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Speaker 1: Now on the Geviamcskimming case. One of the concrete outcomes

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Speaker 1: from that IPCA report is the new role of the

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Speaker 1: Inspector General of Police which has been established by Judith Collins.

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Speaker 1: It will provide independent oversight, but other than that, very

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Speaker 1: little detail was given. Now, Elizabeth Hall is the co

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Speaker 1: chair of the Defense Lawyers Association and with us Hire. Elizabeth,

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Speaker 1: are you convinced by this as a solution.

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Speaker 2: Look, I think it's a complex problem and anything that's

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Speaker 2: a step in the direction of independence, genuine practical independence

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Speaker 2: oversight is welcomed. I'm not sure i'd call it a solution.

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Speaker 2: Why not, because there are a number of problems that

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Speaker 2: I think have been revealed in the IPCA report and

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Speaker 2: that just are things that we know from common sense,

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Speaker 2: and part of what has been revealed I think as

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Speaker 2: a culture and the culture shift needs to change so

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Speaker 2: that people feel that they can bring concerns forward, so

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Speaker 2: that the police can investigate police officers police misconduct, both

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Speaker 2: within their role is police staff and for police officers

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Speaker 2: that commit misconduct that might amount to crime outside of

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Speaker 2: their role as police officers. And if people aren't in

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Speaker 2: an environment where they feel they can talk about it

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Speaker 2: and they feel that they can raise complaints and that

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Speaker 2: they feel that those complaints will be listened and that

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Speaker 2: they won't have you retribution brought to bear on them,

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Speaker 2: then the information flow isn't going to happen, is it.

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Speaker 2: So absolutely, structural change can be helpful, but it's not

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Speaker 2: a solution on its own.

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Speaker 1: Do you think I mean in this case, would the

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Speaker 1: police officers who were trying to raise concerns and who

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Speaker 1: are a little bit worried about the process and whatnot,

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Speaker 1: would they have raised their concerns with the Inspector General.

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Speaker 2: Well, that's one of the commentators that's been talking in

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Speaker 2: the last couple of days. That's the concern they've raised.

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Speaker 2: Wellf they're not going to raise them in the system

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Speaker 2: structure that there is, why would they raise it in

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Speaker 2: a different system structure? And the press conference with the

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Speaker 2: Attorney General and Mark Mitchell, etcetera. And you know, there

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Speaker 2: was very little detail given about what it actually would

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Speaker 2: look like, who's actually going to be staffing it. And

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Speaker 2: so we have got the IPCA strengthening the IPCA. It

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Speaker 2: is certainly a good step in my view, but whether

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Speaker 2: it makes a real change to outcome, it's difficult to know,

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Speaker 2: but I think, don't we just have to go back

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Speaker 2: to basics and look at, you know, the culture within

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Speaker 2: the police, because we know from what's happened in New

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Speaker 2: Zealand that we have got instances of police misconduct, both

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Speaker 2: within and outside the scope of an officer's duties, both

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Speaker 2: that pose serious risks to public trust and to justice.

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Speaker 2: Elizabeth police officers committed a crime in their private lives

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Speaker 2: and have committed crimes as police officer.

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Speaker 1: I just keep wanting to interrupt you on this and

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Speaker 1: say to you, Okay, we're talking about a culture in

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Speaker 1: the police, but isn't this isn't this something that any

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Speaker 1: one of us could have fallen victim to that We've

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Speaker 1: got a friend, We've got somebody we think is a

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Speaker 1: good sort. They tell us that they've had a bad

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Speaker 1: breakup and the other ones the bunny boiler, and you

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Speaker 1: believe them, and then because it's your mate and you

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Speaker 1: believe them, and so then all you know, you start

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Speaker 1: to see that everything that you see points to that

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Speaker 1: being the case, that's the narrative you believe, and then

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Speaker 1: you try to stop the other person who you believe

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Speaker 1: to be the bad person from actually doing bad things.

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Speaker 1: So couldn't any one of us have like, is this

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Speaker 1: a culture problem? Or is this just a humanity problem?

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Speaker 2: Okay, so, first of all, I think that the conversations

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Speaker 2: is more productive if it's taken outside of the mixgivvings scenario.

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Speaker 2: And I'm certainly happy to make those general you know,

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Speaker 2: provide some general information from my perspective anyway, about what

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Speaker 2: I think is wrong and what I think the solutions

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Speaker 2: could be, because it is just an example that's been

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Speaker 2: brought to the public attention. But it's a bigger and

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Speaker 2: a deeper issue. And that's one of the comments that

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Speaker 2: I've made recently is that police officers are just humans.

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Speaker 2: They are humans who wear iron uniforms but are still

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Speaker 2: subject to all of the foibles of the human character.

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Speaker 2: And so yes, I think to a degree with an egg.

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Speaker 1: Are you still there, Elizabeth? If you can hear me,

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Speaker 1: you've muted yourself, So I need you to unmute yourself.

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Speaker 1: Oh no, do you know what's happened? Can you hear

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Speaker 1: the birds? Can you hear the I can hear the birds,

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Speaker 1: So you know what's happened is somebody's turned on Elizabeth's

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Speaker 1: car or the Bluetooth player or I don't know, open

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Speaker 1: the AirPods container and her call has switched to that. No,

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Speaker 1: don't worry about a bee. That's okay. I will run

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Speaker 1: out of time For more from Hither Duplessy Allen Drive,

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Speaker 1: Listen live to news talks it'd be from four pm weekdays,

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Speaker 1: or follow the podcast on iHeartRadio