WEBVTT - McSkimming scandal: How there is hope for survivors in those who spoke up

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<v Speaker 1>Kilda.

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<v Speaker 2>I'm Chelsea Daniels and This is the Front Page, a

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<v Speaker 2>daily podcast presented by The New Zealand Herald. It's been

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<v Speaker 2>revealed that police ignored sex allegations against a former top

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<v Speaker 2>cop and instead prosecuted a woman for revenge emails. The

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<v Speaker 2>woman had emailed police, politicians and newsrooms accusing former Deputy

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<v Speaker 2>Police Commissioner Jevin mcskimming of being a sexual predator. The

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<v Speaker 2>Police watchdog has released a scathing one hundred and thirty

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<v Speaker 2>five page report into how the allegations were treated and

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<v Speaker 2>how the ambitions of a senior police officer were put

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<v Speaker 2>above the interests of a vulnerable woman. Police Commissioner Richard

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<v Speaker 2>Chambers has said she was ignored and badly let down.

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<v Speaker 2>He said it makes four appalling reading and the conduct

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<v Speaker 2>of the former top brass is inexcusable. He was briefed

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<v Speaker 2>about the situation just two days before he stepped into

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<v Speaker 2>the role, and during the course of the investigation, detectives

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<v Speaker 2>discovered mcskimming had used his work devices to search for pornography,

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<v Speaker 2>including beast reality and child sex exploitation material for at

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<v Speaker 2>least five years. The fifty two year old resigned in

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<v Speaker 2>disgrace and was later charged. He's pleaded guilty last week

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<v Speaker 2>and will be sentenced next month. This whole ordeal has

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<v Speaker 2>been indisputably damaging to one of the most important institutions

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<v Speaker 2>in our country. Later, we'll speak to help Auckland's executive director,

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<v Speaker 2>Catherine McPhillips about how to support anyone who has experienced

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<v Speaker 2>sexual abuse. But first, someone who knows all too well

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<v Speaker 2>what it's like to step up to those in power

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<v Speaker 2>is law Nicholas. She alleged police officers raped her as

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<v Speaker 2>a teen in the eighties and this resulted in criminal trials,

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<v Speaker 2>a commission of inquiry, and an officer being jailed for

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<v Speaker 2>attempting to pervert the course of justice. She is a

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<v Speaker 2>campaigner for victims of sexual assault and joins us now

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<v Speaker 2>on the front page. First off, Louise, when you heard

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<v Speaker 2>this news, what was your first reaction?

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<v Speaker 1>Oh, just belief and then sadness and then anger and

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<v Speaker 1>a bit of deja booth thrown in amongst it all.

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<v Speaker 2>Yeah, and that deja vuo that would bring back some

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<v Speaker 2>pretty heavy feelings for you hearing about that happening in

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<v Speaker 2>the police force again.

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<v Speaker 1>Yeah, yeah, And I think that's that's what It was

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<v Speaker 1>that kind of like kicked me back into that time.

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<v Speaker 1>But I soon realized that this is it came across

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<v Speaker 1>as this time police were actually doing something about it

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<v Speaker 1>and not dragging the chain or dragging it out or

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<v Speaker 1>you know, putting their hands up and saying nah, not

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<v Speaker 1>us sort of thing. They were onto it being straight away.

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<v Speaker 1>As soon as that IPCA report came out, it was

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<v Speaker 1>all on.

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<v Speaker 2>So hearing Richard Chambers and Mark Mitchell speak, was that

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<v Speaker 2>quite a bit different than what you experienced.

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<v Speaker 1>Yeah, absolutely absolutely. It was like I wouldn't say a

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<v Speaker 1>breath of fresh air, but it just it gave me.

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<v Speaker 1>It made me feel this is actually going to be

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<v Speaker 1>okay in the long run because they are onto it.

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<v Speaker 1>They're acknowledging the harm, they're acknowledging the survivor, they're acknowledging

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<v Speaker 1>where police have gone wrong with that team that covered

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<v Speaker 1>everything up. So for me, it was this is going

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<v Speaker 1>to be okay, better sweet pretty much. Yeah.

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<v Speaker 2>When there are questions around public trust in police, I

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<v Speaker 2>suppose the response is usually something like, you know, these

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<v Speaker 2>kind of things happen, that's rotten apples in the basket.

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<v Speaker 2>But the majority, I mean, it'd be hitting the thousands

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<v Speaker 2>of sworn and unsworn police officers, mind you pretty hard

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<v Speaker 2>at the moment. What's your first thought when you hear

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<v Speaker 2>statements like that?

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<v Speaker 1>Immediately go to those that are actually doing the work

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<v Speaker 1>and doing the work really, really well, to a point

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<v Speaker 1>that you know, this is why our survivors are coming forward.

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<v Speaker 1>It's because of the the empathy, the integrity that take

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<v Speaker 1>the cop hat off and actually be human when they're

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<v Speaker 1>dealing with our survivors that are going through this. You know,

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<v Speaker 1>the just describes this this horror, and you've got a

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<v Speaker 1>copper sitting there in front of them, acknowledging the harm

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<v Speaker 1>and saying, we will do what we can and you

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<v Speaker 1>can't be I wish that had happened way back in

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<v Speaker 1>the day, you know, but it is happening now.

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<v Speaker 2>The Independent Police Conduct Authority did an investigation, I suppose

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<v Speaker 2>whether the allegations were true, and that's not their role here,

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<v Speaker 2>but it did find police ignored the woman at the

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<v Speaker 2>center of this, delayed the investigation, and accepted mixed Skimming's

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<v Speaker 2>version of versions of events.

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<v Speaker 3>What message do you.

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<v Speaker 2>Think that that sends anyone kind of weighing up at

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<v Speaker 2>the moment whether or not to come forward about something

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<v Speaker 2>like this.

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<v Speaker 1>Well, I think what we've got to remember it was

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<v Speaker 1>senior star that took control of that investigation and when

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<v Speaker 1>somebody from you know, underneath that came in and challenged

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<v Speaker 1>what they were doing. That to me is the hope

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<v Speaker 1>that New Zealanders need to remember that there's always somebody

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<v Speaker 1>within the New Zealand place. They've got you back. They

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<v Speaker 1>absolutely have. And when I heard that actually how it

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<v Speaker 1>all unfolded, I thought, yeah, that you've got people that

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<v Speaker 1>aren't the bad eggs, that are the good people that

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<v Speaker 1>are that are helping our communities. And so for me

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<v Speaker 1>it was a revelation of thoughts.

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<v Speaker 3>That something's actually happening.

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<v Speaker 1>Yeah, absolutely, that somebody's actually you know, taking the bull

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<v Speaker 1>by the horns and bringing the people that are doing

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<v Speaker 1>the bad to account.

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<v Speaker 2>Yeah. I did find solace in the fact that despite

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<v Speaker 2>I suppose the efforts efforts to keep this all covered up,

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<v Speaker 2>there were a few staffers who made sure that it

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<v Speaker 2>made the light of day.

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<v Speaker 3>Judith Collins said it herself when she said was.

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<v Speaker 4>All was some sort of group think going on, but

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<v Speaker 4>there were thankfully at least three people, lower ranked people

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<v Speaker 4>who stood up for what they knew was the right thing,

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<v Speaker 4>and one of them sent this matter as the IPCA

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<v Speaker 4>as a complaint, and without her work and their work

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<v Speaker 4>of the others, this might never have seen the light

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<v Speaker 4>of day.

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<v Speaker 2>Do you wish that there were some junior staff as

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<v Speaker 2>a woman there, lower in the ranks there in your situation.

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<v Speaker 1>Yeah, instead of a reporter what it was, you know,

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<v Speaker 1>And that's what it took somebody within the media to

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<v Speaker 1>actually acknowledge and investigate and show that there was all

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<v Speaker 1>this corruptness going on and all this harm being done

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<v Speaker 1>to not only the South, but to how many others.

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<v Speaker 1>And he took the ball by the horns and did

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<v Speaker 1>something about it. And it's kind of like it's mirrored

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<v Speaker 1>with the police that you know, the lower ranked police

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<v Speaker 1>officers that did exactly the same thing. That is what

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<v Speaker 1>the change has been. They believed, without a doubt, absolutely

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<v Speaker 1>they saw that process and protocol and everything, you know,

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<v Speaker 1>it's standard in how to investigate a disclosure of that type,

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<v Speaker 1>and that was just shoved under and yeah, they did everything.

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<v Speaker 1>They questioned why this wasn't happening, why are you doing this?

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<v Speaker 1>And so because of that it brought it to the

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<v Speaker 1>light of day.

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<v Speaker 5>We will continue to do what is needed to ensure

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<v Speaker 5>this does not happen again. The police have also accepted

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<v Speaker 5>all the recommendations in the report. The Police Commissioner will

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<v Speaker 5>speak to that and more details shortly. The New Zealand

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<v Speaker 5>Police enjoy strong public trust and confidence. It is imperative

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<v Speaker 5>that this trust is maintained. That comes with strong action

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<v Speaker 5>on the part of the government. Finally, I do want

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<v Speaker 5>to stress that these adverse findings should not be seen

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<v Speaker 5>as a reflection on our police service as a whole.

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<v Speaker 2>When you look back at what you've been through with

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<v Speaker 2>the police in the past, obviously from the eighties until

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<v Speaker 2>the early two thousands up until you know now and

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<v Speaker 2>you now work with police, you with the sexual assault

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<v Speaker 2>advocacy work that you do, did you personally find it

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<v Speaker 2>difficult to regain that trust or for the police?

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<v Speaker 1>In the beginning, absolutely trust them and I told them

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<v Speaker 1>that to their basis, especially going through the thought process

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<v Speaker 1>and that you know, they were wanting me to make

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<v Speaker 1>another statement to do this, and I kept saying, no,

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<v Speaker 1>I'm not doing that. I don't trust you, bastards was

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<v Speaker 1>my words. But it's been over. It was a huge

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<v Speaker 1>learning for myself and it was a conclusion that I

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<v Speaker 1>came to that it wasn't the New Zealand police that

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<v Speaker 1>hurt me. It was individuals with them. And it's the

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<v Speaker 1>same for this as well. And that's why I'm advocating

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<v Speaker 1>on you know, on behalf of those police people that

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<v Speaker 1>I work alongside, that my team works alongside every single

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<v Speaker 1>day right across the country, is that we're advocating for

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<v Speaker 1>you because we know that you're doing the best that

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<v Speaker 1>you can for our survivors. And so it wasn't you,

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<v Speaker 1>as an individual who did what that senior do it

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<v Speaker 1>up the ring. And that's what people need to understand.

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<v Speaker 1>Don't define what we're skimming and those others did and say, well,

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<v Speaker 1>every cops are saying no, no, it's not.

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<v Speaker 2>If there is someone out there right now struggling and

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<v Speaker 2>they want to come forward with any allegation something's happened

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<v Speaker 2>to them, they've survived something horrific and they they felt

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<v Speaker 2>knocked back by what's happened, and when the story came out,

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<v Speaker 2>they kind.

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<v Speaker 3>Of took a step back.

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<v Speaker 2>I suppose, what would you tell them to take that

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<v Speaker 2>couple of steps forward?

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<v Speaker 1>Yep, please take that couple of steps forward. There are

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<v Speaker 1>agencies right across organizations right across New Zealand that can

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<v Speaker 1>support you. And the core thing that we have worked

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<v Speaker 1>hard alongside police with is how do we get that

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<v Speaker 1>first describe it. How do we get our survivors to

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<v Speaker 1>trust in the police and in the process. And it's

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<v Speaker 1>quite simple. It's like a meet and greet. So we

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<v Speaker 1>meet with a detective who is in the Adult Sexual

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<v Speaker 1>Assault team or in the child Protection team or you know,

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<v Speaker 1>and we have that conversation. And we have done that

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<v Speaker 1>hundreds of times and not one survivors turned around and said,

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<v Speaker 1>I'm not doing this because it's about bringing together and

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<v Speaker 1>helping each other. The police officer and the survivor and

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<v Speaker 1>the FARNO actually understand what this process is all about.

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<v Speaker 1>And it's in a safe place. It's not at the

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<v Speaker 1>police station. It's a mutual area and yeah, that's what works.

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<v Speaker 1>If you're unsure, pick up the phone, whether it's you

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<v Speaker 1>rape crisis, whether it's the Luise Nicholas, trust, it doesn't

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<v Speaker 1>matter who, and then ask the information and guidance. If

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<v Speaker 1>we're there to guide, we're there to advocate on your

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<v Speaker 1>behalf to do what we can. Because we know we

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<v Speaker 1>have that lived experience, we understand the trauma. We understand that,

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<v Speaker 1>you know, taking that keep forward into Actually I want

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<v Speaker 1>to tell my story. How do I do that?

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<v Speaker 3>Do you remember what was going through your head before

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<v Speaker 3>you told your story?

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<v Speaker 1>Yeah, I absolutely it was I can't because I need

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<v Speaker 1>to protect everyone around me. No one's going to believe me.

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<v Speaker 1>Look who I'm up against. You know, I'm going to

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<v Speaker 1>be telling the story of a rape by members of

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<v Speaker 1>the New Zealand place. Who the hell I'm going to

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<v Speaker 1>believe me? But it was the sup thought I had

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<v Speaker 1>with my family, especially my husband, who said that you can.

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<v Speaker 1>You can do this because everything that has happened to

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<v Speaker 1>you is not your fault. And that's what our survivors

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<v Speaker 1>need to understand and appreciate that you now have an

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<v Speaker 1>opportunity to right the wrongs of the past. And for me,

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<v Speaker 1>when I talk to our survivors, it's I always say

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<v Speaker 1>to them, it's not about the destination, it's the journey.

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<v Speaker 1>And regardless of the outcome if it gets to court,

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<v Speaker 1>regardless of the outcome, you have told you have held

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<v Speaker 1>that person to account. You have taken back the power

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<v Speaker 1>that was taken from you. And it's amazing how our

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<v Speaker 1>survivors go into the process with their heads down and

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<v Speaker 1>they walk out the other side going I did it,

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<v Speaker 1>I did it. It is our absolutely, you can absolutely

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<v Speaker 1>as our justice system and the way we have to

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<v Speaker 1>go through this process. Okay, no, it's not easy. I'm

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<v Speaker 1>not going to lie. But at the end of the day,

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<v Speaker 1>all you can do is tell you the truth and

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<v Speaker 1>it doesn't matter what anyone else throws at you. You

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<v Speaker 1>can stand to you tell your truth and it's all

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<v Speaker 1>you've got to do.

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<v Speaker 3>Thanks so much for joining us, Louise.

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<v Speaker 1>No worries at all. Thank you for having them Man Help.

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<v Speaker 2>Auckland was set up in nineteen eighty two and has

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<v Speaker 2>been a specialist provider of sexual abuse support services in

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<v Speaker 2>Tatnicke Makodo ever since. Executive director Katherine McPhillips is a

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<v Speaker 2>clinical psychologist and joins us now on the front page. So, Catherine,

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<v Speaker 2>what was your first reaction when you heard the details

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<v Speaker 2>about the woman at the center.

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<v Speaker 3>Of all this.

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<v Speaker 6>Well, you know, first reaction is to feel empathy for her.

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<v Speaker 6>To be honest, she's been through a terrible ordeal over

0:15:48.880 --> 0:15:52.720
<v Speaker 6>some years, through all of this, but I have to

0:15:52.720 --> 0:15:56.200
<v Speaker 6>say it's not an uncommon story, not in terms of

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<v Speaker 6>you know, the nature of the role of the person

0:16:01.440 --> 0:16:05.600
<v Speaker 6>who was hurting her or you know, all of the

0:16:05.600 --> 0:16:09.800
<v Speaker 6>investigation that followed. But certainly men in positions of power.

0:16:09.840 --> 0:16:12.840
<v Speaker 6>It's not uncommon for us to hear kind of stories

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<v Speaker 6>where where women are victimized over quite a period of

0:16:16.120 --> 0:16:19.480
<v Speaker 6>time and try to get out of those situations or

0:16:19.520 --> 0:16:22.320
<v Speaker 6>alert other people to it and don't get listened to.

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<v Speaker 2>How do you think sexual assault survivors felt at hearing

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<v Speaker 2>about this case, Well.

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<v Speaker 6>You know, really concerned that it will diminish people's trust

0:16:33.240 --> 0:16:37.000
<v Speaker 6>in the police and make people feel, you know, even

0:16:37.040 --> 0:16:39.360
<v Speaker 6>more unsafe to go and report to police.

0:16:39.400 --> 0:16:42.200
<v Speaker 7>It's it's a really hard thing to do to do

0:16:42.280 --> 0:16:43.120
<v Speaker 7>that anyway, and.

0:16:43.080 --> 0:16:46.080
<v Speaker 6>This kind of you know, finding out about this kind

0:16:46.080 --> 0:16:49.800
<v Speaker 6>of thing having occurred just you know, not just that down.

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<v Speaker 6>And to be honest, we've you know, New Zealand's been

0:16:52.640 --> 0:16:54.760
<v Speaker 6>quite slow to get up our reporting and you know

0:16:54.800 --> 0:16:56.720
<v Speaker 6>we've only just in the last year or so been

0:16:56.720 --> 0:16:59.920
<v Speaker 6>getting those reporting rapes up. So, you know, my concern

0:17:00.160 --> 0:17:03.040
<v Speaker 6>is that it will lead people to feel concerned that

0:17:03.080 --> 0:17:05.400
<v Speaker 6>they won't be listened to, they won't be heard, and you.

0:17:05.359 --> 0:17:07.720
<v Speaker 7>Know that they'll be blamed for what's happened to them,

0:17:07.840 --> 0:17:10.000
<v Speaker 7>and so yeah.

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<v Speaker 6>I think it's really important that people understand that there

0:17:13.480 --> 0:17:17.760
<v Speaker 6>are support services in place, so services like help where

0:17:17.800 --> 0:17:21.080
<v Speaker 6>I am, there's services right across the country. So if

0:17:21.080 --> 0:17:23.280
<v Speaker 6>you go to a police station to make a complaint

0:17:23.320 --> 0:17:26.120
<v Speaker 6>of sexual assault, you know that there is an independent

0:17:26.800 --> 0:17:29.560
<v Speaker 6>support person there with you through that process, and that

0:17:29.640 --> 0:17:32.439
<v Speaker 6>those services available to you for as long as you

0:17:32.520 --> 0:17:33.800
<v Speaker 6>need them.

0:17:34.160 --> 0:17:36.120
<v Speaker 7>And you know that's a you.

0:17:36.080 --> 0:17:40.399
<v Speaker 6>Know, we're there to ensure that or kind of to

0:17:40.400 --> 0:17:43.320
<v Speaker 6>promote people's well being through the process, but that certainly

0:17:43.400 --> 0:17:46.800
<v Speaker 6>can involve talking with the police if things are going astray.

0:17:47.119 --> 0:17:49.399
<v Speaker 6>You know, we work with police every day, so we

0:17:49.440 --> 0:17:54.000
<v Speaker 6>have those kind of relationships where we are able to ask, oh,

0:17:54.280 --> 0:17:57.560
<v Speaker 6>you know, why is that happening, and you know, be in.

0:17:57.440 --> 0:17:58.760
<v Speaker 7>That place to support people.

0:17:58.880 --> 0:18:02.200
<v Speaker 6>So I really want to know that you're not only

0:18:02.200 --> 0:18:04.480
<v Speaker 6>trusting the police if you want to make those complaints,

0:18:04.560 --> 0:18:07.920
<v Speaker 6>but there are independent support people there as well.

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<v Speaker 1>I want to apologize to the woman at the center

0:18:16.680 --> 0:18:20.159
<v Speaker 1>of this for the repeated early failures in following the

0:18:20.200 --> 0:18:24.480
<v Speaker 1>proper processes investigating this matter by those at such a

0:18:24.600 --> 0:18:30.159
<v Speaker 1>senior level of police. You had asked for help, you

0:18:30.200 --> 0:18:33.360
<v Speaker 1>would badly let down. That was unacceptable.

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<v Speaker 2>What are some of the biggest barriers in general for

0:18:38.960 --> 0:18:41.360
<v Speaker 2>people to come forward other than I mean, I guess

0:18:41.640 --> 0:18:44.000
<v Speaker 2>it would be really scary going to police in the

0:18:44.040 --> 0:18:44.679
<v Speaker 2>first place.

0:18:44.720 --> 0:18:46.679
<v Speaker 7>Hey, yeah, it's really scary.

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<v Speaker 6>But you know, big barrier is that you don't expect

0:18:49.080 --> 0:18:52.520
<v Speaker 6>to be believed often, you know, that's the nature of grooming,

0:18:52.560 --> 0:18:55.760
<v Speaker 6>that's the nature of sexual violence, and you know, that's

0:18:55.800 --> 0:18:58.919
<v Speaker 6>why it's so important that people who are responding to

0:19:00.160 --> 0:19:03.960
<v Speaker 6>complaints really do understand the dynamics that a lot of time,

0:19:04.320 --> 0:19:06.720
<v Speaker 6>what that grooman does is, you know, the person causing

0:19:06.800 --> 0:19:10.240
<v Speaker 6>harm will do things and say things to diminish the

0:19:10.280 --> 0:19:13.959
<v Speaker 6>person or you know, as appears to have occurred in

0:19:13.960 --> 0:19:14.720
<v Speaker 6>this situation.

0:19:16.040 --> 0:19:17.919
<v Speaker 7>They groom the environment that they're in.

0:19:18.119 --> 0:19:20.600
<v Speaker 6>So, you know, an example of that here is that

0:19:21.480 --> 0:19:24.960
<v Speaker 6>you know that you talk negatively about the person before

0:19:25.000 --> 0:19:27.560
<v Speaker 6>they've even made a complaint, so that when that complaint

0:19:27.600 --> 0:19:28.200
<v Speaker 6>comes in.

0:19:28.400 --> 0:19:29.640
<v Speaker 7>The person isn't believed.

0:19:29.720 --> 0:19:32.680
<v Speaker 6>You know, that's a really really common dynamic of sexual violence,

0:19:32.720 --> 0:19:35.000
<v Speaker 6>and so you know, we really need to make sure

0:19:35.040 --> 0:19:38.359
<v Speaker 6>that the people responsible for responding to complaints, you know,

0:19:38.600 --> 0:19:42.199
<v Speaker 6>are always informed about those dynamics and certainly, the you know,

0:19:42.280 --> 0:19:45.960
<v Speaker 6>the sex assault police teams at the front Light are

0:19:46.000 --> 0:19:49.000
<v Speaker 6>informed about those but you know, one you know, reading

0:19:49.040 --> 0:19:51.280
<v Speaker 6>the IPCA report, you have to question whether the police

0:19:51.320 --> 0:19:51.800
<v Speaker 6>hire up.

0:19:52.160 --> 0:19:54.280
<v Speaker 7>We're well informed about those dynamics.

0:19:54.760 --> 0:19:57.080
<v Speaker 2>If someone was to come to you for advice and

0:19:57.119 --> 0:19:59.359
<v Speaker 2>they had been sitting on something and they were ready

0:19:59.359 --> 0:20:01.560
<v Speaker 2>to come forward, but then they see something like this

0:20:01.720 --> 0:20:04.520
<v Speaker 2>happening and it kind of you know, pushes them back

0:20:04.560 --> 0:20:06.800
<v Speaker 2>a little bit, what kind of advice would you give them?

0:20:07.200 --> 0:20:09.480
<v Speaker 6>Yeah, I mean, so we would talk to them about

0:20:09.480 --> 0:20:11.119
<v Speaker 6>what they needed to feel safe.

0:20:11.320 --> 0:20:12.680
<v Speaker 7>I mean, it's always their decision.

0:20:12.720 --> 0:20:15.240
<v Speaker 6>There's no pressure from us about whether you report or

0:20:15.240 --> 0:20:17.160
<v Speaker 6>don't report, because it really has to be the.

0:20:17.119 --> 0:20:19.439
<v Speaker 7>Individual's decision on that.

0:20:19.960 --> 0:20:22.240
<v Speaker 6>But really, I mean the kinds of things that we

0:20:22.320 --> 0:20:24.920
<v Speaker 6>would do is talk with them through their worries, talk

0:20:24.960 --> 0:20:28.680
<v Speaker 6>with them about how those worries might be addressed. You know,

0:20:28.800 --> 0:20:30.880
<v Speaker 6>if they wanted to make that complaint, then we would

0:20:30.880 --> 0:20:33.359
<v Speaker 6>make sure that we were with them and you know,

0:20:33.480 --> 0:20:35.520
<v Speaker 6>fully able to support them through the process.

0:20:35.880 --> 0:20:38.560
<v Speaker 7>But it really is an individual decision, and.

0:20:39.960 --> 0:20:41.960
<v Speaker 6>You know, I think that that can be hard sometimes

0:20:41.960 --> 0:20:43.480
<v Speaker 6>for friends and family to understand.

0:20:43.520 --> 0:20:45.439
<v Speaker 7>They're like, well, why aren't you reporting? Why don't you're reporting?

0:20:45.720 --> 0:20:47.440
<v Speaker 7>But it is a tough process.

0:20:47.600 --> 0:20:51.600
<v Speaker 6>You have to talk about things which can feel shaving

0:20:51.640 --> 0:20:54.760
<v Speaker 6>and that are very intimate, and you know, the reality is,

0:20:55.640 --> 0:20:58.080
<v Speaker 6>you know we see from things like the Gender Attitudes

0:20:58.200 --> 0:21:02.479
<v Speaker 6>Survey for example, you know there are lots of New

0:21:02.560 --> 0:21:05.760
<v Speaker 6>Zealanders who do don't blame people who are victims of

0:21:05.800 --> 0:21:08.880
<v Speaker 6>sexual assaultants. So there is always that wondering and so

0:21:09.240 --> 0:21:11.560
<v Speaker 6>you know, people really have to make that decision themselves

0:21:11.560 --> 0:21:13.680
<v Speaker 6>about whether they want to go forward with a complaint

0:21:13.760 --> 0:21:14.000
<v Speaker 6>or not.

0:21:14.359 --> 0:21:17.520
<v Speaker 2>And I suppose psychologically as well bringing up those things

0:21:17.560 --> 0:21:20.359
<v Speaker 2>and speaking about them, I guess people may not understand

0:21:20.400 --> 0:21:25.479
<v Speaker 2>that PTSD you actually feel those emotions, You feel like

0:21:25.600 --> 0:21:28.159
<v Speaker 2>you did at the time that it happens. So it

0:21:28.160 --> 0:21:30.440
<v Speaker 2>doesn't matter whether it's a couple of years, a couple

0:21:30.440 --> 0:21:32.920
<v Speaker 2>of months, or a couple of decades afterwards, right.

0:21:33.119 --> 0:21:36.800
<v Speaker 6>Yes, absolutely, absolutely, so thinking about it can you know,

0:21:36.920 --> 0:21:38.840
<v Speaker 6>we call that an internal trigger that can.

0:21:39.000 --> 0:21:41.240
<v Speaker 7>Take you back to those feelings.

0:21:41.400 --> 0:21:44.679
<v Speaker 6>But certainly being in a situation where somebody's asking you

0:21:44.720 --> 0:21:46.600
<v Speaker 6>about it can put you back in that place, or

0:21:46.640 --> 0:21:49.159
<v Speaker 6>even if there's dynamics going on that just remind you

0:21:49.280 --> 0:21:52.879
<v Speaker 6>of those experiences, and so you know that's the reason

0:21:52.920 --> 0:21:56.359
<v Speaker 6>for those independence support people being there is that we

0:21:56.480 --> 0:22:00.119
<v Speaker 6>can help people get through that process keeping their well

0:22:00.160 --> 0:22:01.800
<v Speaker 6>being as intact as possible.

0:22:02.080 --> 0:22:04.600
<v Speaker 2>And I suppose Fano and friends can come to you

0:22:04.640 --> 0:22:06.919
<v Speaker 2>as well for advice if they have somebody close to

0:22:06.960 --> 0:22:10.639
<v Speaker 2>them who has experienced this or is going through something

0:22:10.760 --> 0:22:11.000
<v Speaker 2>like this.

0:22:11.600 --> 0:22:15.359
<v Speaker 6>Absolutely, we welcome our friends and Fano coming to us

0:22:16.080 --> 0:22:19.200
<v Speaker 6>because you know, we're in people's lives for a short

0:22:19.240 --> 0:22:21.520
<v Speaker 6>period of time. Your friends and your family are around

0:22:21.560 --> 0:22:24.440
<v Speaker 6>your long term, so the better equipped that they are

0:22:24.480 --> 0:22:26.760
<v Speaker 6>to support survivors are the better.

0:22:27.240 --> 0:22:29.199
<v Speaker 3>Thank you so much for joining us, Catherine.

0:22:29.480 --> 0:22:30.159
<v Speaker 7>Thanks Chelsea.

0:22:33.400 --> 0:22:36.600
<v Speaker 2>That's it for this episode of the Front Page. You

0:22:36.640 --> 0:22:40.520
<v Speaker 2>can read more about today's stories and extensive news coverage

0:22:40.560 --> 0:22:44.639
<v Speaker 2>at enzadherld dot co dot nz. The Front Page is

0:22:44.720 --> 0:22:48.960
<v Speaker 2>produced by Jane Yee and Richard Martin, who's also our editor.

0:22:49.520 --> 0:22:50.919
<v Speaker 3>I'm Chelsea Daniels.

0:22:51.359 --> 0:22:54.560
<v Speaker 2>Subscribe to the Front Page on iHeartRadio or wherever you

0:22:54.600 --> 0:22:55.000
<v Speaker 2>get your.

0:22:54.880 --> 0:22:59.520
<v Speaker 3>Podcasts, and tune in tomorrow for another look behind the headlines.

0:23:00.880 --> 0:23:01.120
<v Speaker 7>Four