1 00:00:00,040 --> 00:00:03,760 Speaker 1: We've got the much anticipated Homelessness in Science report learly 2 00:00:03,800 --> 00:00:06,160 Speaker 1: five thousand a living rough across the country, which is 3 00:00:06,200 --> 00:00:08,520 Speaker 1: a thirty seven percent jump between twenty eighteen and twenty 4 00:00:08,560 --> 00:00:11,760 Speaker 1: twenty three. Auckland's up ninety percent, Taranaki's up two hundred 5 00:00:11,760 --> 00:00:13,840 Speaker 1: and fifty, although we'll question that in the moment. Chris 6 00:00:13,840 --> 00:00:16,400 Speaker 1: Bishop's the Housing Ministry. So the two hundred and fifty, Chris, 7 00:00:16,480 --> 00:00:17,919 Speaker 1: I mean we've got to be careful about a place 8 00:00:17,960 --> 00:00:19,840 Speaker 1: like Taranaki. I mean that could be twelve to thirty 9 00:00:19,840 --> 00:00:22,000 Speaker 1: two people, couldn't it without you. 10 00:00:21,920 --> 00:00:25,960 Speaker 2: Know, it could be The numbers bounce around from region 11 00:00:25,960 --> 00:00:28,480 Speaker 2: to region, and obviously we're deading with rough sleepers, so 12 00:00:28,520 --> 00:00:31,120 Speaker 2: the count is never going to be accurate. So that 13 00:00:31,160 --> 00:00:33,640 Speaker 2: the Homelessness Insights Report we released yesterday is based on 14 00:00:33,680 --> 00:00:36,839 Speaker 2: observational data from groups like the Orkan City Mission, Wellington 15 00:00:36,880 --> 00:00:40,159 Speaker 2: Downtown Community Ministry and others. But it's clear that we 16 00:00:40,200 --> 00:00:42,400 Speaker 2: have a problem. But this is a long running problem. 17 00:00:42,440 --> 00:00:44,440 Speaker 2: You know, New Zealand has had a problem with homelessness 18 00:00:44,479 --> 00:00:48,040 Speaker 2: for ten to fifteen years. The numbers increased from twenty 19 00:00:48,080 --> 00:00:51,560 Speaker 2: thirteen to eighteen. They increased from twenty eighteen to twenty 20 00:00:51,600 --> 00:00:54,640 Speaker 2: three and you know observationally they're up again in the 21 00:00:54,720 --> 00:00:55,520 Speaker 2: last couple of years. 22 00:00:55,640 --> 00:00:58,760 Speaker 1: What is your observation around that clarity do you have 23 00:00:58,920 --> 00:01:02,760 Speaker 1: do you can you say anything definitive with these numbers 24 00:01:02,840 --> 00:01:04,040 Speaker 1: or it's just a vibe. 25 00:01:05,280 --> 00:01:07,679 Speaker 3: Well, we know that we have a problem with rough sleeping. 26 00:01:08,640 --> 00:01:11,319 Speaker 2: The government spends about half a billion dollars a year 27 00:01:11,360 --> 00:01:14,840 Speaker 2: on support for people in these situations. That ranges from 28 00:01:14,840 --> 00:01:17,520 Speaker 2: emergency housing through to transitional We've got a product called 29 00:01:17,520 --> 00:01:20,120 Speaker 2: Housing First which puts people into a home and then 30 00:01:20,440 --> 00:01:23,200 Speaker 2: wraps housing support around them and make sure they can 31 00:01:23,240 --> 00:01:24,280 Speaker 2: actually stay in the house. 32 00:01:24,720 --> 00:01:26,560 Speaker 3: We've been running that since twenty seventeen. 33 00:01:26,600 --> 00:01:29,720 Speaker 2: That was launched under the Bill English government continued under 34 00:01:29,720 --> 00:01:32,920 Speaker 2: the last government. That program exists today and is doing good, 35 00:01:33,080 --> 00:01:36,840 Speaker 2: good work in places like Hamilton and Auckland, for example. 36 00:01:37,120 --> 00:01:39,400 Speaker 3: But you're dealing with people with often. 37 00:01:39,200 --> 00:01:42,080 Speaker 2: Quite complex challenges, right. Sometimes they've got mental health challenges, 38 00:01:42,120 --> 00:01:45,399 Speaker 2: Sometimes they've got addiction challenges. Sometimes they've got trauma in 39 00:01:45,440 --> 00:01:50,080 Speaker 2: their past, family violence sometimes as well. So it's important 40 00:01:50,080 --> 00:01:54,280 Speaker 2: you know, there's no one definition of who becomes homeless 41 00:01:54,320 --> 00:01:56,559 Speaker 2: and how There's a range of circumstances, and the question 42 00:01:56,600 --> 00:01:58,680 Speaker 2: ready for government is are we making sure that the 43 00:01:58,760 --> 00:02:01,960 Speaker 2: support is as effective as possible? And to be honest, 44 00:02:02,160 --> 00:02:04,000 Speaker 2: it's not at the moment, which is why we've got 45 00:02:04,040 --> 00:02:06,200 Speaker 2: the numbers that we have. So that's why we're taking 46 00:02:06,240 --> 00:02:09,640 Speaker 2: a really good lot and saying rodeo, no one wants 47 00:02:09,680 --> 00:02:11,400 Speaker 2: to live in a country in which people sleep rough 48 00:02:11,440 --> 00:02:14,040 Speaker 2: on the streets. How do we get the system responding 49 00:02:14,120 --> 00:02:15,400 Speaker 2: to that need better? 50 00:02:15,720 --> 00:02:18,000 Speaker 1: Okay, So, having said that, how much of its choice? 51 00:02:18,080 --> 00:02:20,320 Speaker 1: I watched Mitchell and TAPSI wander down the streets of 52 00:02:20,360 --> 00:02:22,360 Speaker 1: road ru the other day, and they seem to suggest 53 00:02:22,360 --> 00:02:24,760 Speaker 1: that many people actually choose this lifestyle. Is that fair 54 00:02:24,840 --> 00:02:25,040 Speaker 1: or not? 55 00:02:26,160 --> 00:02:29,520 Speaker 2: Well, if you go to MSD and walk in and 56 00:02:29,560 --> 00:02:31,440 Speaker 2: say I don't have a place to sleep, I'm sleeping 57 00:02:31,520 --> 00:02:34,920 Speaker 2: under a bridge. I need help, you will get help. 58 00:02:35,240 --> 00:02:38,560 Speaker 2: There is any number of different things that MSD will do. 59 00:02:38,680 --> 00:02:41,360 Speaker 2: They will you potentially end up in emergency housing. You 60 00:02:41,360 --> 00:02:43,919 Speaker 2: may potentially be offered a place in a transitional house 61 00:02:44,240 --> 00:02:46,840 Speaker 2: with a provider, which is another form of sort of 62 00:02:46,840 --> 00:02:50,320 Speaker 2: temporary accommodation. You may be offered a housing first place. 63 00:02:50,400 --> 00:02:52,120 Speaker 2: They may work with you to try and work out 64 00:02:52,160 --> 00:02:53,760 Speaker 2: exactly why you're living under the. 65 00:02:53,680 --> 00:02:54,520 Speaker 3: Bridge, for example. 66 00:02:55,520 --> 00:02:58,040 Speaker 2: But you're dealing with again, you're dealing with people who 67 00:02:58,120 --> 00:03:00,880 Speaker 2: are a bit distrustful often of the guvern and of 68 00:03:01,000 --> 00:03:05,240 Speaker 2: state apparatus, so getting them to do that is sometimes 69 00:03:05,240 --> 00:03:05,680 Speaker 2: a challenge. 70 00:03:05,720 --> 00:03:07,720 Speaker 1: Jim, But how much of that? How much is this 71 00:03:07,760 --> 00:03:10,000 Speaker 1: about politics? Because at the end of the day, they're 72 00:03:10,000 --> 00:03:12,200 Speaker 1: going to the opposition, any opposition is going to milk 73 00:03:12,240 --> 00:03:14,080 Speaker 1: this and they're going to go, you went hard on 74 00:03:14,120 --> 00:03:17,799 Speaker 1: emergency housing, you went hard on state housing, and look 75 00:03:17,840 --> 00:03:19,280 Speaker 1: what happens, people end up in cars. 76 00:03:19,280 --> 00:03:19,919 Speaker 3: This is on you. 77 00:03:20,919 --> 00:03:23,880 Speaker 2: Well, the opposition demanded we release this report, which we're 78 00:03:23,919 --> 00:03:26,200 Speaker 2: always going to do and we've now done, and they 79 00:03:26,280 --> 00:03:28,640 Speaker 2: claimed it would show that because we've tightened up on 80 00:03:28,680 --> 00:03:31,840 Speaker 2: emergency housing, that has led to arise in homelessness. That's 81 00:03:31,840 --> 00:03:33,680 Speaker 2: not what the report shows. By the way, hasn't stopped 82 00:03:33,680 --> 00:03:36,040 Speaker 2: them claiming that that's the case. But the report actually 83 00:03:36,040 --> 00:03:39,280 Speaker 2: says that it's not possible to work out policy changes 84 00:03:39,680 --> 00:03:42,839 Speaker 2: and link that to in a reported rise and rough 85 00:03:42,840 --> 00:03:45,640 Speaker 2: sleeping on the streets. The report doesn't actually say anything 86 00:03:45,680 --> 00:03:47,960 Speaker 2: that they think it shows. And I encourage them to 87 00:03:48,000 --> 00:03:50,800 Speaker 2: actually read the report. As I say, this is a 88 00:03:50,840 --> 00:03:54,320 Speaker 2: long running issue for New Zealand, and look, if emergency 89 00:03:54,320 --> 00:03:55,760 Speaker 2: housing was the answer, might I put it to you 90 00:03:55,840 --> 00:03:58,880 Speaker 2: like this, Between twenty eighteen and twenty twenty three, as 91 00:03:58,880 --> 00:04:01,880 Speaker 2: a government, we spent one point four billion dollars housing 92 00:04:01,880 --> 00:04:03,400 Speaker 2: people and motels one. 93 00:04:03,280 --> 00:04:04,120 Speaker 3: Point four billion. 94 00:04:04,840 --> 00:04:08,800 Speaker 2: We pumped billions and billions and billions of dollars into COMA, 95 00:04:08,880 --> 00:04:13,000 Speaker 2: AURA and other programs, and homelessness increased. So it's not 96 00:04:13,040 --> 00:04:15,559 Speaker 2: the answer. Money is not necessarily the answer. 97 00:04:16,320 --> 00:04:17,920 Speaker 1: I don't want to make this too political, but I'm 98 00:04:17,960 --> 00:04:21,760 Speaker 1: watching question Time yesterday and I don't know that Ginny 99 00:04:21,960 --> 00:04:24,560 Speaker 1: gave you so many free hits by the end of it. 100 00:04:26,440 --> 00:04:28,360 Speaker 1: Do they not think? Do they not think of what 101 00:04:28,400 --> 00:04:30,560 Speaker 1: they're asking and what you're potentially going to say by 102 00:04:30,600 --> 00:04:31,400 Speaker 1: way of an answer. 103 00:04:32,400 --> 00:04:34,920 Speaker 2: Ah, I don't know, but I got to say I did. 104 00:04:34,960 --> 00:04:36,920 Speaker 2: I did quite enjoy it. I mean, the sort of 105 00:04:36,960 --> 00:04:38,680 Speaker 2: delicious bit of it all is that, you know, a 106 00:04:38,720 --> 00:04:40,599 Speaker 2: week ago they were going on about how everyone's losing 107 00:04:40,600 --> 00:04:42,320 Speaker 2: their jobs and construction. It's not true, by the way, 108 00:04:42,320 --> 00:04:44,719 Speaker 2: but they're complaining about it, and then this this weight 109 00:04:44,760 --> 00:04:46,800 Speaker 2: they're asking me. You know, there's not enough workers to 110 00:04:46,880 --> 00:04:48,440 Speaker 2: meet the construction pipeline. 111 00:04:48,440 --> 00:04:50,520 Speaker 3: It's like you can't have it both ways. Work it out. 112 00:04:50,640 --> 00:04:52,320 Speaker 2: Other people losing their jobs and there are enough workers 113 00:04:52,360 --> 00:04:54,560 Speaker 2: in it. There's nuts and we got all these projects 114 00:04:54,600 --> 00:04:55,840 Speaker 2: under why it's going to be good over the next 115 00:04:55,880 --> 00:04:57,080 Speaker 2: six months. You know, I've got a lot of sod 116 00:04:57,120 --> 00:04:58,760 Speaker 2: turnings of a lot of projects around the country. 117 00:04:58,839 --> 00:05:00,560 Speaker 3: Get people and work well. 118 00:05:00,600 --> 00:05:02,760 Speaker 1: I appreciate the time as always. Chris Bishop, Housing Minister 119 00:05:02,760 --> 00:05:06,160 Speaker 1: with us this morning. If you can be bothered. This 120 00:05:06,240 --> 00:05:09,679 Speaker 1: is what fascinates me about question time is I don't 121 00:05:09,680 --> 00:05:12,440 Speaker 1: know what drives the opposition in their thinking, but the 122 00:05:12,480 --> 00:05:14,760 Speaker 1: idea of question time is to elicit a piece of 123 00:05:14,760 --> 00:05:18,880 Speaker 1: information that, in really superficial terms, will allow you to 124 00:05:18,920 --> 00:05:21,760 Speaker 1: look good or score you some political points. And all 125 00:05:21,839 --> 00:05:23,960 Speaker 1: Ginny did and there were three or four of these questions, 126 00:05:24,040 --> 00:05:26,880 Speaker 1: just question after question after question, and Bishop just stood 127 00:05:26,960 --> 00:05:31,080 Speaker 1: up and, apart from laughing like he just did, just 128 00:05:31,360 --> 00:05:33,200 Speaker 1: embarrassed her. It was the weirdest thing. 129 00:05:33,880 --> 00:05:36,760 Speaker 3: For more from the Mic Asking Breakfast, listen live to 130 00:05:36,880 --> 00:05:39,960 Speaker 3: news Talks it'd be from six am weekdays, or follow 131 00:05:40,000 --> 00:05:41,560 Speaker 3: the podcast on iHeartRadio.