1 00:00:07,133 --> 00:00:10,453 Speaker 1: You're listening to the Saturday Morning with Jack team podcast 2 00:00:10,573 --> 00:00:11,413 Speaker 1: from News Talks. 3 00:00:11,453 --> 00:00:16,573 Speaker 2: That'd be Doogle. Sutherland Is is a clinical psychologist from 4 00:00:16,653 --> 00:00:19,453 Speaker 2: Umbrella Well Being. He's with us this morning. Killed a Dougal. 5 00:00:19,813 --> 00:00:21,853 Speaker 3: CID to Jack, I think you almost called me an umbrella. 6 00:00:21,893 --> 00:00:23,813 Speaker 2: Then I know, well I did. I had a new sting. 7 00:00:23,933 --> 00:00:25,933 Speaker 2: I had a new Jack Tame Jack, Dame Jack, tame Jack, 8 00:00:25,973 --> 00:00:28,293 Speaker 2: tame thing. And it put me off a little bit 9 00:00:28,333 --> 00:00:30,253 Speaker 2: to be yeah. 10 00:00:29,613 --> 00:00:34,173 Speaker 3: Yes, but just to you know, your rest your worries. 11 00:00:34,173 --> 00:00:36,053 Speaker 3: I'm not an umbrella. I am still okay. 12 00:00:36,173 --> 00:00:37,053 Speaker 2: That's good. Yeah. 13 00:00:37,053 --> 00:00:37,213 Speaker 3: One. 14 00:00:37,493 --> 00:00:39,653 Speaker 2: In fact, if I was considering you an umbrella, then 15 00:00:39,693 --> 00:00:41,813 Speaker 2: I probably need to see more than the clinical. 16 00:00:43,493 --> 00:00:47,693 Speaker 4: That's there's an interesting, uh psychological condition where people there's 17 00:00:47,973 --> 00:00:49,853 Speaker 4: a classic name for that, or a great name for 18 00:00:49,893 --> 00:00:50,933 Speaker 4: that from an Oliver Sex. 19 00:00:51,853 --> 00:00:54,293 Speaker 2: The man who thought his wife was a hat or something. 20 00:00:54,093 --> 00:00:55,413 Speaker 3: Isn't that's the one. Yeah, that's it. 21 00:00:55,573 --> 00:00:58,853 Speaker 4: Yeah, he couldn't recognize people, So you could, you know, 22 00:00:58,933 --> 00:01:01,133 Speaker 4: conceivably you could recognize me as an umbrella. 23 00:01:01,213 --> 00:01:03,333 Speaker 3: It would be odd anyway. 24 00:01:03,533 --> 00:01:06,053 Speaker 2: Hey, you're thinking, you're you're you're thinking about crime and 25 00:01:06,053 --> 00:01:08,413 Speaker 2: punish this morning or punishment in crime and we're the 26 00:01:08,453 --> 00:01:09,653 Speaker 2: punishment fit the crime. 27 00:01:10,213 --> 00:01:13,533 Speaker 4: Yeah, yeah, absolutely. New research from the US which which 28 00:01:13,573 --> 00:01:14,933 Speaker 4: I found quite intriguing. 29 00:01:14,973 --> 00:01:18,293 Speaker 3: Really, it's called a new. 30 00:01:18,213 --> 00:01:23,693 Speaker 4: Passway for looking at sentences for crimes, at least for 31 00:01:23,773 --> 00:01:26,933 Speaker 4: minor crimes, called creative punishments, and it tries to get 32 00:01:26,973 --> 00:01:30,733 Speaker 4: that balance right between teaching people a lesson with the 33 00:01:30,773 --> 00:01:32,773 Speaker 4: idea that they won't do it again and not being 34 00:01:32,893 --> 00:01:37,213 Speaker 4: so kind of overly harsh that it seems punitive and 35 00:01:37,293 --> 00:01:41,053 Speaker 4: its punishment. And it was made popular in a US 36 00:01:41,813 --> 00:01:43,693 Speaker 4: judge I think, who does quite a lot of these 37 00:01:43,813 --> 00:01:47,773 Speaker 4: who A guy took a taxi rider and failed to 38 00:01:47,813 --> 00:01:50,173 Speaker 4: pay his fear, and so they took him to court 39 00:01:50,173 --> 00:01:51,453 Speaker 4: and they made him pay us fair. But then the 40 00:01:51,533 --> 00:01:54,493 Speaker 4: judge also sentenced him to walk the same distance as 41 00:01:54,533 --> 00:01:57,573 Speaker 4: the taxi ride, just to emphasize what a pain it 42 00:01:57,733 --> 00:02:00,893 Speaker 4: was for the poor taxi driver. So it's kind of 43 00:02:00,933 --> 00:02:04,453 Speaker 4: it's really trying to fit that punishment creatively to the 44 00:02:04,573 --> 00:02:08,813 Speaker 4: crime to help people learn, learn, and hopefully not to 45 00:02:08,813 --> 00:02:09,333 Speaker 4: do it again. 46 00:02:09,733 --> 00:02:12,813 Speaker 2: It's a really American thing, like judges coming up with 47 00:02:12,893 --> 00:02:15,653 Speaker 2: super creative things. I feel like like Judge Judy or 48 00:02:15,693 --> 00:02:17,373 Speaker 2: something like that would be doing I know that she 49 00:02:17,413 --> 00:02:19,133 Speaker 2: does the kind of civil things. But you know what 50 00:02:19,173 --> 00:02:21,733 Speaker 2: I mean, like it's a real you know, you always 51 00:02:21,733 --> 00:02:24,693 Speaker 2: read the stories about a Texas judge who's you know, 52 00:02:24,893 --> 00:02:28,293 Speaker 2: said that someone has to wear a sign around their 53 00:02:28,333 --> 00:02:31,333 Speaker 2: neck and stand on a busy intersection or something like that. 54 00:02:31,373 --> 00:02:33,173 Speaker 2: You know, all those crazy kind of crimes. 55 00:02:33,253 --> 00:02:36,493 Speaker 4: I know, it's another I mean, I think you're right, 56 00:02:36,493 --> 00:02:37,853 Speaker 4: it is a bit of a us thing, but I 57 00:02:37,853 --> 00:02:39,813 Speaker 4: think we could learn from it. I mean, there's there's 58 00:02:40,093 --> 00:02:42,653 Speaker 4: another couple of examples that are like one a woman 59 00:02:42,693 --> 00:02:46,653 Speaker 4: who threw a food at a fast food outlet employee, 60 00:02:46,693 --> 00:02:48,373 Speaker 4: and you know you often see those sort of little 61 00:02:48,413 --> 00:02:51,413 Speaker 4: clips somebody chucks all the food back through the. 62 00:02:51,093 --> 00:02:52,333 Speaker 3: Through the drive through window. 63 00:02:52,373 --> 00:02:55,333 Speaker 4: Well, she was sentenced to having to work sixty days 64 00:02:55,333 --> 00:02:56,413 Speaker 4: in the fast food. 65 00:02:56,173 --> 00:02:59,613 Speaker 3: Restaurant for no pay, just to experience it herself. 66 00:02:59,893 --> 00:03:03,933 Speaker 4: Or an easy one, somebody group vandalizing a public statue 67 00:03:03,933 --> 00:03:06,253 Speaker 4: had to then clean the statue, which which you know, 68 00:03:06,613 --> 00:03:08,373 Speaker 4: there's a real kind of natural consequence. 69 00:03:08,733 --> 00:03:10,933 Speaker 3: Even in workplaces, they've used at. 70 00:03:10,973 --> 00:03:15,253 Speaker 4: Somebody who abused not not physically but verbally sort of 71 00:03:15,773 --> 00:03:18,453 Speaker 4: abused one of their workmates rather than sort of getting 72 00:03:19,093 --> 00:03:21,653 Speaker 4: some sort of final warning or getting dismissed. They had 73 00:03:21,653 --> 00:03:24,133 Speaker 4: to go and work in a part of the part 74 00:03:24,133 --> 00:03:27,053 Speaker 4: of the business which was involved in customer services where 75 00:03:27,053 --> 00:03:29,573 Speaker 4: they have to receive a lot of complaints and verbal 76 00:03:29,613 --> 00:03:33,173 Speaker 4: abuse from the public. So I kind of like that 77 00:03:33,333 --> 00:03:36,053 Speaker 4: matching of it, that sense that actually this is proportionate 78 00:03:36,093 --> 00:03:38,613 Speaker 4: to the crime and might help you learn from it. 79 00:03:38,773 --> 00:03:41,773 Speaker 2: So what are the kind of key features of what 80 00:03:41,853 --> 00:03:43,613 Speaker 2: could be deemed a creative punishment? 81 00:03:43,653 --> 00:03:46,573 Speaker 4: Then, yeah, so that there are three kind of key 82 00:03:46,693 --> 00:03:50,293 Speaker 4: features verstically that the punishment has to be related to 83 00:03:50,373 --> 00:03:53,173 Speaker 4: the harm caused, and that's different. You know, when we 84 00:03:53,213 --> 00:03:56,253 Speaker 4: send people to prison, by and large, they're not going 85 00:03:56,253 --> 00:04:00,213 Speaker 4: to prison because they have imprisoned somebody themselves largely. 86 00:04:00,253 --> 00:04:02,293 Speaker 3: So that so prison or whatever, even. 87 00:04:02,173 --> 00:04:05,373 Speaker 4: A fine is usually completely unrelated. But these are specifically 88 00:04:06,173 --> 00:04:08,613 Speaker 4: or are related to the crime. So you know, an 89 00:04:08,653 --> 00:04:11,253 Speaker 4: easy example, you've graffited a statue, so you clean the 90 00:04:11,293 --> 00:04:15,453 Speaker 4: statue and it is specifically matched to the crime. So 91 00:04:15,493 --> 00:04:18,453 Speaker 4: it's not like, you know, okay, for this sort of crime, 92 00:04:18,493 --> 00:04:20,133 Speaker 4: you either get three months in prison or a ten 93 00:04:20,173 --> 00:04:22,773 Speaker 4: thousand dollars fine, which is just a blanket one. These 94 00:04:22,773 --> 00:04:26,373 Speaker 4: are specifically matched and it does have the goal about 95 00:04:26,973 --> 00:04:31,213 Speaker 4: helping people understand the errors of their ways, so to speak, 96 00:04:31,253 --> 00:04:33,653 Speaker 4: with the idea that they won't do it again, which 97 00:04:33,693 --> 00:04:36,333 Speaker 4: is ultimately, I guess, or part of at least why 98 00:04:36,333 --> 00:04:38,133 Speaker 4: we have punishment. It's not the whole reason, but part 99 00:04:38,173 --> 00:04:40,173 Speaker 4: of why we have a punishment is so we don't 100 00:04:40,173 --> 00:04:42,173 Speaker 4: want people to do the same thing again. So it's 101 00:04:42,213 --> 00:04:45,813 Speaker 4: those three criteria related to the harm specifically matched and 102 00:04:45,973 --> 00:04:47,573 Speaker 4: understanding why the behavior was wrong. 103 00:04:47,733 --> 00:04:49,693 Speaker 2: Yeah, and you can see how so to take that 104 00:04:49,733 --> 00:04:52,373 Speaker 2: fast food to put the woman who threw food back 105 00:04:52,413 --> 00:04:54,653 Speaker 2: through the window and the fast food outlet and there 106 00:04:54,653 --> 00:04:58,013 Speaker 2: were sentenced to work there for sixty days. I mean, yep, 107 00:04:58,053 --> 00:05:00,533 Speaker 2: it's matched to the crime. So it's a fast food 108 00:05:00,533 --> 00:05:04,493 Speaker 2: and fast food and the punishment involved doing something related 109 00:05:04,533 --> 00:05:05,333 Speaker 2: to the harm caused. 110 00:05:05,413 --> 00:05:05,573 Speaker 3: Yep. 111 00:05:05,973 --> 00:05:08,253 Speaker 2: And then final one, it actually would helped her to 112 00:05:08,333 --> 00:05:11,173 Speaker 2: understand have a bit more empathy for someone earning nine 113 00:05:11,213 --> 00:05:14,173 Speaker 2: dollars fifty an hour working at a fast restaurant, like, 114 00:05:14,733 --> 00:05:16,293 Speaker 2: how can we make your day worse while we can 115 00:05:16,333 --> 00:05:17,773 Speaker 2: someone's going to throw a burger back in your face? 116 00:05:17,853 --> 00:05:20,453 Speaker 4: Yeah yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, So that's that, I mean, 117 00:05:20,453 --> 00:05:22,813 Speaker 4: that's the idea, and you know, we can only hope 118 00:05:22,813 --> 00:05:26,013 Speaker 4: that it works to change people's minds, which yeah, for sure, 119 00:05:26,053 --> 00:05:29,613 Speaker 4: but that's that's the goal, which which which I can't 120 00:05:29,933 --> 00:05:30,413 Speaker 4: something about. 121 00:05:30,413 --> 00:05:31,213 Speaker 3: It really appealed to me. 122 00:05:31,893 --> 00:05:33,493 Speaker 2: It appeals to me as well. I think it appeals 123 00:05:33,493 --> 00:05:36,293 Speaker 2: toward us. And so you can imagine though that there 124 00:05:36,293 --> 00:05:39,773 Speaker 2: are certain, you know, scenarios in which it's appropriate. Right, 125 00:05:39,813 --> 00:05:43,213 Speaker 2: so for really serious criminal offensing finding, obviously it's not 126 00:05:43,213 --> 00:05:44,013 Speaker 2: going to be appropriate. 127 00:05:44,133 --> 00:05:45,973 Speaker 4: But no, no, no, what about a parent? 128 00:05:47,053 --> 00:05:49,413 Speaker 3: Yeah, yeah, yeah, I thought of that that I was 129 00:05:49,453 --> 00:05:49,773 Speaker 3: reading it. 130 00:05:49,893 --> 00:05:52,173 Speaker 4: I thought, you know, what a lot of parents will have. 131 00:05:52,533 --> 00:05:54,893 Speaker 4: And I've done a go in my career. I've done 132 00:05:54,933 --> 00:05:57,373 Speaker 4: a few of the old parenting programs and working with 133 00:05:57,493 --> 00:06:00,293 Speaker 4: parents and and often when if you can come up, 134 00:06:00,533 --> 00:06:02,093 Speaker 4: I think in parenting we often call it kind of 135 00:06:02,173 --> 00:06:06,773 Speaker 4: natural consequences or logical consequences. So if you playing with 136 00:06:06,933 --> 00:06:09,213 Speaker 4: a toy, you know, child's playing with a toy that 137 00:06:09,253 --> 00:06:11,413 Speaker 4: belongs to their brother or sister and they break it, 138 00:06:11,813 --> 00:06:14,813 Speaker 4: well they have to then obviously apologize, but then they 139 00:06:14,813 --> 00:06:18,053 Speaker 4: have to actually replace the toy, perhaps out of their 140 00:06:18,093 --> 00:06:19,773 Speaker 4: own money, and that there's a real. 141 00:06:19,693 --> 00:06:22,613 Speaker 3: Logical sense of, hey, this is a cost to the you. 142 00:06:22,573 --> 00:06:25,213 Speaker 4: Know, there's a financial cost, obviously, but this is a cost, 143 00:06:25,213 --> 00:06:26,493 Speaker 4: and it is annoying. 144 00:06:26,093 --> 00:06:27,573 Speaker 3: For you, and you have to go out of your 145 00:06:27,573 --> 00:06:28,493 Speaker 3: way and. 146 00:06:28,533 --> 00:06:31,373 Speaker 4: Hopefully you learn actually just just to be a little 147 00:06:31,373 --> 00:06:34,693 Speaker 4: bit more careful next time, because you know, you've you've 148 00:06:34,773 --> 00:06:38,453 Speaker 4: learned the real world consequences I guess of of of 149 00:06:38,653 --> 00:06:41,933 Speaker 4: your actions and and I'm sure many parents will have 150 00:06:42,053 --> 00:06:43,933 Speaker 4: used those sorts of text neiques as well, and it's 151 00:06:44,013 --> 00:06:47,533 Speaker 4: just perhaps extending that up into adultthood. 152 00:06:47,013 --> 00:06:47,573 Speaker 3: A little bit too. 153 00:06:47,693 --> 00:06:49,693 Speaker 2: Oh, it's so good. Hey, thank you for bringing our 154 00:06:49,733 --> 00:06:51,613 Speaker 2: attention to the research. It really is interesting. 155 00:06:52,253 --> 00:06:52,613 Speaker 3: Thanks us. 156 00:06:52,693 --> 00:06:54,733 Speaker 2: Remind me of those good old TV shows though, you know, 157 00:06:54,933 --> 00:06:57,653 Speaker 2: the judge duties and things you know, like this just 158 00:06:58,013 --> 00:07:00,453 Speaker 2: sometimes you know, America just does it best. And when 159 00:07:00,493 --> 00:07:02,933 Speaker 2: it comes to creative punishments, I reckon that's the place 160 00:07:02,933 --> 00:07:07,493 Speaker 2: to be. Thanks Google, Google. Umbra Doogle is not an umbrella. 161 00:07:07,653 --> 00:07:10,533 Speaker 2: Dougosovans a clinical psychologists from Umbrella Wellbeing. 162 00:07:11,173 --> 00:07:14,293 Speaker 1: For more from Saturday Morning with Jack Tame, Listen live 163 00:07:14,373 --> 00:07:17,213 Speaker 1: to News Talks d B from nine am Saturday, or 164 00:07:17,253 --> 00:07:19,173 Speaker 1: follow the podcast on iHeartRadio.