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Speaker 1: You're listening to a podcast from news talks it B.

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Speaker 1: Follow this and our wide range of podcasts now on iHeartRadio.

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Speaker 1: It's time for all the attitude, all the opinion, all

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Speaker 1: the information, all the debates of the now the Leyton

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Speaker 1: Smith Podcast powered by news talks it B.

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Speaker 2: Welcome to what we like to call the best of

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Speaker 2: the Laton Smith Podcast, where through the summer weeks, when

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Speaker 2: so many of us are taking well deserved breaks, we

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Speaker 2: replay a few of the year's podcasts that have been

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Speaker 2: selected by a committee of one for various reasons. So

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Speaker 2: for the December seventeen week leading into Christmas, we take

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Speaker 2: you back to April of this year and law Professor

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Speaker 2: James Allen, law professor Professor of Law if you like,

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Speaker 2: at the University of Queensland and the subject of law fare. Well,

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Speaker 2: that subject is getting plenty of attention. Basically, it represents

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Speaker 2: the corruption that's becoming more widespread in the court rooms

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Speaker 2: of the Western world. Judicial activism and the politicization of

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Speaker 2: the law and legal system makes for a duo of

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Speaker 2: issues that need addressing by the legislatures of countries which

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Speaker 2: are the targets of the misuse of such activities. In

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Speaker 2: what we think is a very productive discussion on a

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Speaker 2: number of current democracy headwinds, Professor James Allen is arguably

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Speaker 2: better than ever now. If you've not heard this podcast before,

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Speaker 2: there is much to learn. And as I've noted on

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Speaker 2: numerous occasions over the years, listening a second or even

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Speaker 2: a third time to some podcasts, you always pick up

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Speaker 2: something that you missed on the first story, even the

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Speaker 2: second time around. So I trust you'll enjoy and we'll

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Speaker 2: see you at the other end. The Age of Foolishness

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Speaker 2: A Doubter's Guide to Constitutionalism in a Modern Democracy by

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Speaker 2: j Allen, Published in twenty twenty two, The Age of

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Speaker 2: Foolishness is a doubter's guide to current loyally thinking about

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Speaker 2: all things related to constitutionalism in a democracy. This book

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Speaker 2: offers a thorough going skeptical critique of the views that

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Speaker 2: dominate our legal cast, including in law schools and among judges,

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Speaker 2: and placed too much weight on judges to resolve important

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Speaker 2: social policy disputes and too little on democratic politics. The

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Speaker 2: author argues that politics matters in a way that our

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Speaker 2: legal orthodoxy often downplays, and that author, of course, is

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Speaker 2: one James Allen, who we are all familiar with. He

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Speaker 2: needs no more introduction than that. But I have never

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Speaker 2: bought the book or got it. I didn't know it

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Speaker 2: existed until very recently. Welcome back to the podcast. Is

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Speaker 2: it a book I should read?

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Speaker 3: Well, I'd say things have only gotten worse since I

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Speaker 3: wrote it in twenty twenty two.

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Speaker 2: Well that should have been my real question.

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Speaker 3: Actually, I know, you just have to look at what's

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Speaker 3: happened in the US. They tried to knock out the

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Speaker 3: leading opposition figure through what I think are incredibly weak cases,

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Speaker 3: and then what's happening in Romania and knocking out the

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Speaker 3: main opposition person in France. I mean it's not good.

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Speaker 3: Of course, you know, no one makes money from writing

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Speaker 3: academic books, so I'm not going to get rich out

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Speaker 3: of the book. But sure, go ahead and buy it.

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Speaker 3: My mum will be happy.

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Speaker 2: I will buy it, as ask her if she would

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Speaker 2: sign it for me please. I could call this almost

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Speaker 2: if I was giving her the title This discussion assault

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Speaker 2: on almost everything legal, because it seems to be happening

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Speaker 2: everywhere from all sorts of levels and angles. How right

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Speaker 2: am I?

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Speaker 3: Yes, I think there's a lot to that. I mean,

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Speaker 3: there's just a I mean I'm a sort of right

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Speaker 3: a center person working in the university. There are very

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Speaker 3: very few of us, so we see what's happening early

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Speaker 3: and the sort of sustained. I think it's politics, but

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Speaker 3: let's call it cultural worldview that is being imposed on people,

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Speaker 3: so to some extent, not about educating anymore as much

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Speaker 3: as indoctrinating. I mean when I went to university in

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Speaker 3: Canada in the eighties. Of course, the majority of professors

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Speaker 3: back then were left leaning way a smaller percentage and

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Speaker 3: now by a lot, but they were. But they had

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Speaker 3: that old fashioned view that anyone should be able to

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Speaker 3: hear both sides of the argument, and you could write

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Speaker 3: a good argument up and get a good mark. And

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Speaker 3: in some ways that has gone. You know, the universities

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Speaker 3: will tell you it hasn't gone. But you discuss any

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Speaker 3: student who's actually in the universities right now, there's an

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Speaker 3: incredible level of self censorship. If you're a junior academic

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Speaker 3: and you're on the right side of the right side

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Speaker 3: of the political spectrum, many of them have to be

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Speaker 3: quiet if they want to get promoted. It's not a

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Speaker 3: very friendly place. You can give lots of examples. So

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Speaker 3: we see these things coming before the rest of society.

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Speaker 3: I'm actually quite buoyed by the fact that President Trump

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Speaker 3: went back in November. He's actually doing things. He's ending

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Speaker 3: all the DEI, which is very maligned. It's just a

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Speaker 3: form of affirmative action. And he's he's calling out the

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Speaker 3: lunacy of of some of the transgender movement, letting men

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Speaker 3: play in women's sports, so and he and and so

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Speaker 3: he's getting rid of that. And you know, putting men

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Speaker 3: who claim to be women in women's prisons even when

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Speaker 3: they're rapist. I mean, some of these things just make

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Speaker 3: you laugh loud. You can't satirize them. So I feel

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Speaker 3: good about that. And uh, you know, I know the

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Speaker 3: preponderance of people, even on the right side of politics

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Speaker 3: outside the US, just can't stand the man. But I

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Speaker 3: think he's doing an awful lot of good things. Well.

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Speaker 2: At the moment, things are in a bit of turmoil.

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Speaker 2: So I'm saying, you've raised it, and we might well

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Speaker 2: revisit it. But as far as tarifs are concerned, are

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Speaker 2: you even just a little nervous?

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Speaker 3: Well, I used to teach wto I understand comparative advantage

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Speaker 3: and free trade does up wealth, but the simple fact

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Speaker 3: is that something like ten percent of the wealthiest Americans

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Speaker 3: own somewhere between ninety and ninety three percent of stock

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Speaker 3: market wealth. The next wealthiest forty percent. So from ten

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Speaker 3: to fifty they own the remaining nine ten percent, and

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Speaker 3: fifty percent of Americans own nothing on the stock market.

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Speaker 3: They have debts, they have credit card. Since Trump came

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Speaker 3: in the first time in twenty sixteen, so beginning of

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Speaker 3: twenty seventeen until yesterday, so including the stock market falls

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Speaker 3: we've seen, the stock market has gone up one hundred percent.

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Speaker 3: If you look at American productivity over the last fifty years,

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Speaker 3: it's gone up about it's about doubled in the last

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Speaker 3: fifty years. Now in Australia and New Zealand, we'd chew

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Speaker 3: off our right arms to get that kind of productivity growth.

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Speaker 2: We'd like we'd like'd like it any productivity growth, any exactly.

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Speaker 3: So they've had about in over the last half century,

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Speaker 3: they've had about a doubling of productivity, but wages have

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Speaker 3: only gone up. And this is off the top of

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Speaker 3: my head of about thirty five percent. So the people

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Speaker 3: who are screaming blue murder, and I'm a conservative, but

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Speaker 3: come on, the people who are screaming blue murder have

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Speaker 3: big assets, They have big investments in the stock market.

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Speaker 3: They're used to seeing it doubled every seven or eight years.

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Speaker 3: And you cannot deny that the globalization has led to

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Speaker 3: working class people losing factories, losing highly paid jobs, not

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Speaker 3: seeing wages go up. And those are the people who've

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Speaker 3: it for Trump, and why he should care about the

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Speaker 3: sort of soup comparatively rich top ten percent. Now, obviously

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Speaker 3: everyone is affected by the stock market, but wealthy people

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Speaker 3: are affected by it a lot more. And it's no

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Speaker 3: easy task to try to get try to restructure the

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Speaker 3: world economy, which right now outsources so many things, so

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Speaker 3: many manufacturing jobs to China, and then we borrow money,

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Speaker 3: as Trump's Treasury secretary said, who's a smart guy. And

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Speaker 3: then we're borrowing money from these Chinese peasants so he

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Speaker 3: can buy stuff they make. Yes, yes, you know goods

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Speaker 3: are cheaper on this, But there's lots of things in

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Speaker 3: life that are more important than money. I mean, I've

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Speaker 3: got a piece of the Spectator coming out this week.

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Speaker 3: There's a lot of things I'd take a mass. I

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Speaker 3: would take a pretty hefty pay cut if I could

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Speaker 3: have a few more conservative colleagues in my law school,

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Speaker 3: or if we could get rid of DEI completely from

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Speaker 3: the universities, I could give you five or six things

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Speaker 3: where I would take a big pay cut, because money

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Speaker 3: is not everything. Sure, if you're going to be impoverished,

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Speaker 3: it matters, But if it's a five or ten percent

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Speaker 3: cut to get you know, higher wages for people who

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Speaker 3: have jobs that give them a bit of you know,

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Speaker 3: self respect, well that's what Trump's trying to do. You might

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Speaker 3: not agree with that. You might think that comparative advantage

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Speaker 3: is everything and all that matters is getting you know,

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Speaker 3: slightly cheaper goods. But the problem is on that theory,

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Speaker 3: as I always used to teach it, what happens then

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Speaker 3: is you take that wealth and then you redistribute it

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Speaker 3: to the losers, because people lose in free trade. And

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Speaker 3: what pretty blatantly obviously is we're not redistributing the wealth.

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Speaker 3: And you don't want to do it through government programs,

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Speaker 3: and you don't want to do it through a big bureaucracy.

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Speaker 3: You'd like people to have jobs where they just made

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Speaker 3: enough money that they had half decent. And so you know,

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Speaker 3: I'm if I were Trump, I would be doing it

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Speaker 3: in a different tone. I'd be saying, you know, I

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Speaker 3: don't want to do this, but reci property because leave

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Speaker 3: aside New Zealand and Australia because we are sort of

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Speaker 3: clean hands at this and Trump's terrorifts really don't make

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Speaker 3: any sense. But the EU runs much bigger trade blocks

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Speaker 3: on the US, and the US runs on them higher terraffs.

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Speaker 3: They make it impossible to import agricultural goods so they

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Speaker 3: can have you know, French farms the size of your toilet,

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Speaker 3: and so you know, no one, no one really can

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Speaker 3: say that the EU has smaller terraffs on the US

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Speaker 3: than the US has on them. And this sort of

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Speaker 3: talk by the EU commissioned that they'd be happy with

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Speaker 3: zero terriffs on manufactured goods, but the whole point is

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Speaker 3: they specifically won't do that on agricultural goods, and New

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Speaker 3: Zealand was one of the biggest losers. I mean, we

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Speaker 3: all know that the EU are thugs when it comes

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Speaker 3: to agricultural trade, and so I have I have some

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Speaker 3: sympathy with Trump. He's not elected to help the rest

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Speaker 3: of the world. I don't know Australia got a ten

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Speaker 3: percent tariff. I don't know what you guys got probably

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Speaker 3: the same. Yeah, So that's at the bottom of anything.

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Speaker 2: And you know what, you want to know what our biggest,

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Speaker 2: biggest expote is the moment red late red meat.

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Speaker 3: Yeah yeah, I mean, here's the problem. If you take tariffs,

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Speaker 3: American tariffs, and how they affect our economies, and you

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Speaker 3: compare that to how this bizarre religious like pursuit of

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Speaker 3: net zero affects the economy, the net zero is way

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Speaker 3: more crippling. If we got rid of net zero tomorrow

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Speaker 3: both countries, we would be wealthier. Who cares about the tariffs?

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Speaker 3: I mean, our electricity costs in Australia are about three

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Speaker 3: or four times what they are in some US states,

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Speaker 3: and we have the world's highest minimum wage, and we

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Speaker 3: have a labor relations system news you don't get rid

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Speaker 3: of it in the early eighties, late seventies, it's completely bizarre.

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Speaker 3: You get these two bit third party pseudo judge types

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Speaker 3: dictating the terms of employment contracts, and so why would

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Speaker 3: anyone invest in Australia. Then you've got red tape, you've

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Speaker 3: got green tape, you've got now black tape, which is

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Speaker 3: the word for you know, indigenous Aboriginal leaders groups basically

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Speaker 3: rent seeking and blocking projects unless you pay a sort

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Speaker 3: of fee, So why would anyone invest in these countries.

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Speaker 3: I don't have any worries about the US economy. I mean,

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Speaker 3: it's true that terrorists are going to hurt for a while,

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Speaker 3: but you know, the stock market today is back to

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Speaker 3: where it was what about a year ago, and it

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Speaker 3: doubled in the last eight years, so there's probably a

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Speaker 3: little overvalue. I mean, I don't think it's Trump's job

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Speaker 3: to look out for the rest of the for all,

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Speaker 3: it's our job, and we're doing a lousy I mean Australia.

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Speaker 3: Australia has run seven quarters of GDP per capital decline,

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Speaker 3: and that's not because of mister Trump. It's because of

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Speaker 3: both parties in Australia, and to a large extent, it's

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Speaker 3: due to the idiotic response to COVID.

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Speaker 2: You got it in one You and I are on

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Speaker 2: exactly the same We're rowing the same bite with regard

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Speaker 2: to the fact that it's it's not Trump's duty need

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Speaker 2: to look after the rest of the world and or

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Speaker 2: America's for that, and it's got this way. I think

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Speaker 2: through vice and corruption, there's been so much there's been

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Speaker 2: so much going down behind the scenes. There have been

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Speaker 2: so many people who have including senior politicians in America,

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Speaker 2: who've been making fortunes out of the inside information, et cetera,

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Speaker 2: that it's time that something was done about them and

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Speaker 2: about the state that the Americans find themselves in overall

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Speaker 2: at the abuse end of much of the rest of

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Speaker 2: the world.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, at the end of World War Two, it made

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Speaker 3: sense for the Americans to be a market for all

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Speaker 3: of Europe and get them back on their feet. But today,

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Speaker 3: let's be honest, most of Europe spends almost nothing on defense,

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Speaker 3: and they know that the Americans are going to defend them,

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Speaker 3: and so that's a massive implicit tax on some poor

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Speaker 3: schmuck in Arkansas. And they also run higher sort of

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Speaker 3: restraints on trade than the Americans do. Germany just makes stuff,

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Speaker 3: and they make it really well and they export it out,

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Speaker 3: but there's all sorts of blocks again on agriculture, especially

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Speaker 3: that that is pretty hard to descend. So the EU,

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Speaker 3: I don't think has any hope in the trade war

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Speaker 3: against If they get into a trade war against the Americans,

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Speaker 3: the party that runs the surplus almost always loses, And

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Speaker 3: since they have a pretty hefty surplus with the US

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Speaker 3: on trade, and again that's the wrong way of looking

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Speaker 3: at it unless there's a trade war. But you can't

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Speaker 3: win if you're the party running a big surplus. I mean,

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Speaker 3: I think Trump could cripple the Europeans and overnight just

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Speaker 3: by seeing that there'll be a four tariff on French

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Speaker 3: wine and German cars. I don't know what that would

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Speaker 3: be the end for Germany and really bad for France.

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Speaker 3: So I don't know why they're doing that.

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Speaker 2: I think only a non drinker could pass pass a

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Speaker 2: tariff like that on French wine.

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Speaker 3: I have started to like the big Californian chardonnaise, like

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Speaker 3: the big buttery, oaky ones, and you guys make this

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Speaker 3: phenomenal pino noirs. I could live without French wine.

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Speaker 2: Well, I've promised you a bottle of my pino o

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Speaker 2: for ages, but I've still got it. Look, you you

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Speaker 2: mentioned so many things in that little tirade that I've

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Speaker 2: got multiple choices. Let me start with Now, let me

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Speaker 2: just say, first of all, what triggered the call for

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Speaker 2: you to do the podcast? Whilst the Tea Kung and

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Speaker 2: Mary nonsense that's going on in this country at the moment,

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Speaker 2: and the judiciary. But the judiciary has has the cause

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Speaker 2: in common with the Australian judiciary, the American judiciary, the

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Speaker 2: French judiciary. So it's a it's almost a universal a

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Speaker 2: universal subject. But let's start with Australia because it's caught

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Speaker 2: my attention over the last couple of days. Macquarie Law School,

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Speaker 2: for instance, has been in the news for a for

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Speaker 2: a little bit, imposing imposing ideology in its in its classes.

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Speaker 2: Then over this weekend you've got the story of the

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Speaker 2: radical lefts much through the institutions, written by Janet Albertson.

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Speaker 2: And that's one of a couple of pieces that she's

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Speaker 2: written in The Australian that are simple, that are almost

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Speaker 2: must reading. And then we get to doctor Danny Linda,

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Speaker 2: to whom you are very close.

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Speaker 3: Well, she's in my lascoal, but she's new. So here's

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Speaker 3: the thing.

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Speaker 2: I meant, I meant, I meant physically close, not anything.

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Speaker 3: Oh yeah, physically close. Yes, yeah, yeah, she's and to

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Speaker 3: some extent I know that some of her comments were

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Speaker 3: taken out of context, but leave her aside, let me

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Speaker 3: comment on the other ones. So there has been this

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Speaker 3: move in the last twenty years, and it's often by

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Speaker 3: hard left sort of people who had had sort of

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Speaker 3: Marxist type views about the world. You know, Marxism effectively

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Speaker 3: you reduce everything into the view that there's a struggle

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Speaker 3: for resources, and then you get sort of romantic about

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Speaker 3: the working class and the proletariat. I just have to

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Speaker 3: teach that stuff in Hong Kong. Well, these days old

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Speaker 3: fashioned Marxists are the best sort of lefties because they're

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Speaker 3: actually open to other people having different views. So these

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Speaker 3: days it all seems to creep out in these sort

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Speaker 3: of weird forms. In Australia, they're talking about indigenizing the curriculum,

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Speaker 3: and it's roughly similar in the zeal What does that

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Speaker 3: even mean? I mean, why would you take a curriculum

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Speaker 3: if you're saying a law school do we want to

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Speaker 3: have a dispute resolution process that mimics what happened in

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Speaker 3: a hunter gatherer society. I don't. And when you try

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Speaker 3: to ask for details, like what does it mean to

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Speaker 3: indigenize the culture? What does it mean to throw around

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Speaker 3: these these words in the Maori or some sort of

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Speaker 3: Aboriginal language, it always ends up sort of being an

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Speaker 3: attempt to say, well, we have to respect called your

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Speaker 3: X And the answer to that is, well, some things

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Speaker 3: we might respect and some things we don't. I mean,

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Speaker 3: I'm not going to respect dispute resolution process that involves

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Speaker 3: to king of spear in somebody. I mean, what are

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Speaker 3: we at? Where are the specifics? And they can't give

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Speaker 3: you specific because then when the courts do it, it

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Speaker 3: seems to me it's always this sort of vehicle for

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Speaker 3: imposing political outcomes. They're always left wing. I mean, do

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Speaker 3: you have a pretty imperial judiciary in New Zealand right

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Speaker 3: now and they never impose things that the conservative side

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Speaker 3: of politics likes. They use that Peter Ellis case disgracefully

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Speaker 3: because that was a disgrace. How we talked about this before,

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Speaker 3: but what happened to Peter Ellis was one of the

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Speaker 3: great disgraces. And after he was dead, the judges who

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Speaker 3: caused the problem, they were the problem with basically convicting

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Speaker 3: an innocent person, and finally they gave him a posthumous pardon.

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Speaker 3: Big deal. What good does that do him? What good

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Speaker 3: does that do his mother? They both died with no

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Speaker 3: pardon and no recognition. They should have never been convicted.

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Speaker 3: But they use that vehicle to just bring in this

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Speaker 3: Mallori idea that wasn't needed to give them the pardon

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Speaker 3: and to decide for them. And I mean, it's not

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Speaker 3: even clear. It's so much uncertainty and nobody knows where

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Speaker 3: the law is coming from, and effectively undermines the long established,

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Speaker 3: old fashioned notion of the rule of law. And it

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Speaker 3: basically you're left with people saying, well, you have to

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Speaker 3: trust the judges. I don't trust the judges. I don't

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Speaker 3: trust them at all. I mean and so, and they've

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Speaker 3: done some things that are just it just looks like

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Speaker 3: they're not bound by any past ideas of constraint. And

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Speaker 3: so when people talk about and digitizing the culture or

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Speaker 3: digitalizing the curriculum, you have to ask what do you ask?

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Speaker 3: What are you asking us to do? And it does

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Speaker 3: seem a highly political enterprise in the universe. These they

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Speaker 3: say you can be open minded, and they say you

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Speaker 3: don't have to agree, And this is a sort of

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Speaker 3: response you're getting in New Zealand. You don't have to agree.

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Speaker 3: You just have to be aware of these things and

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Speaker 3: you have to show a little bit of respect. But

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Speaker 3: you know, why should people show there's some elements of

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Speaker 3: every culture you're going to like and there's some elements

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Speaker 3: you're not going to like, and everyone's going to be different.

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Speaker 3: It shouldn't be the job of a law society or

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Speaker 3: a university or a government to tell people what they

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Speaker 3: need to respect or not respect. It sort of undermines

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Speaker 3: liberal democracy and it's very hard to argue against it

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Speaker 3: in the universe. I can do it because I've got

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Speaker 3: a chair and i'm you know, I've worked long enough

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Speaker 3: that I've got fu money. I was sort of like

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Speaker 3: that anyway. I've just got that temperament. But if you

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Speaker 3: have kids, or a house or a mortgage, these universities

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Speaker 3: are not friendly places to those kind of people who

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Speaker 3: want to speak out. They might not fire you, but

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Speaker 3: they'll definitely make promotions harder, and they'll make it your

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Speaker 3: life difficult. And so will tend to self censor. Students

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Speaker 3: learn to self censor and sorry. And that's when you

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Speaker 3: finished by saying, and it's not as though there's any

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Speaker 3: symmetry here. It's an asymmetrical game because no one says

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Speaker 3: we have to respect Western culture. You know, the culture

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Speaker 3: that gave us antibiotics and jet airplanes and the rule

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Speaker 3: of law, and you know, cross examination and trials and

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Speaker 3: Shakespeare and you know Churchill. If anything, they don't respect that.

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Speaker 3: So it's this weird situation where you sort of hate

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Speaker 3: the culture that's delivered you the best places to live

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Speaker 3: on earth. And then you wonder why. Douglas Murray says,

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Speaker 3: the polls are showing eighteen percent of young people would

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Speaker 3: be prepared to defend their own country. That's in the US,

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Speaker 3: that's in Britain. I'm sure it's the same in New

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Speaker 3: Zealand and Australia. Well, why would they defend their own

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Speaker 3: country when you've spent eleven years telling them at school

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Speaker 3: that their culture is terrible, which it's not. It's self

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Speaker 3: evidently one of the best cultures ever to have arisen,

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Speaker 3: not to say it's perfect. And so you know, the

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Speaker 3: whole thing is asymmetrical. It's I think of this book

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Speaker 3: that a guy are great. He's a lefty but smart

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Speaker 3: and he likes to beate. His name is Stephen Pinker.

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Speaker 3: Twenty odd years ago he wrote a book called The

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Speaker 3: Blank Slate, The Noble Savage and the Ghost and the Machine,

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Speaker 3: just taking on three ideas that are wrong. The Blank

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Speaker 3: Slate is the idea that you're born as sort of

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Speaker 3: an open book that you can just do whatever you

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Speaker 3: want to be and evolution has it hardwired things into

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Speaker 3: you and it's just wrong. And that's the sort of

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Speaker 3: basis we get people saying things like, oh, I was

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Speaker 3: born in the wrong body. It's not even a sensible

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Speaker 3: claim to make when you think about it. What does

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Speaker 3: it mean you're born in the wrong body? And what

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Speaker 3: does it mean that you can just sort of stand

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Speaker 3: outside of the facts that are imposed on the world

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Speaker 3: that you have you know, X y chromosomes, trillions of

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Speaker 3: them all through your body, and you can just announce

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Speaker 3: you're going to be a woman. You know, I'm sixty five.

401
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Speaker 3: If I just said no, you know what, I feel like,

402
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Speaker 3: I'm a seven year old. I want to go seven

403
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Speaker 3: year old sports. I think I could still dominate in

404
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Speaker 3: seven year old sports. I'm not sure anymore, but you know,

405
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Speaker 3: we'd all go, you're crazy. There's a fact about the world.

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Speaker 3: And so you know, for me that transgender stuff is not.

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Speaker 3: I don't care what people wear or how they want

408
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Speaker 3: to live, but you can't play you can't play girls sports.

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Speaker 3: It's got such a big advantage. So yeah, that's right.

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Speaker 3: And the Noble Savage was the idea and he lampoons.

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Speaker 3: This is the idea that hunter gatherer societies were these idyllic,

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Speaker 3: utopian places where everyone got along. And we know for

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Speaker 3: a fact that a third to a half of men

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Speaker 3: die violently in hunter gathered because they're competing for resources,

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Speaker 3: and women get regularly raped and brutalized, and nobody wants

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Speaker 3: to live in the hunter gatherer societies can if you

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Speaker 3: can experience a sort of western welfare state, why would you?

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Speaker 3: And you know that's not a criticism, that's just a

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Speaker 3: fact about the world, and the idea that there's some

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Speaker 3: sort of you know, the environment is destroyed in hunter

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Speaker 3: gather or society is because you're every day waking up

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Speaker 3: trying to get enough food to eat. So who can

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Speaker 3: blame people for destroying the environment. But again you get

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Speaker 3: these weird romantic notions of the past. The other one

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Speaker 3: about the ghost and the machine is this idea that

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Speaker 3: somehow there's a you that's separate from your brain. And

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Speaker 3: you know, I know that some religious people think that.

428
00:24:29,013 --> 00:24:32,013
Speaker 3: I don't. I think Pinker's right, but you know that

429
00:24:32,293 --> 00:24:34,613
Speaker 3: the pretty powerful book, and it explains a lot of

430
00:24:34,653 --> 00:24:38,253
Speaker 3: the craziness. It's people who they say they're the Party

431
00:24:38,293 --> 00:24:41,573
Speaker 3: of science. But the left isn't really you can't support

432
00:24:41,813 --> 00:24:44,493
Speaker 3: much of the transgender sort of claims and be the

433
00:24:44,533 --> 00:24:50,213
Speaker 3: party of science, and you can't really talk about some

434
00:24:50,253 --> 00:24:54,293
Speaker 3: of the claims being made about hunter gatherer civilizations and

435
00:24:54,333 --> 00:24:56,293
Speaker 3: be the party of science. Is we just know that

436
00:24:56,373 --> 00:25:00,053
Speaker 3: a lot of it's wrong, indeed, and it's not a judgment.

437
00:25:00,413 --> 00:25:03,853
Speaker 3: I mean I didn't. There was no merit based on me.

438
00:25:04,053 --> 00:25:07,053
Speaker 3: I won the lottery of life by being born in

439
00:25:07,173 --> 00:25:12,173
Speaker 3: Canada in the nineteen sixties speaking English. Already, when you

440
00:25:12,213 --> 00:25:14,613
Speaker 3: speak English, you have won the lottery of life. I

441
00:25:14,653 --> 00:25:17,813
Speaker 3: can go as a lawyer and work anywhere and all

442
00:25:17,853 --> 00:25:20,453
Speaker 3: non English speakers have to speak my language. If I'm

443
00:25:20,493 --> 00:25:23,413
Speaker 3: a scientist, I can go anywhere and speak English and

444
00:25:23,413 --> 00:25:25,333
Speaker 3: they all have to speak English or they can't get

445
00:25:25,333 --> 00:25:27,653
Speaker 3: their papers published. We have the people.

446
00:25:27,813 --> 00:25:30,613
Speaker 2: Sorry, Yeah, we have an audience. We have an audience

447
00:25:30,653 --> 00:25:33,573
Speaker 2: in Canada. We had an audience there. We have an

448
00:25:33,613 --> 00:25:36,293
Speaker 2: audience in the States. But that's not why I mentioned it.

449
00:25:37,773 --> 00:25:41,973
Speaker 2: If that was your loto win, being born in Canada

450
00:25:42,013 --> 00:25:44,933
Speaker 2: and speaking English, what was your second lot I win?

451
00:25:46,693 --> 00:25:52,093
Speaker 3: Oh? You know, I mean I was well, I was

452
00:25:52,173 --> 00:25:55,253
Speaker 3: very lucky that my wife picked me. I'm coming up

453
00:25:55,253 --> 00:25:58,213
Speaker 3: to my fortieth anniversary coming up in a couple of months,

454
00:25:58,213 --> 00:26:02,533
Speaker 3: and you know I got I must have caught her

455
00:26:02,573 --> 00:26:05,533
Speaker 3: at a really down moment after big night out drinking,

456
00:26:06,333 --> 00:26:08,733
Speaker 3: because you know that that's the dust thing that happened

457
00:26:08,733 --> 00:26:11,973
Speaker 3: to me. I've just been really lucky. But leaving a side,

458
00:26:11,973 --> 00:26:13,853
Speaker 3: and you know, it's way more important to who you

459
00:26:13,933 --> 00:26:18,613
Speaker 3: married than than the jobs you pick. But leaving that aside, yeah,

460
00:26:18,653 --> 00:26:22,293
Speaker 3: getting out and we just took jobs all over. We

461
00:26:22,373 --> 00:26:26,413
Speaker 3: went first to Hong Kong before the handover, which is

462
00:26:26,453 --> 00:26:28,293
Speaker 3: one of the great four years of my life. It

463
00:26:28,373 --> 00:26:30,693
Speaker 3: was like living in a Somerset mom short story. It

464
00:26:30,813 --> 00:26:33,333
Speaker 3: was just magnificent. And now it's so sad. I can't eat.

465
00:26:33,373 --> 00:26:35,053
Speaker 3: I can't go back to Hong Kong. It's so sad

466
00:26:35,053 --> 00:26:39,133
Speaker 3: what's happened there. And then going I loved, we loved

467
00:26:39,133 --> 00:26:42,213
Speaker 3: our eleven years in New Zealand. I'm glad I didn't.

468
00:26:42,253 --> 00:26:44,453
Speaker 3: Actually I practiced law at a big firm and then

469
00:26:45,253 --> 00:26:47,253
Speaker 3: for a year and a bit in at the bar

470
00:26:47,333 --> 00:26:50,573
Speaker 3: in London, and being a barrister in London is actually

471
00:26:50,653 --> 00:26:52,453
Speaker 3: quite a nice sort of way to spend your life.

472
00:26:52,493 --> 00:26:55,253
Speaker 3: But there were all sorts of reasons. I couldn't do that,

473
00:26:55,373 --> 00:26:58,293
Speaker 3: vis the reasons and stuff being a lawyer in a

474
00:26:58,293 --> 00:27:00,973
Speaker 3: big corporate law firm, which I did for FUSE in Toronto.

475
00:27:01,053 --> 00:27:05,493
Speaker 3: You know, two hundred plus lawyers in the firm Toronto.

476
00:27:05,613 --> 00:27:07,973
Speaker 3: I didn't like it. And you know I've saw I've

477
00:27:08,013 --> 00:27:10,933
Speaker 3: never it's a fact. I mean, everyone's motivated by money

478
00:27:10,973 --> 00:27:13,093
Speaker 3: to some extent, but it's never been the main motivation

479
00:27:13,213 --> 00:27:17,293
Speaker 3: for me. I sort of, I just I like, I

480
00:27:17,533 --> 00:27:20,573
Speaker 3: sort of fell into working in universities when it was

481
00:27:20,733 --> 00:27:23,973
Speaker 3: really still fun. My four years in Hong Kong at

482
00:27:23,973 --> 00:27:26,453
Speaker 3: the brand new university were really fun, and the Tago

483
00:27:26,573 --> 00:27:29,933
Speaker 3: Law School from ninety three to two thousand and four

484
00:27:30,053 --> 00:27:32,973
Speaker 3: was great. I'm afraid to say it is from what

485
00:27:33,053 --> 00:27:36,333
Speaker 3: I hear, it is not the same place that I left.

486
00:27:37,533 --> 00:27:39,693
Speaker 2: Let me reassure you your hearing is.

487
00:27:41,613 --> 00:27:41,813
Speaker 3: Right.

488
00:27:42,893 --> 00:27:47,053
Speaker 2: But seeing you've raised it. In two thousand and ten,

489
00:27:47,773 --> 00:27:52,093
Speaker 2: I took my boy the second one. We went to Melbourne.

490
00:27:52,093 --> 00:27:54,613
Speaker 2: He got the idea that he might like to go

491
00:27:54,653 --> 00:28:00,093
Speaker 2: to Melbourne University and we went to Melbourne. There's a

492
00:28:00,093 --> 00:28:03,853
Speaker 2: whole story here, but i'll reduce it. And we arrived

493
00:28:03,853 --> 00:28:05,533
Speaker 2: on a day we didn't know, we arrived on a

494
00:28:05,613 --> 00:28:07,613
Speaker 2: day when it was an open It was a public holiday,

495
00:28:07,613 --> 00:28:11,093
Speaker 2: but the university was open with tours and all of that.

496
00:28:11,973 --> 00:28:14,733
Speaker 2: So we went and he decided he wanted to be

497
00:28:14,853 --> 00:28:18,773
Speaker 2: on the campus. And there's only one college on the campus,

498
00:28:19,253 --> 00:28:21,373
Speaker 2: and he gained everybody wants to go there, and he

499
00:28:21,413 --> 00:28:25,773
Speaker 2: got access, he got approved, got approved for law, and

500
00:28:25,813 --> 00:28:27,613
Speaker 2: he decided he wasn't going to go to Melbourne after

501
00:28:27,613 --> 00:28:31,013
Speaker 2: that because there was a clash in subjects. He wanted

502
00:28:31,053 --> 00:28:36,253
Speaker 2: to do history specifically, he loves history, and it said no,

503
00:28:36,453 --> 00:28:40,573
Speaker 2: I'm I'm going to go to a targo. And I

504
00:28:40,653 --> 00:28:42,853
Speaker 2: breathed something of a sigh of relief because even though

505
00:28:43,693 --> 00:28:46,773
Speaker 2: my father, his grandfather went to Melbourne and I had

506
00:28:46,813 --> 00:28:50,573
Speaker 2: cousins and uncles who were lecturers there, I would have

507
00:28:50,573 --> 00:28:53,453
Speaker 2: had to pay for it through the nose. And it's

508
00:28:53,533 --> 00:28:57,973
Speaker 2: a different story down down in Otago. Now. He was

509
00:28:58,133 --> 00:29:00,933
Speaker 2: very happy that he went to a targo and so

510
00:29:01,173 --> 00:29:05,133
Speaker 2: was I. Question is, what would you advise if it

511
00:29:05,213 --> 00:29:08,493
Speaker 2: was today that that was taking place that discussion. What

512
00:29:08,533 --> 00:29:09,533
Speaker 2: would your advice be?

513
00:29:10,893 --> 00:29:14,613
Speaker 3: Yeah, I mean there's an awful lot of degrees that

514
00:29:14,773 --> 00:29:19,013
Speaker 3: universities now give which have basically a negative value. I mean,

515
00:29:19,093 --> 00:29:21,533
Speaker 3: part of the problem is we've become credential mad. There's

516
00:29:21,573 --> 00:29:23,893
Speaker 3: a lot of jobs people used to do without a

517
00:29:24,013 --> 00:29:28,093
Speaker 3: university degree, and now it's a sort of arms race

518
00:29:28,093 --> 00:29:30,533
Speaker 3: of credentials, and you need to have a degree just

519
00:29:30,573 --> 00:29:32,133
Speaker 3: to do a job that really no one with a

520
00:29:32,133 --> 00:29:35,453
Speaker 3: straight face thinks needs a degree. And that's partly because

521
00:29:35,493 --> 00:29:38,053
Speaker 3: governments like to say I've got fifty percent of the

522
00:29:38,093 --> 00:29:42,253
Speaker 3: young people in the university, but universities really don't really

523
00:29:42,253 --> 00:29:45,013
Speaker 3: need to cater They shouldn't be catering to fifty percent

524
00:29:45,013 --> 00:29:47,173
Speaker 3: of young And that's not a criticism of people who

525
00:29:47,173 --> 00:29:49,773
Speaker 3: don't go to university. I mean, right now in Britaine,

526
00:29:49,773 --> 00:29:52,373
Speaker 3: we're about to there's going to be huge building for

527
00:29:52,413 --> 00:29:54,933
Speaker 3: the twenty thirty two Olympics. They can't get any tradees.

528
00:29:56,573 --> 00:30:01,093
Speaker 3: So here's the weird thing. We cut tuition fees at university.

529
00:30:02,493 --> 00:30:05,213
Speaker 3: That's basically one of the pledges right now in the

530
00:30:05,333 --> 00:30:08,653
Speaker 3: current campaign over here. And so people who are going

531
00:30:08,693 --> 00:30:12,013
Speaker 3: into law and medicine, upper middle class kids are getting

532
00:30:12,053 --> 00:30:16,613
Speaker 3: subsidized by hairdressers and plumbers who have to pay taxes

533
00:30:16,613 --> 00:30:20,693
Speaker 3: to support these people. It's a moral disgrace and it's

534
00:30:20,773 --> 00:30:22,893
Speaker 3: even worse when it comes from a left wing party

535
00:30:23,653 --> 00:30:25,493
Speaker 3: because they're supposed to care about that. Well, we know

536
00:30:25,533 --> 00:30:27,573
Speaker 3: they don't, and there's a flip going on in the

537
00:30:27,613 --> 00:30:32,973
Speaker 3: political spectrum. But how you can defend cutting tuition fees

538
00:30:33,253 --> 00:30:35,613
Speaker 3: which means it's coming out of the general revenue, which

539
00:30:35,653 --> 00:30:39,493
Speaker 3: means it's coming out of taxes, And no one says, hey,

540
00:30:39,493 --> 00:30:42,493
Speaker 3: you know, we're going to give you a free apprenticeship.

541
00:30:42,893 --> 00:30:45,373
Speaker 3: In fact, it's really hard to do apprenticeships now because

542
00:30:45,413 --> 00:30:49,093
Speaker 3: they've so overregulated them. Or you know, these young girls

543
00:30:49,173 --> 00:30:50,893
Speaker 3: have to go and pay to go and become learn

544
00:30:50,933 --> 00:30:54,853
Speaker 3: how to be hairdressers or peutians or whatever. So the

545
00:30:54,893 --> 00:30:58,173
Speaker 3: whole world is skewed on that front, and so other

546
00:30:58,293 --> 00:31:00,733
Speaker 3: than the fact of the matter that you often need

547
00:31:00,773 --> 00:31:03,933
Speaker 3: a credential for employers to let you in the door.

548
00:31:04,693 --> 00:31:07,173
Speaker 3: And I think that's changing it certainly it's changing in

549
00:31:07,213 --> 00:31:09,813
Speaker 3: the US. More and more people are saying, you know,

550
00:31:09,893 --> 00:31:12,293
Speaker 3: you've gone off and done a women's studies degree, or

551
00:31:12,733 --> 00:31:18,133
Speaker 3: you know, a Aboriginal studies degree or whatever indigenous studies degree,

552
00:31:18,133 --> 00:31:22,173
Speaker 3: and you've just become you know, it's like weaponized grievance politics.

553
00:31:22,693 --> 00:31:24,253
Speaker 3: And I'm not sure why would you want to hire

554
00:31:24,293 --> 00:31:28,093
Speaker 3: a person like that? What you So, of course there

555
00:31:28,093 --> 00:31:31,453
Speaker 3: are some degrees that are well worth doing and they're

556
00:31:31,493 --> 00:31:36,333
Speaker 3: moderately not too political. So engineering, even engineering is being politicized,

557
00:31:36,373 --> 00:31:40,533
Speaker 3: but it's a bit harder to politicize engineering obviously if

558
00:31:40,533 --> 00:31:43,213
Speaker 3: you have numeracy. I do my first degree in math.

559
00:31:43,253 --> 00:31:45,133
Speaker 3: If you're good at math, you're always going to get

560
00:31:45,133 --> 00:31:48,853
Speaker 3: a job. But a lot of degrees, so I went

561
00:31:48,893 --> 00:31:52,133
Speaker 3: through and did philosophy, English history a bit along because

562
00:31:52,133 --> 00:31:54,773
Speaker 3: you do a first degree in Canada along with math.

563
00:31:55,933 --> 00:31:58,453
Speaker 3: The kind of courses I took just aren't they just

564
00:31:58,533 --> 00:32:03,813
Speaker 3: aren't offered anymore by universities very much. Well, you know,

565
00:32:03,853 --> 00:32:05,813
Speaker 3: we always had everyone had to do a survey course

566
00:32:05,813 --> 00:32:08,053
Speaker 3: on Western civilization. You'd sort of you know, they used

567
00:32:08,053 --> 00:32:11,173
Speaker 3: to joke about it, from Plato to Nato, and those

568
00:32:11,213 --> 00:32:14,653
Speaker 3: are great courses you learned about, you know, everybody starting

569
00:32:14,653 --> 00:32:18,093
Speaker 3: with the ancient Greeks and making your way forward. Well,

570
00:32:18,133 --> 00:32:22,653
Speaker 3: they you know, they were seen to be id idealizing

571
00:32:22,773 --> 00:32:25,973
Speaker 3: or something Western civilization. But it's not like we didn't

572
00:32:25,973 --> 00:32:28,813
Speaker 3: look at the flaw. I mean, everyone should read Machiavelli,

573
00:32:29,973 --> 00:32:32,413
Speaker 3: you know, everyone should read a bit of Freud, he's crazy.

574
00:32:32,453 --> 00:32:36,893
Speaker 3: But and so that's gone and history has become more well,

575
00:32:36,933 --> 00:32:38,693
Speaker 3: we don't want to look at the great men in history.

576
00:32:38,693 --> 00:32:41,293
Speaker 3: We want to look at what happened to the chambermaid

577
00:32:41,373 --> 00:32:43,813
Speaker 3: in the seventeenth So it's boring. Nobody cares. We all

578
00:32:43,853 --> 00:32:46,653
Speaker 3: know they had a terrible life. I mean, it's not

579
00:32:46,693 --> 00:32:51,053
Speaker 3: that difficult to use your imagination to know that ninety

580
00:32:51,173 --> 00:32:53,533
Speaker 3: nine percent of people in the fifteen hundreds of the

581
00:32:53,573 --> 00:32:57,173
Speaker 3: sixteen hundreds in the seventeen I had a pretty terrible life,

582
00:32:57,533 --> 00:33:01,293
Speaker 3: and it was worse before then. And so why why

583
00:33:01,333 --> 00:33:03,213
Speaker 3: you know? You could you could sum that up in

584
00:33:03,253 --> 00:33:06,653
Speaker 3: about half an hour. But we so. So the courses

585
00:33:07,293 --> 00:33:09,813
Speaker 3: are being cannibalized because the people who teach them or

586
00:33:09,893 --> 00:33:11,453
Speaker 3: teaching them in a way that no one wants to

587
00:33:11,493 --> 00:33:14,333
Speaker 3: take them, and they're collapsing. You can see in the

588
00:33:14,453 --> 00:33:19,373
Speaker 3: US that people taking the sort of humanities type courses,

589
00:33:20,893 --> 00:33:23,773
Speaker 3: the numbers are collapsing, which is a real shame. I mean,

590
00:33:23,773 --> 00:33:26,333
Speaker 3: at one point when in the nineteen eighties, half of

591
00:33:26,453 --> 00:33:28,933
Speaker 3: the CEOs on New York Stock Exchange, the S and

592
00:33:28,973 --> 00:33:32,493
Speaker 3: P five hundred or whatever it's called, had the philosophy degrees.

593
00:33:32,613 --> 00:33:35,533
Speaker 3: Is their first degree because it taught analytical thinking, it

594
00:33:35,653 --> 00:33:38,893
Speaker 3: taught taking arguments apart. One of the great degrees you

595
00:33:38,893 --> 00:33:42,413
Speaker 3: could have was a philosophy degree. Not now. I mean,

596
00:33:42,453 --> 00:33:45,733
Speaker 3: it's okay, but it's not what it was. So I

597
00:33:45,733 --> 00:33:47,493
Speaker 3: don't know. I think it depends what you want to do.

598
00:33:47,573 --> 00:33:49,013
Speaker 3: It's hard to give general advice.

599
00:33:49,213 --> 00:33:52,573
Speaker 2: Well, so many young people who don't know what they

600
00:33:52,613 --> 00:33:53,013
Speaker 2: want to do.

601
00:33:53,733 --> 00:33:56,293
Speaker 3: Well, you know, we went to university without even worrying

602
00:33:56,333 --> 00:33:58,773
Speaker 3: about a job and never cried. My parents never said

603
00:33:58,773 --> 00:34:02,773
Speaker 3: anything about it. I never thought about it. He just figured, okay, well,

604
00:34:02,813 --> 00:34:05,413
Speaker 3: this is the time of life to learn go away

605
00:34:05,453 --> 00:34:07,213
Speaker 3: from That's another great thing about to Tago. At the

606
00:34:07,253 --> 00:34:10,453
Speaker 3: time you'd go away from home. Home he learned academic stuff.

607
00:34:10,453 --> 00:34:12,533
Speaker 3: You learned how to live by yourself, how to drink

608
00:34:12,613 --> 00:34:15,093
Speaker 3: the floot and the flat had to drink. And you know,

609
00:34:15,133 --> 00:34:17,653
Speaker 3: the Puritans have taken over the University's one of the

610
00:34:17,693 --> 00:34:21,613
Speaker 3: great rituals. I'm get in trouble reminding people of this,

611
00:34:21,733 --> 00:34:24,533
Speaker 3: but one of the great rituals every year at Otago

612
00:34:24,613 --> 00:34:26,333
Speaker 3: while I was there for eleven years, was at the

613
00:34:26,373 --> 00:34:28,933
Speaker 3: start of the Frosh week, at the beginning of the

614
00:34:29,013 --> 00:34:32,253
Speaker 3: calendar year. Academic year. One of the beer companies, off

615
00:34:32,293 --> 00:34:33,733
Speaker 3: the top of my head, I think it was Twoey's

616
00:34:33,773 --> 00:34:36,773
Speaker 3: would always buy all the billboards around campus, and the

617
00:34:36,853 --> 00:34:41,773
Speaker 3: billboard always said Twoey's Beer helping ugly people have sex

618
00:34:41,853 --> 00:34:44,093
Speaker 3: for you know, eighty seven years or whatever it was.

619
00:34:44,453 --> 00:34:46,773
Speaker 3: It was funny and it had an element of truth

620
00:34:46,813 --> 00:34:50,893
Speaker 3: to it. Today they would say, oh, you can't say that. Well,

621
00:34:50,933 --> 00:34:53,333
Speaker 3: you know, it's too bad because you know, the Puritans

622
00:34:53,333 --> 00:34:56,773
Speaker 3: are boring, you know, a little bit of humor in life,

623
00:34:56,853 --> 00:34:58,773
Speaker 3: because you know it's partly.

624
00:34:58,493 --> 00:35:01,013
Speaker 2: True, well almost eradicated.

625
00:35:01,693 --> 00:35:03,933
Speaker 3: It's been almost eradicated. And then that you know, the

626
00:35:04,013 --> 00:35:07,813
Speaker 3: university has become massively overregulated. So I don't know. Someone

627
00:35:07,893 --> 00:35:10,773
Speaker 3: told me there's like six deputy vice chancellors of the Tago.

628
00:35:10,893 --> 00:35:13,053
Speaker 3: Now when I was there, I think there was one,

629
00:35:13,173 --> 00:35:17,253
Speaker 3: and even that was too many. And in Australia, the

630
00:35:18,373 --> 00:35:21,653
Speaker 3: so this this actually unites academics on the left and

631
00:35:21,733 --> 00:35:24,053
Speaker 3: the right of the political spectrum. We all hate the

632
00:35:24,133 --> 00:35:29,613
Speaker 3: massively over bureaucratic universities. And in Australia the wage bill,

633
00:35:30,093 --> 00:35:32,333
Speaker 3: well well over fifty percent of the wage bill goes

634
00:35:32,373 --> 00:35:36,013
Speaker 3: to people in universities who are not teaching and not publishing.

635
00:35:36,453 --> 00:35:39,213
Speaker 3: They're administering who would run their own small business where

636
00:35:39,653 --> 00:35:42,013
Speaker 3: half the money went to people who managed the people

637
00:35:42,013 --> 00:35:45,213
Speaker 3: who are making the money. This is nuts, right, And

638
00:35:45,253 --> 00:35:47,853
Speaker 3: that's what we have in the universities. They have these

639
00:35:47,853 --> 00:35:50,693
Speaker 3: affirmative action things which they dress up in the language

640
00:35:50,733 --> 00:35:55,893
Speaker 3: of dei or you know, indigenous concerns or whatever, and

641
00:35:55,933 --> 00:36:01,933
Speaker 3: they have they just have these massive bodies who make

642
00:36:02,013 --> 00:36:04,733
Speaker 3: you get grants and they look for grant getting. You know,

643
00:36:04,773 --> 00:36:08,053
Speaker 3: these are inputs. Government gives money, the university hires all

644
00:36:08,053 --> 00:36:10,093
Speaker 3: sorts of people that help you get the money, and

645
00:36:10,093 --> 00:36:12,173
Speaker 3: then you get the money and you use the grant

646
00:36:12,213 --> 00:36:15,453
Speaker 3: to write an article. And here's the truth about universes.

647
00:36:16,133 --> 00:36:19,293
Speaker 3: I still staggered. If you had two academics who are

648
00:36:19,333 --> 00:36:22,773
Speaker 3: exactly equal and one of them wrote a great article

649
00:36:22,853 --> 00:36:25,613
Speaker 3: in the top journal in the world with no money

650
00:36:25,653 --> 00:36:28,893
Speaker 3: from government, no grant, and the other one, you know,

651
00:36:29,333 --> 00:36:31,773
Speaker 3: put in for this ten million dollar grant. I wrote

652
00:36:31,773 --> 00:36:34,453
Speaker 3: the exact same article. Well, the person who took no

653
00:36:34,573 --> 00:36:37,293
Speaker 3: taxpayer money would be treated as a pariat and not

654
00:36:37,373 --> 00:36:40,213
Speaker 3: get promoted. And I'm not joking about that. Because you

655
00:36:40,293 --> 00:36:44,533
Speaker 3: must get grants. Why no one can answer that because

656
00:36:44,573 --> 00:36:47,053
Speaker 3: you have to keep people who work in the universities

657
00:36:47,053 --> 00:36:50,253
Speaker 3: getting the grants employed is the real answer. The government

658
00:36:50,373 --> 00:36:52,693
Speaker 3: outside of the hard sciences should end. Well you did

659
00:36:52,733 --> 00:36:55,533
Speaker 3: end that. That's one good thing Watson's done. Actually they've

660
00:36:55,653 --> 00:36:59,493
Speaker 3: ended all the Marsden grants and the social sciences and humanity,

661
00:36:59,573 --> 00:37:04,493
Speaker 3: so that was a great thing. Commend I commend them

662
00:37:04,493 --> 00:37:04,773
Speaker 3: on that.

663
00:37:05,653 --> 00:37:09,653
Speaker 2: Let me go back to set a Field complaint over

664
00:37:09,733 --> 00:37:13,693
Speaker 2: teaching t kung and mari in law schools rejected. I

665
00:37:14,453 --> 00:37:19,613
Speaker 2: want your explanation for this, whatever it is. So a

666
00:37:19,653 --> 00:37:24,133
Speaker 2: Select committee this we know the story because Gary Judd

667
00:37:24,253 --> 00:37:27,893
Speaker 2: case had lodged a complaint and it went to Parliament

668
00:37:27,973 --> 00:37:31,373
Speaker 2: to a Select committee to be discussed and decided upon.

669
00:37:31,973 --> 00:37:36,373
Speaker 2: So a select committee has largely rejected a campaign over

670
00:37:36,813 --> 00:37:42,333
Speaker 2: regulations requiring law schools to teach students about tea kunger

671
00:37:42,653 --> 00:37:47,773
Speaker 2: in Bracket's tradition, but recommended changes based on a related concern.

672
00:37:48,613 --> 00:37:52,653
Speaker 2: First made public in twenty three and taking effect from

673
00:37:52,733 --> 00:37:56,053
Speaker 2: the start of this year. The regulatory changes would require

674
00:37:56,093 --> 00:37:59,173
Speaker 2: a compulsory law course on t kunga mari under the

675
00:37:59,253 --> 00:38:03,493
Speaker 2: Legal Education curriculum, as well as the inclusion of relevant

676
00:38:03,613 --> 00:38:07,813
Speaker 2: content on t kung and mari in existing compulsory courses.

677
00:38:08,613 --> 00:38:12,213
Speaker 2: Committee said requiring tea hunger be taught as a mandatory

678
00:38:12,213 --> 00:38:15,053
Speaker 2: part of the other subjects rather than only as a

679
00:38:15,133 --> 00:38:21,413
Speaker 2: separate compulsory course, was unusual and unexpected and should be changed.

680
00:38:21,693 --> 00:38:23,413
Speaker 2: Labor said there was no need to change it. The

681
00:38:23,453 --> 00:38:28,533
Speaker 2: Green said the compliance sorry, the complaint process was flawed,

682
00:38:28,773 --> 00:38:31,653
Speaker 2: and Act said the complaint should be upheld in full.

683
00:38:33,093 --> 00:38:35,613
Speaker 3: Sure it didn't need you on first say a.

684
00:38:35,653 --> 00:38:40,013
Speaker 2: Deputy Prime Minister Winston Peters supported Judge Judge's complaint instaid

685
00:38:40,133 --> 00:38:45,933
Speaker 2: teaching tea kunger was cultural indoctrination. Now why did the

686
00:38:46,093 --> 00:38:47,933
Speaker 2: committee decide the way that it did.

687
00:38:49,373 --> 00:38:51,973
Speaker 3: Well. The political answer is because mister Luckson and the

688
00:38:52,053 --> 00:38:57,053
Speaker 3: National Party are cowards. That's the simple answer. But again,

689
00:38:57,053 --> 00:39:00,493
Speaker 3: nobody can even say what tkanga maori is. It's sort

690
00:39:00,533 --> 00:39:04,013
Speaker 3: of like indigenized in the curriculum. I mean, it's a

691
00:39:04,093 --> 00:39:07,133
Speaker 3: nifty little trick. Your top court can just sort of

692
00:39:07,493 --> 00:39:10,213
Speaker 3: bring this thing up of nowhere in the Peter Ellis case,

693
00:39:10,213 --> 00:39:13,093
Speaker 3: and then the lawyers can say, well, look we have

694
00:39:13,173 --> 00:39:16,733
Speaker 3: to study this because it's got actual relevance in the

695
00:39:16,853 --> 00:39:20,013
Speaker 3: legal world. Why because it's been made up by your

696
00:39:20,053 --> 00:39:23,333
Speaker 3: top judges and imposed into the system, and so they

697
00:39:23,333 --> 00:39:26,013
Speaker 3: can say, look, you just have to know this stuff,

698
00:39:26,013 --> 00:39:27,973
Speaker 3: even though you can say, well what is it, We

699
00:39:28,053 --> 00:39:31,773
Speaker 3: have to know what aspects of t tanger Maori are there.

700
00:39:32,253 --> 00:39:34,213
Speaker 3: I mean, I assume that no one wants to have

701
00:39:34,293 --> 00:39:40,093
Speaker 3: the sort of you know, early eighteen hundred's Maori dispute

702
00:39:40,173 --> 00:39:43,973
Speaker 3: resolution system in play. So again it always seems to

703
00:39:43,973 --> 00:39:48,533
Speaker 3: boil down to well, you know, a generous appreciation of

704
00:39:49,253 --> 00:39:53,133
Speaker 3: this culture, and again, what does that tell you about

705
00:39:53,173 --> 00:39:55,973
Speaker 3: how you ought to be citing things as a lawyer.

706
00:39:56,693 --> 00:39:59,693
Speaker 3: It's very hard to understand other than as a vehicle

707
00:40:00,293 --> 00:40:03,893
Speaker 3: which demands that you have this view of the world

708
00:40:03,893 --> 00:40:06,253
Speaker 3: where all cultures are equal, which I don't think is

709
00:40:06,293 --> 00:40:10,813
Speaker 3: true in any factual work course not true. And it's

710
00:40:10,853 --> 00:40:16,013
Speaker 3: also it's because it's characterized in sort of vague, morphous,

711
00:40:16,293 --> 00:40:19,613
Speaker 3: fluffy terms. It's a vehicle that allows you to accomplish

712
00:40:19,773 --> 00:40:24,173
Speaker 3: left wing things, never right wing things, so that you

713
00:40:24,293 --> 00:40:27,653
Speaker 3: just knew that the court, the Supreme your top court,

714
00:40:27,653 --> 00:40:31,013
Speaker 3: would would make a declaration that you have to take

715
00:40:31,013 --> 00:40:34,053
Speaker 3: the voting age down to sixteen, something that no conservative

716
00:40:34,093 --> 00:40:37,453
Speaker 3: party wants, but lots of left wing parties want. You know,

717
00:40:37,493 --> 00:40:40,133
Speaker 3: they would never know where they're never going to make

718
00:40:40,173 --> 00:40:45,133
Speaker 3: a declaration because lawyers and the lawyerly cast are today

719
00:40:45,373 --> 00:40:48,453
Speaker 3: far to the left of the median voter. There's tons

720
00:40:48,453 --> 00:40:51,973
Speaker 3: of empirical data on this from the US where political

721
00:40:52,013 --> 00:40:56,013
Speaker 3: donations are public information. But you know, I say this

722
00:40:56,093 --> 00:40:58,653
Speaker 3: all the time, if you went back sixty years, the

723
00:40:58,773 --> 00:41:02,533
Speaker 3: median voter would probably be more conservative than Sorry, the

724
00:41:02,573 --> 00:41:05,693
Speaker 3: median lawyer would be more conservative than the median voter.

725
00:41:06,053 --> 00:41:08,973
Speaker 3: Today it's a standard deviation to the left. At least

726
00:41:09,653 --> 00:41:12,493
Speaker 3: the most woo workplaces you'll find in New Zealm go

727
00:41:12,573 --> 00:41:15,093
Speaker 3: into a big Auca law firm. I mean, you better

728
00:41:15,133 --> 00:41:18,413
Speaker 3: have your pronoun sort of tattooed on your forehead. And

729
00:41:18,613 --> 00:41:23,573
Speaker 3: you know there's no humor. No, it's all left progressive.

730
00:41:24,253 --> 00:41:26,773
Speaker 3: You know, let's get guys in miniskirts out there playing

731
00:41:26,973 --> 00:41:30,773
Speaker 3: playing women's sports. So it's it's a weird phenomenon.

732
00:41:31,173 --> 00:41:36,093
Speaker 2: So did how did that start to arrive at that point?

733
00:41:36,453 --> 00:41:37,613
Speaker 2: What's the first step?

734
00:41:39,693 --> 00:41:41,853
Speaker 3: Well, here's one of the geniuses of Trump is he

735
00:41:41,933 --> 00:41:46,333
Speaker 3: manages to get the Democratic Party to take sides on

736
00:41:46,493 --> 00:41:49,373
Speaker 3: eighty twenty issues, like eighty percent of Americans think it's

737
00:41:49,453 --> 00:41:52,733
Speaker 3: crazy to have, you know, men playing women's sports or

738
00:41:53,613 --> 00:41:56,733
Speaker 3: men who identify as women playing women's sports. And yet

739
00:41:56,733 --> 00:41:58,773
Speaker 3: this is the hill that the Democrats seem to want

740
00:41:58,813 --> 00:42:02,813
Speaker 3: to die on. You just can run through the cultural issues.

741
00:42:03,533 --> 00:42:05,493
Speaker 3: And one of the things I don't understand we see

742
00:42:05,493 --> 00:42:09,293
Speaker 3: this here in Australia the time conservative part don't want

743
00:42:09,293 --> 00:42:13,613
Speaker 3: to fight the culture wars, whereas the culture wars are

744
00:42:14,613 --> 00:42:18,173
Speaker 3: a winning political issue, and they did pools in the US,

745
00:42:18,493 --> 00:42:24,573
Speaker 3: and the three big issues were firstly immigration, secondly pocketbook issues,

746
00:42:24,613 --> 00:42:29,013
Speaker 3: and thirdly cultural issues transgender issues. How the universities around

747
00:42:29,013 --> 00:42:32,173
Speaker 3: all that woke stuff DEI But in a lot of

748
00:42:32,213 --> 00:42:35,893
Speaker 3: the key states, what won it for Trump was taking

749
00:42:35,893 --> 00:42:39,933
Speaker 3: a hard line on cultural issues. And this is just obvious.

750
00:42:40,053 --> 00:42:44,813
Speaker 3: I mean, if people knew how much merit was undermined

751
00:42:44,813 --> 00:42:47,413
Speaker 3: in universities by that, I mean, you know, if you're

752
00:42:47,453 --> 00:42:50,333
Speaker 3: a white male, you do not have the same opportunities

753
00:42:50,373 --> 00:42:53,613
Speaker 3: for scholarships or a lot of other things that you

754
00:42:53,693 --> 00:42:56,333
Speaker 3: do if you're you know, a favored group. And then

755
00:42:56,573 --> 00:43:01,493
Speaker 3: identity politics is arbitrary. They just pick groups arbitrarily. You know,

756
00:43:01,653 --> 00:43:05,853
Speaker 3: someone's one quarter group acts and three quarters group. Why

757
00:43:06,733 --> 00:43:09,733
Speaker 3: why is that person group ACKs. Why aren't they group why?

758
00:43:09,973 --> 00:43:13,573
Speaker 3: No one can ever say. It's like the old you know,

759
00:43:13,973 --> 00:43:16,733
Speaker 3: pre war, pre Civil war US rule that if you

760
00:43:16,773 --> 00:43:20,773
Speaker 3: had any black blood in you, you were black. You know,

761
00:43:21,013 --> 00:43:25,333
Speaker 3: it's racist and it's bizarre, and so I don't really understand.

762
00:43:25,493 --> 00:43:29,573
Speaker 3: I know, it's a sort of utopian left wing view

763
00:43:29,613 --> 00:43:32,413
Speaker 3: of the world where you know, Marxism has an economic

764
00:43:32,453 --> 00:43:34,733
Speaker 3: policy was a disaster, so they've given up on that,

765
00:43:35,213 --> 00:43:40,133
Speaker 3: and they channeled it into a sort of Marxist type

766
00:43:40,213 --> 00:43:43,413
Speaker 3: view about the role of women in society or the

767
00:43:43,533 --> 00:43:48,493
Speaker 3: role of people who have mixed ancestry. So just into

768
00:43:48,533 --> 00:43:50,813
Speaker 3: our just into our in the sorry, just in the price.

769
00:43:50,853 --> 00:43:55,573
Speaker 3: Here in Australia, the last referendum to change the constitution

770
00:43:55,733 --> 00:43:58,413
Speaker 3: to put in a to put in a sort of

771
00:43:58,973 --> 00:44:03,933
Speaker 3: bizarre and what would have been a disastrous entrenched body

772
00:44:04,013 --> 00:44:06,853
Speaker 3: in the constitution. She was again she led the NOKA.

773
00:44:06,893 --> 00:44:09,453
Speaker 3: At one point she said, well, I'm you know, over

774
00:44:09,493 --> 00:44:13,893
Speaker 3: fifty percent Aboriginal, and I think that life for Aboriginal

775
00:44:13,893 --> 00:44:17,893
Speaker 3: people is a lot better since the arrival of Captain

776
00:44:17,933 --> 00:44:22,093
Speaker 3: Cook and the Brits. And in terms of life span,

777
00:44:22,253 --> 00:44:25,253
Speaker 3: she's right, and in terms of the plight of women,

778
00:44:25,613 --> 00:44:28,813
Speaker 3: there is absolutely no doubt. And in terms of your

779
00:44:29,133 --> 00:44:31,453
Speaker 3: you know, you can just go through the list of things,

780
00:44:32,133 --> 00:44:35,493
Speaker 3: but you know she was pillory. You're not allowed to

781
00:44:35,493 --> 00:44:38,573
Speaker 3: say that. You're not allowed to say that, you know,

782
00:44:38,893 --> 00:44:43,573
Speaker 3: this life has been better. Nobody, nobody can control how

783
00:44:43,613 --> 00:44:47,173
Speaker 3: they were born and who their parents were, and so

784
00:44:47,373 --> 00:44:49,733
Speaker 3: you get no credit for that, you get no credit

785
00:44:49,773 --> 00:44:53,093
Speaker 3: for your skin color, and you get no downside. You

786
00:44:53,133 --> 00:44:54,533
Speaker 3: have to make the best you can of it. But

787
00:44:54,933 --> 00:44:58,573
Speaker 3: pretending that a hunter gatherer lifestyle is better than living

788
00:44:58,573 --> 00:45:00,893
Speaker 3: in New Zealand today or you have to be almost

789
00:45:01,013 --> 00:45:04,093
Speaker 3: bonkers to believe that. And it's a bizarre form of

790
00:45:04,093 --> 00:45:09,413
Speaker 3: what Pinker called this romanticism, this utopian ideolized is romanticism

791
00:45:09,453 --> 00:45:13,053
Speaker 3: that he called the noble savage myths. And he's right,

792
00:45:13,453 --> 00:45:16,253
Speaker 3: he's right. I mean, let's just give everyone an honest

793
00:45:16,413 --> 00:45:20,013
Speaker 3: The more intermarriage the better, the more you know, nobody

794
00:45:20,053 --> 00:45:23,293
Speaker 3: thinks about. I mean, race is not really a defensible

795
00:45:23,613 --> 00:45:26,813
Speaker 3: scientific concept because there's there's you know, there's almost no

796
00:45:26,933 --> 00:45:32,253
Speaker 3: genetic differentiation amongst humans. I think chimpanzees have massively more

797
00:45:32,253 --> 00:45:36,173
Speaker 3: than we do, so to the extent we even talk

798
00:45:36,213 --> 00:45:38,373
Speaker 3: about race, it's not really scientific, but everyone sort of

799
00:45:38,373 --> 00:45:40,493
Speaker 3: knows what you mean in a rough and ready sense. Well,

800
00:45:40,533 --> 00:45:43,173
Speaker 3: we shouldn't be thinking those terms. You know, we should

801
00:45:43,213 --> 00:45:45,413
Speaker 3: be just going out and having a beer and playing golf.

802
00:45:45,413 --> 00:45:47,853
Speaker 3: And you know, whoever does the job best gets the

803
00:45:47,973 --> 00:45:51,213
Speaker 3: job because you know, you tax people and that money

804
00:45:51,293 --> 00:45:53,933
Speaker 3: goes to people at the bottom. And you know, merit,

805
00:45:54,213 --> 00:45:56,893
Speaker 3: merit is only defensible to the extent that it delivers

806
00:45:56,893 --> 00:46:00,613
Speaker 3: better outcomes, which it should when better when better qualified

807
00:46:00,653 --> 00:46:04,013
Speaker 3: people have jobs. So I don't really I don't like

808
00:46:04,093 --> 00:46:06,893
Speaker 3: the modern trend. I think Trump is doing a good

809
00:46:06,973 --> 00:46:09,373
Speaker 3: job in the US of fighting against it and having

810
00:46:09,413 --> 00:46:12,813
Speaker 3: some wins, and so I like that, and all the

811
00:46:12,813 --> 00:46:17,693
Speaker 3: people who don't like that can't articulate what they don't

812
00:46:17,813 --> 00:46:21,733
Speaker 3: like about it openly, right, because it's sort of laughable.

813
00:46:22,253 --> 00:46:25,573
Speaker 2: Look, let me, because you've let me down this path again,

814
00:46:25,933 --> 00:46:28,933
Speaker 2: let me go back. And I suspect I noticed at

815
00:46:28,973 --> 00:46:32,053
Speaker 2: the beginning that you went too keen to mention Danny Linden.

816
00:46:32,373 --> 00:46:34,533
Speaker 2: But I'm going to ask you this anyway. For those

817
00:46:34,573 --> 00:46:37,933
Speaker 2: who don't know, this is a lecturer who berated students

818
00:46:38,733 --> 00:46:44,973
Speaker 2: for Indigenous legal history walkout and we well, I don't

819
00:46:45,013 --> 00:46:47,093
Speaker 2: know how many people have actually heard the tape I did.

820
00:46:48,133 --> 00:46:53,813
Speaker 2: It was via the Australian newspaper. And she threatened students.

821
00:46:54,373 --> 00:46:56,973
Speaker 2: She threatened students, WA's what you say and what you

822
00:46:57,133 --> 00:47:00,253
Speaker 2: do if you want to do well in a law degree.

823
00:47:00,693 --> 00:47:03,853
Speaker 2: I'll remember or I remember things, she said, I remember

824
00:47:03,893 --> 00:47:07,333
Speaker 2: your faces, those who left, and she got she got

825
00:47:07,413 --> 00:47:11,573
Speaker 2: quite aggressive. Now, it turns out, and I looked at

826
00:47:11,613 --> 00:47:16,133
Speaker 2: her picture with a blank, blank mind, blank brain, and

827
00:47:16,413 --> 00:47:19,693
Speaker 2: some would say that's permanent. And I thought, now, what

828
00:47:19,853 --> 00:47:27,133
Speaker 2: is her problem? She's white, she's successful. Why is she

829
00:47:27,293 --> 00:47:31,213
Speaker 2: behaving in this absurd manner. Well, it turns out that

830
00:47:31,293 --> 00:47:35,253
Speaker 2: she has a bit i'd say, a drop of Aboriginal

831
00:47:35,253 --> 00:47:39,253
Speaker 2: blood in her who knows, But she doesn't look anything

832
00:47:39,333 --> 00:47:46,013
Speaker 2: like an aborigine. And her attitude, I think is her

833
00:47:46,053 --> 00:47:51,693
Speaker 2: attitude is a reflection on what has gone before, in

834
00:47:51,733 --> 00:47:54,813
Speaker 2: the words of the Vice President of the United States

835
00:47:55,013 --> 00:47:59,533
Speaker 2: up until the election, what has gone before, whatever got

836
00:47:59,613 --> 00:48:03,533
Speaker 2: rammed into her head came from somewhere, but that's what's

837
00:48:03,613 --> 00:48:05,173
Speaker 2: led her down this particular path.

838
00:48:05,693 --> 00:48:09,173
Speaker 3: So a lot of people don't understand you First Amendment

839
00:48:09,253 --> 00:48:11,613
Speaker 3: law of free speech. I think I'm the biggest proponent

840
00:48:11,653 --> 00:48:16,693
Speaker 3: of free speech in an antipody in university. But here's

841
00:48:16,733 --> 00:48:19,613
Speaker 3: the thing. If you worked at McDonald's and you started

842
00:48:19,893 --> 00:48:22,453
Speaker 3: taking a lunch break from your job, from your shift

843
00:48:22,493 --> 00:48:25,733
Speaker 3: with big signs out front that said I'm a vegetarian,

844
00:48:25,773 --> 00:48:29,093
Speaker 3: don't eat here, you would be fired. And you'll be

845
00:48:29,173 --> 00:48:33,373
Speaker 3: rightfully fired, because the one thing, your free speech ends

846
00:48:33,373 --> 00:48:36,493
Speaker 3: at the employer's door, and there's certain limits that they

847
00:48:36,493 --> 00:48:39,293
Speaker 3: can rightfully impose on you once you decide to take

848
00:48:39,333 --> 00:48:42,853
Speaker 3: the job. And so I have in print said that

849
00:48:43,173 --> 00:48:48,253
Speaker 3: Australian universities as a whole would be better run by

850
00:48:48,413 --> 00:48:51,733
Speaker 3: moderately numerate year eleven students, and I think that's true.

851
00:48:52,613 --> 00:48:54,933
Speaker 3: But the one thing I have never done, because I

852
00:48:55,013 --> 00:48:58,973
Speaker 3: understand American I understand free speech, I have never directly

853
00:48:59,013 --> 00:49:02,053
Speaker 3: criticized my employer, who has actually let me say whatever

854
00:49:02,093 --> 00:49:04,453
Speaker 3: I want. I don't know why, because no other conservative

855
00:49:04,493 --> 00:49:07,013
Speaker 3: gets to. So the one thing I won't do is

856
00:49:07,053 --> 00:49:08,733
Speaker 3: the sort of I'm going to take a break from

857
00:49:08,813 --> 00:49:11,933
Speaker 3: McDonald's now and run down the people who've employed me

858
00:49:12,733 --> 00:49:18,533
Speaker 3: in general terms outside of specifically talking about my own employer.

859
00:49:19,933 --> 00:49:26,213
Speaker 3: Universities have gone crazy. They have gone absolutely crazy, and

860
00:49:25,213 --> 00:49:29,533
Speaker 3: we know from the data again from the political donation

861
00:49:29,733 --> 00:49:33,413
Speaker 3: data in the US. Somebody looked trolled some guy at

862
00:49:33,413 --> 00:49:36,173
Speaker 3: Notre Dame trolled through. I think it was from twenty

863
00:49:36,253 --> 00:49:38,653
Speaker 3: eighteen to twenty twenty three, but I might have that wrong.

864
00:49:39,293 --> 00:49:42,773
Speaker 3: Looked at every person working in the US law school

865
00:49:42,933 --> 00:49:44,773
Speaker 3: to see if they gave money and if so, was

866
00:49:44,813 --> 00:49:47,413
Speaker 3: it to the Democrats and the Republicans. And I think

867
00:49:47,693 --> 00:49:51,613
Speaker 3: the ratio was thirty six to one, thirty six to one.

868
00:49:52,253 --> 00:49:56,573
Speaker 3: And so it's very hard for people who who have

869
00:49:56,853 --> 00:50:02,173
Speaker 3: non progressive lefty views to get jobs, especially in some departments.

870
00:50:02,173 --> 00:50:04,613
Speaker 3: I mean, law schools aren't the worst. There would be

871
00:50:04,693 --> 00:50:07,773
Speaker 3: no there would be no National Party voters on betting

872
00:50:07,813 --> 00:50:13,853
Speaker 3: and any New Zealand University Mawori department, I'd be very surprised.

873
00:50:14,333 --> 00:50:18,053
Speaker 3: So that's a problem. And so these sort of views

874
00:50:18,093 --> 00:50:21,093
Speaker 3: are all over the place. And I agree with you

875
00:50:21,293 --> 00:50:25,253
Speaker 3: in general terms that it's a bit odd when somebody

876
00:50:25,613 --> 00:50:32,093
Speaker 3: has a ancestry that's you know, some small percentage acts

877
00:50:32,133 --> 00:50:36,493
Speaker 3: and some large percentage y and they you know, they

878
00:50:36,573 --> 00:50:40,613
Speaker 3: feel that they associate themselves with the acts. I mean,

879
00:50:40,613 --> 00:50:44,133
Speaker 3: there are cases in the US of people claiming to

880
00:50:44,213 --> 00:50:47,413
Speaker 3: be black who have no black They have no Black

881
00:50:47,453 --> 00:50:52,533
Speaker 3: ancestry or Elizabeth Warren. You know, she got her first

882
00:50:52,613 --> 00:50:56,453
Speaker 3: job at Harvard by claiming to be Cherokee Indian, and

883
00:50:56,493 --> 00:50:59,533
Speaker 3: it turned out that wasn't true. And now she's a senator,

884
00:51:00,173 --> 00:51:02,853
Speaker 3: right and everyone knew that with the credentials she brought

885
00:51:02,853 --> 00:51:05,413
Speaker 3: to the table. The only reason that Harvard hires are

886
00:51:05,493 --> 00:51:07,973
Speaker 3: the only reason is because they thought they could tick

887
00:51:08,053 --> 00:51:10,693
Speaker 3: that she was a Native Indian. And you know she

888
00:51:10,813 --> 00:51:14,053
Speaker 3: pretends that, Well, you know, I got no advantage from this.

889
00:51:14,773 --> 00:51:16,613
Speaker 3: It turned out that if you went onto the street

890
00:51:16,653 --> 00:51:20,253
Speaker 3: and picked a random white person, that person had more

891
00:51:21,173 --> 00:51:24,453
Speaker 3: Native Indian blood than Elizabeth Warren. You know, it was

892
00:51:24,493 --> 00:51:27,253
Speaker 3: like one to one thousands. But she was even lower

893
00:51:27,253 --> 00:51:34,573
Speaker 3: than the average sort of Anglo American. So of course

894
00:51:34,733 --> 00:51:37,653
Speaker 3: there are all sorts of sort of incentives for people

895
00:51:38,613 --> 00:51:41,413
Speaker 3: in practical terms. And then combine that with having been

896
00:51:41,453 --> 00:51:45,613
Speaker 3: told at school for your whole life that you know,

897
00:51:46,253 --> 00:51:49,093
Speaker 3: Captain Cook invaded and Western culture is a bad thing.

898
00:51:49,133 --> 00:51:51,853
Speaker 3: And you know, if you look at the hunter gatherer

899
00:51:51,893 --> 00:51:55,213
Speaker 3: people who are here before, what a wonderful, idyllic utopian

900
00:51:55,253 --> 00:51:57,613
Speaker 3: life to be. How do it's just all garbage? So

901
00:51:57,853 --> 00:52:00,213
Speaker 3: you can't really blame people who get force fed this.

902
00:52:00,373 --> 00:52:03,853
Speaker 3: It's like, I don't blame our kids today. I blame

903
00:52:03,933 --> 00:52:07,933
Speaker 3: my generation. We're the ones who let the education system collapse.

904
00:52:08,533 --> 00:52:13,653
Speaker 3: We're the ones who let you know, Australia's teaching results

905
00:52:13,653 --> 00:52:17,133
Speaker 3: are below Kazakhstan and getting worse. They didn't do that.

906
00:52:17,213 --> 00:52:19,173
Speaker 3: We did that. We didn't. We got to go to

907
00:52:19,213 --> 00:52:21,533
Speaker 3: good schools. I went to state schools my whole life

908
00:52:21,573 --> 00:52:24,693
Speaker 3: were in grade five. I knew more grammar with Jarum's

909
00:52:24,733 --> 00:52:27,893
Speaker 3: and participles were than than you know, I can remember

910
00:52:27,933 --> 00:52:31,053
Speaker 3: today and I'm pretty good with grammar. But I you know, so,

911
00:52:31,053 --> 00:52:34,613
Speaker 3: so we didn't. They didn't do that. We took all

912
00:52:34,653 --> 00:52:36,933
Speaker 3: the fun out of life for them. We killed humor.

913
00:52:37,053 --> 00:52:39,933
Speaker 3: We we did all these things. We made it impossible

914
00:52:39,933 --> 00:52:43,373
Speaker 3: for kids to buy a house because of mass immigration

915
00:52:43,573 --> 00:52:44,613
Speaker 3: and because of acid and.

916
00:52:45,213 --> 00:52:50,373
Speaker 2: Hang on, did did we through? Who are you blaming? Actually?

917
00:52:51,293 --> 00:52:55,013
Speaker 3: Because I'm blaming our generation people who voted to the party.

918
00:52:55,293 --> 00:52:58,093
Speaker 2: Well, you see, I still want I still can't quite

919
00:52:58,133 --> 00:53:02,293
Speaker 2: grasp that, even though I even though I bicically agree

920
00:53:02,333 --> 00:53:07,453
Speaker 2: with you, but you take Australia, take New Zealand. People

921
00:53:07,573 --> 00:53:11,493
Speaker 2: kept coming no matter who was making up the government,

922
00:53:11,773 --> 00:53:15,053
Speaker 2: whether it was leed or called or so called center right.

923
00:53:16,493 --> 00:53:19,173
Speaker 3: Not a party political criticism by me. It was a

924
00:53:19,213 --> 00:53:22,813
Speaker 3: criticism of our political class and the sort of elites

925
00:53:22,813 --> 00:53:26,013
Speaker 3: who've made the decisions over the last thirty or forty years.

926
00:53:26,013 --> 00:53:29,213
Speaker 3: They've they've been terrible, and you know, it's a bit

927
00:53:29,293 --> 00:53:32,173
Speaker 3: like COVID. They can't ever admit they made a mistake

928
00:53:32,293 --> 00:53:35,893
Speaker 3: because well, I don't know how they'd sleep at night,

929
00:53:36,293 --> 00:53:39,693
Speaker 3: and b they'd be destroyed. So they just have to

930
00:53:39,733 --> 00:53:44,653
Speaker 3: pretend that that letting in you know, massive numbers is

931
00:53:44,653 --> 00:53:46,813
Speaker 3: a good idea, and they used to pretend it was

932
00:53:46,853 --> 00:53:51,573
Speaker 3: economically beneficial, right you up across domestic product but even

933
00:53:51,613 --> 00:53:54,493
Speaker 3: but lots of recent economic studies have shown unless you're

934
00:53:54,933 --> 00:53:57,653
Speaker 3: looking at highly skilled immigrants and then there is an

935
00:53:57,693 --> 00:54:01,973
Speaker 3: economic payoff for sure, but family reunification and low skilled

936
00:54:03,613 --> 00:54:07,213
Speaker 3: sort of people coming in and claiming refugee status, all

937
00:54:07,653 --> 00:54:10,173
Speaker 3: they some of those people are just in a massive

938
00:54:10,293 --> 00:54:13,013
Speaker 3: drag on the economy. And we now have you know,

939
00:54:13,213 --> 00:54:17,933
Speaker 3: third generation immigrant welfare families. This is none of this

940
00:54:17,973 --> 00:54:21,413
Speaker 3: is good for the local people. And again, if your

941
00:54:21,533 --> 00:54:24,973
Speaker 3: argument is, well, if we let in tons of incredibly

942
00:54:25,093 --> 00:54:27,853
Speaker 3: poor third world people will drive down wages, which is

943
00:54:27,853 --> 00:54:31,973
Speaker 3: what a lot of Rockefeller Republican Chamber of Commerce types

944
00:54:32,013 --> 00:54:35,373
Speaker 3: really want. You know, they can get a cheaper cleaning lady. Well,

945
00:54:35,373 --> 00:54:37,973
Speaker 3: that's not a very good argument. I mean, you should

946
00:54:38,133 --> 00:54:39,893
Speaker 3: I don't mind paying more. And I think that's the

947
00:54:39,933 --> 00:54:43,293
Speaker 3: sort of Trump appeal. He represents people now at the

948
00:54:43,293 --> 00:54:45,893
Speaker 3: bottom end. And what I think one of the things

949
00:54:45,973 --> 00:54:49,293
Speaker 3: is that the political spectrum around the democratic world has

950
00:54:49,333 --> 00:54:54,853
Speaker 3: sort of flipped and conservative parties basically get the working

951
00:54:54,893 --> 00:54:58,933
Speaker 3: class vote now. And that's because left wing parties used

952
00:54:58,973 --> 00:55:03,853
Speaker 3: to be Dennis Healey type redistribution of wealth parties, but

953
00:55:03,933 --> 00:55:06,733
Speaker 3: they weren't woke, and they weren't progressive on social issues,

954
00:55:07,213 --> 00:55:09,453
Speaker 3: and they didn't you know, have a problem with humor.

955
00:55:10,013 --> 00:55:12,853
Speaker 3: And now basically left wing parties have become the party

956
00:55:12,893 --> 00:55:17,373
Speaker 3: of human rights barristers who see international law as preferable

957
00:55:17,413 --> 00:55:24,253
Speaker 3: to domestic law, who see something tawdry. Yeah, well if

958
00:55:24,253 --> 00:55:27,133
Speaker 3: they think there's something tawdry about a plumber having the

959
00:55:27,133 --> 00:55:29,693
Speaker 3: same say in public affairs as they yet because you know,

960
00:55:29,733 --> 00:55:33,213
Speaker 3: they've got three degrees, and it's you know, it's very distasteful.

961
00:55:33,253 --> 00:55:35,493
Speaker 3: I've never liked it. I've always written about it. But

962
00:55:35,933 --> 00:55:38,373
Speaker 3: the more that left wing parties become the party of

963
00:55:38,413 --> 00:55:43,653
Speaker 3: the inner city progressive elites. The more the conservative parties

964
00:55:43,693 --> 00:55:46,373
Speaker 3: are just representing the sort of average working person, and

965
00:55:46,413 --> 00:55:50,053
Speaker 3: that's the majority. And that's what that's what Trump's figured out.

966
00:55:50,093 --> 00:55:52,813
Speaker 3: I mean, he had not a single endorsement from any

967
00:55:52,853 --> 00:55:55,893
Speaker 3: publication I think, except for the New York Post. Even

968
00:55:55,893 --> 00:55:59,813
Speaker 3: the Wall Street Journal probably didn't support him. And it

969
00:55:59,813 --> 00:56:03,133
Speaker 3: didn't matter. He got incredibly negative cover because people have

970
00:56:03,253 --> 00:56:07,453
Speaker 3: realized that the legacy media has become a sort of

971
00:56:08,453 --> 00:56:11,933
Speaker 3: left wing talking shop. It's said, and it's sad, it's sad,

972
00:56:11,933 --> 00:56:13,573
Speaker 3: but you don't you don't get a fair deal.

973
00:56:13,653 --> 00:56:17,133
Speaker 2: By the way, have I noticed a swing to the lift, Well, yeah,

974
00:56:17,213 --> 00:56:19,733
Speaker 2: a swing to the lift on the part of the Australian.

975
00:56:20,253 --> 00:56:23,733
Speaker 3: I think so. But again they occasionally published me I

976
00:56:23,733 --> 00:56:25,613
Speaker 3: should be a little careful. I think if you go

977
00:56:25,613 --> 00:56:31,213
Speaker 3: about ten or twelve thirteen years, it was Yes, I

978
00:56:31,253 --> 00:56:34,253
Speaker 3: think that's true. And where all of us are petrified

979
00:56:34,293 --> 00:56:36,773
Speaker 3: what's going to happen when Rupert Murdoch dies? Because his

980
00:56:36,893 --> 00:56:39,533
Speaker 3: kids one of them's okay, and the other ones are

981
00:56:39,573 --> 00:56:42,013
Speaker 3: pretty well, aren't they? And you know, I mean, it's

982
00:56:42,013 --> 00:56:45,813
Speaker 3: a very profitable business and maybe that will override their desire.

983
00:56:46,413 --> 00:56:50,773
Speaker 3: But the more the more the Murdoch Empire tried to

984
00:56:50,813 --> 00:56:54,733
Speaker 3: turn itself into a New York Times outlet, readers and

985
00:56:54,773 --> 00:56:58,093
Speaker 3: the watchers will go I think I know mister Murdoch

986
00:56:58,173 --> 00:57:01,013
Speaker 3: was trying to run a case and where was it

987
00:57:01,053 --> 00:57:05,373
Speaker 3: delaware or somewhere to get the least wokes under control

988
00:57:05,413 --> 00:57:07,013
Speaker 3: the UMP. I think that failed, didn't it?

989
00:57:07,733 --> 00:57:11,253
Speaker 2: I'm not sure that. Let me as we head to

990
00:57:11,293 --> 00:57:13,693
Speaker 2: the exit door, let me let me make mention of

991
00:57:13,733 --> 00:57:17,373
Speaker 2: two things and you can trick them as short as

992
00:57:17,413 --> 00:57:21,573
Speaker 2: you want. Under the heading of married law expert says

993
00:57:21,613 --> 00:57:27,653
Speaker 2: Ta Kunger, progress in the judicial system is unstoppable. Mamari

994
00:57:27,733 --> 00:57:30,893
Speaker 2: Stephens says it'll take two decades for the two systems

995
00:57:30,933 --> 00:57:34,613
Speaker 2: to fuse together into a at a rower New Zealand

996
00:57:34,733 --> 00:57:39,093
Speaker 2: Law Mary Law and Ta Hunger expert Ma Mamari Stephen

997
00:57:39,133 --> 00:57:44,013
Speaker 2: says judges are looking for application to presume it's toua

998
00:57:44,853 --> 00:57:49,053
Speaker 2: tic kanga, Tua te kanga or mari law in cases

999
00:57:49,093 --> 00:57:55,013
Speaker 2: before them. Judges are looking at application of this. That

1000
00:57:55,053 --> 00:57:58,173
Speaker 2: trend is set together momentum from next year twenty twenty five,

1001
00:57:58,533 --> 00:58:01,253
Speaker 2: when the general principles and practices of ta kung and

1002
00:58:01,293 --> 00:58:08,773
Speaker 2: mary become a compulsory subject in law studies. The expert says,

1003
00:58:09,373 --> 00:58:11,773
Speaker 2: like the common law, it will take decades for the

1004
00:58:11,773 --> 00:58:15,893
Speaker 2: two systems to fuse together into ayatiro and New Zealand law.

1005
00:58:16,093 --> 00:58:20,173
Speaker 2: But that's how it should be. The response I'm looking

1006
00:58:20,573 --> 00:58:24,573
Speaker 2: for is what will that mean for the law?

1007
00:58:26,813 --> 00:58:29,373
Speaker 3: Well, if you're asking for a prediction, she might be right,

1008
00:58:29,493 --> 00:58:32,453
Speaker 3: because basically right wing parties are gutless. I mean, the

1009
00:58:32,533 --> 00:58:35,533
Speaker 3: National Party should have been passing legislation to deal with this,

1010
00:58:35,693 --> 00:58:38,853
Speaker 3: because you're the judges are going down this road. They've

1011
00:58:38,893 --> 00:58:41,853
Speaker 3: been to law schools, they buy into this sort of

1012
00:58:41,893 --> 00:58:46,133
Speaker 3: what I would call mythology. I don't again, I don't

1013
00:58:46,133 --> 00:58:48,733
Speaker 3: even know what it means to say to kanga maori

1014
00:58:48,773 --> 00:58:51,493
Speaker 3: that you take a few amorphous concepts sort of like,

1015
00:58:52,093 --> 00:58:57,653
Speaker 3: I don't know, respect that sort of lingers after you die,

1016
00:58:57,693 --> 00:59:01,253
Speaker 3: and you sort of you say that Peter Ellis should

1017
00:59:01,253 --> 00:59:04,573
Speaker 3: have been pardoned, but you didn't need any of that,

1018
00:59:04,693 --> 00:59:07,293
Speaker 3: And anyway, there's so little content to it that you're

1019
00:59:07,413 --> 00:59:10,893
Speaker 3: not really sure what constraining. And the more law is

1020
00:59:10,973 --> 00:59:14,853
Speaker 3: open ended, and the more law is unconstraining, the more

1021
00:59:14,893 --> 00:59:17,093
Speaker 3: that decisions are made at the point of application by

1022
00:59:17,213 --> 00:59:20,733
Speaker 3: unelected judges. You can see why judges like this because

1023
00:59:20,773 --> 00:59:23,253
Speaker 3: they're going to be making the calls. And that just

1024
00:59:23,413 --> 00:59:26,173
Speaker 3: means that all that matters when you appoint a judge

1025
00:59:26,213 --> 00:59:28,373
Speaker 3: is whether he or she is, you know, what are

1026
00:59:28,413 --> 00:59:31,973
Speaker 3: their political views. This is the American approach. And one

1027
00:59:31,973 --> 00:59:36,333
Speaker 3: of the things with unconstrained sort of legal materials, which

1028
00:59:36,373 --> 00:59:38,213
Speaker 3: I would say is true of bills of rights, but

1029
00:59:38,253 --> 00:59:42,813
Speaker 3: even more true of just whatever the kanga mawori is,

1030
00:59:42,813 --> 00:59:45,893
Speaker 3: is that everything becomes political at the point of applification.

1031
00:59:46,693 --> 00:59:49,533
Speaker 3: And the Americans have two hundred plus years of dealing

1032
00:59:49,573 --> 00:59:53,973
Speaker 3: with this and they know they have an openly political

1033
00:59:54,013 --> 00:59:58,853
Speaker 3: appointments process. And you know, American in the in the

1034
00:59:58,893 --> 01:00:01,693
Speaker 3: Westminster world, the British world, we talk about the judges

1035
01:00:01,933 --> 01:00:03,853
Speaker 3: when they when they give a decision, we talk about

1036
01:00:03,853 --> 01:00:07,893
Speaker 3: their judgment. The Americans talk about their opinion because they

1037
01:00:07,933 --> 01:00:10,253
Speaker 3: see every thing is just an opinion, which is true.

1038
01:00:10,333 --> 01:00:13,773
Speaker 3: I think. I think the American terminology judgment connotes that

1039
01:00:13,813 --> 01:00:16,413
Speaker 3: they've sat down and they've had this well considered thing,

1040
01:00:16,573 --> 01:00:21,053
Speaker 3: completely divorced from any subjective biases, and it's just garbage.

1041
01:00:21,213 --> 01:00:24,813
Speaker 3: You know, your top court of late is imposing sort

1042
01:00:24,853 --> 01:00:27,893
Speaker 3: of progressive shibbalus on on the rest of us. Well,

1043
01:00:27,893 --> 01:00:29,773
Speaker 3: there's an easy way to deal with that in New Zealand,

1044
01:00:29,813 --> 01:00:32,453
Speaker 3: which has no written constitution. Just pass a few statutes

1045
01:00:33,133 --> 01:00:35,133
Speaker 3: and Luxon just doesn't have it in them. I mean,

1046
01:00:35,173 --> 01:00:40,413
Speaker 3: I if I were New Zealand first or act, I

1047
01:00:40,733 --> 01:00:43,893
Speaker 3: would be not happy with the lack of courage. But

1048
01:00:45,413 --> 01:00:46,653
Speaker 3: I suppose.

1049
01:00:48,013 --> 01:00:51,853
Speaker 2: If as time goes by over the next twelve months

1050
01:00:51,973 --> 01:00:57,493
Speaker 2: or so, and there was growing dissatisfaction with National, which

1051
01:00:57,533 --> 01:01:01,293
Speaker 2: of those two parties the two other parties, would you

1052
01:01:01,373 --> 01:01:03,933
Speaker 2: think which one of them would be the most effective?

1053
01:01:04,893 --> 01:01:08,133
Speaker 3: I don't know. I mean, I mean Wint Peter's when

1054
01:01:08,133 --> 01:01:10,173
Speaker 3: he's good, he's good, and when he's bad he's terrible.

1055
01:01:10,173 --> 01:01:12,293
Speaker 3: He should have never put just into our during in

1056
01:01:12,293 --> 01:01:16,053
Speaker 3: in my view, but that despite what he got.

1057
01:01:16,093 --> 01:01:18,093
Speaker 2: Admit that, because he'd never be able to sleep and

1058
01:01:18,853 --> 01:01:20,253
Speaker 2: he'd have to hide his head in shame.

1059
01:01:20,653 --> 01:01:23,333
Speaker 3: So yes, yes he would. He would have to do that,

1060
01:01:23,413 --> 01:01:25,453
Speaker 3: and that caused a lot of problems. And you know,

1061
01:01:25,533 --> 01:01:30,813
Speaker 3: partly it was National Party incompetence. But yes, I agree

1062
01:01:30,813 --> 01:01:33,253
Speaker 3: with thoughts. Uh, well, you know, I think they both

1063
01:01:33,253 --> 01:01:36,773
Speaker 3: serve different markets and given you have the terrible MMP

1064
01:01:37,573 --> 01:01:39,733
Speaker 3: voting system. As long as they both get in, they

1065
01:01:39,933 --> 01:01:41,933
Speaker 3: those two parties should be able to work together on

1066
01:01:42,453 --> 01:01:46,333
Speaker 3: at least some issues. Many. Probably the problem for the

1067
01:01:46,413 --> 01:01:52,493
Speaker 3: National Party is they represent a sort of leftover wealthy types.

1068
01:01:53,013 --> 01:01:55,293
Speaker 3: They don't want to pick fights or a bit cowardly.

1069
01:01:55,333 --> 01:01:57,853
Speaker 3: They don't they can put their kids into private schools.

1070
01:01:57,893 --> 01:02:00,973
Speaker 3: They don't care about culture issues because they you know,

1071
01:02:01,013 --> 01:02:04,853
Speaker 3: they have stable, two parent families and they can talk

1072
01:02:04,893 --> 01:02:07,573
Speaker 3: to the kids at home, and you know, it's not

1073
01:02:07,653 --> 01:02:10,413
Speaker 3: good for the rest of us down the road. And

1074
01:02:10,453 --> 01:02:13,973
Speaker 3: then when you know, a sort of maverick outlier comes

1075
01:02:13,973 --> 01:02:16,213
Speaker 3: in and wins in the US, they're more they're more

1076
01:02:16,253 --> 01:02:19,893
Speaker 3: horrified by Trump than they are by the complete devastation

1077
01:02:20,013 --> 01:02:23,533
Speaker 3: that was brought on by Biden or just Sender or Adourn,

1078
01:02:24,013 --> 01:02:26,773
Speaker 3: you know, because Trump doesn't talk like an educated person.

1079
01:02:26,813 --> 01:02:30,413
Speaker 3: He's quite smart, but he does you know, he he's

1080
01:02:30,493 --> 01:02:34,053
Speaker 3: somebody they can't One of the things I yeah, one

1081
01:02:34,093 --> 01:02:36,933
Speaker 3: of the things I like about Trump is everything he's

1082
01:02:36,973 --> 01:02:39,493
Speaker 3: doing he said he was going to do before the election.

1083
01:02:39,573 --> 01:02:41,093
Speaker 3: He said he was going to bring in terrorists, he

1084
01:02:41,133 --> 01:02:43,813
Speaker 3: said he was going to fight the I every single

1085
01:02:43,853 --> 01:02:47,173
Speaker 3: thing he did. He's promised. Now. I don't know about you,

1086
01:02:47,333 --> 01:02:49,853
Speaker 3: but for me, as a Canadian whos lived in Britain

1087
01:02:49,973 --> 01:02:53,533
Speaker 3: and here and New Zealand, right of center political parties

1088
01:02:53,773 --> 01:02:57,333
Speaker 3: continually promised things and then they never deliver. And so

1089
01:02:57,493 --> 01:03:01,413
Speaker 3: Trump is this refreshing breath of fresh air where I said,

1090
01:03:01,413 --> 01:03:03,653
Speaker 3: I'm going to do this, and I'm doing it and

1091
01:03:03,733 --> 01:03:05,413
Speaker 3: if you don't like it, don't vote for me. Is

1092
01:03:05,413 --> 01:03:10,773
Speaker 3: effectively the motto we used to the sort of wink wink, nudge, nudge. Yes,

1093
01:03:10,813 --> 01:03:13,013
Speaker 3: we'll say a few things we're going to sort out,

1094
01:03:13,053 --> 01:03:17,973
Speaker 3: you know, the the sort of group identity politics doesn't

1095
01:03:18,013 --> 01:03:19,853
Speaker 3: then they get in and well, you know that's a

1096
01:03:19,893 --> 01:03:22,053
Speaker 3: bit hard. We don't want to We don't want to

1097
01:03:22,053 --> 01:03:26,613
Speaker 3: deal with a few radicals who might have aggressive protest

1098
01:03:27,173 --> 01:03:30,333
Speaker 3: movements or something. You know, it's just it's it's it's

1099
01:03:30,373 --> 01:03:32,933
Speaker 3: it's just a weakness. And the last never seems to

1100
01:03:32,973 --> 01:03:36,093
Speaker 3: be the left side of politics is last week. You know,

1101
01:03:36,093 --> 01:03:38,053
Speaker 3: in a way I sort of admire them. They win

1102
01:03:38,093 --> 01:03:40,653
Speaker 3: and then they start doing stuff and they work.

1103
01:03:40,893 --> 01:03:43,133
Speaker 2: They reward themselves rather well for it too.

1104
01:03:43,293 --> 01:03:45,493
Speaker 3: Especially definitely they definitely do that.

1105
01:03:45,933 --> 01:03:49,653
Speaker 2: Yeah, So last last point, uh and it doesn't have

1106
01:03:49,733 --> 01:03:53,893
Speaker 2: to be long. The chief irony of Chief Justice John

1107
01:03:53,973 --> 01:03:58,253
Speaker 2: Roberts tenure at the Supreme Court is that the man

1108
01:03:58,413 --> 01:04:02,093
Speaker 2: so doggedly devoted to defending the judiciary has done so

1109
01:04:02,253 --> 01:04:06,653
Speaker 2: much to undermine it. In doing so, he has threatened

1110
01:04:06,693 --> 01:04:11,493
Speaker 2: not only the Court's legitimacy about the republic itself. Comment.

1111
01:04:13,733 --> 01:04:16,493
Speaker 3: Yeah, I mean it started with the Obamacare case, the

1112
01:04:16,773 --> 01:04:20,973
Speaker 3: Affordable Care Act, where he just changed it was going

1113
01:04:21,013 --> 01:04:23,933
Speaker 3: to lose on a proper understanding of the Constitution on

1114
01:04:24,053 --> 01:04:27,013
Speaker 3: federalism grounds, so he just called it a tax, even

1115
01:04:27,053 --> 01:04:30,053
Speaker 3: though neither lawyer had argued it was a tax, and

1116
01:04:30,093 --> 01:04:33,373
Speaker 3: in fact Obama had said it wasn't a tax because

1117
01:04:33,373 --> 01:04:35,813
Speaker 3: he didn't want the judges to be seen as meddling in,

1118
01:04:36,133 --> 01:04:39,413
Speaker 3: you know, a big ticket political issue over how you

1119
01:04:39,533 --> 01:04:45,653
Speaker 3: deal with medicine and healthcare. And then you know, he

1120
01:04:45,733 --> 01:04:49,933
Speaker 3: dissented in Daubs. That's the taste. It over ruled Roe v. Wade.

1121
01:04:50,333 --> 01:04:53,493
Speaker 3: And he's always trying it seems like his judicial philosophy

1122
01:04:53,653 --> 01:04:58,413
Speaker 3: is what is the most politically popular position here, and

1123
01:04:58,453 --> 01:05:00,693
Speaker 3: he's very low. We don't want too many changes. But

1124
01:05:00,773 --> 01:05:04,173
Speaker 3: the problem is, if you have a written constitution, I

1125
01:05:04,213 --> 01:05:06,013
Speaker 3: don't like them. But if you're going to have one,

1126
01:05:06,333 --> 01:05:10,053
Speaker 3: then the judge's job is to applau the rules. Now,

1127
01:05:10,933 --> 01:05:14,933
Speaker 3: I'm an originalist, You're you're constrained by what was intended

1128
01:05:14,973 --> 01:05:19,413
Speaker 3: by the people who passed the Constitution, and if you

1129
01:05:19,453 --> 01:05:23,773
Speaker 3: don't like that, you amend the Constitution. And by being

1130
01:05:23,813 --> 01:05:29,653
Speaker 3: so overtly political Roberts, he's made everyone angry and so

1131
01:05:30,853 --> 01:05:33,533
Speaker 3: unfortunately on a couple of cases he's gotten the woman

1132
01:05:33,653 --> 01:05:37,293
Speaker 3: Amy Barrett Coney to play along with him. We'll see

1133
01:05:37,333 --> 01:05:40,333
Speaker 3: what happens. The big issue right now are these nationwide

1134
01:05:40,373 --> 01:05:43,853
Speaker 3: injunctions by district court federal judges in the US. I

1135
01:05:43,853 --> 01:05:46,293
Speaker 3: think there's about seven hundred of them. Then, you know,

1136
01:05:46,333 --> 01:05:49,093
Speaker 3: the Democrats having lost in voting booth are so do

1137
01:05:49,133 --> 01:05:53,853
Speaker 3: they look for favorable They forum shop and they find

1138
01:05:53,853 --> 01:05:57,853
Speaker 3: a Democrat judge, and then the Democrat judge issues. So

1139
01:05:58,333 --> 01:06:00,453
Speaker 3: this is pretty low level. This is these are district

1140
01:06:00,493 --> 01:06:03,853
Speaker 3: court judges they issued nationwide injunctions. These are pretty new.

1141
01:06:03,933 --> 01:06:07,213
Speaker 3: They didn't have them until about fifty or sixty years ago.

1142
01:06:07,293 --> 01:06:11,213
Speaker 3: So throughout most of you history and there were more

1143
01:06:12,213 --> 01:06:15,573
Speaker 3: of these injunctions issues in the first you know, month

1144
01:06:15,613 --> 01:06:18,693
Speaker 3: and a half of Trump two then you saw going

1145
01:06:18,733 --> 01:06:22,773
Speaker 3: back to I think Kennedy. And so if you're going

1146
01:06:22,813 --> 01:06:25,213
Speaker 3: to play that kind of game, it's a very dangerous

1147
01:06:25,253 --> 01:06:30,493
Speaker 3: game to play because it's it's it's pretty overtly political. Now,

1148
01:06:30,573 --> 01:06:32,693
Speaker 3: the Supreme Court could have sorted that out. They had

1149
01:06:32,693 --> 01:06:35,453
Speaker 3: a five to four decision on a temporary injunction, can't

1150
01:06:35,453 --> 01:06:38,733
Speaker 3: remember the name of it, Missouri or something, and they

1151
01:06:38,813 --> 01:06:41,733
Speaker 3: just sort of sluffed it off. They said, we can

1152
01:06:41,773 --> 01:06:44,013
Speaker 3: only decide this later when it's you know, and it's

1153
01:06:44,093 --> 01:06:47,053
Speaker 3: not temporary anymore. They should have sorted out right then.

1154
01:06:47,173 --> 01:06:49,013
Speaker 3: I mean, it'd be quite easy just to say district

1155
01:06:49,053 --> 01:06:53,373
Speaker 3: court judges cannot issue national injunctions and it has to

1156
01:06:53,373 --> 01:06:56,293
Speaker 3: go to a circuit court of appeal, or you know,

1157
01:06:56,333 --> 01:06:58,853
Speaker 3: they could even have the Supreme Court could say only

1158
01:06:58,853 --> 01:07:03,973
Speaker 3: weekend issue nationwide injunctions. That would be fine because I

1159
01:07:04,013 --> 01:07:05,893
Speaker 3: can tell you what the Republicans will learn from this.

1160
01:07:05,973 --> 01:07:08,293
Speaker 3: They will learn to appoint a bunch of district court

1161
01:07:08,453 --> 01:07:11,213
Speaker 3: judges so that when the Democrats are next in, the

1162
01:07:11,293 --> 01:07:14,693
Speaker 3: judges block everything they try to do. And the normal

1163
01:07:14,773 --> 01:07:17,293
Speaker 3: rule is that the left does things aggressively and the

1164
01:07:17,373 --> 01:07:19,893
Speaker 3: right doesn't at first, and then the right does too

1165
01:07:19,973 --> 01:07:22,653
Speaker 3: it's like the blocking and getting rid of the filibuster,

1166
01:07:23,213 --> 01:07:25,813
Speaker 3: and any any Republican with the brain is going to say, okay,

1167
01:07:25,813 --> 01:07:28,493
Speaker 3: well we'll do this too. You will get nothing through.

1168
01:07:29,213 --> 01:07:32,133
Speaker 3: And it's it's there's no democratic theory in the world

1169
01:07:32,133 --> 01:07:34,573
Speaker 3: that thinks it's a good idea to be able to

1170
01:07:34,613 --> 01:07:37,253
Speaker 3: look around at seven hundred odd judges and find one

1171
01:07:37,373 --> 01:07:40,493
Speaker 3: and they've all been appointed by Democrats to issue these

1172
01:07:40,853 --> 01:07:47,093
Speaker 3: Trump blocking injunctions. At the very least, you ought to

1173
01:07:47,133 --> 01:07:49,933
Speaker 3: have gone up and had a full panel of the

1174
01:07:50,293 --> 01:07:53,573
Speaker 3: one of the Circuit Court of Appeals. But again, maybe

1175
01:07:53,573 --> 01:07:55,613
Speaker 3: even only the U. Supreme Court should be able to

1176
01:07:55,693 --> 01:07:59,453
Speaker 3: enjoin the executive because if they don't have our Westminster system,

1177
01:07:59,493 --> 01:08:03,533
Speaker 3: they have a they have an overt separation of power system.

1178
01:08:03,613 --> 01:08:07,853
Speaker 3: Right in the constitution. The executive is the president, so

1179
01:08:08,533 --> 01:08:12,613
Speaker 3: you don't so the constitution override statutes. If the president

1180
01:08:12,653 --> 01:08:15,533
Speaker 3: wants to do something that's part of the executive power,

1181
01:08:16,413 --> 01:08:19,693
Speaker 3: he gets to do it. And so I'm waiting to

1182
01:08:19,693 --> 01:08:21,613
Speaker 3: see what the Supreme Court was. I think that Amy

1183
01:08:21,693 --> 01:08:24,813
Speaker 3: Conant Bearer will come back when it gets to be

1184
01:08:24,893 --> 01:08:29,453
Speaker 3: the full non temporary injunction. And if she comes back,

1185
01:08:29,493 --> 01:08:32,213
Speaker 3: then the amazing thing about Roberts is he might flip

1186
01:08:32,253 --> 01:08:36,653
Speaker 3: over to you know, he doesn't like being in the minority.

1187
01:08:36,733 --> 01:08:39,373
Speaker 3: I think he got pilloried a lot in Daubs. That's

1188
01:08:39,893 --> 01:08:41,933
Speaker 3: you know. I think that was the right decision. Whatever

1189
01:08:41,973 --> 01:08:47,093
Speaker 3: you think about abortion, nothing in the US Constitution stopped

1190
01:08:47,853 --> 01:08:51,413
Speaker 3: state governments from legislating one way or another. And ironically,

1191
01:08:51,453 --> 01:08:54,453
Speaker 3: after all the scaremongering, it turned out it didn't cost

1192
01:08:54,573 --> 01:08:57,773
Speaker 3: Trump the election, and there are basically the same number

1193
01:08:57,813 --> 01:09:01,053
Speaker 3: of abortions in the US today than there was before.

1194
01:09:01,373 --> 01:09:04,493
Speaker 3: Because if you live in California, the rules have loosened,

1195
01:09:04,493 --> 01:09:06,613
Speaker 3: and if you live in Mississippi they've gotten a bit tighter.

1196
01:09:07,653 --> 01:09:09,533
Speaker 3: So if you're a woman Mississippi, it is true you

1197
01:09:09,533 --> 01:09:12,213
Speaker 3: have to take get in the car and drive over

1198
01:09:12,253 --> 01:09:15,653
Speaker 3: state lines. But that's called democracy. You know. You can't

1199
01:09:15,653 --> 01:09:18,973
Speaker 3: expect every policy to go your way. I'd like I'd

1200
01:09:19,013 --> 01:09:21,493
Speaker 3: like a few to go my way here in Australia,

1201
01:09:21,533 --> 01:09:24,853
Speaker 3: but not getting too much going our way right now?

1202
01:09:25,013 --> 01:09:26,253
Speaker 2: Where do you keep at it?

1203
01:09:27,213 --> 01:09:27,813
Speaker 3: All? Right? Thank you?

1204
01:09:28,853 --> 01:09:31,013
Speaker 2: I leave you with one thing to ponder. I'm looking

1205
01:09:31,093 --> 01:09:34,413
Speaker 2: at I'm looking at the back cover of the spine

1206
01:09:34,453 --> 01:09:40,333
Speaker 2: of a book on my shelf. Scalia. If Anthony Scalia

1207
01:09:40,733 --> 01:09:44,293
Speaker 2: was the chief Justice of the Supreme Court, what a

1208
01:09:44,333 --> 01:09:46,613
Speaker 2: wonderfully different world it would be.

1209
01:09:47,613 --> 01:09:49,573
Speaker 3: That is true, But you know what, I have moved.

1210
01:09:49,573 --> 01:09:52,333
Speaker 3: I've always liked Spilia, but I now think Clarence Thomas

1211
01:09:52,413 --> 01:09:53,933
Speaker 3: is even better.

1212
01:09:54,333 --> 01:09:57,293
Speaker 2: Well, guess what's next door to Scalia, Clarence Town.

1213
01:09:57,973 --> 01:10:00,333
Speaker 3: Yeah, that's a good that's a good autobiography he wrote

1214
01:10:00,333 --> 01:10:01,013
Speaker 3: about himself.

1215
01:10:01,613 --> 01:10:02,253
Speaker 2: I haven't read it.

1216
01:10:02,453 --> 01:10:04,253
Speaker 3: You know what he made. He made a mistake at

1217
01:10:04,253 --> 01:10:07,773
Speaker 3: the front cover that many many people make where they

1218
01:10:07,853 --> 01:10:10,893
Speaker 3: he quote the famous line from Robert Frost. Two roads

1219
01:10:10,933 --> 01:10:13,573
Speaker 3: diverged in the wood, and I took the one less

1220
01:10:13,613 --> 01:10:16,133
Speaker 3: traveled by, And that has made all the difference. And

1221
01:10:16,333 --> 01:10:18,813
Speaker 3: I used to think the same as everyone else that

1222
01:10:19,333 --> 01:10:21,333
Speaker 3: you know, that meant you have made choices in life,

1223
01:10:21,333 --> 01:10:23,973
Speaker 3: and that really affected how you played your life played out.

1224
01:10:24,253 --> 01:10:27,373
Speaker 3: And my wife and I went with friends to Vermont

1225
01:10:27,413 --> 01:10:29,973
Speaker 3: and hiked from ind to ind and we got to

1226
01:10:30,053 --> 01:10:32,893
Speaker 3: the Robert Frost area. And it turns out when you

1227
01:10:32,933 --> 01:10:37,053
Speaker 3: read the entire poem, not just the last stanza, Frost

1228
01:10:37,213 --> 01:10:39,733
Speaker 3: actually was saying, it doesn't matter what choice you make,

1229
01:10:39,773 --> 01:10:42,293
Speaker 3: it's all going to turn out the same. And It's

1230
01:10:42,333 --> 01:10:44,813
Speaker 3: just one of those poems where when you read the

1231
01:10:44,853 --> 01:10:47,213
Speaker 3: whole thing you just go, oh god, I've had this

1232
01:10:47,293 --> 01:10:52,013
Speaker 3: wrong the whole time. It's quite bracing. It was quite

1233
01:10:52,013 --> 01:10:55,333
Speaker 3: a clever poem by Robert Frost. It's it's a bit disappointing,

1234
01:10:55,333 --> 01:10:55,933
Speaker 3: but it's clever.

1235
01:10:57,133 --> 01:11:00,973
Speaker 2: So The Age of Foolishness A Dati's Guide to Constitutionalism

1236
01:11:01,053 --> 01:11:04,853
Speaker 2: in a modern Democracy. I'm going to order it's.

1237
01:11:07,493 --> 01:11:09,973
Speaker 3: The more the merry I can, I can keep my

1238
01:11:10,093 --> 01:11:13,573
Speaker 3: wife and the lifestyle she deserves.

1239
01:11:14,693 --> 01:11:19,733
Speaker 2: I better pay double then. All right, Jim outstanding, outstanding, great,

1240
01:11:19,773 --> 01:11:21,013
Speaker 2: thank you all by.

1241
01:11:38,853 --> 01:11:38,933
Speaker 1: Well.

1242
01:11:38,973 --> 01:11:41,293
Speaker 2: I think you've got to agree that the Jim Allen

1243
01:11:41,613 --> 01:11:46,253
Speaker 2: is not just informative but incredibly entertaining as well, and

1244
01:11:46,333 --> 01:11:48,293
Speaker 2: it's always a pleasure to have him on the podcast,

1245
01:11:49,373 --> 01:11:53,093
Speaker 2: as we will continue to do so. The only thing

1246
01:11:53,173 --> 01:11:56,173
Speaker 2: left to be said at this point is that missus

1247
01:11:56,173 --> 01:12:00,373
Speaker 2: producer and I wish you a very merry Christmas, stay safe,

1248
01:12:00,933 --> 01:12:05,613
Speaker 2: and we shall present you with another replay in well

1249
01:12:05,693 --> 01:12:09,093
Speaker 2: on the twenty fourth, actually the Davy Call Christmas.

1250
01:12:17,133 --> 01:12:20,813
Speaker 1: Thank you for more from News Talks at b listen

1251
01:12:20,893 --> 01:12:23,853
Speaker 1: live on air or online, and keep our shows with

1252
01:12:23,933 --> 01:12:27,093
Speaker 1: you wherever you go. With our podcasts on iHeartRadio.