00:34:14,493 --> 00:34:18,413
Speaker 4: At the moment, we have no stand down period overseas.

562
00:34:18,453 --> 00:34:19,893
Speaker 3: A lot of places have a couple of.

563
00:34:19,893 --> 00:34:24,493
Speaker 2: Weeks stand down period, a delay, yeah.

564
00:34:24,293 --> 00:34:26,973
Speaker 4: Cold on period, so you apply and then before it

565
00:34:26,973 --> 00:34:31,293
Speaker 4: can progress, generally like maybe two weeks. It's not huge,

566
00:34:31,293 --> 00:34:33,573
Speaker 4: but it's long enough that for instance, you could be

567
00:34:33,613 --> 00:34:36,533
Speaker 4: referred to a palliative care team, or you could have

568
00:34:36,653 --> 00:34:40,493
Speaker 4: your GP refer you to somebody who's got expertise in

569
00:34:40,573 --> 00:34:44,493
Speaker 4: pain really so a thing or counseling. Like I said,

570
00:34:44,653 --> 00:34:47,773
Speaker 4: most of the applications come from people who are afraid

571
00:34:48,013 --> 00:34:48,893
Speaker 4: of future things.

572
00:34:48,933 --> 00:34:50,053
Speaker 3: They're not currently suffering.

573
00:34:50,053 --> 00:34:53,853
Speaker 4: They're afraid that they're going to lose abilities, be a burden,

574
00:34:54,173 --> 00:34:59,813
Speaker 4: things that with the right care and conversations, their minds

575
00:34:59,853 --> 00:35:02,173
Speaker 4: can actually be eased. They don't need to die, they

576
00:35:02,413 --> 00:35:06,013
Speaker 4: just need to have a better outlook on things and

577
00:35:06,133 --> 00:35:12,133
Speaker 4: possibly often support. So that's why the quarter period exists. Overseas,

578
00:35:12,173 --> 00:35:15,333
Speaker 4: we have none. The fastest time from application to death

579
00:35:15,533 --> 00:35:18,853
Speaker 4: so far in New Zealand is two days. I don't

580
00:35:18,893 --> 00:35:21,773
Speaker 4: know how you can check for coercion and do everything

581
00:35:21,813 --> 00:35:24,653
Speaker 4: else that the legislation requires in two days, but apparently

582
00:35:24,733 --> 00:35:27,333
Speaker 4: it's been done. I don't know how many times because

583
00:35:27,373 --> 00:35:30,733
Speaker 4: the Ministry hasn't released that information, but an OIA that

584
00:35:30,853 --> 00:35:32,773
Speaker 4: was put in showed that even though the average is

585
00:35:32,813 --> 00:35:36,373
Speaker 4: about three weeks from application to death, that's being skewed

586
00:35:36,413 --> 00:35:39,333
Speaker 4: by outliers. The most common timeframe is two weeks. The

587
00:35:39,373 --> 00:35:40,973
Speaker 4: shortest is two days.

588
00:35:41,453 --> 00:35:44,653
Speaker 2: Let me make a comparison. It's the extensions that follow

589
00:35:44,813 --> 00:35:47,493
Speaker 2: change that have been aware of for wealth for a

590
00:35:47,493 --> 00:35:51,853
Speaker 2: long time. And so most people probably did you make changes,

591
00:35:52,053 --> 00:35:54,933
Speaker 2: you loosen up. That's only the step, that's only one

592
00:35:54,973 --> 00:35:58,533
Speaker 2: step to the next step. Yeah, So the next step

593
00:35:58,573 --> 00:36:03,453
Speaker 2: after taken abortion as an example, and the ease with

594
00:36:03,493 --> 00:36:06,333
Speaker 2: which you can have that now and in some parts

595
00:36:06,373 --> 00:36:08,933
Speaker 2: of the world, And dare I say it, but it's true,

596
00:36:09,013 --> 00:36:11,613
Speaker 2: right up to the right up to the birth canal moment,

597
00:36:12,293 --> 00:36:18,493
Speaker 2: you can exterminate that child. So those extensions which are

598
00:36:18,533 --> 00:36:21,933
Speaker 2: really uncontrollable would extend to this. So you have a

599
00:36:22,013 --> 00:36:25,213
Speaker 2: patient who's or you have a person on their DESKBD

600
00:36:25,773 --> 00:36:28,853
Speaker 2: who doesn't really want to die but is really in

601
00:36:28,853 --> 00:36:31,533
Speaker 2: the way, whichever way it might be, but in the

602
00:36:31,573 --> 00:36:35,893
Speaker 2: way putting them down in their sleep would be easy.

603
00:36:36,053 --> 00:36:38,373
Speaker 2: And once you and once you've extended it to the

604
00:36:38,413 --> 00:36:42,013
Speaker 2: point that we're talking about now, with the changes that

605
00:36:42,053 --> 00:36:45,093
Speaker 2: are suggested, it's only a very short step from there

606
00:36:45,133 --> 00:36:48,613
Speaker 2: to for anybody's conscience, even to the next stage.

607
00:36:48,853 --> 00:36:51,813
Speaker 3: Right or wrong, it's yes.

608
00:36:52,573 --> 00:36:55,813
Speaker 4: I mean, there's an argument about the slippery slope and

609
00:36:55,893 --> 00:36:57,653
Speaker 4: is there one and is there not? And I think

610
00:36:57,813 --> 00:37:02,133
Speaker 4: Oregon's pretty much held the line with this legislation and

611
00:37:02,213 --> 00:37:05,973
Speaker 4: other places. Most of the places haven't here, we already

612
00:37:06,053 --> 00:37:10,253
Speaker 4: have a member's bill in the wings that would remove

613
00:37:10,293 --> 00:37:12,773
Speaker 4: the six month prognosis, so that opens it up to

614
00:37:12,773 --> 00:37:15,453
Speaker 4: people who are not I mean in a sense, we're

615
00:37:15,453 --> 00:37:17,573
Speaker 4: all criminal. So it's a bit of a fuzzy line

616
00:37:17,613 --> 00:37:20,213
Speaker 4: with a triminal diagnosis, but you wouldn't have to be

617
00:37:20,253 --> 00:37:22,533
Speaker 4: given six months to live now, even with six months.

618
00:37:22,533 --> 00:37:24,173
Speaker 4: I've got a friend who was given six months to

619
00:37:24,173 --> 00:37:26,293
Speaker 4: live in two thousand and six and he's still walking

620
00:37:26,333 --> 00:37:27,893
Speaker 4: around with lung cancer.

621
00:37:27,933 --> 00:37:30,573
Speaker 3: But it's in check. So it's always going to be

622
00:37:30,613 --> 00:37:31,173
Speaker 3: a little bit.

623
00:37:31,093 --> 00:37:35,213
Speaker 4: Fuzzy, even though on paper it looks very defined, and

624
00:37:35,253 --> 00:37:37,413
Speaker 4: once you do, yeah, open it up to oh, they

625
00:37:37,533 --> 00:37:41,453
Speaker 4: probably want to die in Belgium. And these are old numbers,

626
00:37:41,453 --> 00:37:44,613
Speaker 4: so it's it's probably worse than this.

627
00:37:44,813 --> 00:37:45,013
Speaker 1: Now.

628
00:37:45,173 --> 00:37:49,013
Speaker 4: Two thousand and seven, one point eight percent of old

629
00:37:49,133 --> 00:37:54,933
Speaker 4: deaths were euthanasia without explicit consent and two percent were

630
00:37:55,013 --> 00:37:58,693
Speaker 4: with consent. Now that tells you that the culture has

631
00:37:58,733 --> 00:38:02,933
Speaker 4: accepted it to the point that if somebody expressed a

632
00:38:02,933 --> 00:38:07,373
Speaker 4: wish at some point, even when they're not capable of

633
00:38:07,373 --> 00:38:10,413
Speaker 4: assenting and saying, yeah, this is the time I want

634
00:38:10,453 --> 00:38:15,493
Speaker 4: to go. It's been normalized that that happens. The efficiency

635
00:38:15,613 --> 00:38:21,893
Speaker 4: of it has been reframed as compassionate, and that, I

636
00:38:21,933 --> 00:38:26,493
Speaker 4: would argue, goes against our valuing of people's choice because

637
00:38:26,493 --> 00:38:29,173
Speaker 4: they're not making that choice. Somebody else is making it

638
00:38:29,213 --> 00:38:32,293
Speaker 4: for them. And I think that getting into that territory

639
00:38:32,373 --> 00:38:36,373
Speaker 4: opens up a whole lot of risk that's not worth it.

640
00:38:36,493 --> 00:38:39,933
Speaker 2: Where is it now? Legally a person on their deathbed

641
00:38:40,133 --> 00:38:42,293
Speaker 2: who is not going to die anytime soon because so

642
00:38:42,453 --> 00:38:47,653
Speaker 2: because of the nature of their suffering or their illness,

643
00:38:47,893 --> 00:38:50,853
Speaker 2: a person on their deathbed doesn't want to die, but

644
00:38:50,893 --> 00:38:55,853
Speaker 2: there is pressure on medical services for that life to

645
00:38:55,893 --> 00:38:56,573
Speaker 2: be terminated.

646
00:38:56,933 --> 00:38:57,653
Speaker 3: Do you mean here?

647
00:38:57,933 --> 00:39:01,933
Speaker 4: Yeah, yeah, No, somebody has to request it. So anybody

648
00:39:01,973 --> 00:39:06,773
Speaker 4: who hasn't requested it and had two doctors say yes,

649
00:39:06,973 --> 00:39:09,613
Speaker 4: you probably they have less than six months to live,

650
00:39:09,653 --> 00:39:12,693
Speaker 4: you have a terminal condition, you have unbearable suffering, and

651
00:39:12,733 --> 00:39:16,733
Speaker 4: the unbearable suffering. If somebody says they're suffering unbearably, then

652
00:39:16,893 --> 00:39:20,853
Speaker 4: that's what it is. But if two doctors sign off

653
00:39:20,853 --> 00:39:24,893
Speaker 4: on that and say they're mentally competent, then they're eligible.

654
00:39:24,973 --> 00:39:28,093
Speaker 4: Now you've got people who decline slowly. They don't have

655
00:39:28,133 --> 00:39:30,573
Speaker 4: a terminal illness. There's no reason to think they won't

656
00:39:30,613 --> 00:39:33,013
Speaker 4: be around still in six or twelve months, they won't

657
00:39:33,053 --> 00:39:36,693
Speaker 4: be eligible and so their suffering will have to be managed,

658
00:39:37,053 --> 00:39:40,333
Speaker 4: you know, palliative care with pain relief and symptom relief.

659
00:39:40,773 --> 00:39:44,173
Speaker 2: That's the situation at the moment, two doctors signing off. Yes,

660
00:39:44,213 --> 00:39:46,893
Speaker 2: they keep slipping my mind. The obvious to me is

661
00:39:47,093 --> 00:39:49,973
Speaker 2: you loosen up a bit, and that gets loosened up

662
00:39:50,013 --> 00:39:52,573
Speaker 2: a bit, so it's only one doctor who might need

663
00:39:52,613 --> 00:39:54,693
Speaker 2: to and let me, let me extend it this way.

664
00:39:55,173 --> 00:39:56,973
Speaker 2: At the moment, you can be you can you can

665
00:39:57,093 --> 00:40:01,293
Speaker 2: put a pillow over someone's head and suffocate them and

666
00:40:01,333 --> 00:40:04,773
Speaker 2: you'll be held up for murder as the value of

667
00:40:04,893 --> 00:40:09,213
Speaker 2: life lessons as we move into this new era, then

668
00:40:09,333 --> 00:40:12,173
Speaker 2: how can you argue that somebody who says that their

669
00:40:12,653 --> 00:40:16,413
Speaker 2: parents wanted out and I just assisted them and then

670
00:40:16,453 --> 00:40:18,533
Speaker 2: you discover a course of the's ten minion dollars waiting

671
00:40:18,533 --> 00:40:20,773
Speaker 2: for them.

672
00:40:20,533 --> 00:40:23,493
Speaker 4: At the moment, there'd be in big trouble if we

673
00:40:23,613 --> 00:40:26,093
Speaker 4: get to the point that Belgium is at and that

674
00:40:26,133 --> 00:40:30,173
Speaker 4: person has done an advanced directive where at this point

675
00:40:30,213 --> 00:40:32,933
Speaker 4: in time I don't want to live anymore, then it

676
00:40:32,933 --> 00:40:38,853
Speaker 4: would be no problem for them legally, well, not with

677
00:40:38,933 --> 00:40:42,533
Speaker 4: a pillow, but if a doctor was giving it the

678
00:40:42,613 --> 00:40:46,893
Speaker 4: legitimacy it needed. Then in Belgium that kind of scenario,

679
00:40:47,173 --> 00:40:51,093
Speaker 4: if the person has expressed at some point presumably I

680
00:40:51,093 --> 00:40:53,453
Speaker 4: don't actually know, in Belgium, if they double check that

681
00:40:53,933 --> 00:40:58,093
Speaker 4: those without explicit consent had at some point expressed a wish,

682
00:40:58,533 --> 00:41:00,853
Speaker 4: you'd hope so. But with these things, the more you

683
00:41:00,893 --> 00:41:04,053
Speaker 4: look into them, the more you realize. Even the two doctors,

684
00:41:04,653 --> 00:41:06,933
Speaker 4: and I was going to say, the Ministry of Health

685
00:41:06,973 --> 00:41:10,413
Speaker 4: would actually like to change to the optional third referral,

686
00:41:10,533 --> 00:41:14,013
Speaker 4: which if somebody there's questions about mental competence, then they

687
00:41:14,013 --> 00:41:17,773
Speaker 4: are referred to a psychiatrists. Very few are most of

688
00:41:17,773 --> 00:41:22,573
Speaker 4: the GP or whoever signs off generally says are mentally competent.

689
00:41:23,413 --> 00:41:24,253
Speaker 3: If they get referred to.

690
00:41:24,253 --> 00:41:27,453
Speaker 4: A psychiatrists to double check that, then they have a

691
00:41:27,453 --> 00:41:30,173
Speaker 4: third referral. There's an argument that everybody should be referred

692
00:41:30,213 --> 00:41:32,773
Speaker 4: to psychiatric care if they want to end their lives,

693
00:41:32,813 --> 00:41:36,213
Speaker 4: but that obviously was not written into the law here.

694
00:41:36,533 --> 00:41:39,093
Speaker 4: The Ministry would like to change it so that optional

695
00:41:39,293 --> 00:41:43,133
Speaker 4: third referral to check competence doesn't have to be a psychiatrist,

696
00:41:43,773 --> 00:41:45,493
Speaker 4: so they like to make it a little looser, and

697
00:41:45,733 --> 00:41:48,453
Speaker 4: I think it's just a The fact of the matter

698
00:41:48,533 --> 00:41:51,853
Speaker 4: is there aren't many psychiatrists and it could delay access

699
00:41:51,893 --> 00:41:54,813
Speaker 4: and so that like this would be easier. So again

700
00:41:55,013 --> 00:41:59,213
Speaker 4: it's whatever is easier and quicker that ends up being

701
00:41:59,293 --> 00:42:01,973
Speaker 4: the norm, and not what is safer.

702
00:42:02,613 --> 00:42:06,733
Speaker 2: So we haven't actually mentioned up to this point the

703
00:42:07,213 --> 00:42:11,133
Speaker 2: shortage of both money and medical staff in New Zealand.

704
00:42:11,173 --> 00:42:15,613
Speaker 2: We're short changed on both fronts. So it stands to

705
00:42:15,733 --> 00:42:20,853
Speaker 2: reason that that that on its own makes loosening up

706
00:42:21,013 --> 00:42:26,373
Speaker 2: more desirable. Yeah, efficiency, that efficient death, you know, I'm

707
00:42:26,413 --> 00:42:30,133
Speaker 2: looking at I'm looking at the executive summary. The emphasis

708
00:42:30,173 --> 00:42:33,533
Speaker 2: on an efficient death undermines the kind of consideration and

709
00:42:33,613 --> 00:42:38,773
Speaker 2: care that an informed choice requires. Efficient death didn't they

710
00:42:38,813 --> 00:42:42,533
Speaker 2: have that in places in Austria? And you've got to

711
00:42:42,573 --> 00:42:45,613
Speaker 2: argue that that's that's an efficient death or is that

712
00:42:45,653 --> 00:42:46,533
Speaker 2: an unfair question?

713
00:42:47,493 --> 00:42:51,253
Speaker 4: I mean, I can't answer for them. From the review,

714
00:42:51,413 --> 00:42:55,893
Speaker 4: you see that efficiency wins over safety. We do have

715
00:42:55,973 --> 00:42:56,773
Speaker 4: and I was actually.

716
00:42:56,533 --> 00:43:00,333
Speaker 2: Talking to but sorry, but I'm really referring to the

717
00:43:00,373 --> 00:43:05,653
Speaker 2: breakdown of resistance to morality right when I when I

718
00:43:05,693 --> 00:43:10,133
Speaker 2: make that comment, they thought they had an efficient death

719
00:43:10,493 --> 00:43:14,373
Speaker 2: back in the forties. You know, Yeah, it's got an

720
00:43:14,413 --> 00:43:17,373
Speaker 2: interpretation to it that squirms my stomach.

721
00:43:18,093 --> 00:43:22,653
Speaker 4: Yeah, I think that what the review that the Ministry

722
00:43:22,973 --> 00:43:26,733
Speaker 4: put out shows, and efficiency is one of the words

723
00:43:27,093 --> 00:43:31,373
Speaker 4: in there. It's also just quite a materialistic view of humanity,

724
00:43:31,413 --> 00:43:33,293
Speaker 4: and I think this is one of the reasons that

725
00:43:33,333 --> 00:43:38,933
Speaker 4: they pointedly said that some Arow communities disagree for those reasons.

726
00:43:39,413 --> 00:43:41,253
Speaker 3: If you believe that we are.

727
00:43:42,813 --> 00:43:46,933
Speaker 4: Like machines, just the summer of the building blocks, and

728
00:43:46,973 --> 00:43:50,293
Speaker 4: that there's nothing more to us than that, then it

729
00:43:50,333 --> 00:43:52,893
Speaker 4: does make sense to do the most efficient thing because

730
00:43:52,933 --> 00:43:56,173
Speaker 4: there is no moral discussion to be had. There's no

731
00:43:57,293 --> 00:44:00,733
Speaker 4: deeper meaning to death. Whereas for those of us who

732
00:44:00,773 --> 00:44:02,853
Speaker 4: believe that there's you know, mind, body, and soul, that

733
00:44:02,893 --> 00:44:07,733
Speaker 4: we actually are integrated beings who live in community with

734
00:44:07,773 --> 00:44:13,373
Speaker 4: other integrated beings, and that there are questions beyond simple

735
00:44:14,173 --> 00:44:16,493
Speaker 4: ones of are you in pain or not? Are you

736
00:44:16,533 --> 00:44:19,013
Speaker 4: suffering or not? Because that becomes quite simple. If you're suffering,

737
00:44:19,093 --> 00:44:21,973
Speaker 4: suffering is bad, it's in the suffering. If it's too hard,

738
00:44:21,853 --> 00:44:23,813
Speaker 4: in the suffering, we in the sufferer. It's just a

739
00:44:23,893 --> 00:44:29,173
Speaker 4: very logical, materialistic view of things, and if you are

740
00:44:29,213 --> 00:44:32,253
Speaker 4: looking at things through that lens, this all makes sense.

741
00:44:33,093 --> 00:44:36,413
Speaker 4: There are no moral problems. It just comes down to

742
00:44:36,493 --> 00:44:39,213
Speaker 4: if it's legal, it's good. If it's legal, you should

743
00:44:39,253 --> 00:44:43,333
Speaker 4: be able to do it. We have by law made

744
00:44:43,413 --> 00:44:47,613
Speaker 4: something good, and it wasn't before it is now. This

745
00:44:47,653 --> 00:44:50,173
Speaker 4: is the field we're in. So those of us who

746
00:44:50,253 --> 00:44:53,853
Speaker 4: don't see it as that simple, and who do think

747
00:44:53,933 --> 00:44:56,373
Speaker 4: there are bigger questions here are never going to come

748
00:44:56,413 --> 00:45:00,013
Speaker 4: to the same conclusions as the Ministry of Health did

749
00:45:00,253 --> 00:45:01,013
Speaker 4: in its report.

750
00:45:02,133 --> 00:45:06,813
Speaker 2: You've given me entree to another approach, and that is

751
00:45:07,613 --> 00:45:13,653
Speaker 2: you take care doctors who have refused, who have refused

752
00:45:13,653 --> 00:45:18,173
Speaker 2: to prescribe the pill or certainly recommend an abortion, and

753
00:45:18,253 --> 00:45:22,733
Speaker 2: they find themselves under threat of losing their license in

754
00:45:23,213 --> 00:45:28,453
Speaker 2: various cases, various circumstances, but various cases. And they have,

755
00:45:28,933 --> 00:45:32,373
Speaker 2: they have, and I know of a couple. Why would

756
00:45:32,413 --> 00:45:36,853
Speaker 2: we not then extend that same approach to changing the

757
00:45:37,373 --> 00:45:40,693
Speaker 2: changing the rules, loosening up, doing what the what the

758
00:45:40,773 --> 00:45:45,213
Speaker 2: department wants. And you've got doctors who hold strong beliefs

759
00:45:45,653 --> 00:45:49,413
Speaker 2: in religion and think that this is totally out of order,

760
00:45:49,853 --> 00:45:53,093
Speaker 2: and they won't participate in it, and as a result

761
00:45:53,133 --> 00:45:55,253
Speaker 2: they end up losing their licenses because they won't do

762
00:45:55,293 --> 00:45:56,693
Speaker 2: what they're what they're told.

763
00:45:57,933 --> 00:45:58,173
Speaker 3: Either.

764
00:45:58,133 --> 00:46:02,373
Speaker 4: Are two areas where contentious objection rights are are stated

765
00:46:02,813 --> 00:46:06,013
Speaker 4: in healthcare. One is abortion and the other is euthanasia.

766
00:46:06,093 --> 00:46:12,973
Speaker 4: Not surprisingly so technically doctors do have conscientious objection rights,

767
00:46:12,973 --> 00:46:16,213
Speaker 4: and actually I would say that far more doctors than

768
00:46:16,333 --> 00:46:19,813
Speaker 4: just those who hold faith will not participate in euthenasia.

769
00:46:19,933 --> 00:46:24,053
Speaker 4: There's actually a very small number of doctors who are

770
00:46:24,533 --> 00:46:27,173
Speaker 4: on the register of those who offer it, and a

771
00:46:27,253 --> 00:46:29,693
Speaker 4: few more have provided it, but it is not something

772
00:46:29,693 --> 00:46:33,773
Speaker 4: that they went into that profession intending to do, and

773
00:46:33,893 --> 00:46:37,333
Speaker 4: most do not want to do it. Some for very

774
00:46:37,413 --> 00:46:42,133
Speaker 4: deep conscience reasons, will never do it. What the Ministry

775
00:46:42,213 --> 00:46:47,293
Speaker 4: said in its review it would, in my view, imped

776
00:46:47,453 --> 00:46:52,013
Speaker 4: on conscientious objection rights because it sees referring a patient

777
00:46:52,093 --> 00:46:56,413
Speaker 4: on for euthanasia, providing all the materials for referral. It

778
00:46:56,453 --> 00:47:00,173
Speaker 4: doesn't see that as offending somebody's conscience. At the moment,

779
00:47:01,093 --> 00:47:05,613
Speaker 4: all a doctor has to say is there is the

780
00:47:05,653 --> 00:47:08,853
Speaker 4: Ministry of Health a department where you can get information

781
00:47:08,933 --> 00:47:10,853
Speaker 4: from point them in the direction of where they can

782
00:47:10,893 --> 00:47:14,573
Speaker 4: get information and then they can do their own calling

783
00:47:14,573 --> 00:47:17,933
Speaker 4: around to find out who will assess them and all

784
00:47:17,973 --> 00:47:18,333
Speaker 4: the rest.

785
00:47:18,893 --> 00:47:20,213
Speaker 3: They don't have to do it themselves.

786
00:47:20,253 --> 00:47:22,333
Speaker 4: The Ministry would like to nudge that forward a little

787
00:47:22,333 --> 00:47:23,973
Speaker 4: bit and say, well, you need to refer them on,

788
00:47:24,173 --> 00:47:28,533
Speaker 4: you need to provide the materials for some doctors that

789
00:47:28,693 --> 00:47:32,013
Speaker 4: will offend their conscientious objection rights. And the Ministry would

790
00:47:32,093 --> 00:47:36,293
Speaker 4: like to go further and require all care homes, hospices,

791
00:47:36,453 --> 00:47:42,453
Speaker 4: anybody where that's the patient's residence to allow euthanasia on site,

792
00:47:43,173 --> 00:47:48,213
Speaker 4: so dictate what can can't happen on site, or in

793
00:47:48,253 --> 00:47:50,813
Speaker 4: the Ministry's view, they should lose their registration, which is

794
00:47:50,853 --> 00:47:54,093
Speaker 4: quite heavy handed because you're giving a hospice an option

795
00:47:54,173 --> 00:47:57,413
Speaker 4: between shutting down or allowing euthanasia on site.

796
00:47:57,653 --> 00:47:57,853
Speaker 3: Now.

797
00:47:57,893 --> 00:48:00,413
Speaker 4: I know for a fact that the one hospice in

798
00:48:00,453 --> 00:48:03,013
Speaker 4: New Zealand that does allow it on site when it

799
00:48:03,053 --> 00:48:05,853
Speaker 4: made that decision, lost its charged nurse and over a

800
00:48:05,893 --> 00:48:09,293
Speaker 4: dozen staff instantly. They didn't want to work in where

801
00:48:09,613 --> 00:48:13,053
Speaker 4: euthanasia is being offered. I know from somebody who works

802
00:48:13,093 --> 00:48:18,133
Speaker 4: in palliative care in hospice care that there are patients

803
00:48:18,173 --> 00:48:22,373
Speaker 4: who actively don't go to that hospice because they don't

804
00:48:22,453 --> 00:48:26,013
Speaker 4: want to be in a facility where that's on the table.

805
00:48:27,373 --> 00:48:30,733
Speaker 4: If the Ministry is interested in people having choice, then

806
00:48:30,733 --> 00:48:33,093
Speaker 4: they should extend that choice to people who live in

807
00:48:33,493 --> 00:48:35,693
Speaker 4: care homes so that they can choose to go to

808
00:48:35,893 --> 00:48:40,173
Speaker 4: ones that do or don't offer euthanasia on site. It

809
00:48:40,293 --> 00:48:42,453
Speaker 4: says in its review that one of the options is

810
00:48:43,013 --> 00:48:47,133
Speaker 4: for a care home to be upfront when somebody begins

811
00:48:47,173 --> 00:48:49,853
Speaker 4: living there, to say, look, we do or don't offer

812
00:48:49,893 --> 00:48:52,493
Speaker 4: this on site, and then then the patient can decide

813
00:48:52,573 --> 00:48:56,693
Speaker 4: whether or not they want to live there. That seems

814
00:48:56,733 --> 00:49:00,773
Speaker 4: like a reasonable solution. The Ministry said, no, that's not

815
00:49:00,853 --> 00:49:04,813
Speaker 4: a reasonable solution because it will hinder access for people

816
00:49:04,853 --> 00:49:06,733
Speaker 4: living in care homes that don't allow it on site.

817
00:49:07,493 --> 00:49:09,053
Speaker 3: So you see where this is going.

818
00:49:09,173 --> 00:49:15,573
Speaker 4: It's very much everybody must participate mindset, which I think

819
00:49:15,813 --> 00:49:17,173
Speaker 4: actually limits people's choice.

820
00:49:17,213 --> 00:49:19,853
Speaker 2: I'm going to take it one step further. We're all

821
00:49:19,933 --> 00:49:24,293
Speaker 2: well aware of the compulsion that came into play during COVID.

822
00:49:25,893 --> 00:49:29,813
Speaker 2: Why wouldn't we Why might we not reach a similar

823
00:49:29,853 --> 00:49:34,813
Speaker 2: situation down the track where the escape hatch that you've

824
00:49:34,853 --> 00:49:39,773
Speaker 2: just described for doctors is eliminated, that it's becomes compulsory

825
00:49:39,813 --> 00:49:44,013
Speaker 2: for whatever reason, from whatever whatever type of government might

826
00:49:44,053 --> 00:49:45,493
Speaker 2: have found its way into the beehive.

827
00:49:46,093 --> 00:49:46,373
Speaker 3: Yep.

828
00:49:47,853 --> 00:49:50,813
Speaker 2: In other words, I'm one for looking at the downside

829
00:49:50,813 --> 00:49:54,413
Speaker 2: of things a lot of the time, not looking so

830
00:49:54,573 --> 00:49:57,373
Speaker 2: much at the upside, because the downside can be a

831
00:49:57,373 --> 00:49:58,733
Speaker 2: downside worse than what you've got.

832
00:49:59,373 --> 00:50:02,493
Speaker 4: Yeah, I mean your reference COVID. I don't think any

833
00:50:02,533 --> 00:50:05,053
Speaker 4: of us before that could have imagined that the compulsion

834
00:50:05,053 --> 00:50:07,173
Speaker 4: could have gone as far as it did. And I

835
00:50:07,173 --> 00:50:10,013
Speaker 4: think some people still say, I think that it wasn't

836
00:50:10,053 --> 00:50:14,613
Speaker 4: particularly bad, but we know the level of compulsion that

837
00:50:14,653 --> 00:50:20,133
Speaker 4: can be put on people to you know, the complete

838
00:50:20,173 --> 00:50:24,573
Speaker 4: disregard of their conscience, among other things. They shouldn't be

839
00:50:24,653 --> 00:50:28,133
Speaker 4: in law that the Ministry can pull the plug on

840
00:50:28,213 --> 00:50:32,053
Speaker 4: a hospice which provides excellent services that most of us

841
00:50:32,053 --> 00:50:35,333
Speaker 4: will need someday based on the fact that it won't

842
00:50:35,493 --> 00:50:40,133
Speaker 4: allow people to be euthanized on site.

843
00:50:41,933 --> 00:50:46,173
Speaker 2: At the end, you let me try that again. At

844
00:50:46,173 --> 00:50:51,293
Speaker 2: the end of the executive summary, you say, neither this

845
00:50:51,373 --> 00:50:55,013
Speaker 2: stants by the Ministry nor the legislation as it stands,

846
00:50:55,173 --> 00:51:01,333
Speaker 2: support independent, informed and free patient choice to improve the

847
00:51:01,413 --> 00:51:03,493
Speaker 2: quality of end of life care in New Zealand and

848
00:51:03,533 --> 00:51:08,133
Speaker 2: to ensure meaningful choice. We make a number of recommendations

849
00:51:09,053 --> 00:51:09,893
Speaker 2: they aim.

850
00:51:09,693 --> 00:51:13,173
Speaker 4: To what Well, if the law is going to stand

851
00:51:13,173 --> 00:51:16,733
Speaker 4: as it is, then those recommendations are that the safeguards

852
00:51:17,053 --> 00:51:20,613
Speaker 4: be short up so what is on paper is actually enforced,

853
00:51:20,653 --> 00:51:22,013
Speaker 4: which it's not being.

854
00:51:23,373 --> 00:51:23,973
Speaker 3: On paper.

855
00:51:24,133 --> 00:51:28,133
Speaker 4: Doctors are to do their best to detect coercion. Well,

856
00:51:28,173 --> 00:51:32,533
Speaker 4: I know for a fact that at one hospice they

857
00:51:32,613 --> 00:51:36,693
Speaker 4: had about seventy odd patients who applied for euthanasia over

858
00:51:36,693 --> 00:51:39,933
Speaker 4: a year, and they had I think a total of

859
00:51:40,173 --> 00:51:44,333
Speaker 4: three phone calls from the assessing physician. So they're not

860
00:51:44,413 --> 00:51:47,373
Speaker 4: contacting caregivers and saying tell me about this patient. It's

861
00:51:47,533 --> 00:51:51,533
Speaker 4: hardly ever happening. How are they detecting coercion? I mean

862
00:51:51,933 --> 00:51:55,973
Speaker 4: it is by nature behind closed doors and subtile you're

863
00:51:56,013 --> 00:51:58,333
Speaker 4: not going to ask a patient or are you being coerced?

864
00:51:58,373 --> 00:51:59,813
Speaker 3: No, I'm not. Okay, We're all.

865
00:51:59,693 --> 00:52:03,853
Speaker 4: Good that efforts are not being made to do even

866
00:52:03,893 --> 00:52:06,893
Speaker 4: what's in the legislation. And then the legislation should have

867
00:52:06,973 --> 00:52:10,813
Speaker 4: things that are standard overseas, like a cool down period,

868
00:52:11,653 --> 00:52:17,093
Speaker 4: like referral to palliatsive care specialists that would actually improve

869
00:52:17,173 --> 00:52:23,253
Speaker 4: the quality of choice. And as far as the other recommendations,

870
00:52:24,053 --> 00:52:28,813
Speaker 4: end of life literacy training, and funding palliative care specialists,

871
00:52:28,853 --> 00:52:32,173
Speaker 4: and obviously like funding hospices that would make a massive

872
00:52:32,173 --> 00:52:35,853
Speaker 4: difference to people's options right away, improving palliative care in

873
00:52:35,933 --> 00:52:41,173
Speaker 4: hospitals in homes and improving access to hospices.

874
00:52:41,293 --> 00:52:42,933
Speaker 2: Or requiring money that we can't find.

875
00:52:44,253 --> 00:52:47,893
Speaker 4: Well, this is the interesting thing with hospices. For every

876
00:52:47,933 --> 00:52:50,373
Speaker 4: dollar that the government funds them, they provide a dollar

877
00:52:50,453 --> 00:52:52,973
Speaker 4: fifty nine in services, because those are people who are

878
00:52:53,013 --> 00:52:56,573
Speaker 4: not ending up in the er, they're not ending up

879
00:52:56,613 --> 00:53:01,053
Speaker 4: in and out of hospital. Palliative care can provide care

880
00:53:01,093 --> 00:53:03,093
Speaker 4: for people in their own homes where they're not taking

881
00:53:03,173 --> 00:53:09,213
Speaker 4: up a bed anywhere at all. So hospices actually it's

882
00:53:09,253 --> 00:53:11,613
Speaker 4: a pretty good bang for your buck, and it's better

883
00:53:11,693 --> 00:53:14,893
Speaker 4: care than any other option. So if we're going to

884
00:53:14,933 --> 00:53:17,933
Speaker 4: find money for anything, that should be one of the

885
00:53:17,933 --> 00:53:19,773
Speaker 4: things we find it for. If we can find it

886
00:53:19,813 --> 00:53:23,293
Speaker 4: for euthanasia, and this is my argument, nobody should be

887
00:53:23,293 --> 00:53:26,413
Speaker 4: given a choice between euthanasia and not having palliative care.

888
00:53:26,773 --> 00:53:29,653
Speaker 4: They don't have palliative care services, then saying that you

889
00:53:29,693 --> 00:53:32,773
Speaker 4: can in your life is just a really shoddy option.

890
00:53:33,693 --> 00:53:35,853
Speaker 2: In conclusion, you put a lot of work into this,

891
00:53:36,173 --> 00:53:39,533
Speaker 2: and I imagine you were confronted by things that you

892
00:53:39,613 --> 00:53:42,013
Speaker 2: hadn't thought of before, or at least not to the

893
00:53:42,053 --> 00:53:46,973
Speaker 2: extent that you needed to. What is your personal approach

894
00:53:47,213 --> 00:53:49,693
Speaker 2: after doing all this research and writing this report.

895
00:53:51,173 --> 00:53:53,493
Speaker 3: I think the thing that I've come away with.

896
00:53:55,013 --> 00:53:57,613
Speaker 4: That stands up the most is respect for people who

897
00:53:57,693 --> 00:54:01,173
Speaker 4: work an end of life care. Speaking to palliative care physicians,

898
00:54:01,293 --> 00:54:06,013
Speaker 4: reading books and articles by them, they do amazing work,

899
00:54:06,133 --> 00:54:09,613
Speaker 4: and even within medical circles people don't really like talking

900
00:54:09,613 --> 00:54:12,173
Speaker 4: about death. Most doctors are there to keep people alive

901
00:54:13,093 --> 00:54:17,213
Speaker 4: as long as possible. It's an amazing specialty. Talking to

902
00:54:17,253 --> 00:54:20,573
Speaker 4: people who've had family members pass away in hospice care

903
00:54:20,933 --> 00:54:25,053
Speaker 4: have said the most wonderful things about the experience. I

904
00:54:25,133 --> 00:54:29,173
Speaker 4: had no idea how good the service was, what a

905
00:54:29,213 --> 00:54:31,653
Speaker 4: difference it makes in people's lives, and how dedicated the

906
00:54:31,693 --> 00:54:34,533
Speaker 4: people working in it are. So I just my respect

907
00:54:34,573 --> 00:54:37,733
Speaker 4: for them has grown, and my understanding of end of

908
00:54:37,773 --> 00:54:42,493
Speaker 4: life care options is way better than it was when

909
00:54:42,533 --> 00:54:43,173
Speaker 4: I started this.

910
00:54:43,973 --> 00:54:47,253
Speaker 2: All right, I've got one last point actually that have

911
00:54:47,333 --> 00:54:51,133
Speaker 2: slipped me. You haven't experienced death your own I haven't.

912
00:54:51,133 --> 00:54:54,653
Speaker 2: These are Abbie's statements. I know, but when you're on

913
00:54:54,693 --> 00:54:57,573
Speaker 2: your desk bed, and you might even be on the

914
00:54:58,373 --> 00:55:01,733
Speaker 2: last legs on the way out, is it possible that

915
00:55:01,893 --> 00:55:05,413
Speaker 2: you can have a personal conversion before you go, which

916
00:55:05,973 --> 00:55:09,493
Speaker 2: some would believe would have a very great effect.

917
00:55:09,133 --> 00:55:12,973
Speaker 3: On what follows on a conversion to what well I'm.

918
00:55:12,933 --> 00:55:15,573
Speaker 2: Thinking of I'm thinking of religious people or people who

919
00:55:15,653 --> 00:55:20,333
Speaker 2: who aren't religious, but maybe maybe in a position to

920
00:55:21,213 --> 00:55:26,013
Speaker 2: reconsider in those last but in those last few moments, I.

921
00:55:26,013 --> 00:55:29,373
Speaker 4: Don't think it's uncommon because I imagine again I can, I'm

922
00:55:29,533 --> 00:55:32,853
Speaker 4: sure everything will look quite different from that perspective of

923
00:55:32,853 --> 00:55:36,653
Speaker 4: looking back and knowing it's over. So I've heard stories

924
00:55:36,693 --> 00:55:39,253
Speaker 4: and I imagine that it's quite common for people to

925
00:55:39,373 --> 00:55:43,493
Speaker 4: have a completely new outlook on faith and other things

926
00:55:43,573 --> 00:55:44,533
Speaker 4: from that perspective.

927
00:55:44,933 --> 00:55:47,653
Speaker 2: Would that apply also to Eusinagia?

928
00:55:47,733 --> 00:55:50,973
Speaker 4: Do you think, as in being on your deathbed and thinking, oh,

929
00:55:50,973 --> 00:55:53,173
Speaker 4: I wish that that I'd supported it because I want

930
00:55:53,173 --> 00:55:55,333
Speaker 4: it now that confusion.

931
00:55:55,453 --> 00:56:01,773
Speaker 2: No, I'm meaning on your deskbed being euthanized and not

932
00:56:01,853 --> 00:56:05,053
Speaker 2: having not having that as far as i'm aware, not

933
00:56:05,133 --> 00:56:11,533
Speaker 2: having that that personal time available because you have curtailed it.

934
00:56:12,253 --> 00:56:14,213
Speaker 4: Yeah, it'd be a very different death when you've got

935
00:56:14,253 --> 00:56:17,333
Speaker 4: a countdown clock, good way to put it. You don't

936
00:56:17,333 --> 00:56:19,613
Speaker 4: have a countdown clock. If it's a natural death, you're

937
00:56:19,613 --> 00:56:20,413
Speaker 4: just rolling with it.

938
00:56:20,853 --> 00:56:23,733
Speaker 2: I think that you've produced an extremely good taper. How

939
00:56:23,773 --> 00:56:25,893
Speaker 2: does anybody get hold of it?

940
00:56:25,893 --> 00:56:29,293
Speaker 4: It's on our website so maxim dot org, dot and

941
00:56:29,453 --> 00:56:32,493
Speaker 4: z and there's a tab with our research. It'll probably

942
00:56:32,573 --> 00:56:35,413
Speaker 4: pop up on the homepage at the moment. And we've

943
00:56:35,413 --> 00:56:37,453
Speaker 4: got other resources as well.

944
00:56:37,973 --> 00:56:40,293
Speaker 2: They're well done, very good. Thank you very much, and

945
00:56:40,333 --> 00:56:41,133
Speaker 2: I appreciate your.

946
00:56:41,053 --> 00:56:44,053
Speaker 3: Time, and thank you so much for having me Later.

947
00:56:44,413 --> 00:56:48,973
Speaker 2: Mary Anne Spirtle from Maxim and it was a pleasure.

948
00:56:49,813 --> 00:57:10,813
Speaker 2: Thank you, and missus producer. We are here for podcast

949
00:57:10,893 --> 00:57:15,453
Speaker 2: number two hundred and ninety four edits mailroom, and we

950
00:57:15,533 --> 00:57:18,813
Speaker 2: haven't got long because you're being picked up. We're being

951
00:57:18,853 --> 00:57:20,013
Speaker 2: picked up at four o'clock.

952
00:57:20,693 --> 00:57:21,933
Speaker 5: Fantastic, can't wait.

953
00:57:22,493 --> 00:57:23,333
Speaker 2: But are you packed?

954
00:57:23,573 --> 00:57:24,173
Speaker 3: Unpacked?

955
00:57:24,573 --> 00:57:26,093
Speaker 2: You sure? I think so.

956
00:57:26,253 --> 00:57:29,293
Speaker 5: I put seven eighths of the wardrobe in there, so

957
00:57:29,333 --> 00:57:30,173
Speaker 5: it should be okay.

958
00:57:30,533 --> 00:57:33,933
Speaker 2: You need a whole room for that. Why did you roll? Laden?

959
00:57:34,013 --> 00:57:36,693
Speaker 5: Jim says, I find it ironic that throughout the recent

960
00:57:36,773 --> 00:57:42,493
Speaker 5: American election, the Democrats labeling Trump a threat to democracy. Yet,

961
00:57:42,653 --> 00:57:45,693
Speaker 5: as David Bell said, the real threat to democracy is

962
00:57:45,693 --> 00:57:49,773
Speaker 5: the small group of elites who use scam research, falsehoods,

963
00:57:49,813 --> 00:57:52,693
Speaker 5: and fears to coerce us into giving up our freedoms.

964
00:57:53,533 --> 00:57:56,573
Speaker 5: Just the week before, DearS Gorman said the same thing,

965
00:57:56,973 --> 00:58:00,173
Speaker 5: a culture of fear causes us to surrender our freedoms.

966
00:58:00,773 --> 00:58:04,733
Speaker 5: I was surprised at how this seemingly charming Ashley Bloomfield

967
00:58:04,853 --> 00:58:07,933
Speaker 5: turned out to be New Zealand's Anthony Farci. He used

968
00:58:07,933 --> 00:58:13,133
Speaker 5: the wholly intersectionality of health, climate change and religion to

969
00:58:13,253 --> 00:58:16,653
Speaker 5: propel the insidious COVID narrative of fear into the hearts

970
00:58:16,693 --> 00:58:20,453
Speaker 5: of New Zealanders. Today, the WHO and the UN are

971
00:58:20,453 --> 00:58:24,133
Speaker 5: still trying their damnedest to confiscate New Zealanders of our freedoms.

972
00:58:24,613 --> 00:58:29,573
Speaker 5: Our response to the who's dictatorial international health regulations needs

973
00:58:29,613 --> 00:58:35,653
Speaker 5: to be unswerving, unrelenting, and uncompromising, as David Seymour's response

974
00:58:35,733 --> 00:58:40,413
Speaker 5: to the UN's criticism of the Regulatory Standards Bill. New

975
00:58:40,493 --> 00:58:43,853
Speaker 5: Zealand's business is none of the Who's nor the UN's.

976
00:58:44,413 --> 00:58:47,813
Speaker 5: The limp wristed UN was formed to prevent World War three,

977
00:58:48,333 --> 00:58:50,493
Speaker 5: and they can't even prevent all the lesser wars of

978
00:58:50,533 --> 00:58:54,533
Speaker 5: the past decade. In the meantime, both have a blessed

979
00:58:54,613 --> 00:58:55,573
Speaker 5: and enjoyable trip.

980
00:58:55,693 --> 00:58:59,253
Speaker 2: You deserve it. In Carol Agen, thank you and for

981
00:58:59,373 --> 00:59:03,453
Speaker 2: all your input. This has written to Muriel Newman, but

982
00:59:03,573 --> 00:59:07,773
Speaker 2: been sent to me by Tim from Lenham. A very short,

983
00:59:08,613 --> 00:59:13,973
Speaker 2: very accurate. The problem with National is its leadership. The

984
00:59:14,013 --> 00:59:17,293
Speaker 2: membership and quite a few MPs are frustrated as hell

985
00:59:17,333 --> 00:59:21,613
Speaker 2: with the ladder fluff inaction and management speak coming from

986
00:59:21,613 --> 00:59:24,653
Speaker 2: the front bench. We want action on what we were

987
00:59:24,693 --> 00:59:28,253
Speaker 2: elected to do, but as usual the brains trust don't

988
00:59:28,253 --> 00:59:31,213
Speaker 2: listen to us. And we don't have political science and

989
00:59:31,413 --> 00:59:35,053
Speaker 2: or PR degrees. And we live in the real world,

990
00:59:35,173 --> 00:59:37,493
Speaker 2: not the bubbles of Wellington and Auckland. Keep up the

991
00:59:37,493 --> 00:59:39,013
Speaker 2: great work, Leighton.

992
00:59:39,093 --> 00:59:41,773
Speaker 5: Jim says, I have just finished the above book, and

993
00:59:41,853 --> 00:59:43,933
Speaker 5: by the above book he means the storm before the

994
00:59:43,973 --> 00:59:49,133
Speaker 5: calm George Freeman's book, and I must say a fascinating read.

995
00:59:49,453 --> 00:59:51,693
Speaker 5: A lot of history that I hadn't put together like this.

996
00:59:52,373 --> 00:59:55,013
Speaker 5: What I find interesting is the parallels to New Zealand

997
00:59:55,093 --> 00:59:57,893
Speaker 5: and where they where I see us today, but also

998
00:59:57,973 --> 01:00:01,373
Speaker 5: across the world. I now have a greater understanding of

999
01:00:01,413 --> 01:00:04,213
Speaker 5: Trump and his support base and what he is trying

1000
01:00:04,253 --> 01:00:08,893
Speaker 5: to achieve. Thank you for the weekly insights Storm before

1001
01:00:08,933 --> 01:00:10,453
Speaker 5: the Calm, George Friedman.

1002
01:00:10,213 --> 01:00:14,333
Speaker 2: And from Jim Jim Jim Jim, if you want to

1003
01:00:14,333 --> 01:00:17,173
Speaker 2: expand on that at any stage, go for it, because

1004
01:00:18,213 --> 01:00:24,133
Speaker 2: I'm appreciative of what you've written. From Brett A. KEYW

1005
01:00:24,293 --> 01:00:27,413
Speaker 2: Chap has done the costings for the UK. I see

1006
01:00:27,453 --> 01:00:31,293
Speaker 2: someone has done the AU costings, the Australian costings, which

1007
01:00:31,453 --> 01:00:35,213
Speaker 2: I haven't looked into. Costings have been done for the planet,

1008
01:00:35,333 --> 01:00:39,133
Speaker 2: both in dollars and earth resources. Not sure where we're

1009
01:00:39,133 --> 01:00:42,613
Speaker 2: going to find an additional plant to supply everything. Not

1010
01:00:42,693 --> 01:00:45,773
Speaker 2: forgetting wind and solar and batteries have to be replaced

1011
01:00:45,773 --> 01:00:49,853
Speaker 2: every fifteen years or so or they just rip them out,

1012
01:00:49,973 --> 01:00:51,693
Speaker 2: which is what they're doing in a number of places

1013
01:00:51,693 --> 01:00:54,573
Speaker 2: around the world now. So you have that cost every

1014
01:00:54,693 --> 01:00:58,573
Speaker 2: cycle to find whether agree with the figures as worked

1015
01:00:58,573 --> 01:01:01,893
Speaker 2: out or not, is of no importance as high or

1016
01:01:01,933 --> 01:01:05,373
Speaker 2: low it is unachievable. Then you have to measure the

1017
01:01:05,453 --> 01:01:08,813
Speaker 2: observed difference to climate warming that you have made if

1018
01:01:08,813 --> 01:01:11,173
Speaker 2: it can be done at all. Not forgetting, half the

1019
01:01:11,213 --> 01:01:15,173
Speaker 2: world is increasing emissions the whole time. None of it

1020
01:01:15,213 --> 01:01:18,533
Speaker 2: will work out and we will have achieved nothing. Oh

1021
01:01:18,613 --> 01:01:21,493
Speaker 2: yes we will. We will have thrown away so much

1022
01:01:21,573 --> 01:01:25,253
Speaker 2: money that will be bankrupt. What does it cost the

1023
01:01:25,293 --> 01:01:29,013
Speaker 2: New Zealand economy and the taxpayer so far? What will

1024
01:01:29,013 --> 01:01:32,093
Speaker 2: it cost in the coming years and decades? What will

1025
01:01:32,133 --> 01:01:35,213
Speaker 2: we have to show for it all the dollar return

1026
01:01:35,293 --> 01:01:38,693
Speaker 2: on investment and cost benefit? What will that look like?

1027
01:01:39,453 --> 01:01:43,573
Speaker 2: New Zealand governments have lost all their faculties pushing this stuff.

1028
01:01:44,013 --> 01:01:46,853
Speaker 2: We do not have the technology or the money to

1029
01:01:46,973 --> 01:01:51,013
Speaker 2: meet the ambitions of governments. Bred pretty good.

1030
01:01:51,973 --> 01:01:55,733
Speaker 5: Layton Nairi says thank you for your wonderful podcasts. I

1031
01:01:55,773 --> 01:01:59,333
Speaker 5: have become a dedicated follower since moving north from Canterbury

1032
01:01:59,373 --> 01:02:02,133
Speaker 5: in time for the lockdown and being introduced to them

1033
01:02:02,173 --> 01:02:06,533
Speaker 5: by my daughter. They're the perfect accompaniment to my regular walks.

1034
01:02:06,853 --> 01:02:09,173
Speaker 5: They also give me lots to dec gussen debate with

1035
01:02:09,213 --> 01:02:13,413
Speaker 5: my four eighteen to twenty one year old grandsons from politics.

1036
01:02:13,573 --> 01:02:17,493
Speaker 5: It education never too old or too young to learn

1037
01:02:17,533 --> 01:02:20,493
Speaker 5: from each other. I was very sorry to hear of

1038
01:02:20,493 --> 01:02:23,053
Speaker 5: the recent death of Professor des Gorman. To hear the

1039
01:02:23,093 --> 01:02:25,893
Speaker 5: replay of your discussion with him was an excellent reminder

1040
01:02:25,933 --> 01:02:30,013
Speaker 5: of earlier times. Such well spoken messages and insights from

1041
01:02:30,013 --> 01:02:33,573
Speaker 5: the man, he will be sadly missed by many. I

1042
01:02:33,613 --> 01:02:36,773
Speaker 5: wish you both a wonderful upcoming holiday. Please you finally

1043
01:02:36,773 --> 01:02:37,973
Speaker 5: got your Turkish visa?

1044
01:02:38,533 --> 01:02:38,973
Speaker 2: So am I?

1045
01:02:39,333 --> 01:02:39,733
Speaker 5: So am I?

1046
01:02:39,853 --> 01:02:40,093
Speaker 1: Iri?

1047
01:02:41,373 --> 01:02:42,093
Speaker 3: I hope you don't.

1048
01:02:42,613 --> 01:02:44,653
Speaker 5: I hope I don't have similar fun in games for

1049
01:02:44,773 --> 01:02:48,493
Speaker 5: my Azerbaijan visa As a New Zealander, I thankfully don't

1050
01:02:48,533 --> 01:02:52,573
Speaker 5: need one for Armenia, Georgia and Turkey leaving in two weeks.

1051
01:02:52,893 --> 01:02:54,333
Speaker 5: I hope you have a fantastic time.

1052
01:02:54,413 --> 01:02:55,213
Speaker 3: I'm sure you will.

1053
01:02:55,973 --> 01:02:57,933
Speaker 5: Nri goes on to say I look forward to catching

1054
01:02:57,933 --> 01:03:01,093
Speaker 5: your podcasts with your son in London. I haven't heard

1055
01:03:01,093 --> 01:03:03,013
Speaker 5: your dates yet, but I may pick them up from

1056
01:03:03,053 --> 01:03:06,653
Speaker 5: France in September. I love to travel, but in spite

1057
01:03:06,653 --> 01:03:08,933
Speaker 5: of my criticisms of much of what is happening in

1058
01:03:08,973 --> 01:03:12,173
Speaker 5: New Zealand, I love to come home, as do I

1059
01:03:12,253 --> 01:03:17,213
Speaker 5: and Iri ps the outraged expression I can't believe it

1060
01:03:17,213 --> 01:03:20,493
Speaker 5: has become a joke and is banned. Have a fabulous

1061
01:03:20,533 --> 01:03:21,533
Speaker 5: time and best wishes.

1062
01:03:21,613 --> 01:03:23,253
Speaker 2: Quite a lot to comment on in that if you

1063
01:03:23,253 --> 01:03:27,173
Speaker 2: can remember what it was, just just with regard to you,

1064
01:03:27,213 --> 01:03:29,253
Speaker 2: know you love New Zealand and you love coming home whatever.

1065
01:03:31,013 --> 01:03:33,493
Speaker 2: I don't disagree with that. Coming home wherever your home

1066
01:03:33,693 --> 01:03:40,093
Speaker 2: is is always pretty much a welcome thing. And I

1067
01:03:40,133 --> 01:03:42,413
Speaker 2: can remember, I can cast my mind back where I am,

1068
01:03:43,133 --> 01:03:46,093
Speaker 2: and I can remember when everything changed to me here.

1069
01:03:46,493 --> 01:03:48,533
Speaker 5: I don't know, it's periods of your life. I suppose

1070
01:03:48,573 --> 01:03:51,413
Speaker 5: I can remember in my twenties going with my friends

1071
01:03:51,413 --> 01:03:55,013
Speaker 5: to Spain or Portugal on holiday and coming back miserable

1072
01:03:55,053 --> 01:03:57,613
Speaker 5: to London and sitting around saying, should we just go

1073
01:03:57,653 --> 01:04:01,013
Speaker 5: and buy a bar and Fangerolla or Malagara or somewhere,

1074
01:04:01,053 --> 01:04:01,773
Speaker 5: you know, because it.

1075
01:04:01,733 --> 01:04:04,813
Speaker 2: Was warmer over there. That was youth talking.

1076
01:04:04,933 --> 01:04:07,253
Speaker 5: That was youth talking, and I'm jolly glad that we

1077
01:04:07,333 --> 01:04:07,933
Speaker 5: never did it.

1078
01:04:08,573 --> 01:04:13,213
Speaker 2: The other aspect is regular exits. I haven't been apart

1079
01:04:13,213 --> 01:04:16,293
Speaker 2: from Australia, apart from Sydney. I have been back to

1080
01:04:16,333 --> 01:04:21,253
Speaker 2: Europe for two years and with family there. It's something

1081
01:04:21,293 --> 01:04:23,693
Speaker 2: that is now on the agenda pretty much every year.

1082
01:04:23,893 --> 01:04:26,533
Speaker 2: But you are chuing time off late for the moment. Yeah,

1083
01:04:26,613 --> 01:04:30,613
Speaker 2: well that's true. I agree. Let's just not forget one

1084
01:04:30,733 --> 01:04:32,733
Speaker 2: important thing. Life is what you make it.

1085
01:04:32,813 --> 01:04:33,653
Speaker 5: Life's wonderful.

1086
01:04:33,853 --> 01:04:38,853
Speaker 2: Okay. So finally from John Great interview with David Bell.

1087
01:04:39,693 --> 01:04:41,493
Speaker 2: I have sent the link to a lot of people

1088
01:04:41,533 --> 01:04:43,533
Speaker 2: who should hear what he has to say. Read the

1089
01:04:43,733 --> 01:04:48,933
Speaker 2: who scam Simon is certainly very low wattage. Read there's

1090
01:04:49,013 --> 01:04:51,453
Speaker 2: gorman from me. One of the most salient points he

1091
01:04:51,493 --> 01:04:54,333
Speaker 2: made was in response to your question. You asked him

1092
01:04:54,773 --> 01:04:56,453
Speaker 2: if there is one thing that you were in a

1093
01:04:56,493 --> 01:05:01,333
Speaker 2: position to do to achieve one thing? What his answer was,

1094
01:05:01,533 --> 01:05:05,133
Speaker 2: I'd probably focus on health in this case in New Zealand, Layton,

1095
01:05:05,693 --> 01:05:08,653
Speaker 2: and I would look for a reform that was driven

1096
01:05:08,693 --> 01:05:11,933
Speaker 2: from the eyes and the voice and the experience of

1097
01:05:12,013 --> 01:05:16,373
Speaker 2: the consumer. This is exactly what's required, and until that happens,

1098
01:05:16,693 --> 01:05:19,493
Speaker 2: it'll be more of the same. If only Dez had

1099
01:05:19,533 --> 01:05:21,853
Speaker 2: remained with us to provide the leadership that will be

1100
01:05:21,933 --> 01:05:25,413
Speaker 2: necessary if we ever achieved. This a very good example

1101
01:05:25,453 --> 01:05:31,173
Speaker 2: of why we the people should have a voice for

1102
01:05:31,333 --> 01:05:35,413
Speaker 2: many many people have known this for years, but standard

1103
01:05:35,413 --> 01:05:39,773
Speaker 2: of care makes a lot of money for Farmer. And

1104
01:05:39,813 --> 01:05:41,853
Speaker 2: then he concludes with you mentioned that you will be

1105
01:05:41,893 --> 01:05:44,613
Speaker 2: on a cruise visiting Turkey. I am very envious. I

1106
01:05:44,613 --> 01:05:49,133
Speaker 2: love ships, so do we believe me? Thank you John,

1107
01:05:49,493 --> 01:05:52,613
Speaker 2: A very good input, missus producer. Thank you for your input.

1108
01:05:52,693 --> 01:05:55,293
Speaker 2: Thanks Layton, and I'll go and I call up your

1109
01:05:55,293 --> 01:06:08,933
Speaker 2: bag Layton Smith now for a podcast update. I actually

1110
01:06:08,933 --> 01:06:11,733
Speaker 2: can't think of a more appropriate time to visit the UK,

1111
01:06:12,013 --> 01:06:17,773
Speaker 2: London in particular, where there is change afoot. It's been

1112
01:06:17,773 --> 01:06:22,173
Speaker 2: building for some time. Immigration will ruin the UK if

1113
01:06:22,213 --> 01:06:26,653
Speaker 2: it isn't arrested. All manner of social issues seem uncontrollable, violence,

1114
01:06:26,693 --> 01:06:31,533
Speaker 2: crime in general, anti Semitism, and of course the battle

1115
01:06:31,813 --> 01:06:35,613
Speaker 2: over so called climate change. So we shall be away

1116
01:06:35,653 --> 01:06:39,533
Speaker 2: for a few weeks away, but not absence. I've selected

1117
01:06:39,533 --> 01:06:43,613
Speaker 2: a few interviews from earlier times that are worthy of repeat,

1118
01:06:44,093 --> 01:06:48,333
Speaker 2: along with some fresh material and whatever might be forthcoming

1119
01:06:48,413 --> 01:06:51,053
Speaker 2: from London. But let me leave you with this, just

1120
01:06:51,093 --> 01:06:54,613
Speaker 2: in case you hadn't noticed, the same attitudes have been

1121
01:06:54,773 --> 01:06:59,413
Speaker 2: adopted in the Anglo sphere no matter who's in charge.

1122
01:06:59,613 --> 01:07:02,053
Speaker 2: The Left is in charge in Canada, left is in

1123
01:07:02,173 --> 01:07:06,133
Speaker 2: charge in Britain, Left is in charge in Australia, and

1124
01:07:06,693 --> 01:07:10,293
Speaker 2: you could argue there's not a lot of difference here,

1125
01:07:10,693 --> 01:07:14,053
Speaker 2: but we live in hope. Nevertheless, the people who are

1126
01:07:14,093 --> 01:07:19,213
Speaker 2: in charge are all morons. Specifically when it comes to

1127
01:07:19,253 --> 01:07:22,533
Speaker 2: climate change. Net zero is the most idiotic policy that

1128
01:07:22,653 --> 01:07:26,853
Speaker 2: anybody could have invented, and it's being pushed beyond belief

1129
01:07:27,373 --> 01:07:29,973
Speaker 2: in spite of the evidence against. Let me quote you

1130
01:07:30,053 --> 01:07:34,973
Speaker 2: something to round out this podcast. Climate denial should not

1131
01:07:35,013 --> 01:07:38,093
Speaker 2: be legal. That's the headline of a Spectator piece from

1132
01:07:38,133 --> 01:07:43,253
Speaker 2: London back on July sixteenth. You can tell the environmentalists

1133
01:07:43,373 --> 01:07:46,853
Speaker 2: are on the back foot. Energy Secretary Ed Miliband is

1134
01:07:46,853 --> 01:07:51,333
Speaker 2: issuing doomsday proclamations in Parliament, branding reform and the Tories

1135
01:07:51,533 --> 01:07:55,453
Speaker 2: unpatriotic for refusing to go along with his deranged which

1136
01:07:55,493 --> 01:07:57,573
Speaker 2: is a better word than the one I used deranged

1137
01:07:57,733 --> 01:08:02,093
Speaker 2: net zero policies, and now labor donors are also calling

1138
01:08:02,173 --> 01:08:07,333
Speaker 2: for climate denial to be criminalized, because nothing says we're

1139
01:08:07,373 --> 01:08:11,293
Speaker 2: winning the argument like locking up your opponents. Green tycoon

1140
01:08:11,453 --> 01:08:15,453
Speaker 2: Dale Vince, a man whose woeful politics can be accurately

1141
01:08:15,493 --> 01:08:19,173
Speaker 2: inferred from his appearance and donated five million pounds to

1142
01:08:19,413 --> 01:08:22,853
Speaker 2: Labor ahead of the last general election. Ever since, he's

1143
01:08:22,893 --> 01:08:27,373
Speaker 2: been publicly dispensing increasingly crazed and often totally self serving

1144
01:08:27,453 --> 01:08:31,973
Speaker 2: advice to the government he helped put in office. After

1145
01:08:32,013 --> 01:08:35,173
Speaker 2: Milliband announced this week that he was to give the

1146
01:08:35,213 --> 01:08:38,133
Speaker 2: first of what he intends to make an annual climate

1147
01:08:38,213 --> 01:08:43,653
Speaker 2: statement in Parliament. Vince took to X to congratulate the

1148
01:08:43,813 --> 01:08:47,133
Speaker 2: Energy Secretary and urge him to go further. Quote good

1149
01:08:47,173 --> 01:08:49,773
Speaker 2: move from ed. It's time to tell it like it is.

1150
01:08:50,133 --> 01:08:54,133
Speaker 2: I'd make climate denial a criminal offense, given the incredible

1151
01:08:54,133 --> 01:08:57,253
Speaker 2: harm it will cause, even by slowing down progress to

1152
01:08:57,773 --> 01:09:01,813
Speaker 2: NED zero. This isn't a new idea. Deep greens have

1153
01:09:01,893 --> 01:09:05,173
Speaker 2: been agitating for it for years. Last month, the UN

1154
01:09:05,293 --> 01:09:11,053
Speaker 2: Special Rapperteur of for Human Rights and Climate Change, Elisa Mulgera,

1155
01:09:11,453 --> 01:09:14,853
Speaker 2: called for media and advertising firms to be held criminally

1156
01:09:15,053 --> 01:09:21,613
Speaker 2: liable for amplifying disinformation and misinformation by fossil fuel companies, because,

1157
01:09:21,693 --> 01:09:26,053
Speaker 2: as we all know, the scientific method is all about

1158
01:09:26,133 --> 01:09:29,533
Speaker 2: some bureaucrat deciding what the truth is and then imposing

1159
01:09:29,573 --> 01:09:32,893
Speaker 2: that on the press and civil society. These are not

1160
01:09:33,013 --> 01:09:36,173
Speaker 2: the proposals of a movement that's confident in its argument.

1161
01:09:36,613 --> 01:09:40,413
Speaker 2: The more that voters bristle against elite greenism, refusing to

1162
01:09:40,493 --> 01:09:43,693
Speaker 2: accept that their lives must be more expensive and less

1163
01:09:43,733 --> 01:09:48,093
Speaker 2: free in order to meet arbitrary climate targets, the more

1164
01:09:48,133 --> 01:09:52,653
Speaker 2: green stuff panticizing about the deniers being led away in handcuffs.

1165
01:09:53,373 --> 01:09:56,573
Speaker 2: Ordinary people care about the environment, but they're just not

1166
01:09:56,773 --> 01:10:00,533
Speaker 2: buying the eco austerity the elites are selling, and rightly so.

1167
01:10:01,533 --> 01:10:04,573
Speaker 2: And skipping to the end of this piece from the

1168
01:10:04,773 --> 01:10:09,013
Speaker 2: fossil fueled workers who backed Donald Trump with drill maybe

1169
01:10:09,093 --> 01:10:14,413
Speaker 2: drill to the revolt in France against Emmanuel Macron's punishing

1170
01:10:14,493 --> 01:10:18,173
Speaker 2: eco taxes. Ordinary people have had enough of being made

1171
01:10:18,293 --> 01:10:22,693
Speaker 2: worse off to selve the consciences of Rich Green's posing

1172
01:10:22,693 --> 01:10:27,213
Speaker 2: as saviors of the planet. No wonder Vince is rattled now.

1173
01:10:27,293 --> 01:10:30,813
Speaker 2: The environmentalists hope to do with censorship what they have

1174
01:10:30,933 --> 01:10:34,733
Speaker 2: failed to do with persuasion. Do not let them get

1175
01:10:34,733 --> 01:10:37,613
Speaker 2: away with it. And all of the above is applicable.

1176
01:10:38,133 --> 01:10:40,813
Speaker 2: And that'll take us out for two ninety four. We

1177
01:10:40,853 --> 01:10:45,133
Speaker 2: shall return in a week with something very interesting. I

1178
01:10:45,133 --> 01:10:48,173
Speaker 2: think you'll I think you'll appreciate it. Our great thing actually,

1179
01:10:48,893 --> 01:10:51,613
Speaker 2: so if you want to write to us, we will

1180
01:10:51,653 --> 01:10:55,053
Speaker 2: be checking the mail occasionally. Latent at Newstalks atb dot

1181
01:10:55,093 --> 01:10:58,853
Speaker 2: co dot enz and Carolyn at Newstalks ab dot co

1182
01:10:59,053 --> 01:11:03,773
Speaker 2: dot nz. So until we meet again, as the saying goes,

1183
01:11:04,493 --> 01:11:07,773
Speaker 2: thank you for listening, and we shall talk soon.

1184
01:11:08,413 --> 01:11:10,613
Speaker 4: M hmmmmmmm.

1185
01:11:15,693 --> 01:11:19,333
Speaker 1: Thank you for more from News Talks at B, listen

1186
01:11:19,413 --> 01:11:22,373
Speaker 1: live on air or online, and keep our shows with

1187
01:11:22,493 --> 01:11:25,653
Speaker 1: you wherever you go with our podcasts on iHeartRadio