Speaker 1: Kilda.
Speaker 2: I'm Chelsea Daniels and This is the Front Page, a
Speaker 2: daily podcast presented by The New Zealand Herald. It's been
Speaker 2: revealed that police ignored sex allegations against a former top
Speaker 2: cop and instead prosecuted a woman for revenge emails. The
Speaker 2: woman had emailed police, politicians and newsrooms accusing former Deputy
Speaker 2: Police Commissioner Jevin mcskimming of being a sexual predator. The
Speaker 2: Police watchdog has released a scathing one hundred and thirty
Speaker 2: five page report into how the allegations were treated and
Speaker 2: how the ambitions of a senior police officer were put
Speaker 2: above the interests of a vulnerable woman. Police Commissioner Richard
Speaker 2: Chambers has said she was ignored and badly let down.
Speaker 2: He said it makes four appalling reading and the conduct
Speaker 2: of the former top brass is inexcusable. He was briefed
Speaker 2: about the situation just two days before he stepped into
Speaker 2: the role, and during the course of the investigation, detectives
Speaker 2: discovered mcskimming had used his work devices to search for pornography,
Speaker 2: including beast reality and child sex exploitation material for at
Speaker 2: least five years. The fifty two year old resigned in
Speaker 2: disgrace and was later charged. He's pleaded guilty last week
Speaker 2: and will be sentenced next month. This whole ordeal has
Speaker 2: been indisputably damaging to one of the most important institutions
Speaker 2: in our country. Later, we'll speak to help Auckland's executive director,
Speaker 2: Catherine McPhillips about how to support anyone who has experienced
Speaker 2: sexual abuse. But first, someone who knows all too well
Speaker 2: what it's like to step up to those in power
Speaker 2: is law Nicholas. She alleged police officers raped her as
Speaker 2: a teen in the eighties and this resulted in criminal trials,
Speaker 2: a commission of inquiry, and an officer being jailed for
Speaker 2: attempting to pervert the course of justice. She is a
Speaker 2: campaigner for victims of sexual assault and joins us now
Speaker 2: on the front page. First off, Louise, when you heard
Speaker 2: this news, what was your first reaction?
Speaker 1: Oh, just belief and then sadness and then anger and
Speaker 1: a bit of deja booth thrown in amongst it all.
Speaker 2: Yeah, and that deja vuo that would bring back some
Speaker 2: pretty heavy feelings for you hearing about that happening in
Speaker 2: the police force again.
Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, And I think that's that's what It was
Speaker 1: that kind of like kicked me back into that time.
Speaker 1: But I soon realized that this is it came across
Speaker 1: as this time police were actually doing something about it
Speaker 1: and not dragging the chain or dragging it out or
Speaker 1: you know, putting their hands up and saying nah, not
Speaker 1: us sort of thing. They were onto it being straight away.
Speaker 1: As soon as that IPCA report came out, it was
Speaker 1: all on.
Speaker 2: So hearing Richard Chambers and Mark Mitchell speak, was that
Speaker 2: quite a bit different than what you experienced.
Speaker 1: Yeah, absolutely absolutely. It was like I wouldn't say a
Speaker 1: breath of fresh air, but it just it gave me.
Speaker 1: It made me feel this is actually going to be
Speaker 1: okay in the long run because they are onto it.
Speaker 1: They're acknowledging the harm, they're acknowledging the survivor, they're acknowledging
Speaker 1: where police have gone wrong with that team that covered
Speaker 1: everything up. So for me, it was this is going
Speaker 1: to be okay, better sweet pretty much. Yeah.
Speaker 2: When there are questions around public trust in police, I
Speaker 2: suppose the response is usually something like, you know, these
Speaker 2: kind of things happen, that's rotten apples in the basket.
Speaker 2: But the majority, I mean, it'd be hitting the thousands
Speaker 2: of sworn and unsworn police officers, mind you pretty hard
Speaker 2: at the moment. What's your first thought when you hear
Speaker 2: statements like that?
Speaker 1: Immediately go to those that are actually doing the work
Speaker 1: and doing the work really, really well, to a point
Speaker 1: that you know, this is why our survivors are coming forward.
Speaker 1: It's because of the the empathy, the integrity that take
Speaker 1: the cop hat off and actually be human when they're
Speaker 1: dealing with our survivors that are going through this. You know,
Speaker 1: the just describes this this horror, and you've got a
Speaker 1: copper sitting there in front of them, acknowledging the harm
Speaker 1: and saying, we will do what we can and you
Speaker 1: can't be I wish that had happened way back in
Speaker 1: the day, you know, but it is happening now.
Speaker 2: The Independent Police Conduct Authority did an investigation, I suppose
Speaker 2: whether the allegations were true, and that's not their role here,
Speaker 2: but it did find police ignored the woman at the
Speaker 2: center of this, delayed the investigation, and accepted mixed Skimming's
Speaker 2: version of versions of events.
Speaker 3: What message do you.
Speaker 2: Think that that sends anyone kind of weighing up at
Speaker 2: the moment whether or not to come forward about something
Speaker 2: like this.
Speaker 1: Well, I think what we've got to remember it was
Speaker 1: senior star that took control of that investigation and when
Speaker 1: somebody from you know, underneath that came in and challenged
Speaker 1: what they were doing. That to me is the hope
Speaker 1: that New Zealanders need to remember that there's always somebody
Speaker 1: within the New Zealand place. They've got you back. They
Speaker 1: absolutely have. And when I heard that actually how it
Speaker 1: all unfolded, I thought, yeah, that you've got people that
Speaker 1: aren't the bad eggs, that are the good people that
Speaker 1: are that are helping our communities. And so for me
Speaker 1: it was a revelation of thoughts.
Speaker 3: That something's actually happening.
Speaker 1: Yeah, absolutely, that somebody's actually you know, taking the bull
Speaker 1: by the horns and bringing the people that are doing
Speaker 1: the bad to account.
Speaker 2: Yeah. I did find solace in the fact that despite
Speaker 2: I suppose the efforts efforts to keep this all covered up,
Speaker 2: there were a few staffers who made sure that it
Speaker 2: made the light of day.
Speaker 3: Judith Collins said it herself when she said was.
Speaker 4: All was some sort of group think going on, but
Speaker 4: there were thankfully at least three people, lower ranked people
Speaker 4: who stood up for what they knew was the right thing,
Speaker 4: and one of them sent this matter as the IPCA
Speaker 4: as a complaint, and without her work and their work
Speaker 4: of the others, this might never have seen the light
Speaker 4: of day.
Speaker 2: Do you wish that there were some junior staff as
Speaker 2: a woman there, lower in the ranks there in your situation.
Speaker 1: Yeah, instead of a reporter what it was, you know,
Speaker 1: And that's what it took somebody within the media to
Speaker 1: actually acknowledge and investigate and show that there was all
Speaker 1: this corruptness going on and all this harm being done
Speaker 1: to not only the South, but to how many others.
Speaker 1: And he took the ball by the horns and did
Speaker 1: something about it. And it's kind of like it's mirrored
Speaker 1: with the police that you know, the lower ranked police
Speaker 1: officers that did exactly the same thing. That is what
Speaker 1: the change has been. They believed, without a doubt, absolutely
Speaker 1: they saw that process and protocol and everything, you know,
Speaker 1: it's standard in how to investigate a disclosure of that type,
Speaker 1: and that was just shoved under and yeah, they did everything.
Speaker 1: They questioned why this wasn't happening, why are you doing this?
Speaker 1: And so because of that it brought it to the
Speaker 1: light of day.
Speaker 5: We will continue to do what is needed to ensure
Speaker 5: this does not happen again. The police have also accepted
Speaker 5: all the recommendations in the report. The Police Commissioner will
Speaker 5: speak to that and more details shortly. The New Zealand
Speaker 5: Police enjoy strong public trust and confidence. It is imperative
Speaker 5: that this trust is maintained. That comes with strong action
Speaker 5: on the part of the government. Finally, I do want
Speaker 5: to stress that these adverse findings should not be seen
Speaker 5: as a reflection on our police service as a whole.
Speaker 2: When you look back at what you've been through with
Speaker 2: the police in the past, obviously from the eighties until
Speaker 2: the early two thousands up until you know now and
Speaker 2: you now work with police, you with the sexual assault
Speaker 2: advocacy work that you do, did you personally find it
Speaker 2: difficult to regain that trust or for the police?
Speaker 1: In the beginning, absolutely trust them and I told them
Speaker 1: that to their basis, especially going through the thought process
Speaker 1: and that you know, they were wanting me to make
Speaker 1: another statement to do this, and I kept saying, no,
Speaker 1: I'm not doing that. I don't trust you, bastards was
Speaker 1: my words. But it's been over. It was a huge
Speaker 1: learning for myself and it was a conclusion that I
Speaker 1: came to that it wasn't the New Zealand police that
Speaker 1: hurt me. It was individuals with them. And it's the
Speaker 1: same for this as well. And that's why I'm advocating
Speaker 1: on you know, on behalf of those police people that
Speaker 1: I work alongside, that my team works alongside every single
Speaker 1: day right across the country, is that we're advocating for
Speaker 1: you because we know that you're doing the best that
Speaker 1: you can for our survivors. And so it wasn't you,
Speaker 1: as an individual who did what that senior do it
Speaker 1: up the ring. And that's what people need to understand.
Speaker 1: Don't define what we're skimming and those others did and say, well,
Speaker 1: every cops are saying no, no, it's not.
Speaker 2: If there is someone out there right now struggling and
Speaker 2: they want to come forward with any allegation something's happened
Speaker 2: to them, they've survived something horrific and they they felt
Speaker 2: knocked back by what's happened, and when the story came out,
Speaker 2: they kind.
Speaker 3: Of took a step back.
Speaker 2: I suppose, what would you tell them to take that
Speaker 2: couple of steps forward?
Speaker 1: Yep, please take that couple of steps forward. There are
Speaker 1: agencies right across organizations right across New Zealand that can
Speaker 1: support you. And the core thing that we have worked
Speaker 1: hard alongside police with is how do we get that
Speaker 1: first describe it. How do we get our survivors to
Speaker 1: trust in the police and in the process. And it's
Speaker 1: quite simple. It's like a meet and greet. So we
Speaker 1: meet with a detective who is in the Adult Sexual
Speaker 1: Assault team or in the child Protection team or you know,
Speaker 1: and we have that conversation. And we have done that
Speaker 1: hundreds of times and not one survivors turned around and said,
Speaker 1: I'm not doing this because it's about bringing together and
Speaker 1: helping each other. The police officer and the survivor and
Speaker 1: the FARNO actually understand what this process is all about.
Speaker 1: And it's in a safe place. It's not at the
Speaker 1: police station. It's a mutual area and yeah, that's what works.
Speaker 1: If you're unsure, pick up the phone, whether it's you
Speaker 1: rape crisis, whether it's the Luise Nicholas, trust, it doesn't
Speaker 1: matter who, and then ask the information and guidance. If
Speaker 1: we're there to guide, we're there to advocate on your
Speaker 1: behalf to do what we can. Because we know we
Speaker 1: have that lived experience, we understand the trauma. We understand that,
Speaker 1: you know, taking that keep forward into Actually I want
Speaker 1: to tell my story. How do I do that?
Speaker 3: Do you remember what was going through your head before
Speaker 3: you told your story?
Speaker 1: Yeah, I absolutely it was I can't because I need
Speaker 1: to protect everyone around me. No one's going to believe me.
Speaker 1: Look who I'm up against. You know, I'm going to
Speaker 1: be telling the story of a rape by members of
Speaker 1: the New Zealand place. Who the hell I'm going to
Speaker 1: believe me? But it was the sup thought I had
Speaker 1: with my family, especially my husband, who said that you can.
Speaker 1: You can do this because everything that has happened to
Speaker 1: you is not your fault. And that's what our survivors
Speaker 1: need to understand and appreciate that you now have an
Speaker 1: opportunity to right the wrongs of the past. And for me,
Speaker 1: when I talk to our survivors, it's I always say
Speaker 1: to them, it's not about the destination, it's the journey.
Speaker 1: And regardless of the outcome if it gets to court,
Speaker 1: regardless of the outcome, you have told you have held
Speaker 1: that person to account. You have taken back the power
Speaker 1: that was taken from you. And it's amazing how our
Speaker 1: survivors go into the process with their heads down and
Speaker 1: they walk out the other side going I did it,
Speaker 1: I did it. It is our absolutely, you can absolutely
Speaker 1: as our justice system and the way we have to
Speaker 1: go through this process. Okay, no, it's not easy. I'm
Speaker 1: not going to lie. But at the end of the day,
Speaker 1: all you can do is tell you the truth and
Speaker 1: it doesn't matter what anyone else throws at you. You
Speaker 1: can stand to you tell your truth and it's all
Speaker 1: you've got to do.
Speaker 3: Thanks so much for joining us, Louise.
Speaker 1: No worries at all. Thank you for having them Man Help.
Speaker 2: Auckland was set up in nineteen eighty two and has
Speaker 2: been a specialist provider of sexual abuse support services in
Speaker 2: Tatnicke Makodo ever since. Executive director Katherine McPhillips is a
Speaker 2: clinical psychologist and joins us now on the front page. So, Catherine,
Speaker 2: what was your first reaction when you heard the details
Speaker 2: about the woman at the center.
Speaker 3: Of all this.
Speaker 6: Well, you know, first reaction is to feel empathy for her.
Speaker 6: To be honest, she's been through a terrible ordeal over
Speaker 6: some years, through all of this, but I have to
Speaker 6: say it's not an uncommon story, not in terms of
Speaker 6: you know, the nature of the role of the person
Speaker 6: who was hurting her or you know, all of the
Speaker 6: investigation that followed. But certainly men in positions of power.
Speaker 6: It's not uncommon for us to hear kind of stories
Speaker 6: where where women are victimized over quite a period of
Speaker 6: time and try to get out of those situations or
Speaker 6: alert other people to it and don't get listened to.
Speaker 2: How do you think sexual assault survivors felt at hearing
Speaker 2: about this case, Well.
Speaker 6: You know, really concerned that it will diminish people's trust
Speaker 6: in the police and make people feel, you know, even
Speaker 6: more unsafe to go and report to police.
Speaker 7: It's it's a really hard thing to do to do
Speaker 7: that anyway, and.
Speaker 6: This kind of you know, finding out about this kind
Speaker 6: of thing having occurred just you know, not just that down.
Speaker 6: And to be honest, we've you know, New Zealand's been
Speaker 6: quite slow to get up our reporting and you know
Speaker 6: we've only just in the last year or so been
Speaker 6: getting those reporting rapes up. So, you know, my concern
Speaker 6: is that it will lead people to feel concerned that
Speaker 6: they won't be listened to, they won't be heard, and you.
Speaker 7: Know that they'll be blamed for what's happened to them,
Speaker 7: and so yeah.
Speaker 6: I think it's really important that people understand that there
Speaker 6: are support services in place, so services like help where
Speaker 6: I am, there's services right across the country. So if
Speaker 6: you go to a police station to make a complaint
Speaker 6: of sexual assault, you know that there is an independent
Speaker 6: support person there with you through that process, and that
Speaker 6: those services available to you for as long as you
Speaker 6: need them.
Speaker 7: And you know that's a you.
Speaker 6: Know, we're there to ensure that or kind of to
Speaker 6: promote people's well being through the process, but that certainly
Speaker 6: can involve talking with the police if things are going astray.
Speaker 6: You know, we work with police every day, so we
Speaker 6: have those kind of relationships where we are able to ask, oh,
Speaker 6: you know, why is that happening, and you know, be in.
Speaker 7: That place to support people.
Speaker 6: So I really want to know that you're not only
Speaker 6: trusting the police if you want to make those complaints,
Speaker 6: but there are independent support people there as well.
Speaker 1: I want to apologize to the woman at the center
Speaker 1: of this for the repeated early failures in following the
Speaker 1: proper processes investigating this matter by those at such a
Speaker 1: senior level of police. You had asked for help, you
Speaker 1: would badly let down. That was unacceptable.
Speaker 2: What are some of the biggest barriers in general for
Speaker 2: people to come forward other than I mean, I guess
Speaker 2: it would be really scary going to police in the
Speaker 2: first place.
Speaker 7: Hey, yeah, it's really scary.
Speaker 6: But you know, big barrier is that you don't expect
Speaker 6: to be believed often, you know, that's the nature of grooming,
Speaker 6: that's the nature of sexual violence, and you know, that's
Speaker 6: why it's so important that people who are responding to
Speaker 6: complaints really do understand the dynamics that a lot of time,
Speaker 6: what that grooman does is, you know, the person causing
Speaker 6: harm will do things and say things to diminish the
Speaker 6: person or you know, as appears to have occurred in
Speaker 6: this situation.
Speaker 7: They groom the environment that they're in.
Speaker 6: So, you know, an example of that here is that
Speaker 6: you know that you talk negatively about the person before
Speaker 6: they've even made a complaint, so that when that complaint
Speaker 6: comes in.
Speaker 7: The person isn't believed.
Speaker 6: You know, that's a really really common dynamic of sexual violence,
Speaker 6: and so you know, we really need to make sure
Speaker 6: that the people responsible for responding to complaints, you know,
Speaker 6: are always informed about those dynamics and certainly, the you know,
Speaker 6: the sex assault police teams at the front Light are
Speaker 6: informed about those but you know, one you know, reading
Speaker 6: the IPCA report, you have to question whether the police
Speaker 6: hire up.
Speaker 7: We're well informed about those dynamics.
Speaker 2: If someone was to come to you for advice and
Speaker 2: they had been sitting on something and they were ready
Speaker 2: to come forward, but then they see something like this
Speaker 2: happening and it kind of you know, pushes them back
Speaker 2: a little bit, what kind of advice would you give them?
Speaker 6: Yeah, I mean, so we would talk to them about
Speaker 6: what they needed to feel safe.
Speaker 7: I mean, it's always their decision.
Speaker 6: There's no pressure from us about whether you report or
Speaker 6: don't report, because it really has to be the.
Speaker 7: Individual's decision on that.
Speaker 6: But really, I mean the kinds of things that we
Speaker 6: would do is talk with them through their worries, talk
Speaker 6: with them about how those worries might be addressed. You know,
Speaker 6: if they wanted to make that complaint, then we would
Speaker 6: make sure that we were with them and you know,
Speaker 6: fully able to support them through the process.
Speaker 7: But it really is an individual decision, and.
Speaker 6: You know, I think that that can be hard sometimes
Speaker 6: for friends and family to understand.
Speaker 7: They're like, well, why aren't you reporting? Why don't you're reporting?
Speaker 7: But it is a tough process.
Speaker 6: You have to talk about things which can feel shaving
Speaker 6: and that are very intimate, and you know, the reality is,
Speaker 6: you know we see from things like the Gender Attitudes
Speaker 6: Survey for example, you know there are lots of New
Speaker 6: Zealanders who do don't blame people who are victims of
Speaker 6: sexual assaultants. So there is always that wondering and so
Speaker 6: you know, people really have to make that decision themselves
Speaker 6: about whether they want to go forward with a complaint
Speaker 6: or not.
Speaker 2: And I suppose psychologically as well bringing up those things
Speaker 2: and speaking about them, I guess people may not understand
Speaker 2: that PTSD you actually feel those emotions, You feel like
Speaker 2: you did at the time that it happens. So it
Speaker 2: doesn't matter whether it's a couple of years, a couple
Speaker 2: of months, or a couple of decades afterwards, right.
Speaker 6: Yes, absolutely, absolutely, so thinking about it can you know,
Speaker 6: we call that an internal trigger that can.
Speaker 7: Take you back to those feelings.
Speaker 6: But certainly being in a situation where somebody's asking you
Speaker 6: about it can put you back in that place, or
Speaker 6: even if there's dynamics going on that just remind you
Speaker 6: of those experiences, and so you know that's the reason
Speaker 6: for those independence support people being there is that we
Speaker 6: can help people get through that process keeping their well
Speaker 6: being as intact as possible.
Speaker 2: And I suppose Fano and friends can come to you
Speaker 2: as well for advice if they have somebody close to
Speaker 2: them who has experienced this or is going through something
Speaker 2: like this.
Speaker 6: Absolutely, we welcome our friends and Fano coming to us
Speaker 6: because you know, we're in people's lives for a short
Speaker 6: period of time. Your friends and your family are around
Speaker 6: your long term, so the better equipped that they are
Speaker 6: to support survivors are the better.
Speaker 3: Thank you so much for joining us, Catherine.
Speaker 7: Thanks Chelsea.
Speaker 2: That's it for this episode of the Front Page. You
Speaker 2: can read more about today's stories and extensive news coverage
Speaker 2: at enzadherld dot co dot nz. The Front Page is
Speaker 2: produced by Jane Yee and Richard Martin, who's also our editor.
Speaker 3: I'm Chelsea Daniels.
Speaker 2: Subscribe to the Front Page on iHeartRadio or wherever you
Speaker 2: get your.
Speaker 3: Podcasts, and tune in tomorrow for another look behind the headlines.
Speaker 7: Four