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Speaker 1: Kilda.

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Speaker 2: I'm Chelsea Daniels and This is the Front Page, a

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Speaker 2: daily podcast presented by The New Zealand Herald. It's been

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Speaker 2: revealed that police ignored sex allegations against a former top

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Speaker 2: cop and instead prosecuted a woman for revenge emails. The

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Speaker 2: woman had emailed police, politicians and newsrooms accusing former Deputy

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Speaker 2: Police Commissioner Jevin mcskimming of being a sexual predator. The

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Speaker 2: Police watchdog has released a scathing one hundred and thirty

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Speaker 2: five page report into how the allegations were treated and

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Speaker 2: how the ambitions of a senior police officer were put

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Speaker 2: above the interests of a vulnerable woman. Police Commissioner Richard

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Speaker 2: Chambers has said she was ignored and badly let down.

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Speaker 2: He said it makes four appalling reading and the conduct

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Speaker 2: of the former top brass is inexcusable. He was briefed

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Speaker 2: about the situation just two days before he stepped into

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Speaker 2: the role, and during the course of the investigation, detectives

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Speaker 2: discovered mcskimming had used his work devices to search for pornography,

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Speaker 2: including beast reality and child sex exploitation material for at

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Speaker 2: least five years. The fifty two year old resigned in

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Speaker 2: disgrace and was later charged. He's pleaded guilty last week

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Speaker 2: and will be sentenced next month. This whole ordeal has

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Speaker 2: been indisputably damaging to one of the most important institutions

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Speaker 2: in our country. Later, we'll speak to help Auckland's executive director,

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Speaker 2: Catherine McPhillips about how to support anyone who has experienced

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Speaker 2: sexual abuse. But first, someone who knows all too well

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Speaker 2: what it's like to step up to those in power

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Speaker 2: is law Nicholas. She alleged police officers raped her as

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Speaker 2: a teen in the eighties and this resulted in criminal trials,

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Speaker 2: a commission of inquiry, and an officer being jailed for

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Speaker 2: attempting to pervert the course of justice. She is a

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Speaker 2: campaigner for victims of sexual assault and joins us now

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Speaker 2: on the front page. First off, Louise, when you heard

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Speaker 2: this news, what was your first reaction?

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Speaker 1: Oh, just belief and then sadness and then anger and

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Speaker 1: a bit of deja booth thrown in amongst it all.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, and that deja vuo that would bring back some

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Speaker 2: pretty heavy feelings for you hearing about that happening in

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Speaker 2: the police force again.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, And I think that's that's what It was

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Speaker 1: that kind of like kicked me back into that time.

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Speaker 1: But I soon realized that this is it came across

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Speaker 1: as this time police were actually doing something about it

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Speaker 1: and not dragging the chain or dragging it out or

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Speaker 1: you know, putting their hands up and saying nah, not

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Speaker 1: us sort of thing. They were onto it being straight away.

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Speaker 1: As soon as that IPCA report came out, it was

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Speaker 1: all on.

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Speaker 2: So hearing Richard Chambers and Mark Mitchell speak, was that

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Speaker 2: quite a bit different than what you experienced.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, absolutely absolutely. It was like I wouldn't say a

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Speaker 1: breath of fresh air, but it just it gave me.

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Speaker 1: It made me feel this is actually going to be

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Speaker 1: okay in the long run because they are onto it.

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Speaker 1: They're acknowledging the harm, they're acknowledging the survivor, they're acknowledging

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Speaker 1: where police have gone wrong with that team that covered

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Speaker 1: everything up. So for me, it was this is going

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Speaker 1: to be okay, better sweet pretty much. Yeah.

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Speaker 2: When there are questions around public trust in police, I

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Speaker 2: suppose the response is usually something like, you know, these

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Speaker 2: kind of things happen, that's rotten apples in the basket.

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Speaker 2: But the majority, I mean, it'd be hitting the thousands

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Speaker 2: of sworn and unsworn police officers, mind you pretty hard

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Speaker 2: at the moment. What's your first thought when you hear

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Speaker 2: statements like that?

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Speaker 1: Immediately go to those that are actually doing the work

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Speaker 1: and doing the work really, really well, to a point

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Speaker 1: that you know, this is why our survivors are coming forward.

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Speaker 1: It's because of the the empathy, the integrity that take

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Speaker 1: the cop hat off and actually be human when they're

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Speaker 1: dealing with our survivors that are going through this. You know,

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Speaker 1: the just describes this this horror, and you've got a

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Speaker 1: copper sitting there in front of them, acknowledging the harm

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Speaker 1: and saying, we will do what we can and you

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Speaker 1: can't be I wish that had happened way back in

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Speaker 1: the day, you know, but it is happening now.

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Speaker 2: The Independent Police Conduct Authority did an investigation, I suppose

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Speaker 2: whether the allegations were true, and that's not their role here,

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Speaker 2: but it did find police ignored the woman at the

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Speaker 2: center of this, delayed the investigation, and accepted mixed Skimming's

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Speaker 2: version of versions of events.

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Speaker 3: What message do you.

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Speaker 2: Think that that sends anyone kind of weighing up at

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Speaker 2: the moment whether or not to come forward about something

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Speaker 2: like this.

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Speaker 1: Well, I think what we've got to remember it was

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Speaker 1: senior star that took control of that investigation and when

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Speaker 1: somebody from you know, underneath that came in and challenged

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Speaker 1: what they were doing. That to me is the hope

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Speaker 1: that New Zealanders need to remember that there's always somebody

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Speaker 1: within the New Zealand place. They've got you back. They

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Speaker 1: absolutely have. And when I heard that actually how it

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Speaker 1: all unfolded, I thought, yeah, that you've got people that

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Speaker 1: aren't the bad eggs, that are the good people that

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Speaker 1: are that are helping our communities. And so for me

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Speaker 1: it was a revelation of thoughts.

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Speaker 3: That something's actually happening.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, absolutely, that somebody's actually you know, taking the bull

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Speaker 1: by the horns and bringing the people that are doing

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Speaker 1: the bad to account.

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Speaker 2: Yeah. I did find solace in the fact that despite

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Speaker 2: I suppose the efforts efforts to keep this all covered up,

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Speaker 2: there were a few staffers who made sure that it

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Speaker 2: made the light of day.

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Speaker 3: Judith Collins said it herself when she said was.

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Speaker 4: All was some sort of group think going on, but

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Speaker 4: there were thankfully at least three people, lower ranked people

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Speaker 4: who stood up for what they knew was the right thing,

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Speaker 4: and one of them sent this matter as the IPCA

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Speaker 4: as a complaint, and without her work and their work

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Speaker 4: of the others, this might never have seen the light

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Speaker 4: of day.

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Speaker 2: Do you wish that there were some junior staff as

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Speaker 2: a woman there, lower in the ranks there in your situation.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, instead of a reporter what it was, you know,

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Speaker 1: And that's what it took somebody within the media to

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Speaker 1: actually acknowledge and investigate and show that there was all

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Speaker 1: this corruptness going on and all this harm being done

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Speaker 1: to not only the South, but to how many others.

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Speaker 1: And he took the ball by the horns and did

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Speaker 1: something about it. And it's kind of like it's mirrored

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Speaker 1: with the police that you know, the lower ranked police

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Speaker 1: officers that did exactly the same thing. That is what

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Speaker 1: the change has been. They believed, without a doubt, absolutely

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Speaker 1: they saw that process and protocol and everything, you know,

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Speaker 1: it's standard in how to investigate a disclosure of that type,

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Speaker 1: and that was just shoved under and yeah, they did everything.

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Speaker 1: They questioned why this wasn't happening, why are you doing this?

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Speaker 1: And so because of that it brought it to the

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Speaker 1: light of day.

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Speaker 5: We will continue to do what is needed to ensure

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Speaker 5: this does not happen again. The police have also accepted

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Speaker 5: all the recommendations in the report. The Police Commissioner will

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Speaker 5: speak to that and more details shortly. The New Zealand

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Speaker 5: Police enjoy strong public trust and confidence. It is imperative

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Speaker 5: that this trust is maintained. That comes with strong action

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Speaker 5: on the part of the government. Finally, I do want

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Speaker 5: to stress that these adverse findings should not be seen

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Speaker 5: as a reflection on our police service as a whole.

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Speaker 2: When you look back at what you've been through with

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Speaker 2: the police in the past, obviously from the eighties until

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Speaker 2: the early two thousands up until you know now and

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Speaker 2: you now work with police, you with the sexual assault

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Speaker 2: advocacy work that you do, did you personally find it

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Speaker 2: difficult to regain that trust or for the police?

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Speaker 1: In the beginning, absolutely trust them and I told them

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Speaker 1: that to their basis, especially going through the thought process

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Speaker 1: and that you know, they were wanting me to make

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Speaker 1: another statement to do this, and I kept saying, no,

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Speaker 1: I'm not doing that. I don't trust you, bastards was

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Speaker 1: my words. But it's been over. It was a huge

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Speaker 1: learning for myself and it was a conclusion that I

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Speaker 1: came to that it wasn't the New Zealand police that

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Speaker 1: hurt me. It was individuals with them. And it's the

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Speaker 1: same for this as well. And that's why I'm advocating

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Speaker 1: on you know, on behalf of those police people that

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Speaker 1: I work alongside, that my team works alongside every single

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Speaker 1: day right across the country, is that we're advocating for

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Speaker 1: you because we know that you're doing the best that

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Speaker 1: you can for our survivors. And so it wasn't you,

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Speaker 1: as an individual who did what that senior do it

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Speaker 1: up the ring. And that's what people need to understand.

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Speaker 1: Don't define what we're skimming and those others did and say, well,

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Speaker 1: every cops are saying no, no, it's not.

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Speaker 2: If there is someone out there right now struggling and

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Speaker 2: they want to come forward with any allegation something's happened

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Speaker 2: to them, they've survived something horrific and they they felt

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Speaker 2: knocked back by what's happened, and when the story came out,

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Speaker 2: they kind.

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Speaker 3: Of took a step back.

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Speaker 2: I suppose, what would you tell them to take that

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Speaker 2: couple of steps forward?

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Speaker 1: Yep, please take that couple of steps forward. There are

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Speaker 1: agencies right across organizations right across New Zealand that can

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Speaker 1: support you. And the core thing that we have worked

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Speaker 1: hard alongside police with is how do we get that

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Speaker 1: first describe it. How do we get our survivors to

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Speaker 1: trust in the police and in the process. And it's

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Speaker 1: quite simple. It's like a meet and greet. So we

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Speaker 1: meet with a detective who is in the Adult Sexual

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Speaker 1: Assault team or in the child Protection team or you know,

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Speaker 1: and we have that conversation. And we have done that

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Speaker 1: hundreds of times and not one survivors turned around and said,

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Speaker 1: I'm not doing this because it's about bringing together and

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Speaker 1: helping each other. The police officer and the survivor and

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Speaker 1: the FARNO actually understand what this process is all about.

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Speaker 1: And it's in a safe place. It's not at the

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Speaker 1: police station. It's a mutual area and yeah, that's what works.

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Speaker 1: If you're unsure, pick up the phone, whether it's you

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Speaker 1: rape crisis, whether it's the Luise Nicholas, trust, it doesn't

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Speaker 1: matter who, and then ask the information and guidance. If

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Speaker 1: we're there to guide, we're there to advocate on your

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Speaker 1: behalf to do what we can. Because we know we

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Speaker 1: have that lived experience, we understand the trauma. We understand that,

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Speaker 1: you know, taking that keep forward into Actually I want

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Speaker 1: to tell my story. How do I do that?

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Speaker 3: Do you remember what was going through your head before

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Speaker 3: you told your story?

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Speaker 1: Yeah, I absolutely it was I can't because I need

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Speaker 1: to protect everyone around me. No one's going to believe me.

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Speaker 1: Look who I'm up against. You know, I'm going to

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Speaker 1: be telling the story of a rape by members of

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Speaker 1: the New Zealand place. Who the hell I'm going to

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Speaker 1: believe me? But it was the sup thought I had

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Speaker 1: with my family, especially my husband, who said that you can.

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Speaker 1: You can do this because everything that has happened to

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Speaker 1: you is not your fault. And that's what our survivors

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Speaker 1: need to understand and appreciate that you now have an

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Speaker 1: opportunity to right the wrongs of the past. And for me,

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Speaker 1: when I talk to our survivors, it's I always say

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Speaker 1: to them, it's not about the destination, it's the journey.

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Speaker 1: And regardless of the outcome if it gets to court,

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Speaker 1: regardless of the outcome, you have told you have held

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Speaker 1: that person to account. You have taken back the power

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Speaker 1: that was taken from you. And it's amazing how our

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Speaker 1: survivors go into the process with their heads down and

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Speaker 1: they walk out the other side going I did it,

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Speaker 1: I did it. It is our absolutely, you can absolutely

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Speaker 1: as our justice system and the way we have to

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Speaker 1: go through this process. Okay, no, it's not easy. I'm

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Speaker 1: not going to lie. But at the end of the day,

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Speaker 1: all you can do is tell you the truth and

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Speaker 1: it doesn't matter what anyone else throws at you. You

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Speaker 1: can stand to you tell your truth and it's all

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Speaker 1: you've got to do.

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Speaker 3: Thanks so much for joining us, Louise.

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Speaker 1: No worries at all. Thank you for having them Man Help.

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Speaker 2: Auckland was set up in nineteen eighty two and has

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Speaker 2: been a specialist provider of sexual abuse support services in

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Speaker 2: Tatnicke Makodo ever since. Executive director Katherine McPhillips is a

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Speaker 2: clinical psychologist and joins us now on the front page. So, Catherine,

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Speaker 2: what was your first reaction when you heard the details

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Speaker 2: about the woman at the center.

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Speaker 3: Of all this.

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Speaker 6: Well, you know, first reaction is to feel empathy for her.

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Speaker 6: To be honest, she's been through a terrible ordeal over

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Speaker 6: some years, through all of this, but I have to

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Speaker 6: say it's not an uncommon story, not in terms of

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Speaker 6: you know, the nature of the role of the person

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Speaker 6: who was hurting her or you know, all of the

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Speaker 6: investigation that followed. But certainly men in positions of power.

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Speaker 6: It's not uncommon for us to hear kind of stories

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Speaker 6: where where women are victimized over quite a period of

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Speaker 6: time and try to get out of those situations or

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Speaker 6: alert other people to it and don't get listened to.

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Speaker 2: How do you think sexual assault survivors felt at hearing

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Speaker 2: about this case, Well.

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Speaker 6: You know, really concerned that it will diminish people's trust

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Speaker 6: in the police and make people feel, you know, even

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Speaker 6: more unsafe to go and report to police.

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Speaker 7: It's it's a really hard thing to do to do

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Speaker 7: that anyway, and.

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Speaker 6: This kind of you know, finding out about this kind

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Speaker 6: of thing having occurred just you know, not just that down.

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Speaker 6: And to be honest, we've you know, New Zealand's been

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Speaker 6: quite slow to get up our reporting and you know

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Speaker 6: we've only just in the last year or so been

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Speaker 6: getting those reporting rapes up. So, you know, my concern

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Speaker 6: is that it will lead people to feel concerned that

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Speaker 6: they won't be listened to, they won't be heard, and you.

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Speaker 7: Know that they'll be blamed for what's happened to them,

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Speaker 7: and so yeah.

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Speaker 6: I think it's really important that people understand that there

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Speaker 6: are support services in place, so services like help where

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Speaker 6: I am, there's services right across the country. So if

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Speaker 6: you go to a police station to make a complaint

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Speaker 6: of sexual assault, you know that there is an independent

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Speaker 6: support person there with you through that process, and that

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Speaker 6: those services available to you for as long as you

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Speaker 6: need them.

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Speaker 7: And you know that's a you.

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Speaker 6: Know, we're there to ensure that or kind of to

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Speaker 6: promote people's well being through the process, but that certainly

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Speaker 6: can involve talking with the police if things are going astray.

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Speaker 6: You know, we work with police every day, so we

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Speaker 6: have those kind of relationships where we are able to ask, oh,

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Speaker 6: you know, why is that happening, and you know, be in.

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Speaker 7: That place to support people.

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Speaker 6: So I really want to know that you're not only

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Speaker 6: trusting the police if you want to make those complaints,

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Speaker 6: but there are independent support people there as well.

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Speaker 1: I want to apologize to the woman at the center

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Speaker 1: of this for the repeated early failures in following the

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Speaker 1: proper processes investigating this matter by those at such a

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Speaker 1: senior level of police. You had asked for help, you

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Speaker 1: would badly let down. That was unacceptable.

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Speaker 2: What are some of the biggest barriers in general for

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Speaker 2: people to come forward other than I mean, I guess

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Speaker 2: it would be really scary going to police in the

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Speaker 2: first place.

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Speaker 7: Hey, yeah, it's really scary.

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Speaker 6: But you know, big barrier is that you don't expect

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Speaker 6: to be believed often, you know, that's the nature of grooming,

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Speaker 6: that's the nature of sexual violence, and you know, that's

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Speaker 6: why it's so important that people who are responding to

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Speaker 6: complaints really do understand the dynamics that a lot of time,

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Speaker 6: what that grooman does is, you know, the person causing

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Speaker 6: harm will do things and say things to diminish the

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Speaker 6: person or you know, as appears to have occurred in

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Speaker 6: this situation.

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Speaker 7: They groom the environment that they're in.

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Speaker 6: So, you know, an example of that here is that

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Speaker 6: you know that you talk negatively about the person before

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Speaker 6: they've even made a complaint, so that when that complaint

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Speaker 6: comes in.

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Speaker 7: The person isn't believed.

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Speaker 6: You know, that's a really really common dynamic of sexual violence,

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Speaker 6: and so you know, we really need to make sure

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Speaker 6: that the people responsible for responding to complaints, you know,

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Speaker 6: are always informed about those dynamics and certainly, the you know,

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Speaker 6: the sex assault police teams at the front Light are

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Speaker 6: informed about those but you know, one you know, reading

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Speaker 6: the IPCA report, you have to question whether the police

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Speaker 6: hire up.

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Speaker 7: We're well informed about those dynamics.

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Speaker 2: If someone was to come to you for advice and

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Speaker 2: they had been sitting on something and they were ready

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Speaker 2: to come forward, but then they see something like this

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Speaker 2: happening and it kind of you know, pushes them back

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Speaker 2: a little bit, what kind of advice would you give them?

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Speaker 6: Yeah, I mean, so we would talk to them about

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Speaker 6: what they needed to feel safe.

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Speaker 7: I mean, it's always their decision.

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Speaker 6: There's no pressure from us about whether you report or

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Speaker 6: don't report, because it really has to be the.

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Speaker 7: Individual's decision on that.

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Speaker 6: But really, I mean the kinds of things that we

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Speaker 6: would do is talk with them through their worries, talk

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Speaker 6: with them about how those worries might be addressed. You know,

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Speaker 6: if they wanted to make that complaint, then we would

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Speaker 6: make sure that we were with them and you know,

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Speaker 6: fully able to support them through the process.

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Speaker 7: But it really is an individual decision, and.

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Speaker 6: You know, I think that that can be hard sometimes

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Speaker 6: for friends and family to understand.

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Speaker 7: They're like, well, why aren't you reporting? Why don't you're reporting?

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Speaker 7: But it is a tough process.

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Speaker 6: You have to talk about things which can feel shaving

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Speaker 6: and that are very intimate, and you know, the reality is,

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Speaker 6: you know we see from things like the Gender Attitudes

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Speaker 6: Survey for example, you know there are lots of New

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Speaker 6: Zealanders who do don't blame people who are victims of

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Speaker 6: sexual assaultants. So there is always that wondering and so

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Speaker 6: you know, people really have to make that decision themselves

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Speaker 6: about whether they want to go forward with a complaint

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Speaker 6: or not.

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Speaker 2: And I suppose psychologically as well bringing up those things

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Speaker 2: and speaking about them, I guess people may not understand

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Speaker 2: that PTSD you actually feel those emotions, You feel like

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Speaker 2: you did at the time that it happens. So it

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Speaker 2: doesn't matter whether it's a couple of years, a couple

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Speaker 2: of months, or a couple of decades afterwards, right.

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Speaker 6: Yes, absolutely, absolutely, so thinking about it can you know,

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Speaker 6: we call that an internal trigger that can.

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Speaker 7: Take you back to those feelings.

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Speaker 6: But certainly being in a situation where somebody's asking you

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Speaker 6: about it can put you back in that place, or

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Speaker 6: even if there's dynamics going on that just remind you

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Speaker 6: of those experiences, and so you know that's the reason

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Speaker 6: for those independence support people being there is that we

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Speaker 6: can help people get through that process keeping their well

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Speaker 6: being as intact as possible.

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Speaker 2: And I suppose Fano and friends can come to you

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Speaker 2: as well for advice if they have somebody close to

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Speaker 2: them who has experienced this or is going through something

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Speaker 2: like this.

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Speaker 6: Absolutely, we welcome our friends and Fano coming to us

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Speaker 6: because you know, we're in people's lives for a short

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Speaker 6: period of time. Your friends and your family are around

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Speaker 6: your long term, so the better equipped that they are

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Speaker 6: to support survivors are the better.

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Speaker 3: Thank you so much for joining us, Catherine.

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Speaker 7: Thanks Chelsea.

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Speaker 2: That's it for this episode of the Front Page. You

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Speaker 2: can read more about today's stories and extensive news coverage

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Speaker 2: at enzadherld dot co dot nz. The Front Page is

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Speaker 2: produced by Jane Yee and Richard Martin, who's also our editor.

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Speaker 3: I'm Chelsea Daniels.

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Speaker 2: Subscribe to the Front Page on iHeartRadio or wherever you

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Speaker 2: get your.

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Speaker 3: Podcasts, and tune in tomorrow for another look behind the headlines.

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Speaker 7: Four