1 00:00:05,600 --> 00:00:05,960 Speaker 1: Cielda. 2 00:00:06,040 --> 00:00:09,240 Speaker 2: I'm Chelsea Daniels and this is the Front Page, a 3 00:00:09,320 --> 00:00:18,000 Speaker 2: daily podcast presented by the New Zealand Herald. Concerns have 4 00:00:18,079 --> 00:00:20,840 Speaker 2: been raised on opposite ends of the planet this week 5 00:00:21,000 --> 00:00:25,840 Speaker 2: on foreign interference from Iran. Donald Trump's election campaign has 6 00:00:25,880 --> 00:00:30,600 Speaker 2: claimed that Iran has hacked its internal messages, leaking election 7 00:00:30,800 --> 00:00:34,920 Speaker 2: campaign documents to US media. At the same time, Australia's 8 00:00:34,920 --> 00:00:37,880 Speaker 2: spyboss has claimed that Iran is one of at least 9 00:00:38,080 --> 00:00:42,320 Speaker 2: three or four countries involved in foreign interference. This may 10 00:00:42,400 --> 00:00:45,960 Speaker 2: seem like an issue happening beyond US shores, but academics 11 00:00:45,960 --> 00:00:49,640 Speaker 2: and officials have been warning for years that foreign interference 12 00:00:49,720 --> 00:00:53,120 Speaker 2: is happening here. Today on the front Page, University of 13 00:00:53,120 --> 00:00:57,160 Speaker 2: Otago Professor of Politics Robert Patman joins us to discuss 14 00:00:57,240 --> 00:01:03,520 Speaker 2: how worried New Zealand should be. Robert, what do you 15 00:01:03,560 --> 00:01:07,760 Speaker 2: make of Australia coming out and stating bluntly that multiple 16 00:01:07,800 --> 00:01:10,280 Speaker 2: countries are involved in foreign interference there? 17 00:01:10,560 --> 00:01:13,600 Speaker 1: I can't be too shocked by that, because we have 18 00:01:13,680 --> 00:01:17,280 Speaker 1: to be honest about this. Many countries spy on each other, 19 00:01:17,360 --> 00:01:20,440 Speaker 1: including countries which are friendly with each other. That was 20 00:01:20,480 --> 00:01:23,880 Speaker 1: certainly the case during the Cold war, and it's certainly 21 00:01:24,000 --> 00:01:27,959 Speaker 1: the case in the post Cold War era. And in 22 00:01:28,000 --> 00:01:30,520 Speaker 1: a sense, you know, when we talk about spying, we're 23 00:01:30,560 --> 00:01:33,440 Speaker 1: really talking about a form of foreign interference. So what 24 00:01:33,600 --> 00:01:36,920 Speaker 1: is foreign interference? It really refers to a situation where 25 00:01:36,920 --> 00:01:40,919 Speaker 1: an external state departs from the normal patterns of relations 26 00:01:40,959 --> 00:01:44,360 Speaker 1: and attempts to impose its will directly or indirectly within 27 00:01:44,440 --> 00:01:47,600 Speaker 1: a nation which is often seen as being weaker, in 28 00:01:47,720 --> 00:01:52,280 Speaker 1: order to achieve some diplomatic, political, moral, or strategic objectives. 29 00:01:52,320 --> 00:01:55,240 Speaker 1: So that, in a nutshell, is what foreign interference is, 30 00:01:55,520 --> 00:01:58,440 Speaker 1: and I'm afraid it goes on quite regularly in international relations. 31 00:01:58,760 --> 00:02:03,400 Speaker 2: Yeah, there's spy agency said that diaspora communities are being 32 00:02:03,480 --> 00:02:07,080 Speaker 2: threatened and intimidated. First off, what are those communities? What 33 00:02:07,080 --> 00:02:09,520 Speaker 2: does that mean? And why do you think they're being targeted? 34 00:02:09,760 --> 00:02:15,800 Speaker 1: Diaspora communities refers to those communities located, for example, in 35 00:02:15,880 --> 00:02:19,640 Speaker 1: New Zealand. They may be Chinese, they may be Iranian, 36 00:02:19,919 --> 00:02:23,880 Speaker 1: which there are attempts to influence them which go beyond 37 00:02:24,200 --> 00:02:29,720 Speaker 1: normal diplomatic channels by outside interested And in the two 38 00:02:29,760 --> 00:02:34,400 Speaker 1: examples I've given authoritarian states which are China and Iran, 39 00:02:34,880 --> 00:02:38,560 Speaker 1: And certainly there's been some concern expressed by the New 40 00:02:38,639 --> 00:02:43,320 Speaker 1: Zealand sis that China is one of the countries which 41 00:02:43,360 --> 00:02:48,040 Speaker 1: is trying to influence communities of Chinese origin in this country. 42 00:02:48,200 --> 00:02:51,400 Speaker 2: Director General of Security of Australia Mike Burgess said, and 43 00:02:51,480 --> 00:02:54,520 Speaker 2: I quote some of them would surprise you, and some 44 00:02:54,600 --> 00:02:56,760 Speaker 2: of them are also our friends. 45 00:03:00,200 --> 00:03:03,200 Speaker 3: Spy Chief Mike Burgess has worn three or four friendly 46 00:03:03,280 --> 00:03:07,320 Speaker 3: nations have been involved in foreign interference in Australia. The 47 00:03:07,400 --> 00:03:11,680 Speaker 3: AZO Director General claims they're meddling in diaspora communities, which 48 00:03:11,680 --> 00:03:15,120 Speaker 3: are ethnic groups who no longer live in their home country. 49 00:03:15,520 --> 00:03:19,480 Speaker 3: Iran is involved, but the other nations have not been named. 50 00:03:22,520 --> 00:03:23,400 Speaker 2: What do you make of that? 51 00:03:23,720 --> 00:03:26,280 Speaker 1: I think Mike Burgess is referring to the fact that 52 00:03:26,560 --> 00:03:30,200 Speaker 1: spying comes from many different quarters, and referring to the 53 00:03:30,200 --> 00:03:33,040 Speaker 1: fact that in a sense, we shouldn't be surprised that 54 00:03:33,440 --> 00:03:37,560 Speaker 1: authoritarian states, which may have good relations with liberal democracies, 55 00:03:37,600 --> 00:03:40,800 Speaker 1: nevertheless result to what we would call spying or foreign interference. 56 00:03:41,400 --> 00:03:43,960 Speaker 1: The reason being is that for an authoritarian state, if 57 00:03:43,960 --> 00:03:47,160 Speaker 1: we put ourselves in their shoes, they haven't really got 58 00:03:47,200 --> 00:03:50,360 Speaker 1: an attractive political model. That is to say, they can't 59 00:03:50,560 --> 00:03:55,240 Speaker 1: exert influence through legitimate means, no one's really queuing up 60 00:03:55,480 --> 00:03:59,400 Speaker 1: to emulate the one party state in New Zealand. Few 61 00:03:59,440 --> 00:04:04,520 Speaker 1: New Zealand, whatever their qualms about our democracy, see China's 62 00:04:04,520 --> 00:04:09,200 Speaker 1: one party state or Russia's Putin regime as attractive alternatives, 63 00:04:09,600 --> 00:04:12,880 Speaker 1: and the same goes for the clerical regime in Iran. 64 00:04:13,640 --> 00:04:17,960 Speaker 1: So given that reality that many authoritarian states are short 65 00:04:18,000 --> 00:04:23,560 Speaker 1: of tools to influence opinion legitimately, they often resort to 66 00:04:23,760 --> 00:04:28,080 Speaker 1: covert means. And one way of, if you like, trying 67 00:04:28,080 --> 00:04:33,200 Speaker 1: to influence societies is through despora communities, and that certainly 68 00:04:33,240 --> 00:04:36,640 Speaker 1: is the case I think. Mike Burgess also referred to 69 00:04:36,680 --> 00:04:39,640 Speaker 1: the fact that friendly countries or countries which share our 70 00:04:39,680 --> 00:04:44,560 Speaker 1: political values, also engage in foreign interference. One of the 71 00:04:44,560 --> 00:04:48,800 Speaker 1: most I suppose important examples in New Zealand's history was 72 00:04:48,880 --> 00:04:52,359 Speaker 1: the case when two French intelligence agents in nineteen eighty 73 00:04:52,360 --> 00:04:56,799 Speaker 1: five were responsible for sinking the Greenpeace ship the Rainbow Warrior, 74 00:04:56,960 --> 00:05:00,440 Speaker 1: at the port of Auckland, which was going to pot 75 00:05:00,440 --> 00:05:04,320 Speaker 1: in a protest against a planned French nuclear deal at Morella, 76 00:05:04,760 --> 00:05:07,799 Speaker 1: and in the process a photographer was killed on the ship. 77 00:05:11,240 --> 00:05:15,840 Speaker 4: The second explosion trapped Fernando Perrier. You drown. At first, 78 00:05:16,040 --> 00:05:19,160 Speaker 4: nobody was sure what had caused the huge blasts, nor 79 00:05:19,279 --> 00:05:22,839 Speaker 4: if anyone was missing. By dawn, police have proof the 80 00:05:22,920 --> 00:05:26,200 Speaker 4: explosions were no accident, and New Zealand's first case of 81 00:05:26,279 --> 00:05:28,920 Speaker 4: terrorism quickly becomes its biggest ever inquiry. 82 00:05:29,160 --> 00:05:33,080 Speaker 1: President Mitterrand's government was subsequently obliged to publicly apologize for 83 00:05:33,200 --> 00:05:37,120 Speaker 1: this act of state sponsored terrorism and paid reparations to 84 00:05:37,160 --> 00:05:40,560 Speaker 1: New Zealand and the family of the photographer killed, as 85 00:05:40,560 --> 00:05:44,000 Speaker 1: well as Greenpeace. So you can get if you like, 86 00:05:44,240 --> 00:05:50,080 Speaker 1: foreign interference, spying, covert activities from friends as well as 87 00:05:50,240 --> 00:05:53,400 Speaker 1: countries which we may be more suspicious of, which don't 88 00:05:53,400 --> 00:05:54,800 Speaker 1: share our political values. 89 00:05:55,080 --> 00:05:59,359 Speaker 2: Now Australia is obviously our closest neighbor, How likely is 90 00:05:59,400 --> 00:06:01,400 Speaker 2: it that being targeted as well? 91 00:06:01,440 --> 00:06:02,679 Speaker 4: Now that way, I think. 92 00:06:02,480 --> 00:06:08,360 Speaker 1: That's tiny lightly given the intensification of superpower rivalry involving 93 00:06:08,760 --> 00:06:13,040 Speaker 1: China and the United States, which has really significantly increased 94 00:06:13,080 --> 00:06:16,640 Speaker 1: in the last decade, and both China and the United 95 00:06:16,680 --> 00:06:21,440 Speaker 1: States are hoping to influence Australia and New Zealand indirections 96 00:06:21,720 --> 00:06:25,160 Speaker 1: that they see as good outcomes. What is more, one 97 00:06:25,200 --> 00:06:27,680 Speaker 1: of the reasons New Zealand, as well as Australia have 98 00:06:27,760 --> 00:06:32,039 Speaker 1: become targets is because of our geographical location in the 99 00:06:32,080 --> 00:06:36,320 Speaker 1: Indo Pacific region. The Indo Pacific has emerged as the 100 00:06:36,320 --> 00:06:39,880 Speaker 1: most dynamic region in the world and a major driver 101 00:06:40,040 --> 00:06:43,360 Speaker 1: of global politics. Why do we say that, Because the 102 00:06:43,360 --> 00:06:46,720 Speaker 1: Indo Pacific, our neighborhood, contains more than fifty percent of 103 00:06:46,720 --> 00:06:49,440 Speaker 1: the world's population and is home to some of the 104 00:06:49,440 --> 00:06:54,159 Speaker 1: world's fastest growing economies, including China, Vietnam and India. So 105 00:06:54,760 --> 00:06:58,599 Speaker 1: in a sense, our location has become, if you like, 106 00:06:58,839 --> 00:07:02,160 Speaker 1: the center of gravity and glowelobal politics. And of course 107 00:07:02,440 --> 00:07:05,160 Speaker 1: it's a target for a country like China, which is 108 00:07:05,240 --> 00:07:09,520 Speaker 1: located within the Indo Pacific, and also the United States, 109 00:07:09,560 --> 00:07:12,880 Speaker 1: which has a strong Pacific connection. Both of these countries 110 00:07:13,280 --> 00:07:16,400 Speaker 1: want to present themselves as the political model for the 111 00:07:16,400 --> 00:07:19,440 Speaker 1: rest of the world to follow, and naturally they're deeply 112 00:07:19,480 --> 00:07:22,800 Speaker 1: engaged in trying to influence that region. I think there's 113 00:07:22,800 --> 00:07:26,680 Speaker 1: another factor which is probably distinctive to New Zealand. It's 114 00:07:26,680 --> 00:07:30,600 Speaker 1: not just out surrounding location which makes New Zealand a target. 115 00:07:30,920 --> 00:07:35,600 Speaker 1: I think New Zealand's international profile. Chelsea has significantly increased 116 00:07:35,800 --> 00:07:39,320 Speaker 1: in the last ten years. The response of the Jasindra 117 00:07:39,520 --> 00:07:43,720 Speaker 1: Duan government to the twenty nineteen christ Church terrotrocity, and 118 00:07:43,760 --> 00:07:48,120 Speaker 1: also the way the government effectively handled the COVID nineteen pandemic. 119 00:07:48,400 --> 00:07:53,640 Speaker 1: I think captured international attention and certainly I think change 120 00:07:53,760 --> 00:07:58,120 Speaker 1: international perceptions to some degree of New Zealand increasingly. Although 121 00:07:58,120 --> 00:08:00,640 Speaker 1: we often see ourselves as a small country or a 122 00:08:00,680 --> 00:08:03,960 Speaker 1: small state, I think others often see New Zealand as 123 00:08:04,000 --> 00:08:07,840 Speaker 1: a minor power, a country which is relatively small or 124 00:08:07,880 --> 00:08:12,760 Speaker 1: modest in size, but nevertheless quite influential internationally and often 125 00:08:12,800 --> 00:08:15,760 Speaker 1: seen as a good international citizen. That in turn, the 126 00:08:15,800 --> 00:08:19,240 Speaker 1: fact that New Zine's profile has grown will also be 127 00:08:19,360 --> 00:08:23,200 Speaker 1: if you're like a source of attraction for ambitious outside power. 128 00:08:33,280 --> 00:08:35,840 Speaker 2: So being friends with the New Zealand being friends with 129 00:08:35,960 --> 00:08:38,600 Speaker 2: us will get you a bit better pr on the 130 00:08:38,600 --> 00:08:39,120 Speaker 2: world map. 131 00:08:39,320 --> 00:08:42,360 Speaker 1: Being friends with US is seen as a potentially positive thing. 132 00:08:42,520 --> 00:08:46,480 Speaker 1: This country has very close people to people relations with 133 00:08:46,559 --> 00:08:49,880 Speaker 1: the Pacific Island States, and that's a region which has 134 00:08:49,960 --> 00:08:54,760 Speaker 1: also been subject to increasing geopolitical rivalry between China, New 135 00:08:54,840 --> 00:08:58,800 Speaker 1: Zealand's largest trading partner, and the United States and its allies. 136 00:08:58,840 --> 00:09:02,839 Speaker 1: So in a sense, New Zealand's connections, particularly its close 137 00:09:02,880 --> 00:09:07,040 Speaker 1: connections with the Pacific Island states also mean that it's 138 00:09:07,080 --> 00:09:10,160 Speaker 1: a target. So, just to recap, New Zealand has grown 139 00:09:10,440 --> 00:09:14,000 Speaker 1: in terms of its international profile and reputation, but in addition, 140 00:09:14,440 --> 00:09:19,120 Speaker 1: as rivalry intensifies around the Pacific Island States between the 141 00:09:19,160 --> 00:09:22,320 Speaker 1: United States and China, New Zealand in their eyes, becomes 142 00:09:22,360 --> 00:09:23,040 Speaker 1: more important. 143 00:09:23,440 --> 00:09:26,240 Speaker 2: A report last year pointed the finger at China for 144 00:09:26,240 --> 00:09:27,880 Speaker 2: foreign interference here. 145 00:09:29,480 --> 00:09:32,160 Speaker 5: It's prompted calls for an inquiry from a group of 146 00:09:32,280 --> 00:09:35,880 Speaker 5: MPs from all sides of Parliament called the inter Parliamentary 147 00:09:35,920 --> 00:09:38,760 Speaker 5: Alliance on China. In a letter to the Foreign Affairs 148 00:09:38,760 --> 00:09:41,520 Speaker 5: and Trades Select Committee, the group wrote the Committee will 149 00:09:41,520 --> 00:09:45,560 Speaker 5: be aware of recent reports where serious allegations of kidnap, 150 00:09:45,679 --> 00:09:49,280 Speaker 5: assault and harassment were raised. There has been the widely 151 00:09:49,320 --> 00:09:54,080 Speaker 5: reported hacking of Parliament's own computer systems, and several MPs 152 00:09:54,160 --> 00:09:56,360 Speaker 5: and an academic also target it. 153 00:09:58,760 --> 00:10:01,880 Speaker 2: When we are so alive, mined with China often framed 154 00:10:01,960 --> 00:10:04,120 Speaker 2: as a detriment to us. Why would they be trying 155 00:10:04,160 --> 00:10:06,720 Speaker 2: to interfere? Is it because of our position in the 156 00:10:06,720 --> 00:10:07,480 Speaker 2: Indo Pacific? 157 00:10:07,880 --> 00:10:11,439 Speaker 1: Yes, I'm not sure we're aligned with China. China's our 158 00:10:11,440 --> 00:10:15,040 Speaker 1: biggest trade partner in economic terms, it's the number one 159 00:10:15,080 --> 00:10:18,880 Speaker 1: destination for our exports. But we're not politically aligned with China, 160 00:10:19,120 --> 00:10:23,679 Speaker 1: and we are not prepared for economic reasons to dumb 161 00:10:23,720 --> 00:10:27,320 Speaker 1: down our commitment to democracy or human rights. So in 162 00:10:27,360 --> 00:10:30,480 Speaker 1: a sense, there are limits to how politically close the 163 00:10:30,520 --> 00:10:34,120 Speaker 1: two countries can become. We have a very different worldview 164 00:10:34,200 --> 00:10:38,320 Speaker 1: from China and a very different political system. So I mean, 165 00:10:38,360 --> 00:10:41,959 Speaker 1: I think it's an important point to establish, why would 166 00:10:42,040 --> 00:10:46,200 Speaker 1: China seek to if you influence what has been a 167 00:10:46,240 --> 00:10:49,520 Speaker 1: close trading partner for it For the reasons we've gone through, 168 00:10:49,720 --> 00:10:53,600 Speaker 1: China's very interested in the Pacific Island States and would like, 169 00:10:53,760 --> 00:10:57,640 Speaker 1: I think, to influence the direction of New Zealand's policy. 170 00:10:58,080 --> 00:11:01,800 Speaker 1: And also, since twenty twenty one, since the formation of 171 00:11:01,840 --> 00:11:07,040 Speaker 1: an Enhanced Security partnership called ORCUS, which involves the United States, 172 00:11:07,080 --> 00:11:11,000 Speaker 1: the UK and Australia, China has become, in its own words, 173 00:11:11,000 --> 00:11:14,680 Speaker 1: increasingly gravely concerned. These words that were used by the 174 00:11:14,840 --> 00:11:19,320 Speaker 1: Chinese ambassador to this country about New Zeine's potential for 175 00:11:19,480 --> 00:11:23,600 Speaker 1: joining what's called Pillar two of ORCUS. I should explain 176 00:11:23,679 --> 00:11:28,560 Speaker 1: that this enhanced security arrangement between three English speaking countries, 177 00:11:28,880 --> 00:11:30,320 Speaker 1: we're not a member of it at the moment, but 178 00:11:30,360 --> 00:11:34,240 Speaker 1: we're considering becoming an associate member or a partial member. 179 00:11:34,760 --> 00:11:38,079 Speaker 1: And it consists of two key elements. One is the 180 00:11:38,559 --> 00:11:42,800 Speaker 1: transfer of nuclear power submarines to Australia. The second key element, 181 00:11:42,840 --> 00:11:45,880 Speaker 1: which we're interested in possibly joining, we haven't made a 182 00:11:45,920 --> 00:11:51,680 Speaker 1: definite decision yet, is the component, which involves sharing state 183 00:11:51,760 --> 00:11:55,720 Speaker 1: of the art defense technology. China is very keen or 184 00:11:55,800 --> 00:11:59,440 Speaker 1: is it indicated it does not want New Zealand to 185 00:11:59,559 --> 00:12:05,439 Speaker 1: join the Aucus arrangement? Why? Because AUCUS is primarily designed 186 00:12:05,679 --> 00:12:10,480 Speaker 1: to deter China and to contain China, and so China 187 00:12:10,559 --> 00:12:13,640 Speaker 1: quite naturally would rather that New Zealand doesn't join it. 188 00:12:13,880 --> 00:12:17,839 Speaker 2: There are also reports that Iran and Russia are interfering here. 189 00:12:17,960 --> 00:12:20,880 Speaker 2: Is that perhaps not surprising given the tensions around the world. 190 00:12:21,040 --> 00:12:25,079 Speaker 1: It's not surprising given the fact that New Zealand, if 191 00:12:25,120 --> 00:12:27,600 Speaker 1: you take the case of Russia, New Zealand has been 192 00:12:27,720 --> 00:12:31,600 Speaker 1: very clear in its support for the Ukrainian government's attempt 193 00:12:31,840 --> 00:12:38,079 Speaker 1: to reverse the illegal invasion of Ukraine by Russia in 194 00:12:38,160 --> 00:12:42,160 Speaker 1: February twenty twenty two. Now that attempt at annexation has 195 00:12:42,160 --> 00:12:46,360 Speaker 1: not yet succeeded, Russia controls about twenty percent of the 196 00:12:46,440 --> 00:12:50,280 Speaker 1: territory of Ukraine, which is completely illegal under international law, 197 00:12:50,360 --> 00:12:53,400 Speaker 1: and New Zealand quite rightly has a big stake in 198 00:12:53,480 --> 00:12:57,120 Speaker 1: doing its best to ensure that Ukraine is successful in 199 00:12:57,160 --> 00:13:01,320 Speaker 1: defeating this attempted invasion of its country. After all, we 200 00:13:01,440 --> 00:13:03,480 Speaker 1: trade with more than one hundred countries around the world. 201 00:13:03,720 --> 00:13:06,920 Speaker 1: We depend on what's called a rules based international order. 202 00:13:07,240 --> 00:13:09,960 Speaker 1: That is, we like international relations to be done according 203 00:13:09,960 --> 00:13:14,320 Speaker 1: to established rules, laws and norms rather than being sort 204 00:13:14,320 --> 00:13:17,120 Speaker 1: of free for all based on power. So we have 205 00:13:17,160 --> 00:13:19,680 Speaker 1: a big state and that would mean in turn that 206 00:13:19,760 --> 00:13:24,160 Speaker 1: Russia may have an incentive to engage in interference to 207 00:13:24,200 --> 00:13:28,520 Speaker 1: try to influence things in this country. With respect to Iran, 208 00:13:28,960 --> 00:13:33,000 Speaker 1: we are one of the countries that is engaged. I 209 00:13:33,080 --> 00:13:37,880 Speaker 1: think we sent a deployment of six NZDF personnel there 210 00:13:37,920 --> 00:13:40,880 Speaker 1: are all intelligence officers. The decision was made in January 211 00:13:40,880 --> 00:13:44,920 Speaker 1: of this year to participate in a US led coalition 212 00:13:45,520 --> 00:13:50,920 Speaker 1: which is seeking to counter the illegal tax on civilian 213 00:13:51,000 --> 00:13:55,160 Speaker 1: shipping in the Red Sea by Hooti rebels which are 214 00:13:55,240 --> 00:13:58,480 Speaker 1: aligned to Iran. So from Iran's point of view, that 215 00:13:58,600 --> 00:14:02,240 Speaker 1: may be a reason that they've become discontented with the 216 00:14:02,240 --> 00:14:05,400 Speaker 1: direction of New Zealand's foreign policy, it may be seen 217 00:14:05,640 --> 00:14:08,680 Speaker 1: as contrary or aligned in a way which is seen 218 00:14:08,800 --> 00:14:14,720 Speaker 1: as potentially provocative to Iranian decision makers. So sometimes foreign 219 00:14:14,800 --> 00:14:19,640 Speaker 1: interference happens anyway, even between friendly countries, and sometimes it's 220 00:14:19,640 --> 00:14:23,640 Speaker 1: motivated by trying to influence or change the direction of 221 00:14:23,680 --> 00:14:24,960 Speaker 1: a country's foreign policy. 222 00:14:27,760 --> 00:14:30,960 Speaker 6: We're sending our defense force personnel following a request. 223 00:14:31,160 --> 00:14:34,600 Speaker 1: We were asked by our American partners whether we were 224 00:14:34,640 --> 00:14:37,000 Speaker 1: consider sending us some support there that who. 225 00:14:36,920 --> 00:14:39,680 Speaker 6: They attacks are in response to the ongoing war and Gaza. 226 00:14:39,760 --> 00:14:42,480 Speaker 6: But our Prime Minister doesn't believe our military action against 227 00:14:42,520 --> 00:14:45,800 Speaker 6: the Huthies should be LinkedIn anyways the atrocities in Gaza. 228 00:14:46,360 --> 00:14:47,600 Speaker 1: I have to say to you, I think you are 229 00:14:47,680 --> 00:14:50,040 Speaker 1: absolutely wrong to conflate those two issues. 230 00:14:53,720 --> 00:14:57,200 Speaker 2: Do you think New Zealand is capable of combating interference? 231 00:14:57,520 --> 00:14:57,680 Speaker 4: Oh? 232 00:14:57,760 --> 00:14:59,480 Speaker 1: Yes, I mean, you know, we've got to keep this 233 00:14:59,520 --> 00:15:02,640 Speaker 1: in perspective in the sense you know, New Zealand has 234 00:15:02,680 --> 00:15:07,800 Speaker 1: many strengths. It's got an open, pretty honest, transparent liberal democracy. 235 00:15:08,320 --> 00:15:11,080 Speaker 1: We are consistently ranked in the top three of the 236 00:15:11,080 --> 00:15:14,040 Speaker 1: world as being the most honest countries in the world 237 00:15:14,080 --> 00:15:17,960 Speaker 1: according to Transparency International and that of course makes us 238 00:15:17,960 --> 00:15:23,080 Speaker 1: slightly vulnerable to interference by authoritarian states which don't hesitate, 239 00:15:23,120 --> 00:15:26,240 Speaker 1: of course, to use the freedoms of this country to 240 00:15:26,400 --> 00:15:29,600 Speaker 1: project their interest when we cannot do the same in 241 00:15:29,640 --> 00:15:32,720 Speaker 1: their societies. So it's a sort of one way advantage 242 00:15:32,720 --> 00:15:36,040 Speaker 1: which they seek to exploit, and they certainly get involved 243 00:15:36,080 --> 00:15:39,120 Speaker 1: in our social filia. But there are ways in which 244 00:15:39,760 --> 00:15:44,400 Speaker 1: New Zealand can, if you like, enhance its situation. I 245 00:15:44,400 --> 00:15:47,040 Speaker 1: think first of all, New Zealand needs to clearly signal 246 00:15:47,200 --> 00:15:50,280 Speaker 1: that it's going to end it's under investment in the 247 00:15:50,680 --> 00:15:54,040 Speaker 1: what I call the defense sector of this country. On average, 248 00:15:54,040 --> 00:15:56,760 Speaker 1: in the last two decades we spent about one percent 249 00:15:57,080 --> 00:16:01,400 Speaker 1: of GDP on defense and intelligence. I think that needs 250 00:16:01,440 --> 00:16:04,280 Speaker 1: to be boosted to about one point seven percent, and 251 00:16:04,320 --> 00:16:06,480 Speaker 1: it needs to be done quite quickly. That would be 252 00:16:06,520 --> 00:16:10,480 Speaker 1: a statement of intent that we're not only a liberal 253 00:16:10,520 --> 00:16:14,800 Speaker 1: tolerance society, but we're quite prepared to invest to ensure 254 00:16:14,840 --> 00:16:18,400 Speaker 1: that it remains that way. I think also there are 255 00:16:18,400 --> 00:16:22,200 Speaker 1: other things we can do through diplomacy that helps to 256 00:16:22,280 --> 00:16:26,280 Speaker 1: make us, if you're like, less vulnerable to foreign interference. 257 00:16:26,680 --> 00:16:29,400 Speaker 1: We've already mentioned one which the government has been doing, 258 00:16:29,560 --> 00:16:33,960 Speaker 1: which is recognizing the strategic linkage between helping defeat Putin's 259 00:16:34,000 --> 00:16:39,120 Speaker 1: illegal invasion of Ukraine and also deterring Chinese assertiveness in 260 00:16:39,160 --> 00:16:42,400 Speaker 1: the Indo Pacific. See, there is a strategic connection there 261 00:16:42,720 --> 00:16:45,800 Speaker 1: which many people miss. Many people look at the Battle 262 00:16:45,800 --> 00:16:48,680 Speaker 1: of Ukraine and say, ah, it's so far away from us. 263 00:16:48,880 --> 00:16:52,120 Speaker 1: We really empathize with the Ukrainians, but it's too far 264 00:16:52,160 --> 00:16:55,400 Speaker 1: away from us. Actually, two of the key players in 265 00:16:55,440 --> 00:17:00,160 Speaker 1: the Ukraine War which are tacitly indirectly helping Russia well 266 00:17:00,200 --> 00:17:03,200 Speaker 1: in our neighborhood Indo Pacific. One is China, which is 267 00:17:03,240 --> 00:17:07,920 Speaker 1: providing indirect assistance to Russia, and the second is India, 268 00:17:07,960 --> 00:17:10,760 Speaker 1: another country we want to free trade with. Now, if 269 00:17:10,760 --> 00:17:13,399 Speaker 1: we want to send a clear message to both China 270 00:17:13,440 --> 00:17:17,879 Speaker 1: and India for their ambiguity and indeed support for the 271 00:17:17,880 --> 00:17:22,520 Speaker 1: Putin's regimes invasion of Ukraine, then we need to do 272 00:17:22,560 --> 00:17:25,840 Speaker 1: what we can to support Ukraine. That sends a clear message. 273 00:17:25,960 --> 00:17:28,440 Speaker 1: I mean, make no mistake about it. If Putin fails 274 00:17:28,720 --> 00:17:31,320 Speaker 1: in Ukraine, and I don't think that can be ruled out, 275 00:17:31,600 --> 00:17:35,320 Speaker 1: that will register quite significantly in Beijing, and it will 276 00:17:35,320 --> 00:17:38,199 Speaker 1: send the message. I think that China will have to 277 00:17:38,240 --> 00:17:42,119 Speaker 1: be much less assertive on the international stage, particularly in 278 00:17:42,119 --> 00:17:46,520 Speaker 1: relation to Taiwan, because the country which has tacitly supported 279 00:17:46,720 --> 00:17:49,919 Speaker 1: has failed through the If you like the assertion of power, 280 00:17:49,960 --> 00:17:53,159 Speaker 1: and I think it's also important that New Zealand sends 281 00:17:53,160 --> 00:17:57,800 Speaker 1: a message to allies which are undermining the fabric of 282 00:17:57,840 --> 00:18:01,560 Speaker 1: the international rules based order. It's important, for example, that 283 00:18:01,680 --> 00:18:05,480 Speaker 1: New Zealand speak out when allies like the United States 284 00:18:05,520 --> 00:18:09,639 Speaker 1: are complicited in the undermining of international law in barbaric 285 00:18:09,720 --> 00:18:13,639 Speaker 1: conflicts such as in Gaza, where close to forty thousand 286 00:18:13,640 --> 00:18:17,119 Speaker 1: Palestinians have died, and at least fifteen thousand of those 287 00:18:17,320 --> 00:18:21,320 Speaker 1: Palestinians have been children, which by definition have nothing to 288 00:18:21,359 --> 00:18:24,159 Speaker 1: do with the original Hamas attack on the seventh of 289 00:18:24,160 --> 00:18:28,639 Speaker 1: October which prompted this massive and disproportionate response from Israel. 290 00:18:29,359 --> 00:18:36,720 Speaker 2: Thanks for joining us, Robert. That's it for this episode 291 00:18:36,760 --> 00:18:39,640 Speaker 2: of the Front Page. You can read more about today's 292 00:18:39,680 --> 00:18:43,240 Speaker 2: stories and extensive news coverage at enzet Herald dot co 293 00:18:43,480 --> 00:18:47,080 Speaker 2: dot nz. The Front Page is produced by Ethan Sills 294 00:18:47,160 --> 00:18:52,000 Speaker 2: with sound engineer Patty Fox. I'm Chelsea Daniels. Subscribe to 295 00:18:52,000 --> 00:18:54,639 Speaker 2: the Front Page on iHeartRadio or wherever you get your 296 00:18:54,680 --> 00:18:59,040 Speaker 2: podcasts and tune in tomorrow for another look behind the headlines.